Discordant Voice and Inspire Courage is way over-powered


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I run a game with 6-7 players. Most of those players do some form of physical attack with a wix of some spells. There is only one mage/sorcerer. The bard in the group uses discordant voice along with Inspire Courage now every combat. Those two are causing the game to start to become very lop-sided in favor of the PCs.

So first Inspire Courage is added +3 to every attack to hit and adding +3 to every damage roll for ALL players within 30 feet. +3 adds about 10% chance for every attack to hit. That alone is pretty pwerful. BUT< it also adds +3 damage to every hit (unnamed type that can't be countered). Taking my one character that gets 7 attacks a round with two weapons, and hi hits 6 out of 7 times (thanks to +3 to hit, he has a +18 I think to hit with all his feats, a +2 two-handed sword, etc.). So for one full-atack round he gets an additional 18 dmg on average just tacked on. Consider that his weapons are already +1d6 fire for his weapon and that adds up fast.

NOW, add discordant voice. This grants ALL PCs within 30 feet +1d6 sonic damage to every hit. For this one fighter alone, this will add between +6 and +36 damage each round! If you look at the average, it should hover around +21. So that's +18 for the inspire courage and +21 for discordant voice, for a total average damage of around +39 damage each round in addition to the bard having his own ability to do whatever they want during the round.

Now multiply that times 5 characters (giving them half the bonus because they are not fighters). For those other players, a melee round adds about +18 damage EACH. So, for the fighter and 5 other characters, that one feat will (on average), add +129 damage per round. At its MAXIMUM, it will add +220 damage EACH ROUND. On average, the one fighter alone does around 180 - 220 damage each round right now. Almost no 13th level monster can stand again him for one round with a AC under 35.

The ONLY wany I can stop this is to constantly control PCs using whatever crowd control I can have.

I thought of actually putting up a mirror party against the PCs (same basic powers), but it would just come down to two fighters and everyone else would be dead. Because if the fighter is next to you when the bard is singing and the round begins your character is gone.

I'm a bit perplexed on how to handle this without just escalating the baddies to all have inspire courage and discordant voice for every combat. This is feeling very much like the old haste, where is you didn't use it you basically get destroyed.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Silence.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Okay, one word pithy response that solves the whole issue aside, inspire courage, yes, it's amazing. And Discordant Voice is likewise amazing. And together they're fantastic. But that's kind of the point.

Now, enemy tactics play into this, too. Firstly, make sure you're not allowing the 15 minute adventuring day any more than you can help. Then target the bard with any and all opponents of Intelligence 3 or higher, because they will know what a bard can do.

Scarab Sages

Silence.. while not specifically stated that it uses audible components the pre-req of Discordant voice does say you need oratory or sing which can be cause to disallow the feat from working in the area of the Silence spell..

Warning that this will be likely a house rule that may very well upset the players but dropping it once or twice to break up the rut might be helpful..


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Bards are awesome force multipliers. This is nothing. Wait until the bard can start given people new saves, bonuses, or the arcane caster a second turn in the round.

Bards are awesome in large parties. You just kind of have to deal with it. The best way to do so is up the action economy on the other side and give the party a ton of enemies to deal with.

A party of 6-7 players is nearly unmanageable. In order to have a good, interesting combat with that kind of party, the encounter will either be super deadly or filled with so many combatants that every combat will take a super long time to resolve.

There's no great solution to this, but I rarely recommend running a game with more than 4-5 PCs.


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The game is generally designed with four PCs or so in mind. Bumping that to seven doubles the number of allies the Bard has to buff.

That said, fight fire with fire. Kobold Skald(s) with a bunch of lower-level kobold mooks and a lots of linnorm death curse rage powers.

Liberty's Edge

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Create Mr. Pitt wrote:

Bards are awesome force multipliers. This is nothing. Wait until the bard can start given people new saves, bonuses, or the arcane caster a second turn in the round.

Bards are awesome in large parties. You just kind of have to deal with it. The best way to do so is up the action economy on the other side and give the party a ton of enemies to deal with.

