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Thanks for the helpful and constructive responses.
I was expecting more flaming, and it's encouraging that I didn't get that.

As I mentioned... I'm just now learning about the PFO project. However, I think hearing about various 'first impressions' can be really helpful.

At the moment, I think the average person has to really dig for solid information on the proposed game via forums, blogs, etc.... which I don't think is the best way to lead the Kickstarter pledge drive.

But a lot of the explanations I've read were helpful and it's good to know I misunderstood some key things.

I'll keep a keen eye on PFO, and when I get some time I'll read the backlog of blog posts to become more familiar with everything.

However, the actual Pathfinder campaign setting isn't my favourite... so if I eventually pledge, it will be to support the sandbox format and the vision of the developers.

I'm still not sure I agree with everything, but we'll see how it goes once I learn more.

Another thing which concerns me is the amount is how the developers will actually police the 'degenerates' that this type of game attracts like flies to a fresh corpse.
I've already read that they intend to fight griefers, but I can't imagine it's something easily done with a small team. It'll depend a lot more on the design, and from what I've already read... it seems to be open enough so that almost anything goes.

It also depends a lot of the definition of 'griefing'.
For me, a lot of my early release UO experience was ruined because of Player Killers who would camp the town borders and essentially make the game unplayable for people like me.
Some consider that fair game... and to suck it up and/or hire some other players to "protect" me while venturing out of town... but that's easier said than done.

We'll see...

Mbando wrote:

@Rats Archive: Thanks for posting and offering your thoughts. All of us folks here who are very invested in PFO need to be open to outside perspectives and constructive criticism, and it's clear that your criticism is meant constructively.

I think the concern you and Berik and voicing is about audience. The Kickstarter is written for a certain audience--us. That page is accessible and makes perfect sense to someone who has been following the blog and these forums, but I think it's a lot less accessible and appropriately crafted to the wider world. I'm having to translate for my friends, sending out/posting a version that is crafted to their needs (both in terms of what might interest them and their level of prior knowledge).

Yup, that's where I'm coming from. I didn't pledge for the Technology Demo... I wanted to wait and see how that looked first, and read more about GW's intention for the game.

Seems that (for me), that was a wise choice.

Either way... for GW to stand a chance in hell of raising 1M+ on kickstarter, they CAN'T just target those already in the know. No need to preach to the choir, IMO.

As someone relatively new to this, there are definite issues with the information that's available at the moment, as others have mentioned.

BTW - The video on the Kickstarter front page.... is that from the technology demo?
Is there a breakdown I can find somewhere that details what exactly GW is supposed to be showing off with it?
Because from what I've seen already... it just looks like outdated graphics and re-hashed fantasy MMO combat with Pathfinder Iconics pasted onto the models.

Is there a lot of the demo that non-backers aren't seeing?
Something that actually showcases the innovative sandbox they are aiming for?

I don't mean to sound harsh. I realize a lot of work must have gone into that demo (if that's what it is), and I also realize it's in the concept stage... but nothing I saw from that video really made me say "Wow, this is really different! I want in on this!"

I keep going between excitement and disappointment with this project, and I'm still on the fence about pledging at all.

Pathfinder MMO? SANDBOX?!?! HELL YES!!

Especially when I read the CEO's opinions on sandbox style MMOs, and why they previously failed and will make a comeback.... this really excites me.

But then I catch wind that we actually have to pay during beta... and after some research and posts by GW staff, I understand a little better.
However, it still seems a little iffy to me.
Apparently the 'beta' will last up to a couple years, with none of the progress made by players during that time erased. Sounds good.
But then they say that players who only come in during official release won't be THAT far behind.
Ummm.... really? 2 years of play time is not enough to give a significant headstart over a new player? That doesn't sound right to me. (no matter the large and diverse amount of skills, or how "broad" they are)

But ok... I think I'm almost on board....

But then I read more about the subscription and SKILL system, and how they are tied together. How it sounds like they are copying EVE, and the advancement of your character skills have NOTHING whatsoever to do with achievements in the game (which really bugs me). You just get constant training, on AND offline, depending on how much you paid.

Of course the cap seems to be the full month subscription... but then I read that there will be a market available where you can buy "training points" for in-game currency. Currency which is available through the cash shop for real money.

Hence, it SOUNDS like someone with a lot of money can just cap out on training for the month, then go to the market and buy even MORE training points until they have quickly maxed out their character.
Thus, Pay2Win, unless I'm misunderstanding (completely possible).

Finally, the thing that bugs me the most.... is that the game systems seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with the actual Pathfinder RPG rules.
No classes, completely different skill system, etc.

It sounds like 'Pathfinder' is only being licensed because the work on the world and lore is already done, and there is an established fanbase.

But otherwise it doesn't seem to actually resemble the Pathfinder RPG I love.

