Monk Archetype Combinations

[Ashanderai]

Well, I went ahead and did the research for reasons of my own and figured I could share with the rest of the class. Below is a list of all the possible combinations of archetypes that are possible with the various archetypes for the monk class. I have written them in alphabetical order to make finding a particular combination easier.

Also, please note that, as of this posting, the sensei archetype is in need of errata. The sensei archetype states that it's Mystic Wisdom ability replaces the monk's 6th, 12th, and 18th level bonus feats; however, the monk does not have a 12th level feat, though he does have 10th and 14th level feats. For the purposes of this list, I considered the 10th and 14th level bonus feats replaced and no ability from 12th level being replaced. This may result in this list being in need of editing when an errata comes down regarding the sensei archetype.

2 Archetypes
Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles
Drunken Master/Monk of the Four Winds
Drunken Master/Monk of the Lotus
Drunken Master/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Drunken Master/Qinggong Monk
Drunken Master/Sensei
Drunken Master/Weapon Adept
Flowing Monk/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Flowing Monk/Qinggong Monk
Hungry Ghost Monk/Master of Many Styles
Hungry Ghost Monk/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Hungry Ghost Monk/Qinggong Monk
Hungry Ghost Monk/Sensei
Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Four Winds
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Lotus
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Ki Mystic/Qinggong Monk
Ki Mystic/Sensei
Ki Mystic/Weapon Adept
Maneuver Master/Monk of the Four Winds
Maneuver Master/Qinggong Monk
Maneuver Master/Weapon Adept
Martial Artist/Qinggong Monk
Martial Artist/Sensei
Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Lotus
Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Master of Many Styles/Qinggong Monk
Master of Many Styles/Sohei
Monk of the Empty Hand/Monk of the Four Winds
Monk of the Empty Hand/Monk of the Lotus
Monk of the Empty Hand/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Monk of the Empty Hand/Qinggong Monk
Monk of the Empty Hand/Weapon Adept
Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Monk of the Four Winds/Qinggong Monk
Monk of the Four Winds/Sensei
Monk of the Healing Hand/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Monk of the Healing Hand/Qinggong Monk
Monk of the Healing Hand/Sensei
Monk of the Healing Hand/Tetori
Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk
Monk of the Lotus/Sensei
Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Qinggong Monk/Sohei
Qinggong Monk/Tetori
Qinggong Monk/Weapon Adept
Qinggong Monk/Zen Archer
Sensei/Sohei

3 Archetypes
Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Lotus
Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles/Qinggong Monk
Drunken Master/Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Drunken Master/Monk of the Four Winds/Qinggong Monk
Drunken Master/Monk of the Four Winds/Sensei
Drunken Master/Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk
Drunken Master/Monk of the Lotus/Sensei
Drunken Master/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Drunken Master/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Drunken Master/Qinggong Monk/Weapon Adept
Flowing Monk/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Hungry Ghost Monk/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Hungry Ghost Monk/Master of Many Styles/Qinggong Monk
Hungry Ghost Monk/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Hungry Ghost Monk/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Lotus
Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles/Qinggong Monk
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Four Winds/Qinggong Monk
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Four Winds/Sensei
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Lotus/Sensei
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Ki Mystic/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Ki Mystic/Qinggong Monk/Weapon Adept
Maneuver Master/Monk of the Four Winds/Qinggong Monk
Maneuver Master/Qinggong Monk/Weapon Adept
Martial Artist/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk
Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Master of Many Styles/Qinggong Monk/Sohei
Monk of the Empty Hand/Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Monk of the Empty Hand/Monk of the Four Winds/Qinggong Monk
Monk of the Empty Hand/Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk
Monk of the Empty Hand/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Monk of the Empty Hand/Qinggong Monk/Weapon Adept
Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Monk of the Four Winds/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Monk of the Healing Hand/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Monk of the Healing Hand/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Qinggong Monk/Sensei/Sohei

4 Archetypes
Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk
Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Drunken Master/Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Drunken Master/Monk of the Four Winds/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Drunken Master/Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Hungry Ghost Monk/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk
Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Four Winds/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Monk of the Empty Hand/Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk

[spalding]

The Qinggong/ Martial artist really isn't going to work... after all Qinggong requires a ki pool to work and the martial artist doesn't have a ki pool.

So while you could technically take both... there is no reason to do so.

[Maxximilius]

Abraham spalding wrote:

The Qinggong/ Martial artist really isn't going to work... after all Qinggong requires a ki pool to work and the martial artist doesn't have a ki pool.

So while you could technically take both... there is no reason to do so.

And suddenly, Ninja levels make your day !

[AvalonXQ]

You could greatly shrink this list if you consolidate all the two's and three's that are also found on the four list.

I was also looking to see if I couldn't increase value by using a list with levels of indentation. It would be convenient for knowing what options are left based on options chosen, but longer.

