I have now added 7th level spells. Please keep in mind that I am not covering arcane spells already covered by Treantmonk in his excellent guide for wizards.
Again thank you for your work.
Keep in mind that some spells might need new rating for the witch, since the witch might have some better choices (hex, patron spell).
Again thank you for your work.
Keep in mind that some spells might need new rating for the witch, since the witch might have some better choices (hex, patron spell).
I am happy to adjust spells if people think I have rated them incorrectly and they can justify why they should be re-rated.
I have now added 7th level spells. Please keep in mind that I am not covering arcane spells already covered by Treantmonk in his excellent guide for wizards.
Grrr.. I do not have permission to access this file again.
I don't know why Google Docs has done this. I have reconfirmed share access for you. If you have any idea how I can keep the permissions open permanently, please let me know.
No permission to access document.
No permission to access document.
I think I've finally fixed it (fingers crossed).
Go to Guide to Witches.
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Not to nitpick, but the Shakespearean phrase is "Double, double, toil and trouble/fire burn and cauldron bubble." Hubba Bubba is a brand of bubble gum, but with no direct witchy links AFAIK.
Not to nitpick, but the Shakespearean phrase is "Double, double, toil and trouble/fire burn and cauldron bubble." Hubba Bubba is a brand of bubble gum, but with no direct witchy links AFAIK.
Lol. Sounds like you are a Thespian style roleplayer. I remember seeing Macbeth as I movie on tv when I was a kid. I think it would have been awesome if one of the witches after greeting him, "Hail Macbeth!", had then blown a bubble that popped in his face.
That would be brokenly over powered. As it is it's still dangerously powerful.
Look at it this way, let's take a few CR 10 opponents and see how effective it would be against them.Fire Giant +9 will
Bebilith +7
Rakshasha +8At 10th level a perfectly average, non-optimized Witch should have DC's for their Hexes of about 23 (10 + 1/2 lvl + int mod (18base int +2 from level bonus + 4 from Three-fold aspect = +7 int mod)
That means, best case your opponent has a 30% chance of resisting your control BEFORE dealing with the -4 penalty from the evil eye you gave them and the roll twice penalty from your misfortune or a quickened Ill Omen. Optimized you'll be slinging around DC's approaching 30 and requiring them to roll 2 or 3 nat 20's to resist.
I'm not sure a witch with 18 starting Int is perfectly average and unoptimized. Starting your witch with 18 int is the definition of optimization, basically.
Also, your math is wrong. 10+1/2 lvl (5) +7 (Int) = 22, not 23.
Don't see where you are getting DC 30 at 10th level. I can see up to 26, assuming your DM allows you to take monster-only feats such as Ability Focus for your waxen image and allows you to buy Int-increasing items more powerful than guidelines suggest.
However, let's roll with it.
In your scenario, you spent
Precast: 4th level spell
Round 1: Evil Eye
Round 2: Misfortune (they get a save to negate and become immune) and move action Cackle
Round 3: Put Waxen Image on them (they get a save to prevent the effect sticking and become immune) and move action Cackle
Round 4: Exercise your Waxen Image control (they get another save to prevent taking the action, end the effect, and become immune) and move action Cackle
Assuming they fail both saves (and let's say they do, since you did put Evil Eye and Misfortune on them, and fair is fair) you just spent four rounds to make an enemy take a standard action.
I might note that putting up an quickened Ill Omen on a 10th level monster, it will generally be gone after his turn before your next rolls around. The fire giant or whatnot will go through your ill omen rerolls with his attacks on his turn.
Most fights between a CR 10 enemy and a 10th level party will be over by 3 rounds, if not 2. And even if that weren't true, spending four of your valuable turns to make one enemy take one standard action, with two (admittedly poor) chances to save against it (and one prior save to make their chances not as poor), is an atrociously lopsided use of your precious combat actions.
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That would be brokenly over powered. As it is it's still dangerously powerful.
Look at it this way, let's take a few CR 10 opponents and see how effective it would be against them.Fire Giant +9 will
Bebilith +7
Rakshasha +8At 10th level a perfectly average, non-optimized Witch should have DC's for their Hexes of about 23 (10 + 1/2 lvl + int mod (18base int +2 from level bonus + 4 from Three-fold aspect = +7 int mod)
That means, best case your opponent has a 30% chance of resisting your control BEFORE dealing with the -4 penalty from the evil eye you gave them and the roll twice penalty from your misfortune or a quickened Ill Omen. Optimized you'll be slinging around DC's approaching 30 and requiring them to roll 2 or 3 nat 20's to resist.I'm not sure a witch with 18 starting Int is perfectly average and unoptimized. Starting your witch with 18 int is the definition of optimization, basically.
Also, your math is wrong. 10+1/2 lvl (5) +7 (Int) = 22, not 23.
Don't see where you are getting DC 30 at 10th level. I can see up to 26, assuming your DM allows you to take monster-only feats such as Ability Focus for your waxen image and allows you to buy Int-increasing items more powerful than guidelines suggest.
However, let's roll with it.
