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Celebrating the death of someone who procured the mass murder of three-thousand odd people plus is not equivalent to actually procuring the death of three-thousand odd people. So "becoming what you hate" is wide of the mark. I do think that the "street party atmosphere" is a bit odd, but not necessarily unwarranted. I suspect that this won't make an awful lot of difference in the long term - al Quaeda is more an idea than an organisation as such, and bin Laden isn't the kingpin he once was. But it does demonstrate that America will catch up with you in the end, which is a psychological victory of sorts.
At the risk of being inflammatory...
I'm not going to impugn you with claims of willful obtuseness or deliberate circumvention of the intended point; perhaps I could be clearer in demonstrating the desire to not become akin to that which most default to describing as 'our enemies'. Perhaps this clarification will help.
Actually, I had these scenes in mind when I wrote what I wrote, so I'm afraid your helpful intervention was unnecessary. The Palestinian cause was the main reason why the Arab Street was not keen on the US at the time, due to America's general support for Israel. I remember clearly scenes on British television when 9/11 happened showing Palestinians celebrating and being disgusted by it. Which is why I suggested that I didn't understand the party atmosphere over bin Laden.
But then again, America has generally supported an Israel that chucked the Palestinians out of their homes so they ended up in refuge camps and continues to stifle both aspirations for statehood and economic development, while ignoring UN resolutions telling it not to. The Palestinian cause is felt very keenly in the Arab world (though not, ironically, by bin Laden much himself). So maybe they felt they had cause - to some extent, it is a bit hard to judge given the tangled history and alliances in the Middle East.
But it still doesn't mean that saying you are glad bin Laden is dead (and I am) makes you the equivalent of bin Laden himself. He was a mass-murderer, and while it might have been nice to put him on trial, I can live with this outcome. I have no feeling either way about Islam or muslims - I judge the individual, and in any case as an atheist I find appeals to religious doctrine bogus anyway. So no, I wasn't being wilfully obtuse, I was simply seeing some of the shades of grey around this whole thing.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The more I read about the operation, the more interesting it is. Going from Detainee intelligence (Score one for Gitmo) with a nickname for a courier and ending up with Osama bin Fishfood is rather impressive. When you add we were in and out of Pakistan, w/o the government knowing... Well even Mossad has to be going 'Damn...'
Obama said in his speech that Pakistan was involved with us. They probably weren't happy about it, but they weren't about to get in the way either, it would seem.
No doubt Pakistan will be a target for retaliation. Helping us could be seen as a traitorous act to the Taliban and sympathizers.
Nice. Now they've got a Martyr.
As an American, I'm relieved and even a little glad to have seen this on the news last night. As the face of modern terrorism and the architect of a plot that ultimately prematurely ended 3,000 civilian lives for no reason other than their existence, not to mention his other terrorist accomplishments, I think bin Laden's day of justice has finally come.
However, as a Christian, the news makes me feel kinda sad, honestly. Here is a case of a man who was so driven, so completely wrapped up in his religious beliefs, that he was willing to send hundreds (or more) of people to their deaths killing God-only-knows how many others. Per my own beliefs, he will be spending his eternity in a place that the Bible calls Hell, followed by the Lake of Fire. And even as evil as the man clearly was, I can't bring myself to truly feel anything but remorse about anyone going to that awful place.
Nice. Now they've got a Martyr.
I don't think there was a way to avoid that. He probably would have committed suicide before being taken alive, and it is not like we could prove he killed himself.
I just hope they don't have another spiritual leader.
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When you say that you're glad for my gladness, I can't help but feel like you're patting me on the head, with you telling me that you're a much better person than I could ever hope to be and that it'll be okay. That may not be what you're doing or even your intent, but its how you're coming across to me.Which, truth be told, I'm glad for you pointing out to me, as my intent is genuinely not to patronize; it's a difficult concept to express in any VERBAL form, never mind textual. It's like...what's the opposite of schadenfreude? The antonym of 'sour grapes'? It's not something I even want to express on a regular basis, but right now, that's the closest expression of sympathetic understanding of elation, even with some reserved disagreement.