[Abraham spalding]

Maxximilius wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

The Qinggong/ Martial artist really isn't going to work... after all Qinggong requires a ki pool to work and the martial artist doesn't have a ki pool.

So while you could technically take both... there is no reason to do so.

And suddenly, Ninja levels make your day !

Which is of course not a combination of archetypes but another completely different class.

Though it is slightly sad you can't combined ki mystic with martial artist... probably for the best though ;D

[Maxximilius]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Which is of course not a combination of archetypes but another completely different class.

Note I never said ninja was a monk archetype, and that you probably understood my sentence as an exemple of way to get a Ki pool from another source than monk levels.

[Abraham spalding]

Of course, but the idea of the thread was monk archetype stacking so... it didn't seem to fit the idea to me.

[AvalonXQ]

Condensed List:

Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk
Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Drunken Master/Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Drunken Master/Monk of the Four Winds/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Drunken Master/Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Drunken Master/Qinggong Monk/Weapon Adept
Flowing Monk/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Hungry Ghost Monk/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Hungry Ghost Monk/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk
Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Four Winds/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Ki Mystic/Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Ki Mystic/Qinggong Monk/Weapon Adept
Maneuver Master/Monk of the Four Winds/Qinggong Monk
Maneuver Master/Qinggong Monk/Weapon Adept
Martial Artist/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Master of Many Styles/Qinggong Monk/Sohei
Monk of the Empty Hand/Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Monk of the Empty Hand/Monk of the Lotus/Qinggong Monk
Monk of the Empty Hand/Qinggong Monk/Weapon Adept
Monk of the Healing Hand/Monk of the Sacred Mountain/Qinggong Monk
Monk of the Healing Hand/Qinggong Monk/Sensei
Monk of the Healing Hand/Tetori
Qinggong Monk/Sensei/Sohei
Qinggong Monk/Tetori
Qinggong Monk/Zen Archer

[j b 200]

Obviously it hasn't been updated with any of the new UC archetypes yet, but the PFSRD has a table at the bottom of each base class with the archetypes, so you can clearly see how each would overlap with each other.
I've found it very useful especially with many classes having close to 10 archetypes now.

[LoreKeeper]

Great job Ashanderai and AvalonXQ

[Robb Smith]

LoreKeeper wrote:

Great job Ashanderai and AvalonXQ

Agreed, thank you very much for this, gets very tedious going from book-to-book.

[Name Violation]

Abraham spalding wrote:

The Qinggong/ Martial artist really isn't going to work... after all Qinggong requires a ki pool to work and the martial artist doesn't have a ki pool.

So while you could technically take both... there is no reason to do so.

Activation: Most ki powers require the monk to spend ki points; the exact amount is listed after the ki power. Ki powers that cost 0 ki do not require the monk to have any ki points in her ki pool to use the ability.

also since martial artist still has abundant step and no ki points, may as well trade it out

edit: so you could have "share memory" at will, since thats the only one that works

[Epic Meepo]

Very Condensed List:

Qinggong Monk plus...
...[Drunken Master -or- Ki Mystic] / Master of Many Styles / [Monk of the Lotus -or- Monk of the Sacred Mountain]
...[Drunken Master -or- Ki Mystic] / Monk of the Four Winds / [Monk of the Sacred Mountain -or- Sensei]
...[Drunken Master -or- Ki Mystic] / Monk of the Lotus / Sensei
...[Drunken Master -or- Ki Mystic] / Weapon Adept
...Flowing Monk / Monk of the Sacred Mountain
...Hungry Ghost Monk / Master of Many Styles / Monk of the Sacred Mountain
...[Hungry Ghost Monk -or- Martial Artist] / Sensei
...Maneuver Master / [Monk of the Four Winds -or- Weapon Adept]
...[Master of Many Styles -or- Sensei] / Sohei
...Monk of the Empty Hand / Monk of the Four Winds / Monk of the Sacred Mountain
...Monk of the Empty Hand / [Monk of the Lotus -or- Weapon Adept]
...Monk of the Healing Hand / [Monk of the Sacred Mountain -or- Sensei -or- Tetori]
...Zen Archer

[Abraham spalding]

Name Violation wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

The Qinggong/ Martial artist really isn't going to work... after all Qinggong requires a ki pool to work and the martial artist doesn't have a ki pool.

So while you could technically take both... there is no reason to do so.

Activation: Most ki powers require the monk to spend ki points; the exact amount is listed after the ki power. Ki powers that cost 0 ki do not require the monk to have any ki points in her ki pool to use the ability.

also since martial artist still has abundant step and no ki points, may as well trade it out

edit: so you could have "share memory" at will, since thats the only one that works

However you still have to have a ki pool -- which you don't.

It's not like you have one and it is empty -- you don't have one period.

