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I think he can be phenomenal front line.
Elven Magus
Str: 7
Int: 18
Wis: 10
Dex: 19
Con: 12
Chr: 7
Feat line:
1st: Weapon focus
3rd: Dervish Dance
5th: Arcane strike
7th: Pirannah Strike
9th: whatever
11th: Improved Critical
Traits: +2 concentration, +2 init
Really comes online at 5th level, with +1 mithril chainshirt, +2 dex item, +1 ring and amulet your AC will be 23, and can quickly be 27 with shield. He'll be +11 to hit for d6 +8 damage, crit 18-20 with a +1 scimitar, and can use his arcana pool and chill touch to do considerably more. Pirannah strike will make that damage bonus +12.
Overall I think there's never been a better character for dervish dance, and channeling everything through dex makes for an awesome build.
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Encumbrance calculates fine... leather + scimitar to mithril chainshirt + scimitar, don't need much else, can get haversack if you want assorted magic. Fighter can carry the assorted stuff.
No -2 to hit / damage... Finesse and Dervish dance substitute (don't stack with) Str for to hit / damage.
You're worse at CMD, but not considerably so, since Dex/Str add there.
It's feat intensive, and at 1 and 2 you are effectively a support caster and crossbow shooter, but he really comes online as the levels progress.
To increase your adventuring day I'd suggest taking wand wielder as early as possible. Spell combat using a wand of shocking grasp rocks (especially if you can find/buy one with a caster level higher than first). Take multiple wands of different spells and you don't have to burn through your limited amount of spells, with the added bonus that wands don't provoke attacks of opportunity.
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To increase your adventuring day I'd suggest taking wand wielder as early as possible. Spell combat using a wand of shocking grasp rocks (especially if you can find/buy one with a caster level higher than first). Take multiple wands of different spells and you don't have to burn through your limited amount of spells, with the added bonus that wands don't provoke attacks of opportunity.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Wand Wielder is a trick.
The Wands are almost always going to do less damage than you would with a spell and if they aren't then you either spent a ton of gold on a limited resource or paid a large opportunity cost when you decided not to sell it.
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Unfortunately, despite having started my campaign a month ago I'm still a level one yearning to get to the cool toys. We're all very busy and our weekly games are short, only 3 hours or so and Serpents Skull starts out kind of slow. I've still never even had a chance to use Spell Combat.
Like many Magi, it's a Dex build. I've no wish to dump str, though. One Ray of Enfeeblement and a Str7 Magus is whimpering on the floor unable to do anything because even his spell components are too heavy to lift.
In theory, I'll be a straight damage dealer. While I'd like to be able to do some controlling, Wall of Fire is as far as I'm willing to go in that regard. Even with 16 Int (my GM like high point buys), my DC's are too low to be reliable. I stick to save free spells as much as possible so a lot of Touch and Ray stuff.
I agree with YuenglingDragon about the wands being a great way to stretch out your usefulness. I personally use Close Range to keep those range touch spells from fizzling on a miss. If I am up close and I miss with my Close Range scorching ray then I have a chance to do it again next round.
My group consists of a Druid with animal companion, TWF fighter/rogue, a converted warmage, a barbarian and myself as a Magus. We just hit level 7 and have been doing alright in terms of combat. I am able to hold my own and while not as damaging as the warmage or the fighter/rogue, I do tend to be the most versatile. Until I pad out my spell book with more spells I have to avoid going all out unless I feel confident that I can survive with the lower level spells and whats left of my arcane pool.
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Encumbrance calculates fine... leather + scimitar to mithril chainshirt + scimitar, don't need much else, can get haversack if you want assorted magic. Fighter can carry the assorted stuff.
Encumbrance does not calculate fine. At least not for adventuring. Your light load tops out at 23 pounds.
A chain shirt is 25. So you can't wear a chain shirt until you get a mithral one. Leather + scimitar is 19, so you won't be able to carry a crossbow and ammunition.