In your scenario, you spent
Precast: 4th level spellRound 1: Evil Eye
Round 2: Misfortune (they get a save to negate and become immune) and move action Cackle
Round 3: Put Waxen Image on them (they get a save to prevent the effect sticking and become immune) and move action Cackle
Round 4: Exercise your Waxen Image control (they get another save to prevent taking the action, end the effect, and become immune) and move action CackleAssuming they fail both saves (and let's say they do, since you did put Evil Eye and Misfortune on them, and fair is fair) you just spent four rounds to make an enemy take a standard action.
I might note that putting up an quickened Ill Omen on a 10th level monster, it will...
A starting stat of 18 is about normal for classes that only have 1 stat to really worry about (starting stat of 20 is what I call optimized) and I stated APPROACHING DC 30 although 30 IS doable at 10th but is cheesy as heck.
(Starting Int of 20 (+5) + 10th lvl (+5) + Ability focus (+2) + Level bumps to Int (+1) + int boost headband +6 (+3) + Coven bonus (+4) {remember you get a +1 to lvl for every witch who has the coven hex and chooses to aid you, grab 8 low level witches and go to town. Leadership is broken)And as for your usage of Waxen Image yeah that would be a total waste of time to do it that way... that's why I wouldn't do it that way.
An important clarification: This is not an in combat ability, this is a START combat ability. If they are already swinging at your group you borked up. This is an ability you use while invisibly floating in the corner of the ceiling.
Round 1: Start casting Waxen Image on them no save this round since it's a full round action and doesn't provoke a save or break Invisibility till you finish. Best part can be done quietly, no verbal component.
Round 2: Imp familiar uses wand of Ill Omen on giant (He delayed to go before us)then we finish Misfortune (they must save twice (DC26) to negate and become immune) and then cast Teleport/Dimension Door/whatever and leave.
Now I have crazy control over any 8 of the Giant's actions for the foreseeable future. There is no time limit on this hex and there is no range at which I have to be to exert it. Also there is no limit to the number of waxen images I can have active at any one time and if they make their save to resist obeying a command it doesn't remove the hex it just gives em 24 hours to worry about what I'll make em do next, I still get to use the remainder of the actions they owe me and I will make them suffer for dis-obeying me.
This hex is in the same grouping as Coven, Cauldron, Tongues, etc that sees it's biggest use as prep for combat.
For combat the best use is to use it on your own party members.
The fighter-types need to get in melee range before he can go full attack but doesn't have Pounce? use YOUR standard action to move him in range so when his initiative comes up he can full attack on round 1.
Rogue needs to get in flanking position to do damage but is out of movement take control and put him where you want him for free, or if someone gets paralyzed/knocked out/mind controlled, you simply move them wherever you want.
You are the Puppet Master, and this is a game of chess move your pieces.
Now If I wanted to actually end the fight instead of leaving then you use Evil Eye (Standard action, -4 saves) then move as far away as possible to avoid their response.
Round 3: Imp familiar uses wand of Ill Omen on giant again (no Save) Exercise your Waxen Image control (they get another save to prevent taking the action, needs to beat DC 30 twice now, impossible for them to make it) and move action Cackle
From this point on it's just torturing the Giant, if he's still alive next round you hit him with the misfortune to save the wand and let the meat sticks beat him to death. Which should be easy with him prone and broken from jumping through a window, (or a wall I'm not picky), down some stairs, whatever floats your boat.
For combat the best use is to use it on your own party members.
The fighter-types need to get in melee range before he can go full attack but doesn't have Pounce? use YOUR standard action to move him in range so when his initiative comes up he can full attack on round 1.
Rogue needs to get in flanking position to do damage but is out of movement take control and put him where you want him for free, or if someone gets paralyzed/knocked out/mind controlled, you simply move them wherever you want.
Okay, I still think Waxen Image is bad offensively (even comparing it to another save every round hex, Agony is just better since it stops the target from attacking at all, and won't take my future actions), but this is a pretty clever use that probably would never have occurred to me, and I can definitely see some major tactical applications. Nice.
IMO If you don't like optimization guides and want to only make snarky replies, don't read optimization guides.[snark]
I guess my Witch must be totally useless because she has the Cauldron and Healing hexes and has the Elemental Patron.I suppose I'll need to read the guide to make her look like every other witch will if everyone follows it's reccomendations.
[/snark]
+1
GREAT work on this! I've thoroughly enjoyed it and it's opened my eyes to a lot of possibilities for playing witches.
One minor note, you might want to re-consider re-rating Hold Person, since witches get it as a 2nd level spell, not 3rd like wizards/sorcerers. It's still not great, but a lot better as a 2nd level than 3rd. Personally I'd rate it green.
GREAT work on this! I've thoroughly enjoyed it and it's opened my eyes to a lot of possibilities for playing witches.
One minor note, you might want to re-consider re-rating Hold Person, since witches get it as a 2nd level spell, not 3rd like wizards/sorcerers. It's still not great, but a lot better as a 2nd level than 3rd. Personally I'd rate it green.