I may be way off base here, but these are some of the reasons I am still on the fence. I've read the blog, kickstarter, and the Paizo forums... and I'm glad I did, because the more I hear about Pathfinder Online the more nervous I become about donating.

This was the exact opposite reaction I had to things like Project Eternity and Star Citizen. The more they showed me, the more interested I became.


As for the Pay Beta, I don't really get the connection with what Paizo did with Pathfinder's development or even Minecraft.
With Pathfinder, the beta's were available free of charge... and it cost nothing to create a Paizo account post during the playtest.
Even to this day, playtests are available free of charge and contribute a lot to the final product.

Minecraft? I've never played it myself, but know many people who did during the beta... and not a single one ever paid for a copy of the game, for what it's worth.

Finally, there have been some HUGE gaming disasters recently when it comes to this ongoing 'crowd' development beta games.

Just look at what Fantasy Flight Games did with their new Star Wars RPG.
To make people go out and buy a $40 book just to PLAYTEST your game is embarrassing, and FFG has lost a lot of respect from many of the gamers at my local store.
They alienated their fans and pretty much killed any future interest in Star Wars property while it is still in their hands. Not good.

I'm not saying that GW is going that route... just be careful.

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"and I BARELY know anything about psionics"

That sums up your issue right there.

It also explains your broken (not OP, but illegal) build you are bragging about. The other minor issues can be settled as the other posters described.

I'm a huge supporter of Dreamscarred Press and their take on Psionics in Pathfinder. In fact, I generously supported their Kickstarter for their upcoming hardcover.

It didn't start that way. I was a skeptic, but then I actually made an effort to understand what the issues were.

If you actually do your homework, like me, you'll likely find little issue at all. If you still do, then you probably DO have an issue with Psionics as a theme, much like others hate firearms or anything Eastern in their "Fantasy" world.

I saw BB36's post in another thread, and it sounded like the Soulknife was able to instantly recharge their Psychic Strike without using an action.... so they were getting the Psychic Strike damage on every attack, and were likely dual-wielding.

I don't see how this is possible, as I've looked into the Soulknife... but I really haven't had a chance to dive into the books yet, so I might be missing something.

Also, from his previous posts, it sounds like the Psionic players in his game may have been using psionic rules/feats from 3.5 edition, which would cause issues I'm sure.

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Please expand on guidelines for DMs regarding WBL for newly created higher level characters and item crafting.

Specifically, by default should new characters buying equipment using the WBL guidelines be allowed to pay half-cost for items they can craft themselves, so long as they bought the required crafting feats and have the skills.

If so, is it fair to craft all their WBL items (effectively doubling WBL) or is a cap of 50% (or something similar) fair by default?

I know most DMs houserule this (mine did after I made a lvl 11 Forgemaster Cleric with most of the crafting feats), but some guidelines and explanations would be helpful.

So new mundane arms and armor, along with potential re-balancing and errata was sacrificed for.... a bunch of new magic items that are horribly designed? For better (this ring) or worse (bodywraps)?

I appreciate the effort put into this book, and I still appreciate Paizo... and now that I've had more time to read the book I know that there are /some/ well written parts... but this book is definitely a huge disappointment for me.

Actually, the writer later admitted that it WASN'T designed that way... but that he was severely restricted on word count and he would have went over if he added Disable Device as a class skill (because it would have required a supposed reprint of their class skills, which take up a few lines).

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5f0c?Bard-and-no-disable-device-as-a-class-skil l

In my group, it's one of houserules that Archeologists get Disable Device as a class skill.

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Steve Geddes wrote:
I don't think 3PP products are built from a consistent set of understandings of what the rules mean, how they should be applied and how options should be balanced. You may well end up trying to fit a tractor wheel to a Porsche.

The problem with this statement is that it applies to Paizo as well.

Hence the current debacle over the Monk's Flurry of Blows.

I love Paizo, and they are easily my favourite RPG developers to date, particularly in how close and responsive they are to the community. Unfortuntely (or fortunately!) they are human, and make mistakes, and also don't abide by a consistent set of understandings of what the rules mean.

To my knowledge, there is not a single Paizo employee or freelancer with eidetic memory and a PhD in RPG development. That's not a bad thing, but you can't expect perfection from 3PP developers anymore than you can from Paizo itself.

Personally, I've always been against 3PP stuff. For a long time, it was because I had this weird idea that 3PP was "cheating" or completely unbalanced because it was unofficial.
What changed my tune recently were the products from Dreamscarred Press. I missed the old Psionic rules and wanted them in a Pathfinder game I was thinking of running. After a lot of great reviews, I bought their Psionics supplements and was astounded at the quality and balance. In fact, I think they have the best Psionic rules to date (though I may be biased, because they actually FIXED the Soul Knife and the Aegis KICKS BUTT!!).