Your backpack is 2 pounds and your clothes are at least another 2. A lightweight lantern with a quart of oil is another 2 pounds. Each day's worth of rations adds a pound. Your spell book and component pouch are 5 pounds together, 50 feet of rope are five more pounds (for the silk rope), and your dagger adds another pound.
That's at least 18 pounds of gear for a fairly standard adventurer. No scrolls. No potions. No bedroll or tent. We'll round it up to an even 20 because not everyone wants to dress like a monk.
If your strength 7 character is not encumbered for overland travel, it's pretty much because your DM doesn't feel like adding up whatever he's carrying. Leather armor + scimitar + spell book + component pouch alone is over your light load limit.
... (thanks arcane pool- this ability does nothing for your to hit at high levels when you get a maxed encanted weapon, except for swapping enchantments)...
The arcane pool specificly states that the enhancement it provides stacks with other enhancement bonuses.
The arcane pool specificly states that the enhancement it provides stacks with other enhancement bonuses.
... (thanks arcane pool- this ability does nothing for your to hit at high levels when you get a maxed encanted weapon, except for swapping enchantments)...
Exactly what I was gonna say. It's AWESOME. And it does not need to SWAP enchantments, it adds.
I think he can be phenomenal front line.
Elven Magus
Str: 7
Int: 18
Wis: 10
Dex: 19
Con: 12
Chr: 7Feat line:
1st: Weapon focus
3rd: Dervish Dance
5th: Arcane strike
7th: Pirannah Strike
9th: whatever
11th: Improved CriticalTraits: +2 concentration, +2 init
Really comes online at 5th level, with +1 mithril chainshirt, +2 dex item, +1 ring and amulet your AC will be 23, and can quickly be 27 with shield. He'll be +11 to hit for d6 +8 damage, crit 18-20 with a +1 scimitar, and can use his arcana pool and chill touch to do considerably more. Pirannah strike will make that damage bonus +12.
Overall I think there's never been a better character for dervish dance, and channeling everything through dex makes for an awesome build.
You can't take weapon focus on the first level.
Arcane Strike, really? Why?Pirannah Strike doesn't work with a Scimitar.
Feat line:
1st: Weapon focus
3rd: Dervish Dance
5th: Arcane strike
7th: Pirannah Strike
9th: whatever
11th: Improved Critical
You can't take weapon focus on the first level.
I think he meant Weapon Finesse. Dervish Dance requires it and he didn't list it anywhere else.
I think he meant Weapon Finesse. Dervish Dance requires it and he didn't list it anywhere else.Feat line:
1st: Weapon focus
3rd: Dervish Dance
5th: Arcane strike
7th: Pirannah Strike
9th: whatever
11th: Improved Critical
You can't take weapon focus on the first level.
I thought so too, but Piranha he can't get anyhow, so, bogus.
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The arcane pool specificly states that the enhancement it provides stacks with other enhancement bonuses.
... (thanks arcane pool- this ability does nothing for your to hit at high levels when you get a maxed encanted weapon, except for swapping enchantments)...
The Enhancement bonus still maxes at +5. You can't go higher than that. You can still add magical properties like keen, speed, and any of the energy types, though, up to an effective +10. The Magus' ability does not bypass the limitations of the game.
YuenglingDragon, it is a trick. It's a very viable, fairly effective trick. It might not allow a Magus to dish it out like the big boys, but it allows him to make good use of his gishness.
The Magus' ability does not bypass the limitations of the game.
I'm not so sure, it's writen diferently than similar abilities like the paladin's one. And besides, it's a crappy rule, not what we are talking about anyway I know. But the way I read it, it does.
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To the OP:
It sounds like you do have trouble with too much nova. Hold back with your spells. Save them for when you and the party are really in trouble. Remember that you are better at the nova thing than pretty much anybody else in the game (except for people with Time Stop).