[Amgal]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Name Violation wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

The Qinggong/ Martial artist really isn't going to work... after all Qinggong requires a ki pool to work and the martial artist doesn't have a ki pool.

So while you could technically take both... there is no reason to do so.

Activation: Most ki powers require the monk to spend ki points; the exact amount is listed after the ki power. Ki powers that cost 0 ki do not require the monk to have any ki points in her ki pool to use the ability.

also since martial artist still has abundant step and no ki points, may as well trade it out

edit: so you could have "share memory" at will, since thats the only one that works

However you still have to have a ki pool -- which you don't.

It's not like you have one and it is empty -- you don't have one period.

Could trade abundant step for diamond body.

[lostpike]

Are there any other classes where you can take 2+ archtypes?

[Robb Smith]

lostpike wrote:

Are there any other classes where you can take 2+ archtypes?

Yes, quite a bit of classes can take multiple archetypes. Basically, the more class abilities they have, the more likely they are to be able to fit more than one in.

[Ravennus]

I just wanted to Ashanderai for this thread. It's been very helpful. :)

[Merck]

Dotted

[xebeche]

Sorry for my ignorance, but do the archetype levels stack for the purpose of determining shared monk abilities, such as unarmed damage, BAB, and saves?

Edit: After several minutes of research, I found my answer:

Quote:

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.

It would seem that archetypes, regardless of how many you might have, do not change the fact that you are, say, a Monk. An archetype seems to simply swap out certain class abilities. My assumption that at 1st level the Flowing Monk archetype were selected and that at 2nd level the Monk of the Sacred Mountain archetype were to be selected is false. A Monk may possess both archetypes at 1st level.

[Darksmokepuncher]

Dot. Thanks for doing this work for me. 8)

[Caedwyr]

j b 200 wrote:

Obviously it hasn't been updated with any of the new UC archetypes yet, but the PFSRD has a table at the bottom of each base class with the archetypes, so you can clearly see how each would overlap with each other.

I've found it very useful especially with many classes having close to 10 archetypes now.

All the UC archetypes have now been added to the tables.

[Bomanz]

Am I just misunderstanding, or can you really be a Qingong archetype with Master of Many Styles, or Ki Master?

I use HeroLabs specifically, and it won't let me add them, plus there are some overlapping monk abilities that are in common, so I didnt think you could?

I guess the argument is that you don't HAVE to swap the standard ones that get replaced by the Master of the Four Winds Archetype, and therefore you can take the Qingong archetype as well....I think?

Some clarification please.

[xebeche]

Bomanz wrote:

Am I just misunderstanding, or can you really be a Qingong archetype with Master of Many Styles, or Ki Master?

...

I guess the argument is that you don't HAVE to swap the standard ones that get replaced by the Master of the Four Winds Archetype, and therefore you can take the Qingong archetype as well....I think?

You can combine the Qinggong Monk archetype with any other monk archetype because it explicitly states, "A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following." You don't have to replace an ability, but you have the option. I'm confused about your statement regarding the Master of Four Winds. Do you mean Monk of Four Winds or Master of Many Styles? Regardless, when an archetype states, "This ability replaces ..." then you HAVE to replace. A Qinggong monk is one of the few exceptions to this.

Bomanz wrote:

I use HeroLabs specifically, and it won't let me add them, plus there are some overlapping monk abilities that are in common, so I didnt think you could?

I don't use these tools as I assume they are not flexible enough to accommodate all Paizo character creation options. I hope I am wrong, but would be willing to bet money that I'm not.

[Vashir]

xebeche wrote:

Bomanz wrote:

Am I just misunderstanding, or can you really be a Qingong archetype with Master of Many Styles, or Ki Master?

...

I guess the argument is that you don't HAVE to swap the standard ones that get replaced by the Master of the Four Winds Archetype, and therefore you can take the Qingong archetype as well....I think?

You can combine the Qinggong Monk archetype with any other monk archetype because it explicitly states, "A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following." You don't have to replace an ability, but you have the option. I'm confused about your statement regarding the Master of Four Winds. Do you mean Monk of Four Winds or Master of Many Styles? Regardless, when an archetype states, "This ability replaces ..." then you HAVE to replace. A Qinggong monk is one of the few exceptions to this.

Bomanz wrote:

I use HeroLabs specifically, and it won't let me add them, plus there are some overlapping monk abilities that are in common, so I didnt think you could?

I don't use these tools as I assume they are not flexible enough to accommodate all Paizo character creation options. I hope I am wrong, but would be willing to bet money that I'm not.

I am very curious about this question as well. From this thread, it would seem the Qinggong Monk is compatible with Master of many Styles (MoMS), but Hero Lab won't allow it AND it seems a bit gray to me.

-Archetypes that replace the same power aren't compatible
-Master of many styles replaces Perfect Self with Perfect Style
-Qinggong Monke gives you the option to replace Perfect Self with another power, but doesn't explicitly replace it.

