I would personally rate Guidance higher. Its a trivial to cast almost always stacking buff to any skill check outside of combat. Comparing it to Fortune is a poor choice; you can benefit from Fortune once per day. Guidance can literally apply to every skill check your party makes outside of combat.Good point I forgot about the once per day limit on fortune. I went ahead and adjusted it a little thanks for the input.
Also, I may be blind: did you miss Ill Omen?
I dont know that its necessarily a great level 1 spell AT level 1, but its utility uses are really great.
Its a No Save spell that forces a reroll per 5(I think) caster levels on the target, which makes it IDEAL for wandage, especially from a familiar. Not quite up to the level of Persistent Spell or Misfortune, but a whole lot cheaper and very effective against targets without SR. And I can't think of any reason it doesn't stack with those, either.
Seems like it could be potent with Quicken too, if only to put through something stronger; there some delicious irony to using Ill Omen to stick a Misfortune on a target.
Its a level one spell I have yet to use from a spell slot that my witch still gets a TON of use from.
Ill Omen is basicly a mini-misfortune. It's worse alright, only lasts a single roll, can't be extended and technically be removed with a move action.
But Misfortune can be resisted and then you can't use it for 24h. Having Ill Omen for those cases might not be bad.
Also it's pretty thematic for a witch. Not 4 star, maybe not even 3, as there are other spells more useful, but 2 at least, as there are situations when its useful. (or useful to have a scroll of it)
Also, I may be blind: did you miss Ill Omen?
Sure didn't and its a great spell imo
Your feedback is most welcome. Regarding the spells, if you feel that some of the excluded spells covered by Treantmonk should have a different rating for witches, write them up and I will add them to the guide.
I will review your other input as well as people's comments on your input over the next few days and then update the Guide accordingly when I get time.
All spells he already put in the guide were omitted and I figured I may as well throw in the other spells whose ratings I didn't change while I was at it.
Mage Armor*** - Boost AC (works against touch attacks as well).
While the three stars are ok, the info on touch attacks is wrong, or at least misleading. Mage Armor does NOT work against touch attacks, since it provides an Armor Bonus (which is ignored by touch attacks).
ONLY the touch attacks of incorporeal creatures (like shadows) can be stopped by Mage Armor since it's a Force Effect.
See spoiler for the RAW.
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.
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Ill Omen is basicly a mini-misfortune. It's worse alright, only lasts a single roll, can't be extended and technically be removed with a move action.
But Misfortune can be resisted and then you can't use it for 24h. Having Ill Omen for those cases might not be bad.
Also it's pretty thematic for a witch. Not 4 star, maybe not even 3, as there are other spells more useful, but 2 at least, as there are situations when its useful. (or useful to have a scroll of it)
Are we looking at the same spell ?
Ill Omen is an awesome spell especially as a wand for a familiar.It lasts multiple rounds, affects up to 5 re-rolls, guaranteed to hinder your opponent, they either have to re-roll the next check or hold their action till you go to have a chance to resist it. Not to mention lets you not worry about using misfortune yourself and really ups your action economy.
I ALWAYS take this spell.
It costs a move action which can only be done on their turn so they can't resist it unless they use a readied action. This prevents them from ever full attacking if they are worried about what you can do.
While the three stars are ok, the info on touch attacks is wrong, or at least misleading. Mage Armor does NOT work against touch attacks, since it provides an Armor Bonus (which is ignored by touch attacks).
ONLY the touch attacks of incorporeal creatures (like shadows) can be stopped by Mage Armor since it's a Force Effect.
Ah I see it was a little confusing thanks for clearing that up.
Are we looking at the same spell ?
Ill Omen is an awesome spell especially as a wand for a familiar.It lasts multiple rounds, affects up to 5 re-rolls, guaranteed to hinder your opponent, they either have to re-roll the next check or hold their action till you go to have a chance to resist it. Not to mention lets you not worry about using misfortune yourself and really ups your action economy.
I ALWAYS take this spell.It costs a move action which can only be done on their turn so they can't resist it unless they use a readied action. This prevents them from ever full attacking if they are worried about what you can do.
Yes, we're talking about the same spell.
And yeah, I kinda forgot about the part that you get additional rerolls for every 5 levels.Misfortune however lasts theoretically indefinitely (with Cackle) and affects all rolls in that time.
I don't think they stack, so that you have to roll 4 times and take the worst - so as long as you can use Misfortune on them, you should use that instead of Ill Omen.
However you're right of course, it's great for a wand for a familiar. That way you can debuff more enemies per round.
It's still not 4 stars, but i could agree to 3.
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Are we looking at the same spell ?
Ill Omen is an awesome spell especially as a wand for a familiar.It lasts multiple rounds, affects up to 5 re-rolls, guaranteed to hinder your opponent, they either have to re-roll the next check or hold their action till you go to have a chance to resist it. Not to mention lets you not worry about using misfortune yourself and really ups your action economy.
I ALWAYS take this spell.It costs a move action which can only be done on their turn so they can't resist it unless they use a readied action. This prevents them from ever full attacking if they are worried about what you can do.
Yes, we're talking about the same spell.
And yeah, I kinda forgot about the part that you get additional rerolls for every 5 levels.Misfortune however lasts theoretically indefinitely (with Cackle) and affects all rolls in that time.
I don't think they stack, so that you have to roll 4 times and take the worst - so as long as you can use Misfortune on them, you should use that instead of Ill Omen.However you're right of course, it's great for a wand for a familiar. That way you can debuff more enemies per round.
It's still not 4 stars, but i could agree to 3.
Uhmm... it does stack with Misfortune, one's a mind affecting compulsion the other is an untyped effect.
You use it to get the evil eye on to the hard target at full strength keeping you from needing to cackle the following round opening up that move action to do something else. THEN you hit them with the misfortune or SoD.It's a 1-2-3 combo that you can rattle off in 2 rounds instead of three. Witch's spend too much time within 30' and need to be as efficient and quick as possible.
It's a 1-2-3 combo that you can rattle off in 2 rounds instead of three. Witch's spend too much time within 30' and need to be as efficient and quick as possible.