If you use spells like Chill Touch, you can really get a lot more mileage out of your few spells per day. Chill Touch grants a large number of touch attacks, rather than a single attack that deals lots of damage.
The Magus' ability does not bypass the limitations of the game.I'm not so sure, it's writen diferently than similar abilities like the paladin's one. And besides, it's a crappy rule, not what we are talking about anyway I know. But the way I read it, it does.
I'm wrong about the writen part, it's writen exactly the same. The rest I'm right though. :)
I take issue with having to take Dervish Dance with boatloads of Dex to be viable in the early levels moreso than the 7 strength. Particularly since my current Pathfinder run is in a homebrew viking game. You wouldn't catch a viking prancing around like an honorless pansy waving a little sword around.
I suppose it's easily solved by just investing in more defensive spells plus Extend spell. Daze and Disrupt Undead are decent enough for level 1.
The Enhancement bonus still maxes at +5. You can't go higher than that. You can still add magical properties like keen, speed, and any of the energy types, though, up to an effective +10. The Magus' ability does not bypass the limitations of the game.
True. It is however still a very useful ability, even at high levels. It allows the Magus to save money and/or get increased flexibility, by swaping special abilities or having more weapons to chose from (eg. a dancing weapon + a wielded weapon).
Of course if the intention with this ability was to offset the avg. BAB the +5/+10 cap on this ability should be removed (my recomendation; it ensures the ability scales properly through all levels and simplifies the rules for the ability).
YuenglingDragon, Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 05:18 PM
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Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:
To increase your adventuring day I'd suggest taking wand wielder as early as possible. Spell combat using a wand of shocking grasp rocks (especially if you can find/buy one with a caster level higher than first). Take multiple wands of different spells and you don't have to burn through your limited amount of spells, with the added bonus that wands don't provoke attacks of opportunity.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Wand Wielder is a trick.
The Wands are almost always going to do less damage than you would with a spell and if they aren't then you either spent a ton of gold on a limited resource or paid a large opportunity cost when you decided not to sell it.
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Unfortunately, despite having started my campaign a month ago I'm still a level one yearning to get to the cool toys. We're all very busy and our weekly games are short, only 3 hours or so and Serpents Skull starts out kind of slow. I've still never even had a chance to use Spell Combat.
Like many Magi, it's a Dex build. I've no wish to dump str, though. One Ray of Enfeeblement and a Str7 Magus is whimpering on the floor unable to do anything because even his spell components are too heavy to lift.
In theory, I'll be a straight damage dealer. While I'd like to be able to do some controlling, Wall of Fire is as far as I'm willing to go in that regard. Even with 16 Int (my GM like high point buys), my DC's are too low to be reliable. I stick to save free spells as much as possible so a lot of Touch and Ray stuff.
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I'm not saying it works well with every spell (avoid anything with a DC), but something that does not increase in power by level works quite well. A wand of shield or true strike are good examples of this and they retain their usefullness even at later levels and they free up valuable spell-slots (and after 4th level - spell pool) which for the Magus is quite a limited resource. And also would obviously not really work at all in a low magic or low wealth campaign.
I know that using a damage dealing wand with a caster level lower than yours would deal out less damage than your own spells, but I say again: I merely suggest this as a way to extend "your adventuring day".
I have used this tactic in the Second Darkness adventure path and have encountered great success thus far.
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Even with chill touch etc. I'm finding the damage sucks due to the 1 handed thing.
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It is the second group the Magus Fits in. The magus is supposed to use magic to make himself into a combat guy. Right now he's a sucky combat/blasty guy. Blasting is fun but subpar and he still has to worry about hitting allies.I'm just struggling to make this work on DPR (for single targets- sure he can whittle a whole bunch of guys but when we play it's ALWAYS the Inquis/Bard who can actually drop someone)
Well my last game had an Inquisitor, a Magus, a Wizard, and a Cleric. We only got to level 8, but the Magus was EASILY the heaviest on damage output, when he needed to be. He can put two hands on whatever weapon he wields for damage when not casting, and can cast with the other hand when he needs to. He can do terrific damage with shocking grasp, he can tank with mirror image (best spell in the world for a magus, IMO), and can do both with vampiric touch.