A party of 6-7 players is nearly unmanageable. In order to have a good, interesting combat with that kind of party, the encounter will either be super deadly or filled with so many combatants that every combat will take a super long time to resolve.

There's no great solution to this, but I rarely recommend running a game with more than 4-5 PCs.

Agreed and seconded on all of the above

To the Op no it's not imo. Wait until the full casters if you have any in your party starting casting higher level spell. That can be broken imo.

If the Bard really wants to liven the mood at higher levels he can use this http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/heroic-finale or and this http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/good-hope/ while then casting this http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/moment-of-greatness/

Did I mention that Bards and only Bards can cast this http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/arcane-concordance/ as well as this http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shadowbard/ and this http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/virtuoso-performance/.

So again it's not broken imo.


The Bard is within 30 feet of the enemy for Discordant Voice to work (there's no range given on inspire courage as long as their allies can see/hear them depending on the performance type), which is a slightly dangerous place to be standing.

This is at least a level 11 bard, so they should be doing really cool stuff with their abilities, and the bad guys should be able to dish out a good chunk of damage or conditions on somebody that close.


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Given that, is it too much to say that an intelligent group of enemies would group up to take out the bard almost all the time over a fighter or wizard? I don't want to be the anti-party DM who is just trying to be a jerk, but if the bard adds that much damage, it would be reasonable to assume that other baddies know this and other baddies will take every effort to kill the bard, then the cleric then the wizard, in that order. Is that reasonable to assume?

Liberty's Edge

Well they would have to do some kind of research first at least. Not automatically know that a Bard is buffing his allies at least at first. Usually unless I'm playing a combat based Bard I stay behind the primary melee characters in a group. Which should make it hard for a enemy to figure out who is buffing the party. Mirror Image can help with this.


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Discordant Voice is limited by range. Have some ranged battles, or try to somehow separate the group so not everyone will profit from the Voice. Lategame, Pathfinder becomes what's known as "rocket tag," where PCs and enemies are simply powerhouses that wipe the floor with each other. And yeah, he deals a "passive" 200 damage every round, but that's probably spread across multiple opponents. A single enemy of your CR probably can't survive a round of that amount of damage, but 1 vs 6-7 is doomed to fail anyway. Most good fights are against multiple enemies, and at that level, if you spread out that 200 damage evenly, everyone's still standing. Or say the group focuses fire and downs one enemy. That's still the rest of the group unharmed that can retaliate.

Also, it's a feat with a hefty requirement. By that level, feats are allowed to do silly things. Similarly, a Fighter can at level 12 take Greater Weapon Specialization. That does 2 extra damage per hit (in addition to the +2 from Weapon Specialisation). He gets a passive +4 to every hit from those feats. Similarly, a Ranger of the same level has access to Instant Enemy, a spell that tremendously boosts his damage output. Things just get silly around level 10+.

Also noteworthy: the Bard is, as someone already said, a "force multiplier." But the tradeoff is that most Bards don't deal any damage in combat themselves. Most Bards are backrow supporters. If you take that Bard and replace him with a full-BAB character he'll probably do about the same amount of damage. You're also assuming every single attack will hit, while unless you roll really well, most iteratives will miss. And finally, that party is way too big. Most adventures are planned for 4-5 characters. Adding two more just skews the balance in the party's favour, especially when you have a team buffer on hand. If you dial back the number of players and account for possible misses, that 220 damage will drop significantly.

But yeah, Discordant Voice is pretty powerful. In and of itself it's just 3.5 damage, but if you factor in the Bard bonus, that's 6 damage per hit, and that adds up.


Let me ask this then, if you as a player walked in on a group of orcs that attacked you and the one orc in the back was singing, waht would you have your party do? Attack the orc fighters in front of the singing orc in the back?