Allia Thren pointed out the very noteworthy and effective tatic of using a combat trained mount (most easilly acquired from the mount spell) to move up so that the witch can cackle, misforune, evil eye or cast and then use the mount's second move action to get a little farther back.
The importance of the move action is one of the reasons my party is pushing me to take the quickdraw feat (is it in the guide?).
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It's a 1-2-3 combo that you can rattle off in 2 rounds instead of three. Witch's spend too much time within 30' and need to be as efficient and quick as possible.Allia Thren pointed out the very noteworthy and effective tatic of using a combat trained mount (most easilly acquired from the mount spell) to move up so that the witch can cackle, misforune, evil eye or cast and then use the mount's second move action to get a little farther back.
The importance of the move action is one of the reasons my party is pushing me to take the quickdraw feat (is it in the guide?).
Mounts have always been a great option for witch's and one I have always recommended but it doesn't change the fact that you still have to move into charge range, a simple readied action can ruin your day.
The less time you can spend in range the better it'll be for you. Using this spell in a wand for your familiar will let you get that SoD off in 1 or 2 rounds instead of 3+ without it.Quickdraw is a wasted feat for you, it only works with weapons (no wands, rods or staves) so unless you plan to be a melee Witch don't bother taking it.
Yes, I pointed out the risk of a readied charge in that post. If you work together with your group, and manage to keep an ally between you and dangerous enemies at all time, they can't charge.
Of course that's not always possible and requires alot of teamwork.
What I meant by stacking is something else than you meant I think.
Cast Ill Omen from familiar - say we're level 5+ so it affects 2 rolls
Hex Misfortune on it - takes the lowest result of 2 rolls for his safe.
So far no problem.
Enemy tries to hit someone now on his turn
Rolls a d20 - which triggers the 2nd use of Ill omen, turning it into 2 d20 rolls.
Each of those d20 rolls trigger Misfortune, turning them into 2 d20 rolls each, taking the worst as the result for the Ill Omen roll.
So effectively the enemy would roll 4 times for a single d20, taking the worst. That's what I meant by "stacking them". I don't think that works.
Quickdraw is a wasted feat for you, it only works with weapons (no wands, rods or staves) so unless you plan to be a melee Witch don't bother taking it.
Wands ok i am with you but i believe that you are wrong on the rods and staves, staves are quarterstaves (which is a weapon) and rods are maces or clubs (both are weapons), still i agree that the quick draw feat is pretty much wasted to the witch.
Ok I did the 0 and 1st level spells I figured I'd post here and get some feedback before I go on any further
Ok, I have copied in your spells wholesale into the guide. Please read and review to make sure I have not made any errors.
Dude: gotta say- Split Hex. BEST. WITCH FEAT. EVER.
Yes, it's very good. That's why it gets 4 stars in the guide.
Mage Armor*** - Boost AC (works against touch attacks as well).While the three stars are ok, the info on touch attacks is wrong, or at least misleading. Mage Armor does NOT work against touch attacks, since it provides an Armor Bonus (which is ignored by touch attacks).
ONLY the touch attacks of incorporeal creatures (like shadows) can be stopped by Mage Armor since it's a Force Effect.
See spoiler for the RAW.
** spoiler omitted **
I have re-worded it to read "works against incorporeal touch attacks as well".
Mounts have always been a great option for witch's and one I have always recommended but it doesn't change the fact that you still have to move into charge range, a simple readied action can ruin your day.
The less time you can spend in range the better it'll be for you. Using this spell in a wand for your familiar will let you get that SoD off in 1 or 2 rounds instead of 3+ without it.
I am not sure what format, comments or section Mounts should go into the guide. Perhaps a tactics section could be started. I'll wait until we get some clear consensus from you all before proceeding any further with this.
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Yes, I pointed out the risk of a readied charge in that post. If you work together with your group, and manage to keep an ally between you and dangerous enemies at all time, they can't charge.
Of course that's not always possible and requires alot of teamwork.What I meant by stacking is something else than you meant I think.
Cast Ill Omen from familiar - say we're level 5+ so it affects 2 rolls
Hex Misfortune on it - takes the lowest result of 2 rolls for his safe.So far no problem.
Enemy tries to hit someone now on his turn
Rolls a d20 - which triggers the 2nd use of Ill omen, turning it into 2 d20 rolls.
Each of those d20 rolls trigger Misfortune, turning them into 2 d20 rolls each, taking the worst as the result for the Ill Omen roll.So effectively the enemy would roll 4 times for a single d20, taking the worst. That's what I meant by "stacking them". I don't think that works.
You're right, it doesn't work that way.
With the stacking rules currently being used you would just get 1 extra roll for that D20 check in addition to the re-roll from ill-omen.So a target hit with ill omen and then misfortune would have to roll 3 times for that first check (once as normal, once more for ill-omen and another for Misfortune).
@c873788 I'd personally avoid a tactics section, would lead to a lot of bloat and rules interpretations issues. Maybe just like the guide standards we create 2-3 builds that show off the standard possibilities the class excels at (De-Buffer, SoD specialist and Heal-bot) to explain how the class works.
I got the second level spells
2nd-Level Witch Spells
Alter Self**- A spell that grants you either a minor str or dex bonus and a potential disguise. Real selling feature is that you get abilities like darkvision, swim or scent for 1min/level.
Augury* - Am I missing something with this spell? Make a roll (which you won't know the results of) to find out if an action in the very near future (30mins) will have good or bad results. Usually you can judge for yourself how events are going to unfold and even then why waste a spell just to gain some vague and possibly false information.
Blindness/Deafness** - Permanant SoL and you pick one or the other upon casting.
Blood Transcription** - A pretty creative way to add more spells to your familiar. It doesn't rely on saves so this is a spell I carry one or two scrolls of before going into a dungeon. Note that it does not require the target to be humanoid, but it does have the evil descriptor so cast sparingly.
Boiling Blood* - Either do one point of fire damage per round or give an orc the most minor buff for its level I can think of.
Daze Monster*** - Pretty good for the first few levels, but you know what im gonna say about HD limit right?
Death Knell* - A really unimpressive self buff. With hexes you can basically make this autosucceed, but why?