Where he really mops up is critical hits.
Whenever your magus channels a touch spell through a weapon, his critical range changes to match that of the weapon. So a critical hit with the weapon is a critical hit with the spell.
This means your magus can get crits with shocking grasp (10d6 lightning damage, no save? I like it!), vampiric touch (8d6 damage and temporary hit points? Why thank you!), and even scorching ray (though I can't remember whether you need to take an arcana in order to alter rays into touch spells) much more easily than anyone else in the game.
This also means that a magus works best with a weapon that has a 19-20 or 18-20 crit range naturally, especially if it's keen. The piddly 1d6 damage on a scimitar is looking mighty good, especially since a scimitar can be wielded with two hands.
On top of this, you get your normal crit damage as well. So if you're power attacking with two hands on the bastard sword you're wielding, while enlarged and with bull's strength on... well holy cow you just cleaned somebody's clock!
Also note that buffing is a perfectly viable strategy for a magus, unlike with many classes, because you get to attack right after your buff is cast, and during the same turn.
I find that a magus doesn't need to use so much dexterity as it looks like he does. There's a lot of great defensive spells that a magus can use to augment or replace AC (such as shield, mirror image, etc) that can be cast mid-combat if need be.
Where he really mops up is critical hits.
Whenever your magus channels a touch spell through a weapon, his critical range changes to match that of the weapon. So a critical hit with the weapon is a critical hit with the spell.
This means your magus can get crits with shocking grasp (10d6 lightning damage, no save? I like it!), vampiric touch (8d6 damage and temporary hit points? Why thank you!), and even scorching ray (though I can't remember whether you need to take an arcana in order to alter rays into touch spells) much more easily than anyone else in the game.
This also means that a magus works best with a weapon that has a 19-20 or 18-20 crit range naturally, especially if it's keen. The piddly 1d6 damage on a scimitar is looking mighty good, especially since a scimitar can be wielded with two hands.
This is why I LOVE Intensified Spell. 20d6 Shocking Grasp, no save, at level 10 for a 2nd Lv spell slot. Keen your scimitar with a pool point and your critting 30% of the time. And, really, since you only hit on, say, an 8 or better, half your hits are threats. Pick up Crit Focus, or, better yet, Imp. Crit and a wand of Bless Weapon. Never miss a crit on an evil foe! Free Empower with an Arcana, or, better yet, free Quicken and do it again. This is why my DM banned all third party ways to increase your threat range.
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YuenglingDragon, it is a trick. It's a very viable, fairly effective trick. It might not allow a Magus to dish it out like the big boys, but it allows him to make good use of his gishness.
Not by any measure I can determine unless you have unlimited funds at your disposal. A level 1 wand of shocking grasp only adds an average of 175 damage over the course of 50 uses. Using your weapon two handed adds nearly as much and doesn't cost a clipped copper.
I'm not saying it works well with every spell (avoid anything with a DC), but something that does not increase in power by level works quite well. A wand of shield or true strike are good examples of this and they retain their usefullness even at later levels and they retain their usefullness even at later levels and they free up valuable spell-slots (and after 4th level - spell pool) which for the Magus is quite a limited resource. And also would obviously not really work at all in a low magic or low wealth campaign.
You don't need Wand Wielder to use a Wand of Shield before a fight. You don't need a Wand of True Strike because with any decently built PC, your first attack will hit too regularly for the wand to be worth the cost in gold and Arcana investment.
I know that using a damage dealing wand with a caster level lower than yours would deal out less damage than your own spells, but I say again: I merely suggest this as a way to extend "your adventuring day".
I have used this tactic in the Second Darkness adventure path and have encountered great success thus far.