There are some amazing 3PP developers that have created some of their own RPG systems as well. Green Ronin comes to mind, with Mutants and Masterminds. It's fantastic if you love Superhero RPGs. :)

WRoy wrote:
Ultimate Equipment drops in six days... I wouldn't sweat the scorpion whip until then, as there's a good chance it will be updated in there.

NOT a good chance, at all, especially if you read my previous post.

Subscribers like me have had the Ultimate Equipment PDF for a while now, and trust me... Paizo did NOTHING to update any of the mundane arms and armor, nor did they add anything new.

The weapons and armor sections are literally cut and paste from previous books... this includes the scorpion whip, which has the crappy and confusing UC version ported over.

The attitude seems to be that they wanted to focus on the magic gear... but in doing so, they basically ignored the mundane stuff. They missed a GOLDEN opportunity to clean a lot of weapons up and introduce errata, but they didn't.

It would have been great if they used Ultimate Equipment as an opportunity to clear this issue up, as well as many others.

But most of the mundane gear section in the new book is just cut and paste, warts and all.

The magic item section and loot tables are better, but that's apparently at the expense of the mundane items. If they were more clear that magic items were the focus of the book, I would have cancelled my subscription... but oh well. I just look at the money they got for the Ultimate Equipment book and the character portfolio as my donation to a great company I still want to support. ;)
I thought of the Beginner Box in the same way. *shrug*

I'll take the good with the bad though. I never expected the Advanced Race Guide to be as good as it was.... that was definitely a great surprise!

blackbloodtroll wrote:

As I said, Sawtooth Sabres are, more or less, thematically the same, and easier to duel wield.

As for "bigass weapons", there is a feat to two weapon fight, with an Earthbreaker and Klar.

Earthbreaker and Klar? Ooooooh, what feat is that?

EDIT: NVM, found it! Thunder and Fang. D20PFSRD says it's from an issue of Pathfinder in 2008... is that even Pathfinder RPG legal?

3.5 Edition had a handy feat called "Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting"

http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/oversized-two-weapon-fight ing--2109/

Our group converted it for use in Pathfinder. It's not overpowered at all... in fact, the bonus to damage per attack is negligible. It's along the same lines as how most optimizers consider Exotic Weapon Proficiency to be a waste of a feat.

It's fantastic for flavor though. :)

There are no precedent for rules changes of this kind of magnitude, even in previous editions.

Hell, it's how we got 3.5 edition.

But whatever Gorb. I gave my opinion, nothing more. I wasn't claiming special insider knowledge.

BTW, I noticed you've been especially touchy lately... did a pet or relative die recently?

Gorbacz wrote:
Ravennus wrote:

Nor did we get any fixes, errata, or re-balancing.... which truthfully really shocks me.

I'd be very careful with blanket statements like that. Staff prices were fixed, from what I see in previews.

Ok, you're right again. Thanks for living on these forums 24/7 and nitpicking every word I say.

I'll amend my previous blanket statement, because I also noticed they included the errata to Brass Knuckles. Too bad there are still so many other issues left untouched.

Gorbacz wrote:
Ravennus wrote:

I truly believe that we will never see this new re-written Pathfinder Monk until Paizo releases their next edition of the Pathfinder game.

Otherwise I don't see them completely changing a class in the Core Rulebook using Errata. Sorry, just don't see it.

Yeah, they never change things oh wait Paladin smite.

Yeah, you're right! A slight adjustment to a single class feature IS TOTALLY THE SAME as rewriting an entire class.

Duh, how could I be so stupid. Gorb, you toothy bag of genius, how could I not see it?

I truly believe that we will never see this new re-written Pathfinder Monk until Paizo releases their next edition of the Pathfinder game.

Otherwise I don't see them completely changing a class in the Core Rulebook using Errata. Sorry, just don't see it.

Gorbacz wrote:

I have this strange feeling that some folks approach this book hoping for a "power-up for my PC" book, while the book is clearly more of a GM tool.

I guess part of the problem is the name, which suggests that it's in line with other "Ultimate" books. Should have called it "Gamemastery Item Guide" or whatanot.

Speaking for myself, I wasn't looking for a 'Power-Up'. This isn't Rifts, nor do I ever want it to be.

But I'll agree that I was approaching the book from a player's perspective, which left me very disappointed. I think it was fair to expect more new material than what was released in their Golarion-specific 33 page Equipment crunch book... or at least something on par. But I didn't get that.

Nor did we get any fixes, errata, or re-balancing.... which truthfully really shocks me.

It was released as part of the Ultimate line of books, which up until now have been aimed at players as much (or more so) than DMs. So maybe you are right that it should have just been released as part of the Gamemastery line.

Joyd wrote:

Does anyone have sort of a ballpark figure regarding what portion of the book is new material? Are we talking like a quarter of it, or are we talking like a half-dozen things scattered here and there?

Also, I think I already know the answer to this, but did they at least put in the bare minimum possible cleanup effort and put in a better writeup how the kyoketsu shoge is supposed to function mechanically, or did they stick to the flighty ambiguious wording it was published with in Ultimate Combat?