Delay Pain** - The ability damage/drain it ignores has to be from a pain effect so this makes this super circumstantial, but in that scenario it has a long duration. If you don't have a cleric or druid this is more benficial to have at hand.
Delay Poison** - Circumstantial? Long duration and before you have the capability of neutralizing poison this is a good spell to have a scroll of.
Detect Thoughts** - Only detects surface thoughs and requires concentration for a few rounds, but it can also detect where people/monsters are by detecting their thoughts.
Disfiguring Touch* - Pretty long duration and your choice of a variety of penalties which are pretty minor. Would be orange, but touch range kills it for me.
Enthrall* - Low HD limit, bonus on saves to unfriendly creatures, any hostile action ends spell and even if they fail their save they can try to heckle you to end the effect.
False Life* - Worse than CLW and one level higher? No thanks.
Fog Cloud** - Just stick with obscurring mist or wait one level for stinking cloud.
Gentle Repose** - A pretty circumstantial spell, but a money saver if the fighter dies in the dungeon and you need to get back to town in order to raise him.
Ghostly Disguise* - No good use jumps out at me and if you need a disguise just stick with alter self, at least with it you can get darkvision or scent.
Glitterdust*** - AoE blindness spell and outlines invisible creatures. Make sure you allies know what you are doing before you cast.
Haunting Mists**** - I love spells with partial affects and this spell is essentially fog cloud with minor wis damage and the shaken condition for as long as they remain in the mist.
Mad Hallucination*** - A decent SoL that works best on enemy casters (especially clerics and druids).
Masterwork Transformation* - Wait for magic weapon greater this spell is simply not worth it.
Miserable Pity* - Doesn't save you from indirect attacks (breath weapons and blasts) and monsters who succeed in attacking you (or warded creature) give their allies bonuses.
Pernicious Poison*** - No save and this stacks with evil eye a quick vomit swarm on the enemy or an alchemist with swift poisoning and the enemy will be taking a lot of ability damage. Nice duration and attempts to cure poison get a -4 as well.
Protective Penumbra* - Circumstantial, but even then so minor that it isn't worth the space in your familiar's brain. However, I suppose if you want to help the vampire this spell is pretty good.
Scare* - Only affects one HD more than cause fear. Just skip it.
See Invisibility** - Personally I'd stick with glitterdust so you allies can see as well, but this spell isn't bad.
Severed Fate* - Enemies usually don't have hero points in campaigns I play in, but if they are supposed to let me know.
Share Memory* - If the target has some useful information just charm or torture them.
Silk to Steel** - An ok way to get a small shield bonus, but short duration means its an in combat spell. +2 isn't all that impressive either.
Skinsend* - A cool spell, but the risks associated with detatching your skin just aren't worth it in my book.
Soothing Word** - If you have a paladin his Lay on Hands out classes this in every way. My main problem is it doesn't get rid of conditions or remove lesser versions.
Spectral Hand** - If you can get this as a prep before combat it makes a lot of touch attacks viable. Otherwise, the standard action time kills the rating.
Staggering Fall*** - Paired with a tripper this SoL is nasty. Without a tripper the rating drops to organge due to being circumstantial. Note the enemy gets a save every round.
Status** - A decent wand or scroll to have in order to monitor the rouge or ranger as they scout ahead. If it allowed communication this would be a lot better.
Steal Voice* - If this is your thing stick with forced quiet.
Summon Monster II ** - See Summon monster I
Summon Swarm*- Inferrior to vomit swarm in every way. Skip this.
Symbol of Mirroring* - I hate symbol spells. Long casting times and usually costly material components. Works like mirror image, but it can help enemies as well.
Touch of Idiocy** - If only this spell wasn't touch. That being said it reduces all 3 mental abilities with no save.
Unnatural Lust* - A really bad 1 round SoL. If 1 round SoLs sound appealing then scroll up to command.
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Unshakable Chill* - I'm not sure if this is worse than frostbite or not, either way this sucks.
Web**** - The witch's spell list is lacking battlefield control and this is a great battlefield control spell.
Web Shelter** - Almost a combat spell, but the webs low hp and casting time kill its potential as one.
Zone of Truth** - An ok SoL. Problem is you can't tell which creatures are affected and which aren't which means you are inclined to believe anything said in the spells range. This means creatures who save and identify the spell can intentionally mislead you. Only the witch's hexes save this from being red.
As always feedback is welcome and appreciaed.
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I got the second level spells
2nd-Level Witch Spells
Alter Self**- A spell that grants you either a minor str or dex bonus and a potential disguise. Real selling feature is that you get abilities like darkvision, swim or scent for 1min/level.
3 stars, it's a wonderful spell for deception and infiltration, great for disguises as well.Augury* - Am I missing something with this spell? Make a roll (which you won't know the results of) to find out if an action in the very near future (30mins) will have good or bad results. Usually you can judge for yourself how events are going to unfold and even then why waste a spell just to gain some vague and possibly false information.
It's a ask the DM what's on the other side of this door spell. At the level you get it it's about 75% to know if your plan is flawed and it never gives you bad advice. Definitely a good spell 2-3 stars based on build.Blindness/Deafness** - Permanant SoL and you pick one or the other upon casting.
Have you looked at the penalties permanent blindness gives an opponent? 4-5 starsBlood Transcription** - A pretty creative way to add more spells to your familiar. It doesn't rely on saves so this is a spell I carry one or two scrolls of before going into a dungeon. Note that it does not require the target to be humanoid, but it does have the evil descriptor so cast sparingly.
Decent but remember without scribe scroll it's pointless.Boiling Blood* - Either do one point of fire damage per round or give an orc the most minor buff for its level I can think of.
Daze Monster*** - Pretty good for the first few levels, but you know what im gonna say about HD limit right?
Death Knell* - A really unimpressive self buff. With hexes you can basically make this autosucceed, but why?
up to 50% in bonus hit points an increase in caster level (which boosts all your hexes/spells DC) and a stat bump is minor to you? 3 starsDelay Pain** - The ability damage/drain it ignores has to be from a pain effect so this makes this super circumstantial, but in that scenario it has a long duration. If you don't have a cleric or druid this is more benficial to have at hand.
