Encountering swarms is a little tricky. If a swarm has invulnerability to weapons, how are PCs supposed to defeat them?
My first thoughts are throwing oil and catching it on fire, as well as magic with some kind of area effect. I've also seen mention of PCs throwing big heavy objects onto swarms, but that's just using improvised weapons and so really shouldn't work, right?
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Encountering swarms is a little tricky. If a swarm has invulnerability to weapons, how are PCs supposed to defeat them?
My first thoughts are throwing oil and catching it on fire, as well as magic with some kind of area effect. I've also seen mention of PCs throwing big heavy objects onto swarms, but that's just using improvised weapons and so really shouldn't work, right?
Torches deal a d3 fire
Splash damage from alchemists fire and acid. Remember to double the splash damage since it has an AoE
Spells. Burning hands/fireball.
Torches are the go to item for swarms at low levels. It even fits as a valid tactic many players should think of trying as you see this tactic in movies as well. (Think The Mummy or Indiana Jones.)
Even if they do not have any actual torches on their person the can tear off bits of cloth and wrap it around a sword or whatever to help fight swarms.
If they have access to other splash weapons or spells then even better.
Torches deal a d3 fire.
If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.
It deals 1d3 bludgeoning +1 fire, but it is still a weapon as defined by the core rulebook and swarms are therefore immune to it.
As far as I can tell, splash weapons are the most effective tool at lower levels. As they become available (and more plentiful), I think spells are an easier fix.
EDIT: Also, splash weapons only deal half again as much damage, not double. So, four fire/acid damage would be six instead.
Re-EDIT:
Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds, such as those created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.
Emphasis mine.
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Ants, scorpions and other crawlers usually won't cross water, and their speed is usually not so crash hot. So running away to the nearest water source is always an option.
1) Ready an action to shoot a flaming arrow.
2) Throw a water skin of oil.
3) Boom!
Burning Hands is an early entry spell that deals with swarms quite well, especially if it's used as a readied action along with a couple of skins of oil.
Swarms of Snakes can be treated as a group of animals and thus your Druid or Ranger can make a Handle Animal check to keep them calm (albeit at a penalty).
Get creative!
Torches deal a d3 fire.If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.It deals 1d3 bludgeoning +1 fire, but it is still a weapon as defined by the core rulebook and swarms are therefore immune to it.
As far as I can tell, splash weapons are the most effective tool at lower levels. As they become available (and more plentiful), I think spells are an easier fix.
EDIT: Also, splash weapons only deal half again as much damage, not double. So, four fire/acid damage would be six instead.
Re-EDIT:
...Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds, such as those created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A
Some clarifications:
1. Fire damage is not weapon damage, despite having come from a weapon. Therefore if you hit a swarm with a torch they will take 1 point of damage.
2. The object that deals 1d3 fire damage is a flask of oil when poured out and lit on fire. Flasks of oil can also be used as 50% chance of success alchemist's fire. Very useful info for the penny pinching adventurer.
3. Ground swarms generally have a speed of 20 feet. This means you can outrun them rather easily if you have a move speed of 30.
4. Swarms can't open doors and have no special ability to hurt objects. If all else fails, climb in a chest or box and wait for them to lose interest (unless it's a swarm of termites of course...).
5. Smashing a swarm with a large object should not be considered weapon damage since falling objects do not follow the weapon rules. Dropped objects could indeed be considered weapons, but since they do not have a damage type treating them as weapons could create some problems.
PRD wrote:
Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds, such as those created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A
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Some clarifications:
1. Fire damage is not weapon damage, despite having come from a weapon. Therefore if you hit a swarm with a torch they will take 1 point of damage.[...]
If I have a +1 flaming longsword it means that I can attack swarms and while not dealing weapon damage (1d8), I can still burn them down for 1d6 fire energy damage of my weapon's enhancement?
That would be The Solution for almost any melee character and still a viable choice for every other player.