After reading through more of the book, I would hazard 20% actual new material in the entire book.... and that's being generous.

Though they often try to present older material in newer ways, such as in 'kits' and such, but that doesn't count to me.

Honestly, most of the newer material is simply from new magic items.... maybe 1/3 is new. That, plus tables (if you are a DM who is into that sort of thing).

The actual mundane equipment, including arms and armor, are more a case of "a half-dozen things scattered here and there".

The Kyoketsu Shoge write-up is a straight copy and paste. Hardly anything was updated, balanced, or fixed. Very unfortunate.

Then I think you already know exactly what you want.

An Air Elemental Sorcerer. You can't get a better dedicated electricity blaster than that.

If you play a human, you'll actually have a ton of spells to choose from at higher levels, so it's still possible to have a bit more versatility.

As for the Druid, you /may/ be disappointed with your options. You already said you wanted to be a dedicated blaster... so back-up healing isn't needed. Just get a couple wands of Cure Light Wounds and anyone can heal if they have it on their spell list. If there are absolutely no other casters around, then pump UMB for yourself.

The Druid list just doesn't have the same amount of 'Blaster'-type spells on it's roster, and the Call Lightning spells are rather underwhelming. And Air Elemental Sorcerer not only has access to all the amazing Wizard spells, but you can convert ANY elemental spell to Lightning, which hugely expands your lightning options if that is really your schtick.

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Yup, there are blank books/journals you can buy and fill with whatever.

Drawing flasks take a Retrieve Stowed Item action.... so it's a move action.

The Blue Book lists all the local brothels, bars, and gambling dens in a city... which then gives you +2 to Knowledge(Local), Bluff, and limited Diplomacy checks for 24 hours in that city after you read it.

Oh, and the Bayonet is still in there... but it still renders the crossbow or firearm useless when it's attached (that always bugged me too).

Zark wrote:

Meaning the monk can't use the Brawling Ability.
If I was a Monk lover I would probably have a fit right now.

Belt for oils/potions where these items can be drawn as a swift or free action?
Bandolier (for scrolls or other stuff)?

As a final spoiler, there is a Bandolier...

This leather belt is worn over one shoulder and runs
diagonally across the chest and back. It has small loops
or pouches for holding eight objects the size of a flask
or small dagger. You can use the “retrieve a stored item”
action to take an item from a bandolier. You can wear up to
two bandoliers at the same time (any more than this and
they get in each other’s way and restrict your movement).

But that doesn't let you use potions or oils as a swift/free action.

You might like this new jacket (chest slot), however...


5,000 GP

Absorbent fibers line this heavy
canvas coat. Once per day as a
standard action, the wearer can pour
a potion onto this lining, suffusing
it into the coat. If the potion has an
instantaneous duration, the wearer
can activate the coat as a swift action
to consume the potion. If the potion’s
duration is measured in rounds, the wearer can activate the
coat as a swift action to gain the potion’s benefits for 1 round,
repeating as desired each round until the potion’s entire duration
has been used. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. The
coat absorbs only potions with instantaneous or round-based
durations, and only those which affect creatures (for example, it
does not work on oils). Once the coat absorbs a potion, the potion
cannot be retrieved from it, only used as described above. The
absorbed potion loses its powers after 24 hours, even if unused.

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Odraude wrote:

Honestly as far as more Arms and Armor goes, I think there comes a point where it is really difficult to add more. Imagination wise, you really start to run out of real-world items to use before you start reskinning items (see the cutlass).

I don't think I agree with that. There are many examples in 3.0, 3.5, and even 4th Edition that aren't yet represented in Pathfinder. I'll admit, I was looking forward in some vain hope for some conversions. I knew it was a long shot, so I can't be too disappointed. But suffice it to say, there were options out there.

The longstanding issues with existing gear not being addressed upset me even more.
Even looking at recent additions, like the Nodachi or Tetsubo. An overpowered Martial weapon and an underpowered Exotic weapon. Why couldn't that be addressed?
Or what about the Double-Barreled Musket still having a range of only 10ft while the Double-Barreled Pistol has a range of 20ft?
Someone also brought up the Scorpion Whip, and the issues that carried over. There are other examples as well.

Oh well, I think I'm just getting too worked up over this right now. I need to sleep on it and look at the book fresh. I really do appreciate Paizo, and I'm not usually the one to have negative knee-jerk reactions to their products. This is actually really out of character for me.

So off to bed with me and I'll eventually comment again with a more matured opinion once I've had time to really digest the book. I know that, for me, part of that doesn't really happen until I get the physical book in my hands, so we'll see when that is.

Thanks for your patience, and I still encourage everyone to give the book a chance when they can. This might not have been what I was looking for, but for others it might be perfect.