Delay Poison** - Circumstantial? Long duration and before you have the capability of neutralizing poison this is a good spell to have a scroll of.
Detect Thoughts** - Only detects surface thoughs and requires concentration for a few rounds, but it can also detect where people/monsters are by detecting their thoughts.
Disfiguring Touch* - Pretty long duration and your choice of a variety of penalties which are pretty minor. Would be orange, but touch range kills it for me.
Never concern yourself with touch range, that's what reach spell, familiars and Prehinsile hair hex are there for.Enthrall* - Low HD limit, bonus on saves to unfriendly creatures, any hostile action ends spell and even if they fail their save they can try to heckle you to end the effect.
Uhmm did you look at the total affected? You can enthrall a city at once. It's the ultimate party wide sneaking spell, 2-3 stars.False Life* - Worse than CLW and one level higher? No thanks.
It's free extra Hit Points in addition to your normal total that lasts for hours. Cast it every day. 3-4 stars.Fog Cloud** - Just stick with obscurring mist or wait one level for stinking cloud.
Fog cloud is at range, obscuring mist affects you and your party. 3 starsGentle Repose** - A pretty circumstantial spell, but a money saver if the fighter dies in the dungeon and you need to get back to town in order to raise him.
Ghostly Disguise* - No good use jumps out at me and if you need a disguise just stick with alter self, at least with it you can get darkvision or scent.
Glitterdust*** - AoE blindness spell and outlines invisible creatures. Make sure you allies know what you are doing before you cast.
Haunting Mists**** - I love spells with partial affects and this spell is essentially fog cloud with minor wis damage and the shaken condition for as long as they remain in the mist.
Mad Hallucination*** - A decent SoL that works best on enemy casters (especially clerics and druids).
Masterwork Transformation* - Wait for magic weapon greater this spell is simply not worth it.
Look at the duration, you take any weapon turn it permanently into masterwork and then enchant it. Makes the crafting rules work for you.
2-3 starsMiserable Pity* - Doesn't save you from indirect attacks (breath weapons and blasts) and monsters who succeed in attacking you (or warded creature) give their allies bonuses.
You read it wrong, read it again.
It's a higher level version of Sanctuary you can cast on others. 2-3 stars.Pernicious Poison*** - No save and this stacks with evil eye a quick vomit swarm on the enemy or an alchemist with swift poisoning and the enemy will be taking a lot of ability damage. Nice duration and attempts to cure poison get a -4 as well.
Protective Penumbra* - Circumstantial, but even then so minor that it isn't worth the space in your familiar's brain. However, I suppose if you want to help the vampire this spell is pretty good.
2 stars, it also gives you a +2 save bonus vs light based attacks and sun exposure (sun burn, heat stroke, desert conditions, etc)Scare* - Only affects one HD more than cause fear. Just skip it.
It affects multiple targets and lasts longer. 3 starsSee Invisibility** - Personally I'd stick with glitterdust so you allies can see as well, but this spell isn't bad.
Severed Fate* - Enemies usually don't have hero points in campaigns I play in, but if they are supposed to let me know.
Share Memory* - If the target has some useful information just charm or torture them.
Use it to give AND get AND review any memory you or another target has. Great for teleporters and spies. 3 starsSilk to Steel** - An ok way to get a small shield bonus, but short duration means its an in combat spell. +2 isn't all that impressive either.
Skinsend* - A cool spell, but the risks associated with detatching your skin just aren't worth it in my book.
Soothing Word** - If you have a paladin his Lay on Hands out classes this in every way. My main problem is it doesn't get rid of conditions or remove lesser versions.
Spectral Hand** - If you can get this as a prep before combat it makes a lot of touch attacks viable. Otherwise, the standard action time kills the rating.
Better than you think, look at it again. 3-4 stars.Staggering Fall*** - Paired with a tripper this SoL is nasty. Without a tripper the rating drops to organge due to being circumstantial. Note the enemy gets a save every round.
Status** - A decent wand or scroll to have in order to monitor the rouge or ranger as they scout ahead. If it allowed communication this would be a lot better.
Steal Voice* - If this is your thing stick with forced quiet.
it's a permanent 20% spell failure affliction that eats their swift action on any round they want to cast. 3 starsSummon Monster II ** - See Summon monster I
Summon Swarm*- Inferrior to vomit swarm in every way. Skip this.
Symbol of Mirroring* - I hate symbol spells. Long casting times and usually costly material components. Works like mirror image, but it can help enemies as well.
Touch of Idiocy** - If only this spell wasn't touch. That being said it reduces all 3 mental abilities with no save.
Unnatural Lust* - A really bad 1 round SoL. If 1 round SoLs sound appealing then scroll up to command.
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Unshakable Chill* - I'm not sure if this is worse than frostbite or not, either way this sucks.Web**** - The witch's spell list is lacking battlefield control and this is a great battlefield control spell.
Web Shelter** - Almost a combat spell, but the webs low hp and casting time kill its potential as one.
Zone of Truth** - An ok SoL. Problem is you can't tell which creatures are affected and which aren't which means you are inclined to believe anything said in the spells range. This means creatures who save and identify the spell can intentionally mislead you. Only the witch's hexes save this from being red.
As always feedback is welcome and appreciaed.
Also, I thought I heard that helpless targets autofail will saves?
Is that incorrect? If not, that would mean Death Knell only actually allows a save if the target is at negative HP and concious.
Death Knell* - A really unimpressive self buff. With hexes you can basically make this autosucceed, but why?
up to 50% in bonus hit points an increase in caster level (which boosts all your hexes/spells DC) and a stat bump is minor to you? 3 stars
Hex DC is based on the Witchs (class) level, not her caster level. And spells never improve their DC when your caster level increases. You only get a slighly longer duration or an additional damage die or something like that.
The temporaty HP are very minor (just cast false life instead) and the strength bonus won't do your witch any good. And to get all this, you must waste a standard action to kill an opponent who will most likely be unable to do anything anyway. Oh, AND your target gets a save (can't find anything saying a helpless target doesn't get one). AND the range is touch, which most likely means you have to spend your move action to use the spell.