It just so happens that I got to cast hold person in a session I played earlier this week as a witch. The important monster failed her saving throw (she was evil eye hexed as well) and it changed the whole encounter from difficult to a stroll in the park. I've included hold person now in the spell list and rated it green as you suggest.
Any chance of an update for UM?
Icy Prison is probably the new must have fort save or lose hex. Only 1save and it lasts multiple rounds. Better than agony.
Also.some good new patrons and spells....
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Well I have completed my review of the new Patrons from Ultimate magic and have found they make quite a difference for my witches now.
Caveat; my rating scale has one change on it, those patrons who simply provide spells that are already on the witch's spell lists get rated down. If you are in a game where you have a serious limitation on gaining new spells beyond the free ones at level up it may be more valuable to you but for me that's just a wasted option.
(Blue) Ancestors: An excellent choice for those interested in buffing the party or themselves for combat. Contains some of the most dependable wide ranging buffs from the divine spells.
2nd - Bless, 4th - Aid, 6th - Prayer, 8th - Blessing of Fervor**, 10th - Commune, 12th - Heroism, 14th - Refuge, 16th - Euphoric ranquility**, 18th - Choose Fate*.
(green) Death: A decent choice for CC & PD with a good selection of spells to destroy your enemies while letting you gather information you would normally need a cleric to get.
2nd - Deathwatch, 4th - Blessing of Courage and Life**, 6th Speak With Dead, 8th - Rest Eternal**, 10th - Suffocation**, 12th - Circle of Death, 14th - Finger of Death, 16th - Symbol of Death, 18th - Power Word: Kill.
(green) Enchantment: Though suffering from the same issues an enchanter would have this patron offers some excellent advantages to a CC focused on controlling enemies in battle instead of killing them.
2nd - Unnatural Lust*, 4th - Calm Emotions, 6th - Unadulterated Loathing*, 8th - Overwhelming Grief *, 10th - Dominate Person, 12th - Geas, 14th - Euphoric Tranquility**, 16th - Demand, 18th - Dominate Monster.
(Blue)Healing: PS obviously but allowing you to fully replace the dedicated healing cleric, especially if you take the Hedge Witch archetype.
2nd - Remove Fear, 4th - Lesser Restoration, 6th – Remove Disease,
8th - Restoration, 10th - Cleanse**, 12th - Pillar of life**, 14th - Greater Restoration, 16th - Mass Cure Critical Wounds, 18th - True Resurrection.
(red) Insanity: A horrible patron choice, most of these spells are already on your spell list and only one of them is more than situationally useful. CC may find a use for it but I doubt it.
2nd - Memory Lapse**, 4th - Hideous Laughter, 6th - Mad Hallucination*, 8th - Confusion, 10th - Mind Fog, 12th - Envious Urge*, 14th - Insanity, 16th - Symbol of insanity, 18th - Overwhelming Presence*.
(green) Light: Suprisingly good patron for CC, adding mostly new spells and several interesting direct damage options.
There is an issue however since the 18th level power is a duplicate of 16th and we are waiting for that typo to be addressed.
2nd - Dancing Lantern**, 4th - Continual Flame, 6th - Daylight,
8th - Rainbow Pattern*, 10th - Fire Snake**, 12th - Sirocco**, 14th - Sunbeam, 16th - Sunburst, 18th ?????.
(red) Moon: Pretty bad for a patron. the 2nd and 4th level spells are good but the rest are either on your list, have poor return for value or are just stupid spells.
2nd - Darkness, 4th - Darkvision, 6th - Owl’s Wisdom, 8th - Moonstruck**,10th - Aspect of the Wolf **, 12th - Control Water, 14th - Lunar Veil*, 16th - Horrid Wilting, 18th - Meteor Swarm.
(green) Occult: A more refined version of the old plague patron, this is more focused and well designed granting a PD some much needed minion options.
2nd - Detect Undead, 4th - Command Undead, 6th - Twilight Knife**,8th - Black Tentacles, 10th - Snake Staff **,12th - Create Undead, 14th - Waves of Exhaustion, 16th - Trap the Soul, 18th - Gate.
(orange) Portents: Not a bad option for PS, but it’s more focused on the spells you’d go to an NPC or keep on a scroll then an adventurer would use.
2nd - Ill-omen**, 4th - Locate Object, 6th - Blood Biography**, 8th - Divination, 10th - Contact Other Plane, 12th - Legend Lore, 14th - Vision, 16th - Moment of Prescience, 18th - Foresight.
(green) Spirits: Several strong options for the CC or PD witch with the ever popular invisibility and the excellent Planar Ally to keep the damage up. Strong travel options as well.
2nd - Ghostbane Dirge**, 4th - Invisibility, 6th - Speak with Dead,
8th - Spiritual Ally**, 10th - Mass Ghostbane dirge**, 12th - Shadow Walk, 14th - Ethereal Jaunt, 16th - Planar Ally, 18th - Etherealness.
(orange) Stars: Some strong spell choices but thewitch already gets them on their spell list and the PS will have taken them immediately instead of waiting a level for them, Pass on this.