Frankly, I'll say it as I have been prone to telling to anyone and everyone that knows me personally - I'm a horrible person, I'm not as funny as other people claim, and this is one of many reasons why I can't have nice things. I don't feel that I'm a better person as a general rule, with the prime exceptions being those who plug their ears and go 'LA LA LA LA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH CAN'T HEAR YOU' when confronted with something that conflicts with their worldview. I have no qualms with being wrong, and have been on a regular basis, though you'll not catch me admitting it anywhere but here, guaranteeing that it will be quoted forever into perpetuity. It's not the point of this particular frustrated expression of dissent from those that express jubilation in a death, no matter how heinous the deeds of the deceased.
I'd be lying if I didn't think that the world is a better place minus Bin Laden. I'm sure that most of his family, whom have either disowned or disavowed themselves of him, aren't thinking fondly of him now. At the same time, I would like to think we'd carry ourselves with better decorum, a slightly more serious, possibly stoic gravitas, in humble acknowledgement of the work of our troops, as well as those of the other...
Hey I understand what you're saying. I even appreciate the irony involved. I'm just glad to know that you're not actually a sympathizer (because they'll be coming out of the woodwork before too long, if they haven't already). I'm not looking to sow hate here.
Some of us are actually carrying on with dignity and gravitas. But as a Navy man (Hospital Corpsman), hearing that Seal Team Six was responsible for bringing him down, I can't help but be happy and proud of the accomplishment. An evil man has been removed from the world and we are the better for it.
And with that I'm going to bed....Deuces!!!
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Nice. Now they've got a Martyr.And...
They'll hate the west more? They'll want to kill us more? I don't see the issue. I'm all for supplying them all the martyers they want, until they run out of fanatics or they wise up.
It's God's job to forgive Bin Laden - It was our job to arrange the meeting.
Job well done!
Nice. Now they've got a Martyr.And...
They'll hate the west more? They'll want to kill us more? I don't see the issue. I'm all for supplying them all the martyers they want, until they run out of fanatics or they wise up.
It's God's job to forgive Bin Laden - It was our job to arrange the meeting.
Job well done!
Well said! I'm quoting you on that.
If I had the shot, I would have taken it without a moment's hesitation. The world is a better place. That being said, I can not celebrate. I do not begrudge those that do. I question whether he is worth the emotion.
I've seen many things I disagree with you about over the years (and generally I just lurk anyways anymore).
Your above statement is truly marvelous. I cannot agree with you more. Thank you.
/d
Actually, I had these scenes in mind when I wrote what I wrote, so I'm afraid your helpful intervention was unnecessary. The Palestinian cause was the main reason why the Arab Street was not keen on the US at the time, due to America's general support for Israel. I remember clearly scenes on British television when 9/11 happened showing Palestinians celebrating and being disgusted by it. Which is why I suggested that I didn't understand the party atmosphere over bin Laden.
That does help, and since your answer was sincere, I'll amend with equal sincerity.
My equivalency-statement is not about Bin Laden himself - it is of those who would laud the dead man's deeds.
Clearly, no one wants to be Bin Laden. But too many seem to want to impersonate his fan cult.
If I had the shot, I would have taken it without a moment's hesitation. The world is a better place. That being said, I can not celebrate. I do not begrudge those that do. I question whether he is worth the emotion.I've seen many things I disagree with you about over the years (and generally I just lurk anyways anymore).
Your above statement is truly marvelous. I cannot agree with you more. Thank you.
/d
Brevity is the soul of wit, and conciseness its heart.
+10
The more I read about the operation, the more interesting it is. Going from Detainee intelligence (Score one for Gitmo) with a nickname for a courier and ending up with Osama bin Fishfood is rather impressive. When you add we were in and out of Pakistan, w/o the government knowing... Well even Mossad has to be going 'Damn...'
i am not a fan of detainee intelligence by any means, but it sounds like a few twenties were rolled here.
Clearly, no one wants to be Bin Laden. But too many seem to want to impersonate his fan cult.
Yes because the celebration over the death of a man who was a mass murder who killed and terrorized people of all races and religions for his on agenda. Some one who was behind the pain of untold family and the figurehead for fear and death for so long is clearly the same thing as celebrating the death of innocent people.
No, it is not, not even in the same league.
Actually, I had these scenes in mind when I wrote what I wrote, so I'm afraid your helpful intervention was unnecessary. The Palestinian cause was the main reason why the Arab Street was not keen on the US at the time, due to America's general support for Israel. I remember clearly scenes on British television when 9/11 happened showing Palestinians celebrating and being disgusted by it. Which is why I suggested that I didn't understand the party atmosphere over bin Laden.That does help, and since your answer was sincere, I'll amend with equal sincerity.