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I do not like swarms
I do not like them around my face
I do not like them threatening my space
I do not like them on the ground
I do not like them they make me frown
I do not like them Sam I amNow that that is out, I have seen spells such as sleep and color spray used to take out swarms. Even seen a well placed grease spell, lit on fire soon after do the job. Burning hands has been, hands down the way to go when dealing with that type of menace in my group.
Excellent poem.
But the grease spell is not flammable. If it were the spell description would mention it like the web spell does.
--Vrock you like a hurricane
They are either a real challenge at low level ...or just easy peasy xp if you have the right tool
just as group of skellies are xp generators for clerics, so swarms are for sorcerors with burning hands
fog cloud will work well if you can add a damage type to it with a feat.
P.S. where dose it say that the grease spell is nonflamable? I just read the spell's description and it's not mentioned.
fog cloud will work well if you can add a damage type to it with a feat.
P.S. where dose it say that the grease spell is nonflamable? I just read the spell's description and it's not mentioned.
Because there is specifically a 2nd level spell that mimics grease, but is flammable, meaning the 1st level one is not flammable.
Check out in COMPLETE MAGE the spell called Incendiary Slime. Might be in SPELL COMPENDIUM also, not sure.
fog cloud will work well if you can add a damage type to it with a feat.
P.S. where dose it say that the grease spell is nonflamable? I just read the spell's description and it's not mentioned.
Exactly, it's not mentioned. So there's no reason to assume it's flammable anymore than any other spell effect is. I assume it can burn (or melt? cook?) but no more than a lantern archon or a summoned instrument can.
arent those bouth 3.5 sources?
I am not intamateing that the grease is explosive just flamable like a tourch just covering a larger area.
Note that the material component of grease is butter. Butter grease isn't flammable, it's not an oil slick or whatnot. Food for thought.
Food for thought.
I see what you did there . . . ;)
butter is verry flamable.
it just has to get hot enough.
heat points for fats include "flash" and "fire" points at 600 and 700 degrees, respectively.
I wonder why no one has thought to wright a spell to simulate boiling or flameing oil?
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butter is verry flamable.
it just has to get hot enough.heat points for fats include "flash" and "fire" points at 600 and 700 degrees, respectively.
I wonder why no one has thought to wright a spell to simulate boiling or flameing oil?
Hells EVERYTHING is flammable if it gets hot enough! But the grease spell is no more flammable than a glitterdust spell.
--Vrock Pot
LOL... yes everything is flamable
--Vrock Pot
I see what you did there . . . ;)
To the OP: probably you're asking how PCs can handle a swarm if they have not access to area spells or the 'throwing oil and burn them down' trick is not enough for higher level encounters (hellwasp swarm for example, CR 8, 88hp)...
If so, according to this post, weapons enchanted with energy damage are the solution. You can strike easy (the above hellwasp swarm for example has AC 20 for CR 8) and have not to worry about consumables or creative solutions. If you're allowed 3.5 material then Dungeonscape book has a weapon enhancement that allows you to strike and damage normally swarm-type creatures...
Last swarm we encountered I simply washed away with my never ending decanter of water.
Generally, I would use burning hands to try and kill them or create pit to trap them while the party runs.
Nicely done. About the encounter and this excellent bit of thread necromancy.
Was there ever an official ruling about what can damage a swarm of diminutives? The 1d6 damage from alchemist fire, a weapon with energy damage - are those weapon damage? Are they effects that target a specific number of creatures?
They are not weapon damage and are effects that target a specific number of creatures (though splash weapons have a specific exception that allows you to use them on swarms just fine). There has, sadly, been no ruling, so questions like yours and needless arguments like those we've seen will likely continue for some time.
Great! I love needless arguments.
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Freddy the Fighter: Crap. Four swarms incoming. Erik didn't prep anything for fighting swarms, and Ed's out of spells.
Rita the Rogue: And neither of us can actually hurt them with weapons. We're screwed!