2nd—faerie fire, 4th—dust of twilight**, 6th-guiding star**, 8th—wandering star motes**, 10th—dream, 12th—cloak of dreams**, 14th—circle of clarity*, 16th—euphoric tranquility**, 18th—astral projection.
(Blue)Time: Probably my new favorite Patron for PS or PD. The ever popular Haste, Threefold Aspect, Time Stop and Teleport makes for amazing options.
I personally believe the Silence was a mistake and was supposed to be Slow but either way it grants some serious battlefield control.
2nd-Ventriloquism, 4th-silence, 6th-haste, 8th- Threefold Aspect**, 10th-teleport, 12th-disintegrate, 14th-expend**, 16th-temporal stasis, 18th-time stop.
(red) Vengeance: Just bad, a collection of spells the witch either already gets are should never take. A waste of a cool patron name.
2nd- burning hands, 4th -burning gaze**, 6th- pain strike**, 8th- shout, 10th - symbol of pain, 12th - mass pain strike**,14th - phantasmal revenge**,16th - incendiary cloud, 18th - winds of vengeance**.
(red) Winter: If I could rate this lower then red I would. Full of spells you already get or have been nerfed to the ground or can be done better with a Hex. Let’s just pretend it doesn’t exist ok?
2nd - unshakable chill*, 4th - resist energy (cold only), 6th - ice storm, 8th - Wall of Ice, 10th - Cone of Cold, 12th - Freezing Sphere, 14th - Control Weather, 16th - Polar Ray, 18th - Polar Midnight*.
Well I have completed my review of the new Patrons from Ultimate magic and have found they make quite a difference for my witches now.
Caveat; my rating scale has one change on it, those patrons who simply provide spells that are already on the witch's spell lists get rated down. If you are in a game where you have a serious limitation on gaining new spells beyond the free ones at level up it may be more valuable to you but for me that's just a wasted option.
** spoiler omitted **...
Mathwei ap Niall, thanks for doing this. I will add it to the guide within the next few days.
Any chance of an update for UM?
Icy Prison is probably the new must have fort save or lose hex. Only 1save and it lasts multiple rounds. Better than agony.
Also.some good new patrons and spells....
I will review Icy Prison over the next few days and then add it to the guide.
I am not sure leadership should be mentioned under the coven hex as leadership makes most hex's stupidly good, heck leadership is just plain stupidly good, using it to highlight the coven hex will only make the hex seem better then it is.
I think the options for Vomit swarm and summon swarm should be separated: one thing the guide neglects to mention is that Vomit Swarm is only a standard. Also thank you for going into the witch in such detail. It is greatly appreciated.
That's a good pick up about Vomit Swarm vs Summon Swarm. I'll make sure to update the guide to reflect this in the next few days.
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I am not sure leadership should be mentioned under the coven hex as leadership makes most hex's stupidly good, heck leadership is just plain stupidly good, using it to highlight the coven hex will only make the hex seem better then it is.
Without mentioning the way Coven hex and Leadership interact then you are left with the Hex as seen in first impression and that's just not good.
This is a hex that REQUIRES you to have access to other witches and Hags without them it's worse than useless and Leadership is the fastest, cheapest, most efficient way to get that.As for the new hexes there are really only 4 below the grand hex level that are of any real use.
Poison Steep - the synergy with Beguiling Gift is awesome and since it does a pound of items for a day you will ALWAYS have poisoned candies to use (I like raisins myself, a pound of those will go a long way)
Prehensile Hair - Oh yes. A third hand that gives you a free reach attack with your int bonus added to damage is good enough but the ability to use 2 metamagic rods a round while still having a hand free to cast is just uber.
Ice Tomb - Just yes, it's a witch's joygasm wrapped in puppies and candy. It's better than a gorgons gaze for rendering an opponent useless and has a higher save DC too.
Witch's Brew - the only way to get past that 1 potion per day limit. Not as amazing as the other options but a solid working class ability that (depending on your GM's enforcement of the one magic item per day rule) can really improve your flexibility.
Honorable Mentions, several additions to the witch class have to be addressed.
Cook People - Evil beyond all doubt but the product is awesome. 1 HOUR buff on any or all stats, freedom from poison and a SMALL sized Homonculus servant ? Sign my up, I'll take the alignment hit for this plus it gives me something to do with all those bodies parties tend to leave lying around.
Also the 3 new Witch specific feats are an amazing boost to our classes main strength.
Accursed Hex - A second chance to affect someone with a hex is needed.
Split Hex - Get two targets on one hex is VERY needed and doubles the range of your hexes (affect two targets within 60 feat of you instead of 30) Makes cackle even stronger.
Spell Hex - Very potent and the only way to get an AoE hex effect. Remember your new hex is NOT a SU ability so spell resistance applies.
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Honestly, Poison Steep is just bad. =)
Beguiling Gift + Poison Steep = They get a will save and a fort save or else they take D3 CON DAMAGE.
ice Tomb is fantastic, and Witch's Brew is solid. But taking a feat to use an extra metamagic rod or a bad secondary attack (Prehensile Hair) or spending a 1st level spell so somebody can make 2 saves or take a minor debuff (Poison Steep) is sorta week.