My equivalency-statement is not about Bin Laden himself - it is of those who would laud the dead man's deeds.
Clearly, no one wants to be Bin Laden. But too many seem to want to impersonate his fan cult.
If I had the shot, I would have taken it without a moment's hesitation. The world is a better place. That being said, I can not celebrate. I do not begrudge those that do. I question whether he is worth the emotion.I've seen many things I disagree with you about over the years (and generally I just lurk anyways anymore).
Your above statement is truly marvelous. I cannot agree with you more. Thank you.
/d
Brevity is the soul of wit, and conciseness its heart.
+10
Your status as a concern troll is duly noted, carry on.
Clearly, no one wants to be Bin Laden. But too many seem to want to impersonate his fan cult.Yes because the celebration over the death of a man who was a mass murder who killed and terrorized people of all races and religions for his on agenda. Some one who was behind the pain of untold family and the figurehead for fear and death for so long is clearly the same thing as celebrating the death of innocent people.
No, it is not, not even in the same league.
I think the point being made is that in each case the deaths of enemies was being celebrated. I personally don't consider those people who died in the towers the enemies of any of the people who were celebrating, but I am sure they did not feel that way or there would have been no celebration.
PS:I would have been more than happy to end his life myself. I am just saying I understand why the celebration of death is not looked upon favorably.
Clearly, no one wants to be Bin Laden. But too many seem to want to impersonate his fan cult.Yes because the celebration over the death of a man who was a mass murder who killed and terrorized people of all races and religions for his on agenda. Some one who was behind the pain of untold family and the figurehead for fear and death for so long is clearly the same thing as celebrating the death of innocent people.
No, it is not, not even in the same league.
I think the point being made is that in each case the deaths of enemies was being celebrated. I personally don't consider those people who died in the towers the enemies of any of the people who were celebrating, but I am sure they did not feel that way or there would have been no celebration.
PS:I would have been more than happy to end his life myself. I am just saying I understand why the celebration of death is not looked upon favorably.
I heard, on his birthday, Osama had cake and presents. Every time we celebrate our birthdays with cake and presents, we emulate Osama.
Clearly, no one wants to be Bin Laden. But too many seem to want to impersonate his fan cult.Yes because the celebration over the death of a man who was a mass murder who killed and terrorized people of all races and religions for his on agenda. Some one who was behind the pain of untold family and the figurehead for fear and death for so long is clearly the same thing as celebrating the death of innocent people.
No, it is not, not even in the same league.
I think the point being made is that in each case the deaths of enemies was being celebrated. I personally don't consider those people who died in the towers the enemies of any of the people who were celebrating, but I am sure they did not feel that way or there would have been no celebration.
PS:I would have been more than happy to end his life myself. I am just saying I understand why the celebration of death is not looked upon favorably.
I heard, on his birthday, Osama had cake and presents. Every time we celebrate our birthdays with cake and presents, we emulate Osama.
Maybe he was emulating us. :)
I think the point being made is that in each case the deaths of enemies was being celebrated.
And this is where you fail, it is not the celebration of an enemy death, but that of a mass murdering serial killer who terrorized the world.
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I think the point being made is that in each case the deaths of enemies was being celebrated.And this is where you fail, it is not the celebration of an enemy death, but that of a mass murdering serial killer who terrorized the world.
Uh maybe I have missed something but would that not fall quite squarly under someone you consider an enemy?
Maybe mommy and daddy need to take away your computer rights?Anyone else find it at least a little funny(maybe ironic), that his body was disposed at sea, where he'll never be found?
I understand the religious implications of his burial, and the strategic placement so as not to have a grave site to claim/defend, I just find it hilarious after the maddening decade long search, we made sure he'll never be found.
They took pictures and video just in case a hard core Rightwinger like you who start another stupid conspiracy theory that Osama isn't really dead. Justic is done. The families of the dead from 9/11 can at least feel good about that. President Bush could have gotten Osama at Tora Bora if he was doing his job correctly. He didn't send enough troops.
What is shocking is that Osama was living out in the open in Pakistan under their military protection. So lets make it clear this is a victory for America under the leadership of President Obama. He told the CIA director to make it a #1 priority, and he gave the order to the US troops to kill the SOB. I hope he is sharing a cell with Saddam in Hell!
Maybe?
