I just hope it is more indepth and better than the mass combat rules of Kingmaker. Don't get me wrong the ones in KM are ok and get the job done. Plus mass combat is not the focus of the AP. But for a AP about Pirates I expect and want indepth rules about ship to ship combat, sea travel, underwater and sea dangers etc.
The 4-pages of rules in the GameMastery Guide were also just a teaser for more in-depth rules on ship chases and combat.
A pirate fleet comprised of the worst, most horrorous pirates of the darkest oceans of Hell.
And Edward "Blackbeard" Teach would be grand admiral.
PLUS, he's immune to vorpal weaponry, and most weaponry anyway because he got his head chopped off by a Highlander with a katana. After which his body swum around the boat 10 times and went down. So you need some pretty heinous weaponry for him. He can shoot fireballs off of the lit fuses in his hair.
Jason Nelson, Neil Spicer, Boomer and I have already been brainstorming and we already have some great stuff planned for you guys. :)
Clark
Re 3.5 Ship Combat.
When has a Ballista ever been good for sinking ships? I'm fairly certain that is what cannons (bludgeoning damage) is for.
Ultimate Combat is going to have rules for naval battles, so we'll see how Pathfinder handles things soon enough.
You allow the ships Alchemist to have a discovery that lets s/he attach bombs to the ballista bolts or be used as ammo for the catapults.
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I like the sandbox idea but I would recommend doing it kind of like how Pinnacle does their "Plot Point" campaigns: The characters are free to go where their interest in various juicy leads might take them, and the adventure they find at each location starts to create a sense of a larger scheme by the villains.
At any rate, I'd love to see lots of creepy islands, each with their own unique "personality." Yes, an underwater adventure would be good but only one please.
As someone who has run a pirates campaign I have learned that random sailing and attacking of ships sounds good on paper but lacks a sense of purpose and direction in reality. Another thing to consider is that naval battles are long, drawn-out affairs of tacking, evading, outrunning and outmaneuvering because rarely do both parties want to grind together and fight it out by hand. I would recommend limiting the amount of tactical naval battles in this AP to once or twice, and let the rest of the adventure happen in other ways, because these things can become tedious.
If it does include naval battles, we would need rules that govern five-minute rounds (for the long process of ship chasing and maneuvering), hazards like reefs or rocks, turning arcs, cannons or something to replace them, and simple rules for wind/currents.
It would be AWESOME if the AP contained something none of the others have had: top-down cardboard markers of the various ships one might encounter so these battles can be handled on a regular tabletop grid (instead of 1" = 5 feet, more like 1" = 50 feet?) in turn-by-turn strategic combat.
A good plot that doesn't take the characters too far away from the water.
It would also be cool if we had a terrestrial villain, not something/someone from hell or another plane. A dragon? A lich? A demi-lich?
I'm interested in the "good pirates" angle and how it'll be used. I really wonder where the PCs will play this game, and I'm pretty sure that it'll be in the Shackles in all of those unnamed islands.
I'm interested in the "good pirates" angle and how it'll be used.
Keep in mind that the Gray Corsairs of Andoran are, understandably, considered "Pirates" by Cheliax, Katapesh, Nidal, Qadira, and several other Inner Sea nations.
Yet, the nature of what they do would make the idea of "good guy" pirates work quite well (and would even allow for a Paladin Pirate.)
I'm not a fan of classic 17/18th century pirates, probably cause of overexposure, pirates from other eras are more interesting, or even something like in Robin Hobb's books (fits with the assassin theme, if it will involve Norgorber and the Red Mantis)
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1. Exciting things for the PCs to do on the ship. Repel boarders, fight monsters, etc. It should not just be a method of transportation. The ship should be part of the adventure and not just an elaborate possession the PCs ride on.
2. Plotted sea based encounters. Don't leave all the sea based encounters up to the DM or a wandering monster table. Make some detailed, plotted, sea-based encounters that threaten both man and ship.
3. Underwater locations. I want to anchor the ship in deep ocean and dive off the side into adventure. Not every dungeon needs to be on an island or in a port.
4. Take it easy on the "real world" references. If you're going to have a "Blackbeard" inspired NPC don't call him "Darkbeard" or "Bonebeard". In fact, if the real world analogy is obvious go back to the drawing board and obfuscate some more.