I agree with your feat reviews, except that you should probably note that if you hex somebody 60 feet away from you, cackle will still only refresh things within 30 feet of you. Split Hex and Accursed Hex are both excellent.
The only issue with Accursed Hex is that it won't work on stuff like Fortune =)
-Cross
Poison steep is awesome, you're just missing a step. Remember poisons stack for duration and saving throws, give them a hand full of raisins (say 20) steeped in poison, he now has to make 20 fort saves and every time he fails one of them he takes D3 con damage immediately and the the rest get a stacking +2 to the DC to resist.
It's an auto-kill move.Here, read the blog post on poison:
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/tags/designTuesdays/v5748dyo5lc12
An extra free metamagic on a spell is anything but bad. Metamagic rocks and that secondary attack is better than you expect. Use it whenever someone moves to engage you, you threaten out 10 feet... trip them at range whenever they try to charge you.
Your BaB is bad but your Int is great and that bonus is applied to your trip attempts.
Split Hex works on cackle too, you refresh it on the guy 30 ft away and it will refresh it on the next one 30 feet away from him too.
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Poison steep is awesome, you're just missing a step. Remember poisons stack for duration and saving throws, give them a hand full of raisins (say 20) steeped in poison, he now has to make 20 fort saves and every time he fails one of them he takes D3 con damage immediately and the the rest get a stacking +2 to the DC to resist.
It's an auto-kill move.
Here, read the blog post on poison:
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/tags/designTuesdays/v5748dyo5lc12An extra free metamagic on a spell is anything but bad. Metamagic rocks and that secondary attack is better than you expect. Use it whenever someone moves to engage you, you threaten out 10 feet... trip them at range whenever they try to charge you.
Your BaB is bad but your Int is great and that bonus is applied to your trip attempts.Split Hex works on cackle too, you refresh it on the guy 30 ft away and it will refresh it on the next one 30 feet away from him too.
You're playing fast and loose with the rules. Is a handful of raisins one item or many? If it's one item, it only gives 1 fort save. If it's many items, you can't give it with beguiling gift. By RAW, and I would argue by RAI, this trick doesn't work, at all.
Guess we can agree to disagree on the usefulness of prehensile hair. You have crap BAB. Combat maneuvers are balanced such that if you have full BAB and a primary stat related to them and you take the feats for another +2 to +6, you only succeed 2 times in 3-ish. This is a waste of a hex, particularly because you're not going to pick it over the important ones (Evil Eye, Misfortune, Cackle, Slumber), so you won't get it until later, where your lower BAB hurts you more.
Finally, Split Hex does not work on cackle. Split Hex Reads:
"When you use one of your hexes (not a major hex or a grand hex) that targets a single creature, you can choose another creature within 30 feet of the first target to also be targeted by the hex."
Cackle affects any creature within 30 feet. It is not a...
I misspoke, it's not a handful it's a cupful or plateful or glassful of raisins. Important difference.
Doesn't matter whether the raisins are one item or many, the vessel that you deliver them in is the gift. Give them a cup of raisins and they will eat the raisins if it can be done in one action. Just like how you give someone a potion in a vial, they don't consume the vial just the contents of it. For food you usually just make a meal and poison each piece individually then assemble it into one piece.(The usual trick is to steep each piece of a sandwich separately then assemble it and use that, I just prefer cups of raisins myself)
If you choose to underestimate a 10 foot reach that's your choice I just see the possibilities with it. That trip attempt is an AoO I can make while hanging from the ceiling or flying over your head. that extra hand means I can never be tied up, can still cast while pinned, do touch spells at range, climb a wall while casting, etc.
It's usually my 2nd or 4th level hex choice.
And we will just have to disagree on the cackle, I read it as it doesn't affect an area it picks specific targets in that area to affect. And since it picks specific targets I find it a valid option for this feat.
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Look. It's up to you how you want to write your handbook. But I think it would probably be better if you went with the more conservative (Or "following the rules of the game" interpretation) of things. In general, handbook-writers should be the ones arguing _against_ ridiculous interpretations of fairly clear rules (see any thread with Treantmonk in it), not for them.-Cross
Wait, what? I thought it was c873788 that was the one writing the handbook? I thought Mathwei was just making suggestions to it.
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Poison Steep: C'mon. You realize how ridiculous that sounds, right? Does your DM let you poison every barb on an arrow with a different poison too? If so, I would recommend that you add "Minor Creation" as the best spell in the game. Create a million poisons, poison each millimeter of your weapons, instantly kill anything you hit.
It's silly. If you're going to write a handbook, you should probably rate things based on how the rules are likely to be interpreted. Or, frankly, how they are written. The rules are fairly clear.
Then again, the amount of silly interpretation involved in poison steep doesn't really compare to:
You: "I read it as it doesn't affect an area it picks specific targets in that area to affect."
Me: "Really. It's not an AOE, it just affects all the single targets in an AOE."