Personally, I'd rather cackle and cast a spell or use a hex. One star is absolutely correct. 2 stars at best. 3 would be way too much.
But I do think Glitterdust should get 4 stars. Even if the targets get a save every round, blinding at least a few enemies for a couple of rounds is an amazing advantage in any combat. The versatility against invisible foes is just the icing on the cake.
Also, I thought I heard that helpless targets autofail will saves?
Is that incorrect? If not, that would mean Death Knell only actually allows a save if the target is at negative HP and concious.
I think you are thinking of this rule:
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
However, it only applies to spells that require a willing target so you can teleport your unconscious friend to safety without him making a saving throw.
Death Knell doesn't require a willing target, so the rules doesn't apply here.|
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Hex DC is based on the Witchs (class) level, not her caster level. And spells never improve their DC when your caster level increases. You only get a slighly longer duration or an additional damage die or something like that.
Death Knell* - A really unimpressive self buff. With hexes you can basically make this autosucceed, but why?
up to 50% in bonus hit points an increase in caster level (which boosts all your hexes/spells DC) and a stat bump is minor to you? 3 stars
You are correct for the DC's meant to reference spell effects/durations/bonuses not DC's. And at 10/mins per level (half hour minimum) it can be a noticeale increase in power.
The temporaty HP are very minor (just cast false life instead) and the strength bonus won't do your witch any good. And to get all this, you must waste a standard action to kill an opponent who will most likely be unable to do anything anyway. Oh, AND your target gets a save (can't find anything saying a helpless target doesn't get one). AND the range is touch, which most likely means you have to spend your move action to use the spell.
1D8 HP's could easily increase a 3rd level witch's HP's by nearly 50% and it stacks with the other sources of temporary hit points so why not use both? As for the range that's what familiars are for, cast the spell and make it go do the touch for you while you move and do something else. Since the spell only works on targets at -1 or less HP's it's no risk.
This is really an after kill cleanup spell to make the next fight that much easier.
Personally, I'd rather cackle and cast a spell or use a hex. One star is absolutely correct. 2 stars at best. 3 would be way too much.But I do think Glitterdust should get 4 stars. Even if the targets get a save every round, blinding at least a few enemies for a couple of rounds is an amazing advantage in any combat. The versatility against invisible foes is just the icing on the cake.
That is entirely your choice but we aren't debating what's a better action merely the value of an individual spell or spell combo.
@c873788 I'd personally avoid a tactics section, would lead to a lot of bloat and rules interpretations issues. Maybe just like the guide standards we create 2-3 builds that show off the standard possibilities the class excels at (De-Buffer, SoD specialist and Heal-bot) to explain how the class works.
I'm inclined to agree with you. The guide is already a lengthy read.
Thanks for the opinion Mathwei, but allow me to rebuttal and justify some of my ratings.
Alter Self - Definitely has some use in the field of espionage its not very useful unless the witch has the skills to back it up (although charm person/charm hex could help). Lengthy conversations will also test the spells duration. I retain my opinion of the 2 stars though you and the OP are welcome to disagree.
Augury - Seeing as the spell cannot mislead you and if you are cautious with your assumptions I can agree to bump up the star rating by one.
Blindness/Deafness - After reviewing the penalties for blindness I can agree to a 3 star rating.
Blood Transcription - I will add that to my rating. Thank you.
Death Knell - The benefits are too minor for me to give this a better rating even if the save is auto fail. I also dislike sending my familiar to deliver touch spells even if the target is unconscious.
Disfiguring Touch - Creativity is a major factor in pathfinder and upon some of the possible options you have mentioned I can agree to give this spell a 2 star rating.
Enthrall - I really do not want to budge on this one, but the total number of affected is a factor I neglected so I can give it 2 stars.
False Life - Forgot out the rules for Temp Hp thanks for pointing this out. Bumped up to 3 stars
Fog Cloud - 2 stars is enough for this. Haunting mists is a better alternative and stinking cloud is one spell level away. Otherwise, this would be 3 stars.
Masterwork Transformation - I can agree to bump this up one based solely on the duration.
Miserable Pity - I did read it wrong you are correct. I can give it two stars because it makes being within 30 feat to use hexes safer.
Protective Penumbra - Its circumstantial, but still useful in a given situation 2 stars it is.
Scare - I can give this a 2 star rating. Even though it affects more than one creature the HD limit gets to me.
Share Memory - I think I am getting thrown off by the word or. It makes me think that only one of those three options can be taken. Its circumstantial and I still feel that charming is a better option, but against non-humanoids its useful and seeing is believing. 2 stars.
Spectral Hand - The standard action casting time ruins this for me and I really do not like spells that require a to-hit to work anyway. 2 is really the best I can give this spell.
Steal Voice - It does eat up the swift action and it targets fort which is a nice change of pace for a SoL. 3 stars I can agree with.
I hope that this is an adequate defense or change for my ratings. I can't edit my above post so c873788 if you would like I can re-post it or you can make appropriate changes.
You are using it wrong - it's insanely powerful. Inscribe one inside a book (if you can afford it, make it permanent). Get your party together, open the book to trigger it, then close the book and carry it with you. You and your party are subject to the mirroring effect, being within 60 ft of the symbol (note, there is no mention of needing line of effect). As you have closed the book, no one else can re-trigger the symbol until they take the book away from you and open it. You and your party have individual re-occuring mirror images for the duration (10 minutes per level!). And if you have made it permanent (for only 5000 gold!) you can just keep doing it!Symbol of Mirroring* - I hate symbol spells. Long casting times and usually costly material components. Works like mirror image, but it can help enemies as well.
That is nothing short of genius great excellent strategy. You managed to make a symbol spell good I am thoroughly impressed.
Question Related to Symbols: Can the ones without a listed permanency cost be made permanent as per a symbol of death? It seems like they should be able to be...
If so, a deck full of permanent symbols might be in my witches dreams...
Fog Cloud - 2 stars is enough for this. Haunting mists is a better alternative and stinking cloud is one spell level away. Otherwise, this would be 3 stars.