5. My players should not say at any point, "Oh, so, like in that Pirates of the Caribbean movie?"
6. My players should not say at any point, "Right, like we did in Savage Tide?"
+1 to pretty much everything. Especially 1 & 2. While I think underwater adventuring should rate its own AP one day, I'm ok with it as a 1-off somewhere in this one. (Although I don't want parts 1-3 shipbound and parts 4-6 under the ocean -- it's not a pirate AP then.)
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You allow the ships Alchemist to have a discovery that lets s/he attach bombs to the ballista bolts or be used as ammo for the catapults.Re 3.5 Ship Combat.
When has a Ballista ever been good for sinking ships? I'm fairly certain that is what cannons (bludgeoning damage) is for.
Ultimate Combat is going to have rules for naval battles, so we'll see how Pathfinder handles things soon enough.
Pretty much the house rule we made years ago for our home games for ship combat. :)
5. My players should not say at any point, "Oh, so, like in that Pirates of the Caribbean movie?"
This is one is a bit unfair. Gamers in general are notorously bad at making loose connection to media. Hey look it has pirates it must be like latest...or favorite movie w/ pirates. Than their minds will start filling it in. The only way to aviod that reaction would not to have pirates.
As someone who has run a pirates campaign I have learned that random sailing and attacking of ships sounds good on paper but lacks a sense of purpose and direction in reality. Another thing to consider is that naval battles are long, drawn-out affairs of tacking, evading, outrunning and outmaneuvering because rarely do both parties want to grind together and fight it out by hand. I would recommend limiting the amount of tactical naval battles in this AP to once or twice, and let the rest of the adventure happen in other ways, because these things can become tedious.
This is my concern, too. I'm sure a pirate-themed AP will sell like hotcakes (and be a profitable, "safe" follow-up to Jade Regent, which is admittedly experimental in nature), but I don't have much enthusiasm for the concept at this point in time.
At best, I can see myself buying one or two chapters of the AP if a single book has a really cool adventure hook (ghost ship ftw), but this isn't a series I see my players wanting to play through for nigh on a year of gaming. (Maybe I'll finally run an Eberron game after all.)
5. My players should not say at any point, "Oh, so, like in that Pirates of the Caribbean movie?"
Yep. That too. I think those films are responsible for a lot of pirate burnout in my group.
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Several months ago, I pinged James on when Norgorber would get his deity article and why it hadnt been done yet. His response indicated that Norgorber would play a BIG role in an upcoming AP and would probably be the last of the prime 20 gods to get his article. If the past AP's have been any indication, the gods involved are always explained, and with good ole Norgorber taking last, that tells me his followers will probably be some of the antagonists. I really, really really want to see the Red mantis and the Church of Norgorber square off for overall dominance of the assassination portfolio... If the players were organizing a fleet from Cheliax, Absolam, Taldor or even Rahadoum to deal with the merciless Red Mantis and shake off their oppression once and for all, I think there would be plenty of great opportunities in there. Even if the PC's were just dealing with the piracy issue, it would eventually lead back to Ilizmagorti...
Rules for insult swordfighting: "You fight like a dairy-farmer!"
"Fitting, since you fight like a cow!"
Yeah I have to play that again.
Rules for insult swordfighting: "You fight like a dairy-farmer!""Fitting, since you fight like a cow!"
Yeah I have to play that again.
"You, sir, are a pain in the backside!" :P
Oh Monkey Island, you're so awesome. Three-headed monkeys and all.
+1I'd be happy if it involves Azlanti isles a bit, or a part of an adventure happens underwater.
I'm not for cannons, weapons less advanced, various exotic ballistae or scorpions. Maybe one secret magical weapon that works like a cannon.
Articles about slavery, smuggling and trade. Pirate code?
it's not so much of a 'code' as what you might call 'guidelines'.
Barbossa is my hero.
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Rules for insult swordfighting: "You fight like a dairy-farmer!""Fitting, since you fight like a cow!"
Yeah I have to play that again.
"You, sir, are a pain in the backside!" :P
Oh Monkey Island, you're so awesome. Three-headed monkeys and all.