Split Hex: "targets a single creature"
Cackle: "Any creature that is within 30 feet"
Look. It's up to you how you want to write your handbook. But I think it would probably be better if you went with the more conservative (Or "following the rules of the game" interpretation) of things. In general, handbook-writers should be the ones arguing _against_ ridiculous interpretations of fairly clear rules (see any thread with Treantmonk in it), not for them.
-Cross
Snarkiness and an inability to read the rules as written (poison steep only works on what's eaten, not injury) will not get you far in this world.
All suggestions made are vetted to be rules legal (with reference links noted) and personal interpretation. If you do not choose to accept them in your game that is your prerogative, but leave the condescending tone and holier than thou attitude at the door.
Good Day.
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Honestly, Poison Steep is just bad. =)
Beguiling Gift + Poison Steep = They get a will save and a fort save or else they take D3 CON DAMAGE.
ice Tomb is fantastic, and Witch's Brew is solid. But taking a feat to use an extra metamagic rod or a bad secondary attack (Prehensile Hair) or spending a 1st level spell so somebody can make 2 saves or take a minor debuff (Poison Steep) is sorta week.
I agree with your feat reviews, except that you should probably note that if you hex somebody 60 feet away from you, cackle will still only refresh things within 30 feet of you. Split Hex and Accursed Hex are both excellent.
The only issue with Accursed Hex is that it won't work on stuff like Fortune =)
-Cross
Poison steep is awesome, you're just missing a step. Remember poisons stack for duration and saving throws, give them a hand full of raisins (say 20) steeped in poison, he now has to make 20 fort saves and every time he fails one of them he takes D3 con damage immediately and the the rest get a stacking +2 to the DC to resist.
It's an auto-kill move.
Here, read the blog post on poison:
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/tags/designTuesdays/v5748dyo5lc12An extra free metamagic on a spell is anything but bad. Metamagic rocks and that secondary attack is better than you expect. Use it whenever someone moves to engage you, you threaten out 10 feet... trip them at range whenever they try to charge you.
Your BaB is bad but your Int is great and that bonus is applied to your trip attempts.Split Hex works on cackle too, you refresh it on the guy 30 ft away and it will refresh it on the next one 30 feet away from him too.
I actually have to retract this example of Poison usage, missed a line in the re-write. The stacking ingested poison is an incorrect usage, that trick only works on injected poisons, I misread the injected as ingested.
Stacking the ingested poison simply adds +2 to the DC of the fort save for each dose. This drops the usefulness of this hex a bit. It still guarantees a successful poisoning and the con damage earned by this spell but it's no longer the insta-kill I thought it was.
I still consider it a useful trick but not at the blue ranking. Now I will give it a green rating if you focus on your cauldron and the options you can do with it or Orange if you don't. It can still be devastating move but will require 2-3 rounds to defeat an enemy now.
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As ridiculous as it is, I think Mathwei's use of Poison Steep may be legal.
"Poison Steep (Sp): The witch can use her cauldron to brew a foul toxin in which she can steep fruits and other delicious edibles, transforming them so that when eaten, they have the same effect as a poison spell. Brewing the toxin and then steeping the food takes 1 hour in total; steeping can affect up to 1 pound of food. The food is poisoned for 24 hours, and the poison cannot be transferred to other objects. The food tastes normal, but magic detects it as poisonous. The witch must have the cauldron hex to select this hex."
So what does the RAW say? You can poison more than one piece of fruit, up to 1 pound worth. What it does not say is whether that 1 pound of food can be split up and used as multiple doses of poison. Mathwei obviously believes that the pieces can be applied separately and independently of one another. It is an ambiguous interpretation but there is nothing to directly counter it.
So then we move on to Beguiling Gift:
"You offer an object to an adjacent creature, and entice it into using or consuming the proffered item. If the target fails its Will save, it immediately takes the offered object, dropping an already held object if necessary. On its next turn, it consumes or dons the object, as appropriate for the item in question. For example, an apple would be eaten, a potion consumed, a ring put on a finger, and a sword wielded in a free hand. If the target is physically unable to accept the object, the spell fails. The subject is under no obligation to continue consuming or using the item once the spell's duration has expired, although it may find a cursed item difficult to be rid of."
So RAW this spell says that you may offer an item and if they fail the save, they must attempt to use it, including consuming the item. Mathwei suggests offering a glass/bowl with the poisoned fruit. So RAW, they must attempt to use the bowl.
But wait! One does not consume a bowl right? If you offer them the bowl, they will use it for its function, holding stuff! That is contradicted by the potion clause. It says if you offer a potion, it will be consumed, but in order to do so you have to offer it in a vial right? So if you consume the potion if offered the vial, why not consume the fruit if offered a bowl? That is Mathwei's interpretation.
I can provide an alternative interpretation. When you use Beguiling Gift on a potion, you cast the spell on the liquid and the target simply uses the vial as a means to take possession of the liquid. If this is the case, you cast Beguiling Gift on only a single piece of fruit and the bowl is only a means to take possession of the fruit.
As for Cackle and Split Hex, I agree with Cross.
Wait, what? I thought it was c873788 that was the one writing the handbook? I thought Mathwei was just making suggestions to it.
I consider the guide to be a community project and am happy to include and acknowledge input where there is general consensus on each contribution.