I think the point being made is that in each case the deaths of enemies was being celebrated.And this is where you fail, it is not the celebration of an enemy death, but that of a mass murdering serial killer who terrorized the world.
There is no fail. I am sure the celebrators didn't look at it as mass murder, but I bet every time we killed an innocent they saw it that way. I said they saw it as an enemy death, not that we(most of your citizens) ever bared any ill will toward them, or were true enemies.
From their point of view they were celebrating an enemy death. It does not matter if it was true or not. The point is that in both cases a perceived threat* was taken out, and there were celebrations.*I can't begin to explain how that makes sense, but I sure somebody told them a few lies to make them believe we cared about them before 9/11.
On a similar note: How destroying the twin towers is a good thing or strategic is not something I can fathom, but they were probably spoon fed some nonsense that made them believe we would be afraid and it would break our spirit. All it really did was piss us off. If Osama would have been as good at history as he was at engineering maybe Pearl Harbor would have popped into his mind. You mess with the bull you get the horns.
Clearly, no one wants to be Bin Laden. But too many seem to want to impersonate his fan cult.Yes because the celebration over the death of a man who was a mass murder who killed and terrorized people of all races and religions for his on agenda. Some one who was behind the pain of untold family and the figurehead for fear and death for so long is clearly the same thing as celebrating the death of innocent people.
No, it is not, not even in the same league.
I think the point being made is that in each case the deaths of enemies was being celebrated. I personally don't consider those people who died in the towers the enemies of any of the people who were celebrating, but I am sure they did not feel that way or there would have been no celebration.
PS:I would have been more than happy to end his life myself. I am just saying I understand why the celebration of death is not looked upon favorably.
Exactly the point.
I think the general 'don't be a dick' factor is just lost on people. I hate the hypocrisy of it as well.
It's not about religion for me, or some kind of feel good mantra, or even 'concern trolling', as someone rather blatantly misused the term (a better example would be, 'You know, I'm glad about the death of Bin Laden, but the methods make me think that we should be prepared to defend the President from future subpoenas to go to the Hague' - where you not only damn with faint praise but cast aspersions upon the results, a you'll more likely than not hear out of those who are disingenuous about the matter and want to slight the subject in any and all possible ways). I don't hate my fellow Americans, I hate the hate that's shown. I honestly believe we're better than that, even as I agree that the death of Bin Laden is a net plus for the world.
We're human. I accept that. I don't lay any theological claim to superiority or a higher standard (and if such was implied, my wholehearted apology). I just really, really, REALLY hate that the son of an *expletive* has turned so many of my countrypeople into seething masses of ugliness, who were just as quick to turn on each other over a boogeyman who will henceforth be shark bait.
PS Rocketmail - monkey icon, analogy apt.
Put the flag out this morning before going to work. Having said that, I am not jumping up and down in joy. Yes, there is a part of me that is doing fist pumps and yelling, "Hell yeah!" But overall, I just feel sorry for all the waste of the entire situation. We never had to be enemies with these people, all of the people that have died and that will die on either side, is so unnecessary. No person is truly entirely evil, even Bin Laden wasn't. I feel for his family, but at the same time, I feel for those whose lives he negatively impacted and continues. In the end, I feel like the kid at the end of O'Yeller. Sometimes dead is better, but that doesn't make it joyous event.
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For those talking about the celebrations, keep in mind that:
The gathering last night at the White House last night, most of them were GW (George Washing University) students taking a break from studying from Finals Week. They were looking for ANY excuse to let off some steam. The school campus is merely a few blocks away from the White House.
On the death of Osama and the muslims around the world .... the bakery I go to every day for the workshop's lunch is run by a Muslim family. I walked in, they're talking about it excitedly, the Uncle-cum-head-baker turns to me, says "They finally got that pig-f!$#er!" and gives me a high-five.
Trust me, Muslims don't like Osama any more than Christians like Pedophiles, and you may draw whatever conclusions you like from that comparison.
Mind you I'm also in favour of every soldier being given magazines loaded with hollowpoint bullets loaded with pig's blood and sealed with wax, then telling the enemy forces that's what every English, American and Australian soldier is loaded with. Instant cease-fire.
And while we're on the subject, to US, UK and my own Australia, gtfo of the middle east, in fact the rest of the world too, and focus upon your own problems first. Trying to 'fix' other nations has done little more than make us targets, and I for one am sick and tired of seeing brave men and women from our own countries dying for people who happily send their children off to blow each other up the instant the people they all hated disappear.