Liberty's Edge

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For all we know it could just be a war chant that most orcs do. As a player one can't assume that the singing orc is a Bard. That's metagaming imo. I'm not sure which knowledge roll is used to figure it out. That's like saying every person wearing a robe and no armor might be a mage. It could very well be a Monk or Rogue. I see your point. Yet unless one fights Orcs on a regular basis. A one time encounter is not going to be enough for the group to point and say "that's a bard". A smart Dm could have all the regular orcs singing a different song. While the Orc Bard sings the one that Inspires Courage to hide himself.

Silver Crusade

How does your two-handed weapon using fighter get 7 attacks per round? BAB grants at most 4 and haste would grant another, but none of the other effects that add an additional attack stack with haste, that I can think of.

Liberty's Edge

Bard are the class that imo overcomes the weakness of some if not most members of a party. They can buff the ability of the group to hit and do damage. They can make sure party members usually succeed at skill checks with Inspire Competence. Even remove certain weakness of a class. If the Dm keeps targeting a Fighters with spells that require Will saves the Saving Finale spell is your friend. If one wanted both to be able to do Combat and still retain the best of the Bardic abilites. The Arcane Duelist archetype is the way to go.


Bardic Performance is a Supernatural ability. I'm not sure 100%, but I think those can be identified by Knowledge checks. It's maybe a bit metagamey, but pretty much every in-game effect can be traced back to a monster ability, class, spell, or spell-like ability. Even if the direct action isn't immediately understandable, its effects are. Yes, it might be a typical war chant, but the Bard leads them, or such. Similarly, someone holding something in the air and everyone takes damage can be traced back to a Channel Energy. A person setting up a flank doesn't magically hit harder, he specifically aims for the kidneys. That's a Sneak Attack. A Dretch waving its hands in the air is probably trying to summon a second Dretch.

It's up to the GM how to handle it, but players need to understand what's going on in order to counter it. Say for example in the Rogue's case, they didn't know it was a Rogue and it simply hits for a lot of damage. You don't have to spell out to them, "this is a fifth-level Rogue," but you do have to say it specifically hits certain parts of the body for maximum damage to indicate there's something special going on. If not, they'll assume it's just something the monster can do and do nothing to counter it.

I am not entirely sure how much the people on Golarion know about PC powers, but things like Paladins, Clerics, and Wizards are easily known. Not all Rogues openly advertise themselves as such, but if you see a person being shifty, you can assume he's some kind of sneak attacking kinda guy.


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Not sure how the math is in your game, but that two weapon fighter that has +18s buffed...he has that for 2-3 attacks (if hasted), then +13s for two and then +8s for two...Has to be lvl 11+ too have that many attacks and at that level the +8s probably don't hit. Even the +13s aren't great. 11bab+2weapon+3buff-2duel wield, he only has +4 from str+any other buffs...not that massive a build even.

Also all other characters have at least 3 attacks per round? You have to be feeling the pain of an all melee group, NO one missing with second and third attacks doesn't make any sense.

Now if they are all 12-13th lvl, you really don't understand the damage a dialed l2 Wizard can do per round or you wouldn't have an issues. Massive AEs, Save or Die, oh and at range. You have a sorc and he should be out damaging everyone.

Target the bard, he has too be close to be adding the sneak dice. He can't be too hard to hit, crappy armor/crappy HP/crappy bab so not a lot of attacks from him. A bard make a party of 4 better, it makes a party of 7 much better...that's just how it is going to be for you.


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Maybe another perspective helps in this case. I will use your own match in the following example to keep stuff simple.

Imagine there was no bard. Without the performances the fighters average damage would drop by 39 (to 161 on average) because he loses the damage bonus and by another 10% because he loses the attack bonus. He ends up dealing around 145 damage each round.

But here is the catch: the bards player is still around. Lets say he also rolled a fighter instead of a bard. Now he is adding 145 damage each round as well. This is pretty close to the total amount of damage lost due to the missing performance (129 + reduced attack bonus of 4 more guys), so lets just assume those changes cancel each other out.