It's the last point that makes it gray for me. If I use Qinggong to replace Perfect Self with another ability (say Tiring Critical) does that mean that Master of Many Styles is no longer technically replacing Perfect Self (thus allowing me to combine the two). In other words, so long as I use the Quinggong template to replace Perfect Self, there is no conflict with MoMS?

I'm hoping folks with more experience than I can clarify (maybe even Paizo). I'm about to start a Jade Regent, and would hate to build such a combo only to have the GM disqualify it

[Maxximilius]

Qinggong stacks with any other archetype, but can only replace base class features noted in the qinggong archetype's description that you still possess after application of other archetypes.

[Asurako]

on the other hand, would it be legal for a martial artist to take the alternate favored class feature to gain 1/4 ki point per level in monk, thereby achieving a featureless one point ki pool by level four, opening the ability to replace or use what are two completely useless class features for him (as well as blow a feat on extra ki), and if not, is there any chance that it could get fixed? also, on the martial artist's ability to cross with sensei, WHY? JUST WHY?

[Edblake]

Hi ! Thank you everyone for this thread wich is pretty helpfull !

So, here is my question :
Qinggong can stack with all others monk's archetypes but can only replace basic monk abilities.
That's what the text says, but would it be overpowered if I'd let a player of mine make a "Qinggong Drunken Master of many styles" and replace the drunken master abilities with ki powers ?

I think no, because the drunken master is pretty fun but except his drunken ki pool, it... well, let's say it, kinda suck, IMHO.
But maybe there's some resulting combos I can't see or maybe that would be a too big transgression of the rules, finally allowing him to take only one class feature (the drunken ki pool) of an archetypes.

[Banecrow]

Very helpfull, thanks for the time you put into this.

[Starbuck_II]

Asurako wrote:

on the other hand, would it be legal for a martial artist to take the alternate favored class feature to gain 1/4 ki point per level in monk, thereby achieving a featureless one point ki pool by level four, opening the ability to replace or use what are two completely useless class features for him (as well as blow a feat on extra ki), and if not, is there any chance that it could get fixed? also, on the martial artist's ability to cross with sensei, WHY? JUST WHY?

You might as well have vows if you are doing this though.

[Name Violation]

Starbuck_II wrote:

Asurako wrote:

on the other hand, would it be legal for a martial artist to take the alternate favored class feature to gain 1/4 ki point per level in monk, thereby achieving a featureless one point ki pool by level four, opening the ability to replace or use what are two completely useless class features for him (as well as blow a feat on extra ki), and if not, is there any chance that it could get fixed? also, on the martial artist's ability to cross with sensei, WHY? JUST WHY?

You might as well have vows if you are doing this though.

actually martial artist still gets abundant steps (dim. door) but no ki points to do it with, so that would be an option to use an otherwise useless class ability

[blashimov]

This is very helpful, but I think the archetype rules are a little stricter than you seem to be using. For example, RAW, master of many styles and sohei can't be combined, because they both modify the bonus feats, even if they do so in a non-contradictory way. I think anyway.

[Ascalaphus]

Of course, combining MoMS and Sohei is an awful combination anyway, because one of the big selling points of the Sohei is to apply Flurry to Weapon Training weapons not normally flurryable, like bows. (Awesome mounted archery with Mounted Skirmisher as a bonus feat to enable full attack.)

[Gilfor]

Ok newb here <----- What is the best combination of archetype with a Monk of the Sacred Mountain. I have made a character with amazing stats and I really do not want to ruin him. He is a dwarven monk.

STR - 18
DEX - 16
CON - 18
INT - 14
WIS - 20
CHA - 10

[Drow Sorceror]

Name Violation wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

The Qinggong/ Martial artist really isn't going to work... after all Qinggong requires a ki pool to work and the martial artist doesn't have a ki pool.

So while you could technically take both... there is no reason to do so.

Activation: Most ki powers require the monk to spend ki points; the exact amount is listed after the ki power. Ki powers that cost 0 ki do not require the monk to have any ki points in her ki pool to use the ability.

also since martial artist still has abundant step and no ki points, may as well trade it out

edit: so you could have "share memory" at will, since thats the only one that works

Sadly, even this is not possible. Just because an ability does not require any Ki Points in your pool, does not mean that it does not require pool. This is adverse to the fact, as otherwise, (theoretically,) any player could utilise monk and ninja abilities, without any levels in either class.

[strayshift]

Just to say with the Qinggong Monk you want as few alternate class abilities as possible in order to give you as much design freedom of the Ki abilities as possible. Would I recommend three archetypes? How much would you in reality be able to use the Qinggong's abilities? Not much. So there is a tension here between design freedom and the number of archetypes available.

[Fastmover]

Dot