Barto the Bard: Fear not! Leave everything to (sound of a bard getting hardcore mangled by four swarms of bullet ants)
Amy the Alchemist: Swarms? (gulps a Haste infusion, then starts pulling alchemist bombs out of her duster's pockets, out of her turban, out of her pants pockets... even one out of her boot) >=D
[Cue Motorhead's "Ace of Spades" here as the alchemist proceeds to WRECK the swarms.]
splash weapons have a specific exception that allows you to use them on swarms just fine
Do you mean this?
"A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells."That clearly applies only to the splash damage from the alchemist fire, and not the 1d6 direct-hit damage. I will defend this annoying and pedantic idea to the death!
Encountering swarms is a little tricky. If a swarm has invulnerability to weapons, how are PCs supposed to defeat them?
My first thoughts are throwing oil and catching it on fire, as well as magic with some kind of area effect. I've also seen mention of PCs throwing big heavy objects onto swarms, but that's just using improvised weapons and so really shouldn't work, right?
Depends on the swarm, but typically you're best off having casters in your party, ones with blasty spells prepared. In some cases the swarms are just aggravating, though, and you can whittle down their numbers with alchemists fire, torches, etc. Sometimes, though, you happen upon nightmares and need the evoker to save the day.
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splash weapons have a specific exception that allows you to use them on swarms just fineDo you mean this?
"A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells."
That clearly applies only to the splash damage from the alchemist fire, and not the 1d6 direct-hit damage. I will defend this annoying and pedantic idea to the death!
That's still too good. I demand that splash weapons be converted to normal attacks instead of targeting Touch AC! I'm tired of the fighter showing my wizard up with these things!
That clearly applies only to the splash damage from the alchemist fire, and not the 1d6 direct-hit damage. I will defend this annoying and pedantic idea to the death!
Only one creature is subject to the direct hit, that would be what? One ant out of that carpet of 10,000? Splash damage all around for everyone else in the area.
At first level my party ran into a swarm of Chew Spiders. The fight took place in a thorny thicket that inflicted 1 point of piercing damage per round to anyone moving around in it (the spider swarm being immune). The party did not have Burning Hands (wizard didn't memorize it that day), had no torches, no oil or other splash weapons, and no other source of energy damage. They realized the lesson was: Sometimes you run away and come back better prepared. When they returned with some oil flasks and two Burning Hands spells it was fight over in two rounds without taking a single point of damage. All they needed to worry about was luring the swarm out of the thicket (because they didn't want to incinerate the berries that were a quest objective).
Which is why I really hate These Guys :(
We came across these in Tsojcanth conversion, and we had to block them in and run away as we weren't the best optimized group...
what about displacement, do swarms still have to roll miss chance?
Hey Bullion902. This thread has been inactive for about 6 years, so they're unlikely to respond.
The answer to your question is: "No, Swarms don't roll an attack so there's no miss chance."
Swarm Attack: Creatures with the swarm subtype don’t make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover. A swarm’s statistics block has “swarm” in the Melee entries, with no attack bonus given. The amount of damage a swarm deals is based on its Hit Dice, as shown below.
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The swarmbane clasp is great magic item.
Kineticist's kinetic blast do full damage to swarms.
Looks at the date of the posts...never mind.
Encountering swarms is a little tricky. If a swarm has invulnerability to weapons, how are PCs supposed to defeat them?
My first thoughts are throwing oil and catching it on fire, as well as magic with some kind of area effect. I've also seen mention of PCs throwing big heavy objects onto swarms, but that's just using improvised weapons and so really shouldn't work, right?
Torches deal a d3 fire
Splash damage from alchemists fire and acid. Remember to double the splash damage since it has an AoE
Spells. Burning hands/fireball.
I thought torches did 1 point of damage, not 1d3
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"Did someone say 'swarm' in a necro'd thread?"
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I thought torches did 1 point of damage, not 1d3Encountering swarms is a little tricky. If a swarm has invulnerability to weapons, how are PCs supposed to defeat them?
My first thoughts are throwing oil and catching it on fire, as well as magic with some kind of area effect. I've also seen mention of PCs throwing big heavy objects onto swarms, but that's just using improvised weapons and so really shouldn't work, right?