The net damage difference between bringing a bard and bringing a fighter is basically the melee damage the bard was doing. And we are talking about the best party a bard could ever ask for (twice the amount of people to benefit from the performance and a fighter designed to make as many attacks as possible).

Of course this doesn't give the whole picture (especially as the bard would be way better of casting support spells like haste at that level), but if a guy doing 200 damage on average causes you trouble, then two guys doing 145 each will be just as bad.
The problem is not the bard, the problem is high level pathfinder becoming rocket tag by default. This is why every character guide out there tells you to get improved initiative. When a single full-attack kills an opponent then going first is the difference between potentially dying and leaving the fight unharmed.


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I mean, it's cool but it's only an extra 3.5 points of damage within 30ft of you.

It's good, but not particularly amazing. Inspire courage is what's really good, getting a little extra damage bonus is nice.


Java Joe wrote:

I run a game with 6-7 players. Most of those players do some form of physical attack with a wix of some spells. There is only one mage/sorcerer. The bard in the group uses discordant voice along with Inspire Courage now every combat. Those two are causing the game to start to become very lop-sided in favor of the PCs.

So first Inspire Courage is added +3 to every attack to hit and adding +3 to every damage roll for ALL players within 30 feet. +3 adds about 15% chance for every attack to hit. That alone is pretty powerful.

FTFY

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BUT< it also adds +3 damage to every hit (unnamed type that can't be countered).

It is increasing the damage of the weapon used, not adding untyped damage.

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Taking my one character that gets 7 attacks a round with two weapons, and hi hits 6 out of 7 times (thanks to +3 to hit, he has a +18 I think to hit with all his feats, a +2 two-handed sword, etc.). So for one full-atack round he gets an additional 18 dmg on average just tacked on. Consider that his weapons are already +1d6 fire for his weapon and that adds up fast.

1. How are you TWFing with a two handed sword?

2. Assuming +18 is a valid number, the to-hit for your attacks should be +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3, or +18/+18/+8/+13/+13/+8/+8 if the 7th attack was from Haste, which the bard should be casting nearly every fight.


Imagine the problem the OP would have with Verbose Performer and its pre-reqs! Verbose Performer doubles the range of all Bardic Performance to 60'. Master Performer (a pre-req for VP) adds +1 to your Inspire Courage!
Love that feat chain on a Sound Striker Bard!


If you have fighters making 7 attacks a round, you're at 11th level or higher. The game sort of expects a genre shift at that point -- from something like LotR to something a lot closer to the Avengers -- even if the AP writers don't always realize it. Dealing a zillion points of damage a round is sort of part and parcel of that.

That means that "kill it in melee" becomes pretty binary -- either you're fighting mooks and slaughtering them without any real hope of their survival, or you're fighting something like the Tarrasque, which should be sort of a unique event -- and then you need that kind of massive damage to take it down.

At higher levels, logically, most combats should increasingly end up being with powerful outsiders who greater teleport at will away from melee attackers and then destroy everyone with spell-like abilities. Trying to continue a hack-and-slash game at upper levels really doesn't work well with PF, which is why I often start a new campaign before things get too crazy.

Liberty's Edge

I'm not disagreeing with you Quentin. Just that it should take more battles or a very high Knowledge skill roll. One can't assume that the shifty person trying to be unnoticed is a Rogue. Chances are very good that it is. It could also be some average person given money by a npc to spy on the party. Now if the group send a Rogue to scout and sees a Orc and the other five orcs getting pumped up while the Orcish Bard is singing. Then the rogue can go back and tell the others. A high level Arcane duelist can easily be confused with a Fighter as they can wear medium than heavy armor.

With a Bard it's more his spells and less his inspire Courage which may cause problems imo. Wait until the Bard starts casting Communal Phantom Steed. Or Secure Shelter. Bards Escape is a Dimension Door for the entire group. Full Casters if the Op has any in his party will be doing so much more at high levels.


memorax wrote:
One can't assume that the shifty person trying to be unnoticed is a Rogue.

Actually, one can. That's basically what the word "assume" means, isn't it?

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Chances are very good that it is.