I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Mathwei on this. Fog Cloud is definitely 3 stars in my mind. Remember that even though stinking cloud is only one spell level higher, you might not want to give up a slot for it as there may be better 3rd level spell options. An excellent crowd control spell for only a 2nd level spell.
I did not know about Haunting Mists. That's definitely a 4 star rating that I now plan to use.
I have no arguments about any of your other ratings. Could you please repost the adjusted list and thanks again for your contribution.
Actually, I would give Haunting Mists 1 star. A) it has no range - "An illusion of misty vapor inhabited by shadowy shapes arises around you. It is stationary. ", so you can't place for best effect B) there is no line saying that you (not to mention your allies) are immune to taking the 1d2 Wisdom damage and shaken effect... Yes, you are targeting your self with a a debuff effect.
Hmm... That makes a huge difference then. I'm not sure under what circumstances you would use this spell.
Actually, I would give Haunting Mists 1 star. A) it has no range - "An illusion of misty vapor inhabited by shadowy shapes arises around you. It is stationary. ", so you can't place for best effect B) there is no line saying that you (not to mention your allies) are immune to taking the 1d2 Wisdom damage and shaken effect... Yes, you are targeting your self with a a debuff effect.Hmm... That makes a huge difference then. I'm not sure under what circumstances you would use this spell.
Oh hello there mr. low wisdom barbarian. Don't mind me us Lich witches just have really bad nightmarish gas!
Alter Self**- A spell that grants you either a minor str or dex bonus and a potential disguise. Real selling feature is that you get abilities like darkvision, swim or scent for 1min/level.
Augury** - Ask the DM what is on the other side of the door spell, it can't mislead you, but it isn't 100% so the answer is more of a guidance than an absolute.
Blindness/Deafness*** - Permanent SoL and you pick one or the other upon casting. Permanent blindness is a combat winner (make sure the target doesn't have an ability like tremorsense or blindsight first.
Blood Transcription** - A pretty creative way to add more spells to your familiar. It doesn't rely on saves so this is a spell I carry one or two scrolls of before going into a dungeon. Note that it does not require the target to be humanoid, but it does have the evil descriptor so cast sparingly. Without the scribe scroll feat this is pointless.
Boiling Blood* - Either do one point of fire damage per round or give an orc the most minor buff for its level I can think of.
Daze Monster*** - Pretty good for the first few levels, but you know what im gonna say about HD limit right?
Death Knell* - A really unimpressive self buff. With hexes you can basically make this autosucceed, but why?
Delay Pain** - The ability damage/drain it ignores has to be from a pain effect so this makes this super circumstantial, but in that scenario it has a long duration. If you don't have a cleric or druid this is more benficial to have at hand.
Delay Poison** - Circumstantial? Long duration and before you have the capability of neutralizing poison this is a good spell to have a scroll of.
Detect Thoughts** - Only detects surface thoughs and requires concentration for a few rounds, but it can also detect where people/monsters are by detecting their thoughts.
Disfiguring Touch** - Pretty long duration and your choice of a variety of penalties which are pretty minor. Innovation on landing the touch attack is a key here (spectral hand, prehensile hair, familiar)
Enthrall** - Low HD limit, bonus on saves to unfriendly creatures, any hostile action ends spell and if they fail their save they can try to heckle you to end the effect. Though the number of creatures affected is unlimited so you could in theory enthrall an entire city.
False Life*** - Cast this at the beginning of the day extra HP is always welcome.
Fog Cloud*** - A good duration and range semi-redundant with some of the other cloud spells so make your own choice.
Gentle Repose** - A pretty circumstantial spell, but a money saver if the fighter dies in the dungeon and you need to get back to town in order to raise him.
Ghostly Disguise* - No good use jumps out at me and if you need a disguise just stick with alter self, at least with it you can get darkvision or scent.
Glitterdust*** - AoE blindness spell and outlines invisible creatures. Make sure you allies know what you are doing before you cast.
Haunting Mists* - I love spells with partial, but this has no range and its unclear whether or not you are immune to the wis damage/shaken effect. Hurts allies too.
Mad Hallucination*** - A decent SoL that works best on enemy casters (especially clerics and druids).
Masterwork Transformation** - The permanent duration really what makes this orange. Note that you still have to pay the associated costs.
Miserable Pity*** - Stops enemies from attacking you and the only way to end this affect (duration aside) is to attack. Hexes, battlefield control, debuffing, buffing, and summoning can all still be cast.
Pernicious Poison*** - No save and this stacks with evil eye a quick vomit swarm on the enemy or an alchemist with swift poisoning and the enemy will be taking a lot of ability damage. Nice duration and attempts to cure poison get a -4 as well.
Protective Penumbra** - Circumstantial, but the bonus stacks with almost anything and when the fighter and you are stranded in the desert and he is wearing full plate he will thank you for having this.
Scare** - Only affects one HD more than cause fear, but affects a number of creatures.
See Invisibility** - Personally I'd stick with glitterdust so your allies can see as well, but this spell isn't bad.
Severed Fate* - Enemies usually don't have hero points in campaigns I play in, but if they are supposed to let me know.
Share Memory* - If the target has some useful information just charm or torture them.
Silk to Steel** - An ok way to get a small shield bonus, but short duration means its an in combat spell. +2 isn't all that impressive either.
Skinsend* - A cool spell, but the risks associated with detaching your skin just aren't worth it in my book.
Soothing Word** - If you have a paladin his Lay on Hands out classes this in every way. My main problem is it doesn't get rid of conditions or remove lesser versions.
Spectral Hand** - If you can get this as a prep before combat it makes a lot of touch attacks viable. Otherwise, the standard action time kills the rating.
Staggering Fall*** - Paired with a tripper this SoL is nasty. Without a tripper the rating drops to orange due to being circumstantial. Note the enemy gets a save every round.
Status** - A decent wand or scroll to have in order to monitor the rouge or ranger as they scout ahead. If it allowed communication this would be a lot better.
Steal Voice*** - Eat up the enemy caster's swift action and targets fort which is a nice change of pace. Decent SoL.
Summon Monster II ** - See Summon monster I
Summon Swarm*- Inferior to vomit swarm in every way. Skip this.