Dennis Baker wrote:
As far as I can tell you can use the amulet and the wraps at the same time, is it in the same slot?

Not the same slot (Body and Neck slots, respectively)... however, they both give Enhancement Bonuses to the same thing. Therefore, they should not stack, correct?

"Bonus (Enhancement)

An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks."

However, I suppose you could combine them in the sense that you got your special magic properties from the AoMF and the Enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks from the Bodywraps... but that's still INSANELY expensive just to enhance your unarmed attacks, not to mention that anything you get from the Bodywraps don't work on every attack.

Also, you have to pass up on the Monk's Robe or other goodies.

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It takes up the body slot, so you can't wear it with Monk's Robe.

Tels wrote:

Actually, they probably stuck to Core because the Hardcover books are supposed to be setting neutral. Including abilities (such a spells, feats, items etc) that are tied to a region, diety or something Golarion specific don't generally make it into the Hardcover books.

Yet they included the Sawtooth Sabre, which isn't Golarion specific at all. *sarcasm*

Odraude wrote:
And yeah, you expected new items... it has new items... What's the complaint? Aside from the perceived mediocrity of the bandage wraps, which I honestly have no opinion about because I haven't done any math behind it or playtesting yet.

My complaint is that for the full price of a hardcover 400 page Pathfinder Core rulebook I expected more new gear than what was in the softcover 33 page Adventurer's Armory. This very much included arms and armor, which is the first thing that Fantasy RPG players think of when presented with an equipment crunch book.

I didn't get that.

The only thing that the Ultimate Equipment book has over the AA is new magic items, but it also failed to include some of the more popular published material while inventing new material that wasn't very well thought out.

As for the Bodywraps, you don't need to do any complex math or playtest it. Just read it. We aren't talking about the delicate balance of features inherent in a new 20 level base class. This is a simple magic item that does what it says on the tin.

To rub salt into the wounds of the Monk players, they even gave us the Brawling magic armor property (which is available to view in one of the more recent UE previews). This gives a nice boost to everyone using Unarmed combat EXCEPT for the monk.

BTW, I previously gave the Cat as an example of something that we didn't have a price of? Now that I look over my copy of AA, I was wrong... they have a lot of the animal prices in there already.


I did a search of the entire PDF using the keywords 'monk' and 'unarmed' (seperately), and didn't find anything else that made up for this.
There are some gloves or amulets that modify your unarmed strike, like allowing you do to acid damage or harden your fists into Adamantine... but they are limited and expensive, as well as taking slots of other important items.

Not done the book however. I've speed-read it once, but I'll hopefully have time to read it in more detail later.

Yeah, I double-checked just in case. No reach, though I guess it's debatable what it means that you can wield it as a whip if you are proficient in whips (which I suppose is part of the issue).

But yup, just a reprint.

This is a perfect example of what has me upset about the book, among other things.

There is new material in the book, sure, but nothing that justifies the hardcover price (IMHO). Honestly, I enjoyed Adventurer's Armory much more (even with all it's mistakes) and it cost a LOT less and was only 32 pages.

It's hard to believe the book is 400 pages... I keep flipping through the PDF and wondering what the heck happened. It just doesn't seem like the usual Paizo standard of quality that we are used to. *shrug*

Yeah sorry... I wasn't trolling you guys. That's the real deal. :(

Talonhawke wrote:
I think he was meaning hte bodywrap. Also I take it we still don't know how scorpion whips work? Are they using the UC or armory version if its even in there?

I typed out the prices and description of the Bodywrap exactly as I saw it in the PDF.

As for the Scorpion Whip, here you go...


1d4 ×2 (Performance)
Slashing damange
3 lbs.
5 GP

This whip has a series of razor-sharp blades and fangs inset
along its tip. It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with
armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a
scorpion whip as a whip.

master arminas wrote:
Ravennus wrote:

Honestly, there isn't much to offer for a 'sneak peak', as almost everything can be found in existing books or with a quick search on D20pfsrd.

I knew it would be a compilation, but I was expecting at least SOME new material... and no, the price for a house cat and a couple new alchemy items don't count.

I just started on the magic item section, however, and found this piece.
It seems they tried to solve the Monk/Unarmed enhancement dilemma, but I can't see this really helping anyone.

** spoiler omitted **...

Seriously? Seriously? Please tell me this a sick joke.

Master Arminas

There are some new clothing options (yay), prices for things which we never had prices before (kitties!), and a small smattering of other items...

... but the FIRST thing that most people will look for in this book are cool new weapons and armor. Weapons and armor they can use as a 1st level character or even base a new concept around. Older DnD players like me might even hope for some conversions of previous edition material to Pathfinder....

But nope. Sorry.

It's not even ALL the published material. No Cutlass (as mentioned) or Fauchard, etc.