And by your own acknowledgement, it's a reasonable assumption. What it's not is a guarantee, but that's where the in-game Knowledge skills come in.

Liberty's Edge

Actually one can't thats like saying every person wearing a robe is Wizard. If the DM allows a player to metagame and assume every Rogue is simply going to act like a stereotypical Rogue. Then every shifty eyed noc is a Rogue. Usually as player its never that obvious. Not withour decent skill rolls. Or a healthy dose of metagaming. With the DM trying to disguise a Rogue being a Rogue imo.


memorax wrote:
Actually one can't thats like saying every person wearing a robe is Wizard. If the DM allows a player to metagame and assume every Rogue is simply going to act like a stereotypical Rogue. Then every shifty eyed noc is a Rogue. Usually both as a DM and a player its never that obvious. Not withour decent skill rolls. Or a healthy dose of metagaming.

I love assumptions like these.

My main character looks and acts like a shifty wizard. (i.e. silken armor, tends to stick to the shadows, carries a sword, always paranoid.

In truth he is neither a wizard nor a rogue, but fills both party roles.

Being a paranoid backstabbing bastard is just me roleplaying that character.

Liberty's Edge

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memorax wrote:
For all we know it could just be a war chant that most orcs do. As a player one can't assume that the singing orc is a Bard. That's metagaming imo.

If characters know that they live in a world in which Bards exist, then for my money reacting opponents who stand behind an enemy line performing in some way as if they are Bards is not metagaming.

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I'm not sure which knowledge roll is used to figure it out.

Since the vast majority of creatures who have class levels are humanoid in type, I'd probably go with Knowledge (Local) for the most part, but if I even made a player roll to identify the a likely class based on observation of a character (as opposed to identifying a class feature in use), I'd say that the core classes would be DC 10 at the absolute worst.

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A smart Dm could have all the regular orcs singing a different song.

This would strike me as a bit on the metagame side. First, because the fact that the GM is smart doesn't mean that the Orcs are. Second, because Bards singing to buff their allies models real life musicians whose music was used to improve armies' combat ability by communicating. If every soldier in one of those armies different song would probably cancel out the benefit the musician created. Now, in PF that wouldn't happen because the Bard's song is magical, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

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While the Orc Bard sings the one that Inspires Courage to hide himself.

If the Orc Bard is smart, I might buy that he would teach his fellows to all join in the same song so that he can more easily blend into the group.

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One can't assume that the shifty person trying to be unnoticed is a Rogue.

One can assume that. What one can't do is know that.

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It could also be some average person given money by a npc to spy on the party.

Absolutely. But that doesn't mean the party can't react to the Commoner spy as they would a Rogue.

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A high level Arcane duelist can easily be confused with a Fighter as they can wear medium than heavy armor.

Yes, and that's an advantage that the Arcane Duelist has over more stereotypical looking spell casters.

It's completely reasonable for PCs to choose how to react to NPCs based on the NPCs' actions and appearance. And the same in reverse. That's a big part of why the Disguise skill exists.


memorax wrote:
Actually one can't thats like saying every person wearing a robe is Wizard. If the DM allows a player to metagame and assume every Rogue is simply going to act like a stereotypical Rogue. Then every shifty eyed noc is a Rogue. Usually as player its never that obvious. Not withour decent skill rolls. Or a healthy dose of metagaming. With the DM trying to disguise a Rogue being a Rogue imo.

If it's a reasonable assumption, then it's not metagaming to assume.

The way to throw that off is to have a guy wearing a robe... happen to be wearing fairly heavy armor under that robe... and the staff he was holding is actually an enchanted quarterstaff, and he's quite good at using it in melee.

Now, the characters have reason to maybe not assume they know what's gone in the future. Even if that one guy was the only Fighter dressed like a Wizard in the entire world, every Wizard they encounter will carry a doubt "is this guy really a wizard?", because that's how paranoia works : )


memorax wrote:
Actually one can't

Actually, one can. As i wrote earlier, that's what the word "assume" means.