But I do agree, Osama bin Laden's death was long overdue. I just wish he'd never gotten his training in the first place.
I will not celebrate a man's death but if this drops gas prices down I will dance in the streets!
Put the flag out this morning before going to work. Having said that, I am not jumping up and down in joy. Yes, there is a part of me that is doing fist pumps and yelling, "Hell yeah!" But overall, I just feel sorry for all the waste of the entire situation. We never had to be enemies with these people, all of the people that have died and that will die on either side, is so unnecessary. No person is truly entirely evil, even Bin Laden wasn't. I feel for his family, but at the same time, I feel for those whose lives he negatively impacted and continues. In the end, I feel like the kid at the end of O'Yeller. Sometimes dead is better, but that doesn't make it joyous event.
I'll probably get called out on this, but so be it.
I normally disagree with you, completely, on almost everything.
But damn if you didn't knock it out of the park.
If you and I can share an epiphany like this, I can hold out hope that, even if we aren't always on the same page, we can share an understanding.
...I'm not sure what the protocol is on this. Salute? Handshake? 'Terrorist fist jab'?
On the death of Osama and the muslims around the world .... the bakery I go to every day for the workshop's lunch is run by a Muslim family. I walked in, they're talking about it excitedly, the Uncle-cum-head-baker turns to me, says "They finally got that pig-f!$%er!" and gives me a high-five.
Trust me, Muslims don't like Osama any more than Christians like Pedophiles, and you may draw whatever conclusions you like from that comparison.
Mind you I'm also in favour of every soldier being given magazines loaded with hollowpoint bullets loaded with pig's blood and sealed with wax, then telling the enemy forces that's what every English, American and Australian soldier is loaded with. Instant cease-fire.
And while we're on the subject, to US, UK and my own Australia, gtfo of the middle east, in fact the rest of the world too, and focus upon your own problems first. Trying to 'fix' other nations has done little more than make us targets, and I for one am sick and tired of seeing brave men and women from our own countries dying for people who happily send their children off to blow each other up the instant the people they all hated disappear.
But I do agree, Osama bin Laden's death was long overdue. I just wish he'd never gotten his training in the first place.
First - your baker? Many internets to him. Especially since I'm all too sure he's had to put up with too much crap over the rampant Islamaphobia.
Second - the comparison? Squicky but apt, though I personally would have said specifically Catholics, not to single them out, but because they have been the ones most targeted over that bit of misery. Those of the faith really don't deserve that antagonization, and I say that as a survivor of Catholic school.
Third, blood bullets? REALLY squicky, but incredibly awesome from a fiction perspective.
In general I'm in agreement (except maybe on the actual implementation of blood bullets), but especially on the training bit. If anything, it's especially appropriate that we 'got' Bin Laden, since we made him.
I will not celebrate a man's death but if this drops gas prices down I will dance in the streets!
+1000000000000000000
Hey, look - 10 years ago, as I sat in shocked silence in front of my TV for 18 straight hours, I said I'd celebrate when OBL was killed. If you didn't say that at that time, good for you.
I am simply as good as my word.
Meh, I didn't feel anything then when the towers fell, and I don't feel anything now that Bin Laden is dead.
Meh, I didn't feel anything then when the towers fell, and I don't feel anything now that Bin Laden is dead.Hey, look - 10 years ago, as I sat in shocked silence in front of my TV for 18 straight hours, I said I'd celebrate when OBL was killed. If you didn't say that at that time, good for you.
I am simply as good as my word.
Okay, concern troll comment aside, seriously?
I'm not joking, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just flabbergasted.
I'm not expecting AMURRICA F*CK YEA, I'm not expecting Poor Bin Laden, but...nothing? Complete, total apathy?
Wow.
Can I get your perspective on the collective losing of our cultural minds, then? 'Cause I think this is as much of an outsider perspective as I can hope to ever find.
The US killed a man in another country. "Tragically, he was killed when resisting arrest..." they'll say. Then they bury him at sea the very same day, "so he can't become a martyr".
This stinks.
One, if the US really had killed him now, they would have taken the body to be showed off, come hell or high water. NOTHING would have stood in the way of being able to prove he has really been killed.
Two, if this was a lie, that means he's either already dead, or he's not.
Three, if he wasn't dead, they would risk him showing up somewhere in a few years' time, so he must be dead.