I think Tofu-head, the vegetarian cannibal, was my favorite gag. Though the rubber tree sendup on Sierra was also pretty cool.
As for what this AP needs, I'll cast my vote for a small, forked, ruby rod. And the subsequent authors remembering it.
I would love to see something that took a different tack (sailing pun intended) on the classic Slavers series. I think it would be fun to revisit the idea of having the a slaver organization as an antagonist that the PCs can oppose either on moral grounds or because they're competition. Especially at the mid-upper levels when it's discovered they're just a spoke on a larger wheel of corruption that is ultimately being controlled and manipulated by some far-removed force.
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I for one *loved* the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, every single one left me feeling like playing and running pathfinder or 3.5. I WANT grand set-piece battles that reference or homage those films.
I know the good folks at Paizo are too creative and cool to outright steal from those movies. But as someone intent on PLAYING in Skull and Bones, I had better feel like Jack Sparrow, Errol Flynn and Guybrush Threepwood combined =D
This is one is a bit unfair. Gamers in general are notorously bad at making loose connection to media. Hey look it has pirates it must be like latest...or favorite movie w/ pirates. Than their minds will start filling it in. The only way to aviod that reaction would not to have pirates.5. My players should not say at any point, "Oh, so, like in that Pirates of the Caribbean movie?"
Actually I think gamers are notoriously astute in identifying loose connections to media. Since gamers are steeped in so much media they tend to get pretty good at making connections that non gamers might not get at all and as a result tend to identify the uninspired from the original pretty quickly. I hope the AP can use its influences (whether modern or ancient) subtly and not overtly.
To help, maybe we should start referring to this AP as a "sea faring adventure path" rather than a "pirate adventure path".
I evidently get annoyed by it....but hey to each their own.
But if we call it a 'sea faring ap" these astute gamers will draw paraells with the x movie. You can't win. It is about pirates. The difference between the AP and any pirate movie, novel etc. is you as the players decide what happens.
Having the PCs start the campaign as slaves would be an awesome intro; whether they're recent captures or slave-born could depend on traits. Seriously, I've been wanting to see something like this since I subscribed.
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Pirate-y mermaid ship saboteurs and salvagers.
A detailed and explansive list of possible pirate crews that PCs can come into conflict with or ally with while doing pirating.
Grog vending machines, used ship salesmen(new armor quality: unmoving plaid), insult swordfighting, and an Elaine Marley expy.
Rules for scurvy.
I don't really care much for underwater combat, though I am prepared to try it out for a few fights... ;)
I'm also with the "NO GUNPOWDER" crowd.
What would be cool, would be either old treasure maps or an old manuscript that would cryptically lead the adventurers to an acient treasure, or parts of a treasure, that must be assembled in order to save the day at the end. These should be riddles or cryptic texts (that litterally mean nothing to the players at the start of the adventure) that have do be deciphered as they go through the adventure path, with them finding clues to help them as they travel the world. A REALLY COOL massive puzzle, that makes perfect sense, but only at the end.
Ultradan
I think (and hope) since it is Golarian based gunpowder is out. However, magical ship-ship and ship-monster combat should definitely be in.I'm also with the "NO GUNPOWDER" crowd.
Ultradan
We are in agreement.
:D
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What I'm really hoping for is some clarifications for Fortifications against magic.
A ship based AP without something to handle Mages vs. structures could MASSIVELY increase the importance of wizards in this AP.
Remember a ship is pretty much just a castle on wheels (sails, etc.) with no outside support and as written a single wizard can easily solo kill a hundred pirates with next to no risk to himself.
I'd also love to see some re-working on the crafting rules. Even worse then Kingmaker the PC's are going to have massive amounts of downtime (ships are slow and distances are long) to craft and (potentially) huge amounts of cash to fund their experiments. This would be a good time to get some new guidelines for handling it.
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Yep. That's sort of my point: without cannons--and everything that they do to a setting--3.5 naval combat devolves to mass combat on decks, rather than what people typically think of as ship vs. ship tactical combat. Yes, catapults are mechanically superior, but they're much less stylish and evoke Greek Triremes rather than more modern navies of the Brits, etc.That's what I'm curious about. How did naval battles look in the 14th century?