Also, a lot of the glaring issues that have been talked about regarding existing weapons was not addressed at all. So we still have Exotic weapons that aren't worth the ink they are printed with, and Martial Weapons that outclass any other option. I wasn't expecting that to change completely, or for them to re-write all the weapons in the Core books... but there were some items published recently that deserved a re-balance, and this was the perfect time.

Known typos and errors from previous books also made it into this one, as if they just cut and paste without any thought. They could have at least worked some errata in, but nope.

There ARE a couple new materials, but nothing stood out to me.

I'm still working on Magic items, but while there are a couple interesting new magical properties... the new items themselves seem to be 'meh' with others (like the Bodywrap) being a huge 'WTF!'. They are also missing some VERY popular magical properties, like Agile, which again makes no sense.

Sorry, I'm kind of emotional right now. I've never posted anything this negative before about a Paizo product, and was happy to post many times about how pleasantly surprised I was by the Advanced Race Guide. That was a great book and FAR surpassed my expectations.... this Ultimate Equipment Guide, however, is the opposite so far. :(

Odraude wrote:

A cutlass is just a scimitar. Same stats, price, and weight. I think they felt there was no point in printing two weapons that were exactly the same mechanically. Hardly a reason to be completely disappointed.

And they have said in many threads, podcasts, and blog posts that this books was just a compilation of weapons from their core rules, with a couple of new wondrous items from RPG superstar. Expecting more than that when told otherwise isn't the fault of the devs.

The absence of the Cutlass is the least of my reasons for being disappointed, so please don't make assumptions.

I'd also like to know about these threads, podcasts, and blog posts... as I'm a regular here and have devoured everything they had to say about the book. This was the one book I was most looking forward to this year so I've read everything I could get my hands on.

But like I said, I was aware it was going to be a compilation. However, by definition a compilation should compile everything up to the present.... and they didn't do that.
What use is a compilation that only lists SOME of the published material, and still requires me to look in half a dozen other books or go to D20pfsrd? They used SOME of the Pathfinder Companion material... why not all of it?
Also, they didn't even bother to fix many of the glaring issues and errata. That, to me, is a huge problem.

And YES, I expected SOME new items. This included some new weapons and armor. This is not an unreasonable expectation from a book of this type.

Mikaze wrote:
Is there anything for unarmed monks? Hand/armwraps or anything else along those lines? anxious

Check out my spoiler in the other Ultimate Equipment thread, Mikaze, but be ready to be disappointed. :(

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IceniQueen wrote:

Where is the cutlass? You included weapons from every book but left out the cutlass? Cutlass, favorite weapon of pirates and you left it out.

Saddle once again Price Various? Weight Various? For all tents you put in for every kind. Why for saddle you put in Various?

Yup, none of the pirate themed gear made it in, including the cutlass.

So it isn't even really an up to date compilation.

This is the first Paizo Pathfinder product I have been truly disappointed in.

An item which almost everyone agrees is garbage for what it costs.

This item is even worse... costing half again as much as enhancing a single weapon, and only actually enhancing a small number of your total attacks. Yipee!!

Cheapy wrote:
The bodywraps are a brilliant compromise.

For ONE attack a round? More, when your BAB reaches 6, 11, and 16?

That's not very helpful to a flurrying Monk, especially since their BAB lags behind. They won't be able to enhance a second unarmed attack until 8th level, which leaves their other two flurry attacks unenhanced as well as any attacks of opportunity they might get.

Honestly, there isn't much to offer for a 'sneak peak', as almost everything can be found in existing books or with a quick search on D20pfsrd.

I knew it would be a compilation, but I was expecting at least SOME new material... and no, the price for a house cat and a couple new alchemy items don't count.

I just started on the magic item section, however, and found this piece.
It seems they tried to solve the Monk/Unarmed enhancement dilemma, but I can't see this really helping anyone.


+1 bonus 3,000 GP
+2 bonus 12,000 GP
+3 bonus 27,000 GP
+4 bonus 48,000 GP
+5 bonus 75,000 GP
+6 bonus 108,000 GP
+7 bonus 147,000 GP

This long cloth is wrapped around the chest multiple times
like a bandage. Once per round, the wearer may add an
enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on one attack and damage
roll for an unarmed strike or natural attack (for one specific
attack, not all attacks made with an unarmed strike that
round). The wearer may use this item an additional time per
round when his BAB reaches +6, +11, and +16.
Choosing to enhance an unarmed strike is not an action
and may occur when it is not the wearer’s turn (such as when
making an attack of opportunity). The wearer must decide
to use the item before the attack roll is made, but does not
have to expend all uses at the same time. For example, if the
wearer can use the item twice per round, he can use it once
on his turn when making an attack and save the second for
the possibility of making an attack of opportunity.
Additionally, the bodywrap can grant melee weapon
special abilities to a creature’s unarmed attacks, so long
as those special abilities to be added apply to unarmed
attacks. See Table 3–8: Melee Weapon Special Abilities
(page 137) for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as
additional bonuses for determining the market value of
the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses.
Any special abilities are set at the time of creation. A bodywrap of mighty strikes cannot have a modified
bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus
equivalents) higher than +7. Unlike an amulet of mighty
fists, a bodywrap needs to have a +1 enhancement bonus
to grant a melee weapon special ability.