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thats like saying every person wearing a robe is Wizard

And that's true often enough to make it a useful assumption.


solution have your own bard and have a party of zen archer monks see how the melee based party reacts to about 36 buffed up ranged attacks each round starting at about a distance of 300 feet or more


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't see how it's metagaming to make reasonable working assumptions about an opponent, unless and until it's proven wrong. Why would you not assume that the guy in robes in the back is a wizard. Pincushion him and ask questions later. If he wasn't a wizardly threat well it's one less enemy to worry about and he/she was in the back for a reason.

My personal favorite vs bards is as has been mentioned silence. Put silence on a arrow/stone and shoot/sling/toss it in the area of the bard. Or cast it on the front rank martial types shield so it mobile.

Liberty's Edge

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All good counterpoints. My take is that one should still make a Knowledge roll. Especially at low levels. Or after a few encounters with the same opponent. I would give a bonus to a Rogue trying to identify another being shifty. Not "its a Wizard because it wears a robe" not a first level imo. Knowing everything about a enemy ruins game immersion at least to my players and myself.


There is a fine line between metagaming and competence. They may not be the brightest enemies out there, but at certain point enemies are not longer a bunch of airheads and become seasoned veterans. In a world where Dragons exist, blood and fire make "people" to adapt quickly.


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memorax wrote:
All good counterpoints. My take is that one should still make a Knowledge roll. Especially at low levels.

All right, what knowledge DC would you set for knowing that wizards wear robes?

Liberty's Edge

It all depends on the situation at tbe time. Is the caster out in the open? Or hidden. Using a spell to remain hidden. What kind of conditions in the area such as fog or mist etc at the time. Are the casters robes plain or embroidered.


memorax wrote:

I'm not disagreeing with you Quentin. Just that it should take more battles or a very high Knowledge skill roll. One can't assume that the shifty person trying to be unnoticed is a Rogue. Chances are very good that it is. It could also be some average person given money by a npc to spy on the party. Now if the group send a Rogue to scout and sees a Orc and the other five orcs getting pumped up while the Orcish Bard is singing. Then the rogue can go back and tell the others. A high level Arcane duelist can easily be confused with a Fighter as they can wear medium than heavy armor.

With a Bard it's more his spells and less his inspire Courage which may cause problems imo. Wait until the Bard starts casting Communal Phantom Steed. Or Secure Shelter. Bards Escape is a Dimension Door for the entire group. Full Casters if the Op has any in his party will be doing so much more at high levels.

Whether or not you can identify a class depends no how many people have PC classes in your game world. In D&D and PF novels knowing they exist is common, so if someone is in the back singing its not hard to figure out what they are doing. If people can go their entire lives and never hear about a bard or any other class then I would agree it is metagaming.

The combo you mentioned is not OP. What is OP is subjective by table. The bard is a force multiplier as mentioned. He could switch to a full caster, and make things worse by summoning things, and cutting the bad guys party in half. The list goes on. High level play can be a scary thing if you are not used to it.


As for picking out a "wizard" he could be an arcanist or even a witch, but really it doesn't matter. You know he is the magic guy who is causing problems so he needs to die. The point is that certain people do certain things, and it is not difficult to make an educated guess as to what they do if PC classes are around enough for people to know about them, and since there are spellcasting services and "fighter kits" it makes sense that people have some idea that people are trained to have certain skill sets.

Liberty's Edge

I never felt the combo I mentioned was overpowered. It just that if the Op thinks Inspire Courage and Discondant voice is overpowered. He or she may have a hard time running the game at later levels. Magic is powerful in Pathfinder imo. Many spells can end encounters. I like playing Bards and run them to the best of my ability. Same thing when i play casters of all kinds.


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wraithstrike wrote:
As for picking out a "wizard" he could be an arcanist or even a witch, but really it doesn't matter. You know he is the magic guy who is causing problems so he needs to die. The point is that certain people do certain things, and it is not difficult to make an educated guess as to what they do if PC classes are around enough for people to know about them, and since there are spellcasting services and "fighter kits" it makes sense that people have some idea that people are trained to have certain skill sets.