Well, I think that extending your adventuring day is nice. But I also think that there comes a point where you don't need the extension that bad. You'll have plenty of spells by around level 7 or so. But at that same point you only get 2 Arcana. If one of them is Wand Wielder then you missed the chance to get a Familiar and its numerous attendant benefits or the chance to Vanish and other good spells with Spell Blending, or any number of other Arcana which are seemingly much better.
So it seems alot of people are counting on maybe intensified spells (via spell pool or prepping them) to lay a 15d6 on the crappy 1h damage with low level spells that will likely have saves passed?
How many slams/pearls are players counting on?
Or does themagus need to expend all slots on spamming dd spells.
Everyone says fighters suck cause the don't do anything but fight.
If magai are spamming a limited resource just to keep up damage wise they risk not doing much out of combat either.
What are Magus' going to do out of combat? Fireball? Spellstrike? Maybe Arcane Accuracy?
A Magus has very few utility spells, only one utility Arcana (Familiar) and the only non-combat use of his pool is to cast one of the handfull of utility spells in his book.
The only way for a Magus to contribute out of combat is by using his quite respectful amount of skill points (by virtue of being an Int based caster). And those are absolutely free.
So, basically, 5 encounters per day means each encounter should use up 1/5 of his spells and 1/5 of his Arcane Pool. Cause he sure ain't using them for anything else.
Edit: And just to be clear, that's 15d6 of damage on 2h damage (so long as your just using spellstrike, not spell combat) that's at most 10-15 points behind a fighter with no save and +4 to hit enemies in metal armour. And If I really want to nova, it's +5 to hit and empowered.
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Generally I've found it ok to take Lunge ASAP.
Tactic: Run up and smack in rd 1
rd2 5ft step away and spell combat full attack using lunge so you can cast and hit without provoking, might not be legal (unsure) but dm is allowing it.
That trick only works for the fraction of fights which are against enemies without reach who are attacking you from positions favorable to you. If your GM is making fights complex at all, that shouldn't be so many that Lunge is the make or break feat for the Magus.
The Dex based Magus has good AC and, with Combat Casting, a good chance to succeed on all tests to Cast Defensively. I've not seen a real problem with the Magus being in melee in my playtests or other's.
Edit: And just to be clear, that's 15d6 of damage on 2h damage (so long as your just using spellstrike, not spell combat) that's at most 10-15 points behind a fighter with no save and +4 to hit enemies in metal armour. And If I really want to nova, it's +5 to hit and empowered.Never said I had an Issue with Spellstrike. It's awesome.
Check the problem though, you just ran up and smacked a dude for good damage.
Now you gotta full attack him with spell combat. 1h for crappy damage+touch spell and provoking. Your putting yourself in the worst spot for a caster and doing the very thing thats gonna get you an axe to the face.
Generally I've found it ok to take Lunge ASAP.
Tactic: Run up and smack in rd 1
rd2 5ft step away and spell combat full attack using lunge so you can cast and hit without provoking, might not be legal (unsure) but dm is allowing it.
I've found the Magus similar to the Rogue in this respect. Yes, you can hit for hefty damage if you expend the resources, but if you didn't drop him, now you get full-attacked.
The Magus does have a few buffs to help him in melee, but mostly his spells are for doing damage with a small helping of battlefield control. He does get Shield and Mirror Image, as well as Blur and Displacement, all of which help with defense.
I mostly try to use what ranged spells I can while the others soften up the monsters, then run in to finish them off with a low-level spellstrike. I also try to flank, of course, in addition to the bonus the extra targets sometimes help to take a little of the damage off me if I don't drop the baddie.