If anyone was expecting a new balancing pass on the weapons they will be very disappointed. Even weapons that were clearly imbalanced or in need of errata are present.

A few new simple, martial, and exotic weapons would have also been appreciated... maybe even a few conversions of popular 3.5 weapons (re-named, of course). But nope, it's all just one big reprint, mistakes and all.

Yay for cut and paste!

Just downloaded and started reading the PDF...

So far, I have read through the mundane equipment chapters and haven't gone into the magical equipment or artifacts yet.

Not a happy camper. Not at all.
Let's put it this way... as much as the Advanced Race Guide was a very happy surprise... this book, so far, is a very bad one.

I still haven't finished it, but I already have major issues.
I won't go into detail at the moment, as I want to finish it and give others the opportunity to read it.

I'll post a full review at a later date.

I also really like Musket Master, as the 'typical' optimized Pistolero build has to resort to some really wacky things (and high levels) to get to the level of absurdity that some players seem to want.

One major problem is that the firearm rules are designed in a way that really prohibits dual-wielding pistols, unless you work around it by growing a third arm or resorting to specific magic tricks.
Kinda lame IMHO.

Even without those, Pistolero tends to get the attention because of the double-barreled pistol and how much burst damage it can produce.
Of course, there is a double-barreled musket... but as printed, it HAS LESS RANGE than the double-barreled pistol! 10ft! Meaning that no one really considers it.

Personally, I believe that the 10ft range of the Double Barreled Musket is a typo/misprint and give it the same range as a normal musket (40ft).
The double-barreled pistol has the exact same range as it's normal pistol counterpart (20ft), so why not?

This tends to even things out at higher levels.
The Pistolero can still get up to his dual-wielding shenanigans and eventually some nice bonus precision damage.
Meanwhile, the Musket Master has double the range for touch attacks and higher base damage (lovely for those occasional x4 crits). Also, the Musket Master is a lot less feat intensive which allows you to grab awesome things like the Snap Shot line.

For something a little more Exotic and Smashy, I always liked the 3.5 edition Greathammer (a.k.a. the Goliath Greathammer).

1d12 x4 and +2 bonus to Sunder attempts
(Exotic weapon of course)

As was already mentioned many many times... no need to do a conversion for a typical Martial Maul... that's what the Earthbreaker is.
2d6 x3

I'm still a bit ticked off that they made the Tetsubo an EXOTIC weapon though, as it's stats don't come close to justifying it.
1d10 x4

In my experience, the 3.5 Greathammer was more than balanced as an exotic weapon.

Then again, I also hate how they consider the Greatclub a Martial weapon in Pathfinder... it definitely has Simple-level stats and it makes no sense that you need special martial training to swing a baseball bat.
Whoever designed the Tetsubo probably based it off of the Greatclub being a Martial weapon, which is already kind of silly and doesn't work.

I REALLY hope they fix these inconsistencies in the upcoming Ultimate Equipment Guide

I jumped into a similar thread a little while ago, where someone was making a BM/Viv Alchemist with Vestigial Arms. Their build relied on taking Multi-Weapon Fighting and getting 2 extra attacks from the extra arms.

I said that went against the description of the Discovery, and was shot town by half a dozen people.
Apparently it's not Vestigial Arms giving you the extra attacks... it's the Multi-Weapon Fighting feat? Which you now qualify for because you have 4 arms?

Meh... I still think that's kind of a cheesy interpretation, but whatever.

Good topic! (and one I hope that can avoid the flaming that sometimes comes with it)

I'm pretty much in agreement with your definitions Wraithstrike.

Maxximilius wrote:
Buri wrote:
Yeah, yeah, I get it. Yet Another Layer Of Complexity(TM). If I take someone new to the game, which, I've been encountering a lot lately as my group has been the one introducing Pathfinder to our game store, and explain them they can't multiclass according to the multiclass rules because those few classes are really archetypes and not classes when they're listed as classes, save for the scant paragraph that explains this, and see all the confused looks I'll get. Fun times are ahead!
Technically, I wouldn't suggest to any new player to use rulebooks outside of Core. Even if I understand your concern about useless complexity and agree with it, it is a non-issue right now since the new books are aimed at players with more rules-fu, who would probably search on the messageboards if they got a problem with the rules.

Another issue is that some players don't own the books (or only the CRB) and use things like d20pfsrd as their main rules resource.

Unfortunately, d20pfsrd doesn't contain every line of text from the books, and is sometimes missing key ones. Also, the rules are sometimes scattered around different pages of the website when they are on the same page of the actual book.