If it's a common enough tactic to target NPC dressed and/or acting a certain way, then surely enemies would exploit this to distract and draw attention by using decoys, no?

Silver Crusade

Spymaster's handbook added options to the knowledge skills for being able to discern observable feats and other abilities.

So if a Wizard casts a spell you would use Spellcraft to identify the spell, but Knowledge (Arcana) to determine that it is a Wizard.


Java Joe wrote:
+3 adds about 10% chance for every attack to hit.

It adds +15% chance to hit. If your chance to hit before was 15%, your chance to hit with the extra +3 is 30%. (Which would increase DPR by 100%!)

Liberty's Edge

Good to know about the Spymasters handbook. I dont have the book. Though something like that should have been in Ultimate Intrigue imo.


Agodeshalf wrote:

I don't see how it's metagaming to make reasonable working assumptions about an opponent, unless and until it's proven wrong. Why would you not assume that the guy in robes in the back is a wizard. Pincushion him and ask questions later. If he wasn't a wizardly threat well it's one less enemy to worry about and he/she was in the back for a reason.

My personal favorite vs bards is as has been mentioned silence. Put silence on a arrow/stone and shoot/sling/toss it in the area of the bard. Or cast it on the front rank martial types shield so it mobile.

You are making the assumption the bard is not a mime.

Silver Crusade

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Yeah, I would have preferred rules like that in a core book too, they're really useful.

Silver Crusade

Java Joe wrote:

So first Inspire Courage is added +3 to every attack to hit and adding +3 to every damage roll for ALL players within 30 feet. +3 adds about 10% chance for every attack to hit. That alone is pretty pwerful. BUT< it also adds +3 damage to every hit (unnamed type that can't be countered). Taking my one character that gets 7 attacks a round with two weapons, and hi hits 6 out of 7 times (thanks to +3 to hit, he has a +18 I think to hit with all his feats, a +2 two-handed sword, etc.). So for one full-atack round he gets an additional 18 dmg on average just tacked on. Consider that his weapons are already +1d6 fire for his weapon and that adds up fast.

NOW, add discordant voice. This grants ALL PCs within 30 feet +1d6 sonic damage to every hit.

First inspire courage is a competence bonus to hit, and damage, moral bonus to save vs. fear.

Second silence dose not work as long as they can see the bard. Inspire courage has a verbal or visual component to it. The bard can use one or both at any time.

Third discordant voice modify inspire courage. As long as they can get inspire courage discordant voice works. You could rule other wise it's your game. As written silence dose not stop it.

Problems
1: You have a large party. Unless your running a adventure that is known for being hard. You party size is going to kill most of the encounters with no problem because the size alone brakes the CR system. You need to increase the number of bad guys by 25%, increase the CR of a solo bad buy by 2. To challenge a party of this size.
2: Bard is such a force multiplier. I recommend you do the change for the large party before bumping the CR past where they are now. However if they are still destroying every thing bump all the CR by 1. You are now getting towards the edge of TPK. Due to none physical combat ability's however.

Note your bard is not playing to their full effectiveness. If they are only giving inspire courage. If you bard starts learning new tricks with their spell list. The +1 CR might not be enough. You might end up needing to bump the CR, and number of monsters. So high that you would think the CR system is broken because their defeating monsters far above the CR they should.

My high level bard every combat.
Round 1: Good Hope(Moral), Inspire Courage(competence): +5 To hit, damage(+1D6 sonic) +2 to all saves, skill, and ability checks.
Round 2: I'll use haste if I needed. However I normal join combat by then.


Silence will negate Discordant Voice simply because it makes you immune to sonic based effects. Inspire courage can be either verbal or visual, but the bard needs to pick one and most bards chose verbal by default (so his allies can run around corners without losing the bonus) and he would need to restart it as a visual performance in an area of silence.