Symbol of Mirroring*** - The key with symbol spells is innovation. A cast before you enter the room kind of spell. It works for your allies so its like having mirror image on the entire party. Cast and keep ready for when you need it, then just keep the enemy from seeing it.
Touch of Idiocy** - If only this spell wasn't touch. That being said it reduces all 3 mental abilities with no save.
Unnatural Lust* - A really bad 1 round SoL. If 1 round SoLs sound appealing then scroll up to command.
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Unshakable Chill* - I'm not sure if this is worse than frostbite or not, either way this sucks.
Web**** - The witch's spell list is lacking battlefield control and this is a great battlefield control spell.
Web Shelter** - Almost a combat spell, but the webs low hp and casting time kill its potential as one.
Zone of Truth** - An ok SoL. Problem is you can't tell which creatures are affected and which aren't which means you are inclined to believe anything said in the spells range. This means creatures who save and identify the spell can intentionally mislead you. Only the witch's hexes save this from being red.
Got the 3rd level spells
3rd-Level Witch Spells
Anthropomorphic Animal* - I do not see anything particularly useful seems like more of a downgrade to me.
Arcane Sight* - A really buffed up cantrip (dispel magic). Doesn't require concentration and has a much longer range, but nothing that makes it worth a 3rd level spell slot.
Ash Storm** - Blocks vision and causes the area within to become difficult terrain. Huge range and decent area. A lot like the spell sleet storm both do similar things, but sleet storm is slightly superior.
Cackling Skull** - 2 stars solely because the innovative will undoubtedly find some genius use for this, but I just don't see it.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance** - A decent know whats on the other side of the door spell.
Countless eyes** - Decent buff that prevents flanking with a long duration, not sure if its worth a 3rd level slot though.
Deep slumber* - I hate HD limits and its redundant with your slumber hex.
Dispel magic** - Its pretty mediocre at all levels, though thats not to say its not useful at times.
Eldritch Fever*** - Make a caster have to work for every spell they cast. The concentration check is no laughing matter (unless its not on you in which case cackle away).
Eruptive Postules** - A defensive buff that will make the enemy hitting you slightly injured and possibly sickened. I prefer to avoid the situation in which this is needed.
Excruciating Deformation** - Touch attack that with a failed save does minor ability damage, 2d6 nonlethal damage, and hampers movement. Note that the enemy can suffer the penalty multiple times making this stack nicely.
Fly*** - Redundant with your hex, but works on your allies always useful.
Glyph of Warding** - Decent way to defend something important or pull a nice ambush/trap . Either choose a blast effect or a spell of 3rd level or lower to be stored.
Harrowing* - A gamble and the penalties will outweigh the benefits.
Heroism** - Stacks with most bonuses and a decent duration. Pretty minor benefits though.
Howling Agony*** - Nice debuff which gives a variety of -2s and affects a number of creatures. The enemy can use a move action to remove the penalties, but this prevents full attacks.
Ki Leech* - A self only spell that does absolutely nothing without a ki pool. Also in order for it to take affect you have to reduce the creature (which has to have a ki pool) to 0 hp or crit hit. Sound useful?
Lighting bolt**- Standard blast. Too bad its area of effect is a really long line and not a radius, but its your best 3rd level blast.
Loathsome Veil** - Another HD limit spell fantastic. Its ok when you pick it up, just gets worse with levels.
Locate Object* - Late entry for you and its bad even as a level 2 spell. I MIGHT teach it to my familiar if i found it.
Malediction* - Another spell that deals with hero points. Typically enemies don't have hero points at my table (most games not even PC's) . Really small amount temp hp too.
Marionette Possession* - Magic jar is an awesome spell, but this requires a willing target effectively killing its usefulness.
Rage* - Subject gains rage as a barbarian (minus fatigue). Basically a double edged sword that requires concentration.
Rain of Frogs* - Stick with vomit swarm the swarm this summons is hardly better and at higher levels vomit swarm is better.
Ray of Exhaustion**** - I love partial affects and with a couple of debuff hexes the target is lucky to get off with the partial affect. Soften up one big enemy.
Reckless Infatuation* - Anything you are trying to do with this can be more easily done with a lower level spell.
Sands of Time* - Really ineffective touch spell that is going to carry some minor penalties.
Sepia Snake Sigil* - Glyph of warding is a cheaper, more versatile and likely more effective way to do what this spell tries to.
Sleet Storm**** - Awesome battlefield control that has the potential to knock enemies prone. Slightly better than ash storm with the same range duration and area of effect.
Speak With Dead* - Ask a newly made (or preserved) corpse a few questions. It gets a save to resist and I am not sure if you can cast debuffs or use debuffing hexes on a corpse before you cast the spell.
Spit Venom*** - Blind a target for a round with a successful ranged touch attack (no save) and poison him using your spells DC as the poison's DC (pernicious Poison anyone?).
Stinking Cloud**** - Fog cloud with a nauseating affect that persists for a few rounds even after the target leaves. Note an unofficial FAQ states this as a poison effect.
Strangling Hair** - Single Target (tough you can switch) battlefield control.Uses your level as BAB and INT mod which is good. Concentration in order to maintain the spell though which hurts the rating.
Suggestion** - The will heavy witch spell list and spells that have similar effects make this unimpressive. Note it works on non humanoids though only a single target. Innovation makes this better.
Summon Monster III**** - Awesome summon spell with a huge variety of options. Very versatile spell.
Tongues** - A good scroll and you know what I am going to say about redundancy right? (literally the same name)
Unadulterated Loathing*** - The opposite of reckless infatuation, but this works quite nicely as a combat spell.
Unravel Destiny* - Another Hero point spell woo. If hero points are a big deal in your campaign then this is ok.
Vampiric Touch*** - Creativity with touch attacks makes this spell good. Not a lot of damage, but its negative energy type so immunities are less of a problem. No save either.
Vermin Shape I*** - Self buff that gives Nat armor (stacks with mage armor), ability score bonus and a bonus on saves vs mind affecting abilities. Not a huge duration, but with some planning can be a before combat buff. Very nice utility abilities as well.
Vision of Hell** - An ok spell best used on groups of enemies. Affects your allies which keeps it from being green.