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Well, at low levels, it doesn't matter if the baddies can full attack the Magus since a full attack is functionally identical to a standard action for many enemies. Even as far as level 6 and 7, the bonus for the second iterative for full BAB opponents is so low that the chances of a well made Magus being hit are low. And at those low levels, the spells a Magus has are often quite enough to drop an opponent. Tonight my level 2 Magus killed two enemies with a Color Spray and another with a Shocking Grasp and sword strike using Spell Combat. Another took sufficient damage from a Spell Striked Chill Touch to be easily mopped up by the Ranger.
In my Level 12 Arena of Doom, the Magus soloed enemies from CRs 9-13, with fairly minimal healing resources between fights. When he was in danger, the spells Steve mentioned above plus Greater Invisibility, were enough to stop a lot of incoming damage.
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I am in a campaign with a 9th-level magus.
He can pour out well over 100 damage on a critical hit.
Our DM's best tactics often involve denying the magus HIS full attack, rather than us getting worried about enemy full attacks because he's just so doggone effective at dealing damage. And when the enemy attacks him, he usually has mirror image and a high AC.
We don't even have a full-on fighter. Just a magus and an inquisitor, and they are quite effective.
The magus can fulfill any combat role he needs to fulfill, although he may need to prepare accordingly.
EDIT: This is the same campaign I referenced above, we started it back up again.
Another thought about the lunge feat: if you have a greater reach then you will most likely get more attacks of opportunity (nice if you have combat reflexes too) similar to the effects of using a whip, without the downside of having to use an otherwise pants weapon.
Another thought about the lunge feat: if you have a greater reach then you will most likely get more attacks of opportunity (nice if you have combat reflexes too) similar to the effects of using a whip, without the downside of having to use an otherwise pants weapon.
I don't think Lunge works on AoOs.
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I don't think Lunge works on AoOs.
Factual.
Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a ?2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.
Only works until the end of your turn. I suppose it would be possible if a bad guy had a readied action that went off after you declared Lunge but that is about as fringe a case can be.
I think he can be phenomenal front line.
Elven Magus
Str: 7
Int: 18
Wis: 10
Dex: 19
Con: 12
Chr: 7Feat line:
1st: Weapon focus
3rd: Dervish Dance
5th: Arcane strike
7th: Pirannah Strike
9th: whatever
11th: Improved CriticalTraits: +2 concentration, +2 init
Really comes online at 5th level, with +1 mithril chainshirt, +2 dex item, +1 ring and amulet your AC will be 23, and can quickly be 27 with shield. He'll be +11 to hit for d6 +8 damage, crit 18-20 with a +1 scimitar, and can use his arcana pool and chill touch to do considerably more. Pirannah strike will make that damage bonus +12.
Overall I think there's never been a better character for dervish dance, and channeling everything through dex makes for an awesome build.
Looks good. If you want pure crack swap out the Weapon Focus and grab Weapon Finesse then go out and pick up an Elven Curved Blade and set it to small....you get a attack and damage bonus for that high dex.
Looks good. If you want pure crack swap out the Weapon Focus and grab Weapon Finesse then go out and pick up an Elven Curved Blade and set it to small....you get a attack and damage bonus for that high dex.I think he can be phenomenal front line.
Elven Magus
Str: 7
Int: 18
Wis: 10
Dex: 19
Con: 12
Chr: 7Feat line:
1st: Weapon focus
3rd: Dervish Dance
5th: Arcane strike
7th: Pirannah Strike
9th: whatever
11th: Improved CriticalTraits: +2 concentration, +2 init
Really comes online at 5th level, with +1 mithril chainshirt, +2 dex item, +1 ring and amulet your AC will be 23, and can quickly be 27 with shield. He'll be +11 to hit for d6 +8 damage, crit 18-20 with a +1 scimitar, and can use his arcana pool and chill touch to do considerably more. Pirannah strike will make that damage bonus +12.
Overall I think there's never been a better character for dervish dance, and channeling everything through dex makes for an awesome build.
Not that good, as Piranha Strike doesn't work with a scimitar, even when you also have Dervish Dance. To add damage, you need to raise Str to 13 and swap Piranha Strike with Power Attack.