Torches deal a d3 fire
Splash damage from alchemists fire and acid. Remember to double the splash damage since it has an AoE
Spells. Burning hands/fireball.
Idk. I said that 11 years ago. Don't cancel me over a mistake I made online bro.
Lol/sarcasm
I won't cancel you for that, but you'll still be canceled for the Name Violation ;)
I thought torches did 1 point of damage, not 1d3Encountering swarms is a little tricky. If a swarm has invulnerability to weapons, how are PCs supposed to defeat them?
My first thoughts are throwing oil and catching it on fire, as well as magic with some kind of area effect. I've also seen mention of PCs throwing big heavy objects onto swarms, but that's just using improvised weapons and so really shouldn't work, right?
Torches deal a d3 fire
Splash damage from alchemists fire and acid. Remember to double the splash damage since it has an AoE
Spells. Burning hands/fireball.
Idk. I said that 11 years ago. Don't cancel me over a mistake I made online bro.
Lol
/sarcasm
Oppps definitely did not see the date
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Hmm I may need to nab that slime spell.
I am going to start giving enemies at low levels half-charged wands of Incendiary Slime...
For one, using Grease against the party is hilarious. And secondly, these wands would give the party a way to combat swarms... which I have absolutely no problem using.
I like to test the party's mettle with an Aerial Leech Swarm...
Aerial Leech Swarm
CR 5 (w/ template)
XP 1,600 (w/ template)
N Diminutive vermin ( aquatic, swarm, air)
Init +4; Senses blindsight 30 ft.; darkvision 60'
Perception +0
DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 18, flat-footed 14 (+4 Dex, +4 size)
hp 39 (6d8+12)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +2
DR 3/-
Resist electricity 15
Immune mind-affecting effects, swarm traits, weapon damage
Weaknesses susceptible to salt (see giant leech)
OFFENSE
Speed 5 ft., swim 30 ft., fly 30' (perfect)
Melee swarm (2d6 plus poison)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks blood drain, distraction (DC 15)
STATISTICS
Str 1, Dex 18, Con 15, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Atk +4; CMB —; CMD —
Skills Stealth +16 (+24 in swamps), Swim +12; Racial Modifiers +8 Stealth in swamps, uses Dexterity to modify Swim checks
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Blood Drain (Ex)
Any living creature that begins its turn with a leech swarm in its space is drained of its blood and takes 1d3 points of Str and Con damage.
Poison (Ex)
Swarm—injury; save Fort DC 15; frequency 1/round for 2 rounds; effect 1d4 Dexterity drain; cure 1 save.
ECOLOGY
Environment temperate or warm marshes
Organization solitary, pair, or infestation (3–6 swarms)
Treasure none
This horrifying cloud of ravenous, blood-draining parasites eschews the stealth of a lone leech’s methods in favor of swift and merciless feeding.
Aerial Creature
This template can be applied only to a non-outsider with none of the subtypes that follow: air, cold, earth, fire, or water. An aerial creature’s CR increases by 1 only if the base creature has 5 or more HD.
Rebuild Rules
• Type The creature gains the air subtype.
• Senses The creature gains darkvision 60 ft.
• Defensive Abilities The creature gains DR and resistance to electricity as noted on the table below (DR 3/-, electricity resistance 15)
• Speed The creature gains a fly speed equal to its highest speed with perfect maneuverability (maximum fly speed of 10 feet per HD)
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butter is verry flamable.
it just has to get hot enough.heat points for fats include "flash" and "fire" points at 600 and 700 degrees, respectively.
I wonder why no one has thought to wright a spell to simulate boiling or flameing oil?
Hells EVERYTHING is flammable if it gets hot enough! But the grease spell is no more flammable than a glitterdust spell.
--Vrock Pot
@VoodistMonk
Seeing your comment had me search for Incendiary slime in the thread and find this one too.And now I am thinking about Glitterdust and Dust explosions .....