Don't get me wrong... I LOVE the d20pfsrd and all the work they do. I use it a LOT, especially for quick rules look-ups during games and for cross referencing stuff... but it is no substitution for actually reading the print books or PDFs as you are supposed to.

Grimmy wrote:
Thanks so much Jason it's really cool to be playing a game where the lead designer is so in touch with the player base. It makes me proud to support Paizo with my gaming dollars.

Indeed! Thank you so much for your response, Jason!

Seriously, I hope you guys NEVER change when it comes to communication with your players. You folks are a shining example to all developers.

Cool stuff!

I'm super pumped for this book.... equipment books have ALWAYS been a weakness of mine... and 400 or so pages? My god, it'll be heaven.

I almost feel spoiled, especially after getting the Advanced Race Guide just a little while ago. It easily exceeded all my expectations!

This one might be harder though... as I have more concrete hopes and expectations for the UE. Namely, I want to see versions of favourite 3.0/3.5 exotic weapons... like the Fullblade (2d8 19-20/x2) and Greathammer (1d12 x4 +2 to Sunder).
I'm also hoping that some previously printed equipment is re-evaluated and fixed... the 1d10 x4 Exotic Tetsubo always bugged me. The 10ft Range double-barrel musket also seemed to be a mistake.
Also, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE throw a bone to Monks... we get that Brass Knuckles didn't do what you wanted them to do, but I REALLY hope you added a better magic item option than the ridiculously overpriced and underpowered Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Looking forward to more previews though, and I'm sure the book will be great! Can't wait! :)

Dragonamedrake wrote:
Tels wrote:
stringburka wrote:

Unlimited casting only goes for 0th level spells in 0th level slots. So no unlimited widened detect magic and no unlimited magical lineage + merciful shocking grasp.

this has been stated by the devs.

Can you quote this because I've seen a few posts before saying that any spell prepared in a 0-level slot isn't expended when it's cast.

Yeah I dont understand why people continue to say this. A 0-level spell is a Cantrip. A Cantrip is a 0-Level spell. They are the same thing.

From the SRD:

Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.

Its the same thing. If you lower a spell to 0-level it is a Cantrip and are not expended when cast. THATS RAW.

Now as to your question. Yes both Traits stack. Yes if you had both and memorized an Intensified Shocking Grasp it would be a Cantrip. THATS RAW. RAI it is not. Im sure most DM's would say No. But going stricktly by the rules as they are written it works.

This was the post that got me riled, sorry.

I responded in Lycanthropic Rage before I read the rest of the thread and saw that saner heads prevailed and that Dragonamedrake compromised a little in his RAW argument.

Papa-DRB wrote:
Aranna wrote:
PS: as long as some of you are passing toward or through Wisconsin feel free to hope over the lake to Michigan and buy some of our amazing Mackinaw Island Fudge.

Can I get some of this in Superior WI? My wife and I are heading to Duluth, MN later this week to visit her sister-in-law.

-- david

Duluth? Awesome! I'm practically right next door!

I live in Thunder Bay, less than an hour from the US Minnesota border. It takes me about 4 hours to get to Duluth, give or take. Nice city!

I recommend you check out a famous record store there called 'The Electric Fetus'. They have a lot of cool stuff, and not just records.

Also, if you ever get the chance, I would HIGHLY recommend driving a couple extra hours north of Duluth to Lutsen and Grand Marais. Lutsen has amazing hiking and super cheap lodging in the summer, and AMAZING skiing in the winter. Grand Marais is a cute little northern town right on Lake Superior... very beautiful and has a lot of cool little shops... and the World's Best Donuts!

Then if you feel up to it, cross the border and come to Thunder Bay! Fort William Historical Park (where I have worked) is a great tourist spot... it's a Living History Museum that re-enacts the Fur Trade in 1815. The entire place is a re-built Fur Trade Post. Very cool! (when I worked there, I used to dress up like a Voyageur or Scottish Gentlemen and talk to visitors in-character)

If I wasn't leaving for British Columbia this week, I'd suggest we meet up for a game, as I'll take any excuse to drive down there and especially to make new gaming friends. :)

Sorry, sometimes the Were-bear in me comes out, especially when confronted by ridiculous loopholes that no sane DM would allow.

I love theorycrafting as much as the next optimizer, but when something is so blatantly against RAI and isn't even clearly RAW... I can get a bit uppity, sorry.
The people in this thread that have been loudly pronouncing RAW RAW RAW are the ones that my ire is aimed at. It's been proven that you can argue as much against this, RAW, as for it... therefore it is NOT as cut-and-dry as some have said. I would even propose that there is so much interpretation involved... that any assumptions couldn't even be remotely considered RAW.

As for PFS... you could create someone from Minata, sure. The Dragon Empires Primer is even legal... but you would have to convince a DM/judge of this cheese in the first place. Good luck with that.

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