At the same time I don't think silence is the answer to your problem. It can be nice to make a particular fight tougher, but it would get old pretty fast.


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memorax wrote:
It all depends on the situation at tbe time. Is the caster out in the open? Or hidden. Using a spell to remain hidden. What kind of conditions in the area such as fog or mist etc at the time. Are the casters robes plain or embroidered.

I didn't realize there was a wrong answer to the question "what knowledge DC would you set for knowing that wizards wear robes?" but you found one.

"Wizards wear robes" is a declarative mostly-true statement, like "birds fly," or "mammals bear live young," or "cows say 'moo'." Yes, penguins exist, and so there are isolated exceptions, but the simple statement that "birds fly" is known to every four year old, even when there are no birds in sight.

And knowing this particular fact does not depend in any way on the situation at the time, or even the presence of a wizard.


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_Ozy_ wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
As for picking out a "wizard" he could be an arcanist or even a witch, but really it doesn't matter. You know he is the magic guy who is causing problems so he needs to die. The point is that certain people do certain things, and it is not difficult to make an educated guess as to what they do if PC classes are around enough for people to know about them, and since there are spellcasting services and "fighter kits" it makes sense that people have some idea that people are trained to have certain skill sets.
If it's a common enough tactic to target NPC dressed and/or acting a certain way, then surely enemies would exploit this to distract and draw attention by using decoys, no?

Not necessarily. Who are you going to get to be the decoy? You will lose more in tactical positioning and in survivability by stripping the front-line paladin down to his scanties and putting him twenty feet back than you will gain from the attacks he will draw.

Are you familiar with (American, gridiron) football? There's a concept in that game of a "trick play" or a "gadget play," where you do something unusual precisely to get your opponent, for example, to focus on the wrong person. These plays can be very effective from time-to-time. They can also backfire horribly, because the structure and rules of the game, as well as the laws of physics, strongly suggest playing in a conventional manner. That's why "trick plays" are typically used sparingly, and only by the team that is trailing at any given time.

You also need to be careful about what kind of "trick" you pull. While it might distract the opposing football team to have the quarterback play offensive tackle and an offensive tackle play quarterback,.... well, the quarterback isn't strong enough and doesn't have the skills to play in the line, and the tackle can't run or throw worth toffee. I don't see how the distraction will turn into an actual advantage, like, points on the board, when the OT fumbles the snap or throws a wobbly pass that can be easily intercepted by anyone, including the weight coach.

Dressing your paladin up like a wizard is like that,... a trick play. It might work, it might not, but it keeps the paladin from playing the role he does best, which is not a good long-term strategy. Similarly, dressing the wizard up like the paladin might work, and might not, but it also keeps the wizard from doing what he does best, which is casting spells (that 50% arcane failure chance is a heavy burden).


Bards are powerful, and they are more powerful the more people they are buffing. With half a dozen other melee types in the party -- yeah, they're amazing. This is normal for high-level play. And 6-7 players are FAR more powerful than 4 players (the usual standard for encounter design). Enemies should have plenty of mooks, more hit points, and there own buffers, if you want them to be any kind of obstacle. Also they should be seeking terrain advantages from your party -- cover, flying, be on the other side of a wall with arrow slits.

As to countering the bard specifically:

Enemies can certainly target the bard. I'd expect them to.

Enemies can have bards of their own. Everyone gets buffed!

Silence will shut down bards that use audible performances, which is most of them, at least within the radius of the spell. Someone could cast it on an ally/minion, who then charges/Acrobatics and grapples the bard. Visual performances can be nerfed by vision-blocking spells, of which there are a great many.

Bards have poor Fort saves. At this level, enemies should have a spellcaster or too -- just turn the bard into a fluffy bunny rabbit, or into stone, or fill the air around him with a [i]cloudkill[l/i] or something like that.

Have some enemies use song-based attacks (really powerful harpies or sirens?) -- the bard will have to chooose between buffing his friends, and using countersong to stop the enemy (which will make him feel nice as that ability is rarely used.)

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