Four, if I remember correctly, he needed dialysis back in 2001. Expected survival in that situation is... pissy. A few years. I doubt getting health care back in some Afghan caves would have improved things.
Five, the timing is impeccable, with the end of the US military presence closing in, and Obama needing popularity figures.
Six, the decision to do this was likely a prelude to war in Pakistan. Within days, the accusations of sheltering him will fly. Either Pakistan will then give the US whatever they want, or there will be war. Again. Yay. Against a nuclear power.
If I were you, americans, I would be VERY sad today.
Put me in the "happy he's dead" category. I'm not running about outside singing in the streets about it (that just seems wierd to me) but I am happy that we killed him.
I don't find myself burdened by any kind of metaphoric weight or guilt about the killing of others in the name of the country, but then again I'm in the military and if I DID I probably wouldn't belong here.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Wow, Sissyl,
I thought we had the market cornered on conspiracy theorists :-)
As to the 'timing'. If this was fabricated, then he's an idiot for doing it now. Rising fuel prices (over $4.00 in Ohio) rising food prices, unemployment still sucking, currency devaluation...
Lots of time between now and Nov 2012 for things to get worse.*
*
Meh, I didn't feel anything then when the towers fell, and I don't feel anything now that Bin Laden is dead.Hey, look - 10 years ago, as I sat in shocked silence in front of my TV for 18 straight hours, I said I'd celebrate when OBL was killed. If you didn't say that at that time, good for you.
I am simply as good as my word.
Okay, concern troll comment aside, seriously?
I'm not joking, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just flabbergasted.
I'm not expecting AMURRICA F*CK YEA, I'm not expecting Poor Bin Laden, but...nothing? Complete, total apathy?
Wow.
Can I get your perspective on the collective losing of our cultural minds, then? 'Cause I think this is as much of an outsider perspective as I can hope to ever find.
Okay. America is happy that he is dead, because Osama Bin Laden has been paraded around as the boogeyman and posterchild for terrorism, and so by killing them they will feel more secure, like they've won. They haven't, as I've said earlier, Osama bin Laden already won the war, the second the Twin Towers fell. That was his "magnum opus", if you will.
From my perspective, it was a pyrrhic victory, at best.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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There's this little concept, called being the better person. If you happen to be a self-proclaimed Christian and are celebrating his death, then it is an act of hubris and vainglory, and out of line with your supposed faith. To quote, Proverbs 24:17 - Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles; or the LORD will see it and be displeased, and turn His anger away from him.
As a Christian, I follow a God of both love and justice. Two points about Bin Laden resisting capture and being killed as he tried to defeat established authority.
Bin Laden was a criminal who killed babies and did not represent any established authority. He is in no way at all like anyone threatened, harmed, or killed by the events of 9/11. No comparision and no basis for comparision.
The United States is a sovereign government. It has at times killed babies (through casualities of war although in modern war the US strives hard to prevent civilian casualities). In this case, the US killing Bin Laden as he resisted lawful arrest was not only correct under US and international law but was also correct under Christian authority for just war and the exercise of government authority:
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. Romans 13:1-5 (New International Version, ©2011)
(Cavaet here that Scripture also says a person is NOT bound to authority that orders them to disobey God--ie a government that orders genocide for example. But that is another topic).
I prayed during the time that Bin Laden was hiding that he would reconcile with God; whether he did seems dubious based on his response to attempts to capture him but that is between him and God. I did my part to pray for my enemy while at the same time acknowledging his evil and the need that he be brought to justice.
I am glad justice was carried out. Bin Laden was a criminal murderer who resisted arrest and was killed. I pray for his soul even as I support and applaud our government (and the SEALs at risk) risking lives to bring him to justice. That is as Christian as it gets.
I am getting used to being called paranoid and a conspiracy theorist. Everyone who doesn't buy Government Offal Opinion 1a gets that.
But if you don't agree with me: Why did they bury him at sea the same day they killed him? What could have mattered more in that situation than getting him to where his death could have been proven without a doubt?
As to timing: Every big enough drop in popularity is a crisis for a president. This time, and in the future, he will be able to fall back on having "gotten" Osama bin Laden. The timing is PERFECT. All those reasons are quite good enough. And if they get worse, well, you still have a president who "got" bin Laden, don't you?
I heard a news story where it claimed that this was never a capture mission, but a kill on sight mission. And that Pres. Obama and other officials were getting live feed and making the calls for the actions taken (within reason). Supposable there was some celebration within the room when it was announced that Bin Laden had been taken out.