Mathwei, could you please include colours for those new hexes you've listed taking into account comments from others in this post. Thanks in advance. Like I mentioned earlier, I will add these contributions to the guide when I get time with acknowledgements.
Without mentioning the way Coven hex and Leadership interact then you are left with the Hex as seen in first impression and that's just not good.
This is a hex that REQUIRES you to have access to other witches and Hags without them it's worse than useless and Leadership is the fastest, cheapest, most efficient way to get that.
True but saying something is good on the merit that it works well with the most powerful feat in the game doesn't really give it very many points.
Hell level 6 commoners are fantastic if they take leadership and grab a PC buddy.
Considering leadership is rarely available it puts the hex in the wrong light. Although I wonder if you wish yourself into a hag and made homunculus copies of yourself (pre-wish) if that counts toward this hex....
Edit: and your all forgetting the other useful features of prehensile hair, no fighter around? that's okay my STR 24 hair can break me out of here, need to climb a wall? STR 24 hair to the rescue!
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Wait, what? I thought it was c873788 that was the one writing the handbook? I thought Mathwei was just making suggestions to it.I consider the guide to be a community project and am happy to include and acknowledge input where there is general consensus on each contribution.
Mathwei, could you please include colours for those new hexes you've listed taking into account comments from others in this post. Thanks in advance. Like I mentioned earlier, I will add these contributions to the guide when I get time with acknowledgements.
Poison Steep - Solid green if you focus on it as a main tactic otherwise orange. It's great but requires several steps to make it work.
Prehensile Hair - Solid green choice. Not the first hex you take but one you should take as soon as you get the big 4 out of the way.
Ice Tomb - Blue. and now that it exists downgrade Agony to green this is better in all ways.
Witch's Brew - Solid green if you focus on cauldron and potions as a main tactic otherwise orange.
Honorable Mentions, several additions to the witch class have to be addressed.
Cook People - Blue, if you can take it get it. Too good to pass up.
@Shadow of death, if you don't have access to leadership or a dependable group of witches then Coven is a sub-par hex. It wont function at all without at least another witch and preferably a Hag.
and I wish homonculus worked that way but alas it doesn't.
@Shadow of death, if you don't have access to leadership or a dependable group of witches then Coven is a sub-par hex. It wont function at all without at least another witch and preferably a Hag.
and I wish homonculus worked that way but alas it doesn't.
I coulda sworn there was a spell that copied creatures at like half their hit die/abilities.
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I coulda sworn there was a spell that copied creatures at like half their hit die/abilities.
@Shadow of death, if you don't have access to leadership or a dependable group of witches then Coven is a sub-par hex. It wont function at all without at least another witch and preferably a Hag.
and I wish homonculus worked that way but alas it doesn't.
Simulacrum, and that would work. Unfortunately it's not on the witch's spell list and scrolls of it are expensive. That is an option for getting some benefit out of it though...
Simulacrum, and that would work. Unfortunately it's not on the witch's spell list and scrolls of it are expensive. That is an option for getting some benefit out of it though...I coulda sworn there was a spell that copied creatures at like half their hit die/abilities.
@Shadow of death, if you don't have access to leadership or a dependable group of witches then Coven is a sub-par hex. It wont function at all without at least another witch and preferably a Hag.
and I wish homonculus worked that way but alas it doesn't.
So is wish to turn yourself into a hag, seems like this is more of a grand hex they didn't want to make you spend a grand hex on. At high levels it becomes do-able and freaking awesome.
How do you all feel about Eldritch Heritage/Arcane Bloodline for a Witch?
I was thinking about picking up a bonded ring (and making it a ring of invisibility), and then using Improved Eldritch Heritage to pick up a few spells Witches normally dont have access to... maybe Planar Binding and a couple others?
Any other suggestions on bonded item/spells?
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How do you all feel about Eldritch Heritage/Arcane Bloodline for a Witch?
I was thinking about picking up a bonded ring (and making it a ring of invisibility), and then using Improved Eldritch Heritage to pick up a few spells Witches normally dont have access to... maybe Planar Binding and a couple others?
Any other suggestions on bonded item/spells?
Unfortunately that doesn't work.
This line in the Bloodline power prevents it.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.
How do you all feel about Eldritch Heritage/Arcane Bloodline for a Witch?
I was thinking about picking up a bonded ring (and making it a ring of invisibility), and then using Improved Eldritch Heritage to pick up a few spells Witches normally dont have access to... maybe Planar Binding and a couple others?
Any other suggestions on bonded item/spells?
Unfortunately that doesn't work.
This line in the Bloodline power prevents it.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.
Ouch, looked right by it. Sad day.
That makes a really steep price for extra spells. Ah well.
Thanks for pointing that out!
How do you all feel about Eldritch Heritage/Arcane Bloodline for a Witch?
My changeling witch is taking the accursed bloodline via eldritch heritage.....and I feel pretty good about it ;)
How do you all feel about Eldritch Heritage/Arcane Bloodline for a Witch?My changeling witch is taking the accursed bloodline via eldritch heritage.....and I feel pretty good about it ;)
Indeed? Thats pretty awesome.