Check out 12 Paces Without a Head for a great portrayal of early 15th-century pirates on the Baltic Sea.
It also gives a very interesting (and probably pretty accurate) depiction of what happens when guns fist enter the mix.
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I want:
A glossary of nautical/naval/piratical terms.
Great maps. Including a few ships.
Crew NPCs with quirks and foibles.
Letter of Marque.
Evil Gozreh worshippers.
Aboleth sending mermen as spies.
A kraken that must be questioned, rather than defeated.
A wererat on board.
Ship superstitions that must be appeased.
A villain that royally screws the party over in the beginning, and chokes on cold vengeance at the end.
A dragon vs. ship combat.
Naval combat rules that are play, not work.
Gnoll slavers from Katapesh on a raid.
Tribal villages that are backward and strange, with real taboos and totems.
A dungeon that was made by the actual African analogue, and not left behind by a progenitor race or aboleths.
Sneaking into a port.
A daring jailbreak, or rescuing an NPC from hanging.
A Port Royal type base.
Zombie plantation.
An animated seawreck.
A cargo cult.
Dagon.
Beshaba worship.
A magical spyglass or compass.
Upgrading a ship.
Stealing the ship in the first place, so the party gets to know the ship from attacking it.
Stowaway that proves useful.
Walking the plank.
Going into the Eye.
Rules for magical prosteses, such as false eyes and pegs, and hooks.
GUNPOWDER.
More than five powers at sea, with many nations chasing a prize.
- Big white whale
- narwals
- Driving a ship into cthulhu
Sahuagin Booty.
There is a distinct need for this.
...
- Driving a ship into cthulhu
How about a picture of the staff in pirate outfits like the guys of privateer press did in their No Quarter magazine... (Can't find it online...)
My list (Which echoes alot of already posted)
- Sahaugin, lots of them
- mermaids
- lots of backstabbing piratness... All kinds of tore up loyalty and all that..
- Treasure Island, and the Freeport Trilogy (Inspiration wise) Just really make it a pirate world good or ill
- Sahuagin!!! (Oh wait I said that already)
- Ship stats and battles, a really good in depth mass battle ship section or sections, especially an article pertaining to naval battles and how magic interacts with it (maybe some sort of demographic about how realistic and common ship wizards are, in the vein of the realism of diseases in cities from Curse. I really think some good research through the rules would help alot of people see how rare a wizard powerful enough to sink ships like crazy would be)
- As said before reasons for higher level pirates that arent just they are high level because you are.
- Focus on some cool new groups of pirates and the like, but I'm ok with a little red mantis just no real focus please, theyre starting to lose their value (like drow and jedi :P)
- Definately the underwater adventure or section of an adventure, but no more than a books worth
I'm also in the 50/50 camp on dragon turles. One may be ok, but thats it. I'm ok with Pirates of the Carribean as long as its not straight from it (I trust Paizo with my money so I think Ill be ok), also wanna echo that we dont go anywhere Savage Tide went (rather early ST) unless its in a new way thats cool. I would like to say I hope there arent alot of wierd critters this time (Savage tide had stuff like the wierd ant spiders and the ixixtchatls or whatever, Ive never liked them... oh and Kopru but thats because of the Isle of Dread). Speaking of which I'm ok with some stops in the jungle and dinosaurs and what not, but I'd love to see what you guys can do with an AP thats mostly on the ocean, on boats and the like... Also a merchant subsystem would be cool. I want too much :P
Ship maps, loads of them, in various sizes. From dinghys to man-o'-wars.
Rules for ship-combat, be it long-distance, or boarding-action - especially the latter.
Kraken!
15 ghasts on a dead man's chest.
Oh, and if you can fit an aspidochelene (spelling?) in there somehow..
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Ooooo, lists!
- Release the Kraken!
- Ghost Ship
- Something underwater. Doesn't need to be an entire adventure but I'd love to see something azlanti or mermaidian or something that requires a bit of underwater fun.
- Hidden Cove Hideout!
- Ship damaging/building/repairing: Things we can do to improve our ship if we want to toss money at problems like that.
- Boarding parties when and where to use them!
- Treasure map
Soooo excited!!! ^_^ Totally playing a changeling druid for this one!