EDIT: Pres. Obama did say that for some time (at least a few months), they had suspected that Bin Laden was at this compound. It had just reached a point where the "evidence" was sufficient that Pres. Obama felt comfortable giving the go-ahead for a seek and destroy effort. That could have been politically calculated or not.
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But if you don't agree with me: Why did they bury him at sea the same day they killed him? What could have mattered more in that situation than getting him to where his death could have been proven without a doubt?
Actually from what is being reported the americans offerd to hand over the body to the Saudi goverment (him being a Saudi and all) but there goverment refused to take the body. Secondly they had somewhere between 12 -24 hours between the time of killing him and burial at sea more than enough time for all the tests needed to identify.
There's this little concept, called being the better person. If you happen to be a self-proclaimed Christian and are celebrating his death, then it is an act of hubris and vainglory, and out of line with your supposed faith. To quote, Proverbs 24:17 - Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles; or the LORD will see it and be displeased, and turn His anger away from him.As a Christian, I follow a God of both love and justice. Two points about Bin Laden resisting capture and being killed as he tried to defeat established authority.
Bin Laden was a criminal who killed babies and did not represent any established authority. He is in no way at all like anyone threatened, harmed, or killed by the events of 9/11. No comparision and no basis for comparision.
The United States is a sovereign government. It has at times killed babies (through casualities of war although in modern war the US strives hard to prevent civilian casualities). In this case, the US killing Bin Laden as he resisted lawful arrest was not only correct under US and international law but was also correct under Christian authority for just war and the exercise of government authority:
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the...
Ah, yes, Divinely sanctioned obedience. What leader wouldn't like that? Personally, that quote sounds like bullshit designed to tell the poor that they shouldn't uprise against the leaders that are squashing them because God put them there.
Now, how will the Rightwing spin this so it doesn't benefit President Obama, who they hate and want to destroy? Right, as we speak, they are having meetings trying to come up with a stragedy.Drama Queen much? There ar eno meeting, because in the grand scheme, this is a minor laurel on Obama's wreath. The ecomomy is still in the tank and gas is still creeping steadily towords $5.00 a gallon. Any boost this give to Obama's approval rating will disapate quickly.
However, there isn't any way they can. The Rightwing, hard core conservative president George W. Bush couldn't find Osama and kill him. However, the so called leftist, liberal, weak President Barrack Obama is able to get it done. Do you think he's a radical secret Muslim now, Rightwingers?
Neither Bush nor Obama had any real impacting influance on this search. Bush initiated it, Obama continued it and then gave a go ahead to take action once others had found him.
And just for the record, Bush may have leaned Right, but he was in no way a 'hard core concervative'.
Okay. America is happy that he is dead, because Osama Bin Laden has been paraded around as the boogeyman and posterchild for terrorism, and so by killing them they will feel more secure, like they've won. They haven't, as I've said earlier, Osama bin Laden already won the war, the second the Twin Towers fell. That was his "magnum opus", if you will.
From my perspective, it was a pyrrhic victory, at best.
That is awesomely bleak (in the literal since - I am quite awe-struck).
It's also what I felt about the whole works back in 2004.
I don't attribute the change in attitude to the change of commanders in chief - I think that, in my own experience, the situation and the workings of the kill didn't poke my cynic buttons, in part due to not being an election year.
It's very Pyrrhic, in terms of the cost of lives, money, and the psyches of the survivors, but I do hold out hope that something better will coe of it.
And, in case it isn't clear, I thank you for the answer - even if you think me a concern troll, it's an answer that a lot more people should be looking at.
strolls gleefully through the thread handing everyone creme-coated cupcakes covered with red, white, and blue sprinkles. The words "USA!" lovingly etched on top of it in icing.
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I will post once in this thread.
I am insulted by those of you who are comparing those who are celebrating the death of arguably the epitome of evil in our day to those who celebrated the deaths of 1000s of innocents after 9/11.
There is no comparison, they are not related and you insult the 1000s of innocent victims by even doing such a comparison.
Bin Laden death was justified; those who are celebrating his death are justified in doing so, just as the millions who celebrated Hitler’s death. When a Man of such Evil leaves our world it is times to celebrate that departure in your own way (or not if you choose not to) not argue among each other and compare us to those that celebrate death of the innocent.