Water Walk** - Personally I'd stick with fly, but this has some nice utility.
Witness* - Share senses with another target. Share memory is a better option than this.
It is going to take me a little longer than usual to make corrections and as always feedback is welcomed and appreciated.
I think Glitterdust should get 4 stars. You said yourself that blindness is a huge debuff - and one that very few things are immune to. Blinding multiple enemies with one spell can seriously hurt their combat performance.
Even if the targets get a save every round, blinding at least a few enemies for a couple of rounds is an amazing advantage in any combat. The versatility against invisible foes is just the icing on the cake.
And Stinking Cloud is a poison effect officially now. Ultimate Magic lists it under the spells that gain the new poison descriptor.
I think Glitterdust should get 4 stars. You said yourself that blindness is a huge debuff - and one that very few things are immune to. Blinding multiple enemies with one spell can seriously hurt their combat performance.
Even if the targets get a save every round, blinding at least a few enemies for a couple of rounds is an amazing advantage in any combat. The versatility against invisible foes is just the icing on the cake.And Stinking Cloud is a poison effect officially now. Ultimate Magic lists it under the spells that gain the new poison descriptor.
Glitterdust got nerfed to where they get a save every round denying it that hallowed 4 star rating. Otherwise, I would have given it 4 stars.
As far as stinking cloud goes thanks for clearing that up.
Is Reckless Infatuation really that bad? Will Save or be staggered for days per level, as well as forcing them to a specific course of action.
Just pick an individual you're certain the target knows of, but can't get to. "Your mother", or its favored deity should work well right?
Alternatively, I had thought of combining it with a Silent Image (possibly cast by my familiar via wand or SLA), and designating the image at the target; then you have the image walk around a corner and vanish.
Bam. Crazy obsessed target who literally cannot find the object of his infatuation.
Glitterdust got nerfed from being an absolutely broken spell down to being one of the best spells in the game for its level. Its still a 4 star spell.
I agree. Even if they make their save on the second round, they are still blinded for one round. One round in which they
- can't make AoOs
- can't move at full speed without making an acrobatics check and risk falling prone (that DC 10 can be VERY hard for foes in armor)
- can't use targeted spells (which goes for offensive spells like Magic Missile as well as many buff spells like Haste)
- Loose their dex bonus and are prone to sneak attack
- take a -2 AC penalty on top of losing their Dex bous
- treat all targets as if they had displacement (a 3rd level spell, btw)
Blindness is among the best debuffs in the game. Hitting multiple enemies will devestate them, even if it should last only one round. But Witches are pretty good at making targets fail their saves so chances are, at least a few enemies will be affected for more than one round.
I'd also say a reasonable number of witches will have SF (Conjuration) for Augment Summoning anyway.
If I'd ever take Highten Spell just to increase the DC of a spell, it would be for Glitterdust.
Great guide!
One thing I noticed, you don't mention the Dreamspeaker elven racial alternative trait from the APG.
Dreamspeaker: A few elves have the ability to tap into the power of sleep, dreams, and prescient reverie. Elves with this racial trait add +1 to saving throw DCs for spells of the divination school and sleep effects they cast. In addition, elves with a Charisma of 15 or higher may use dream once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level is equal to the elf’s character level). This racial trait replaces the elven immunities racial trait.
Great guide!
One thing I noticed, you don't mention the Dreamspeaker elven racial alternative trait from the APG.
Indeed, this makes taking an Elf a bit more attractive.
[QUOTE=] discussion on improved familiar
my witch is nearly 7th. used herolab to add ooze mephit, but his UMD was pretty low
should it be:
+7 for my ranks of 7
+3 for it being class skill?
+2 his 14 CHA?
from various bits n bob bonuses my witch has +15
Glasya is very much looking forward to use threefold aspect-crone, and seeing if phantasmal killer finally becomes worthwile...obviously after an evil eye is used. I guess with evil / misfortune it will be something like
save DC 21. Roll twice , take worse, at -4 (when im 8th)
Havent used screech yet, which doesnt appear on the lists above (i dont think)
they do seem very dominating witches
I suppose I can agree to increasing glitterdust's rating to 4 stars seeing as I kind of have an unfair bias (Currently playing with a DM who is elemental and construct happy due to the crazy number of immunities).
Also, I reread Reckless Infatuation. The main problem I have with it is that the target must have knowledge of a specific individual and the interpretations on that can widely vary. Based on what a specific DM says the rating could rise, but I want to keep the rating as is.
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[QUOTE=] discussion on improved familiar
my witch is nearly 7th. used herolab to add ooze mephit, but his UMD was pretty low
should it be:
+7 for my ranks of 7
+3 for it being class skill?
+2 his 14 CHA?
from various bits n bob bonuses my witch has +15
Glasya is very much looking forward to use threefold aspect-crone, and seeing if phantasmal killer finally becomes worthwile...obviously after an evil eye is used. I guess with evil / misfortune it will be something like
save DC 21. Roll twice , take worse, at -4 (when im 8th)
Havent used screech yet, which doesnt appear on the lists above (i dont think)
they do seem very dominating witches
The mephit uses your ranks but his own stat modifier and since it's not a class skill for him he doesn't get the +3. He should be sitting at a +9 due to what you have listed. Buy him some gear to boost the skill rating and go from there.
[QUOTE=] discussion on improved familiar
The mephit uses your ranks but his own stat modifier and since it's not a class skill for him he doesn't get the +3. He should be sitting at a +9 due to what you have listed. Buy him some gear to boost the skill rating and go from there.
Hmm, not that exciting then. guess if he has a non vital wand he can be useful assuming he fails half the time
If no one else has any vastly different opinions than me on the 3rd level spell ratings then I will go ahead and start rating the 4th level spells.
Hmm, not that exciting then. guess if he has a non vital wand he can be useful assuming he fails half the time[QUOTE=] discussion on improved familiar
The mephit uses your ranks but his own stat modifier and since it's not a class skill for him he doesn't get the +3. He should be sitting at a +9 due to what you have listed. Buy him some gear to boost the skill rating and go from there.
Azata, Lyrakien....looks like a jolly pick for a CG witch