Any other bloodlines that work well for witches?
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I'm really not seeing the perk for taking Eldritch Heritage for a witch.
Admittedly the blast abilities s(ray of acid, frost, etc) grant an extra option for you but they seem universally sub-par to me.
Two feats for a single ability you can use 1-4 times a day (charisma really is almost a dump stat for Witches) that doesn't do much seems less then worthwhile. Especially when I can use those two feats to grab two more unlimited use hexes that scale of my primary stat.
What perks do you see that makes this a worthwhile avenue for your witch?
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Archetype Review
Beast-bonded
Overall I have to give this archetype a Blue status on the condition that it’s lvl 10 ability will probably be nerfed to oblivion soon. Until then however this is an amazing Archetype.
Transfer Feats (Ex):
Not an ability I expect to see used much normally but if you plan to make strong use of your 10th level power then it can be very useful but requires serious planning and sacrifice.
Enhanced Familiar (Su):
Nice perk but rather expensive for what you get for it, the biggest advantage is it lets you grab Improved familiar a level early, downside is you don’t have a feat at that level so blah.
Familiar Form (Sp):
It would be good except at this point you’ve more than likely switched out your familiar for a more useful one from the improved familiar list. Now if you can hold off till 11th level for the improved familiar this ability stays useful till then but that’s up to you.
Twin Soul (Su): At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body. The two souls share the surviving body peaceably, can communicate freely, and both retain their ability to think and reason. The host may allow the guest soul to take over the body temporarily or reclaim it as a move action. They can persist in this state indefinitely, or the guest can return to its own body (if available) by touch, transfer into a suitable vessel (such as a clone), or take over another body as if using magic jar (with no receptacle). This replaces the witch’s major hex at 10th-level.
This is the only reason why we go Beast Bonded. A free get out of death ability for you and your familiar that gives you an at-will Magic Jar power using the highest scaling DC you can get. Add to that the free resistances to mind control powers (it’s the familiars body, if you get controlled the familiar just takes over) while riding the familiar, the superior action economy and all the extra powers you get.
If you did the smart thing and took the Homonculus as your improved familiar add on to it the extra feats, hit points, immunities, construct traits, etc. This is an amazing form of serial immortality and combat superiority.
Once this power has been nerfed then drop this back down to a Red/Orange choice, you give up a lot more then you gain from it.
Gravewalker
Overall this Archetype rates a green recommendation. The loss of the familiar is a serious blow to your action economy and the low range of your Aura of desecration at low levels really puts you at risk. By mid level however this has become a very strong undead themed archetype.
Spell Poppet:
This is a bit of a mish mash, you give up the extra actions and abilities a familiar gives you but you get the ability to use touch spells at range (up to 70 ft away) but you won’t be cackling that round so it’s a matter of priorities and changes for each witch’s preference.
Aura of Desecration (Su):
Eventually a nice ability when used with Spell Poppet and your undead hordes.
Bonethrall (Su):
Potent and potentially the best arcane ability in the game that affects undead. The players who wish to do the master of the undead hordes would do well to look into this archetype
Possess Undead (Sp):
Well worth giving up the hex for this power.
Hedge Witch
Hurray you can now play the heal-bot. Though I don’t like this particular Archetype it does do it’s job extremely well and is worthy of it’s blue rating.
Spontaneous Healing (Su):
This is the go-to reason for taking this archetype, maintain all your usability without having to mem those healing spells you were after.
Empathic Healing (Su):
By 8th level just cast remove poison or disease, this is a wasted ability.
Sea Witch
Orange, at best. It’s abilities can be replaced with a compass or a few first level spells.
Skip it.
Know Direction (Sp):
Sea Creature Empathy (Ex):
Special Mentions:
Hexcrafter
Now admittedly this is a Magus archetype but it’s functionally just a witch who focuses on martial combat/spells. With full (but delayed) access to all of the witch’s Hex’s, some of the unique spells and superior survivability & action economy this is an option most witch players could do worse then to look into. For what it does I have to rate it a solid green option.
Hex Magus (Su): At 4th level, the hexcrafter magus gains access to a small number of witch’s hexes (see the Advanced Player’s Guide). The hexcrafter magus picks one hex from the witch’s hex class feature. He gains the benefit of or uses that hex as if he were a witch of a level equal to his magus level. This feature replaces spell recall.
Hex Arcana: A hexcrafter gains access to the following magus arcana, or may select any witch hex in place of a magus arcana. At 12th level, the hexcrafter may select a hex or major hex in place of a magus arcana. At 20th level, a hexcrafter can select a hex, major hex, or grand hex in place of a magus arcana. He cannot select any hex or arcana more than once.
Accursed Strike (Sp): A hexcrafter magus who can cast bestow curse, greater curse, or any spell with the curse descriptor can deliver these prepared spells using the spellstrike ability, even if the spells are not touch attack spells.
Spells: A hexcrafter magus adds the following spells to his magus spell list: bestow curse, major curse, and all other spells of 6th level or lower that have the curse descriptor.