Edward Griswold, Jr.'s page

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber. 38 posts (39 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Just realized Owen KC Stephens is doing the Starfinder setting book. Pretty much answers my previous post's questions about when/if this class will be looked at again.


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Are there any plans to Revise this class or offer any future support? I really loved the feats supplement but feel like the class could use a revision and would love more supplementation for rivenspell abilities etc. I really love this class. With a few tweaks to the fluff and mechanics and more versatile options it can fill basically any fighter/mage concept.
TBH I enjoy it more than all of the 3.5 options and official pathfinder options combined.
I know the designer came out with this a long time ago and really wish he would do a revision (like the vanguard, another favorite) now that he’s probably more comfortable with design.

I know I’m super late to the party but after playing 3 campaigns over the last two years, in different groups, with this class I’d like to critique it using my personal experience.
Disclosure: in one campaign the DM allowed me/help me do a revision of the class and allowed me to choose converted Magus Arcana in place of Rivenspells that really improved this class, and was honestly the most fun I had with it over all, without ever feeling like the most powerful player at the table. Which is why I’m here.

TL;DR Conclusion
The class feels like the designer was extremely worried about being overpowered to the point of severely gimping Special Abilities. Keep in mind that the main balance factor is the severely limited number of spells. The class plays like an NPC warrior with the added versatility of 6 levels of spellcasting and some special abilities that ALL tie into his ability to cast spells. Once he casts the small number of spells available he has NO versatility left. NO Special abilities or bonus feats left. No damage or hit accuracy boosts. Zilch, Nada, Nothing. Which is a great balancing factor. Design wise it makes this class work great, without overshadowing anyone. which is why I just don’t see the reason for gimping the spellbook/spell list or main class feature on top of this for balance reasons. Also seeing Arcane Armor Training turned into a main class ability and stretched out to fill so many class special ability slots makes my eye twitch. The mechanics/fluff fit beautifully for the most part once you fix the gimping issues.

First what I like about the class.
Full BAB with 6th level casting at the wizards progression using a spell book. It was great getting spells at the relevant levels, and still qualifying as a decent combatant. While this may sound overpowered on paper, in play you usually either cast or attack and splitting your Abilities between these two actions naturally weakens both. Even in full nova mode it barely kept up combat wise, but it offered an awesome level of versatility to the class once you realize this and change tactics.
Rivenblade’s fluff. Honestly could have named this class after this ability. It’s a really cool explanation for the mechanics that most classes of this style class have. Way cooler that calling it arcane boost etc.

Where I feel it could use work.
First I’d like to make a very important observation that often showed up in play, especially in the early levels. While mixing Full Bab with 6th level casting can seem very powerful, the Archon as a class really only has 1 special ability, beyond Hexblade (but no one really cares about that one). Spells, every ability is either tied into the spell casting, Sacrifices spell casting, improves spell casting, or allows spell casting in special circumstances (in armor swift etc.). So when the Archons, very limited, amount of spells per day is depleted, I’m basically playing a NPC Warrior class. Sometime this can be done after 1 tough fight. While its a major balancer for a class that seems so powerful on paper (though in actual play he mostly feels more versatile than powerful). Its also important to remember that THIS is really the ONLY balancer needed. A bunch of abilities that offer versatility in different situations, but can only be used (as an entire group of all special abilities) are heavily limited by the actual number of spells (Once again a very limited number).

Saves; I feel the Archon deserves a good Fort Save. Considering his focus it fits the Fluff and should fit the mechanics for him to be as physically tough as a warrior on top of mental toughness. Most classes built towards this concept receive a version of the paladin’s grace ability or some form of stalwart. He should at least receive the base save.
Hexblade ability; changes damage type of a weapon for DR/ purposes. While it seems like it could be an interesting ability it is weak, highly circumstantial, received way to late, and has nothing to do with the class it pays homage to. I’d much rather the Hexblades grace/stalwart ability over this. Wouldn’t hurt my feelings to completely cut it from the class.
Spellblade/Desk knight; both of these abilities could be cut with little incident. One is a house rule every combat caster is usually given and the other is a version of Spellstrike. Spellstrikes strongest feature isn’t the hitting through your weapon (actually an inferior option for to hit purposes) or its increased crit range (It does increase damage potential though to offset lost to hit chance), It’s the Free Attack included with the spell. Which is what Desk knight gives you and Spellblade lacks. Combine them into spellstrike at levels where it will shine (5th level at the latest) toss both abilities and call it a day.
Arcane Armor Training; Major class ability. This ability feels like belongs to a multiclass Prestiges class. It also feels like it was stretched out into a major class feature out of sheer designer laziness (no offense) to fill holes in the special abilities. Its mostly pointless considering it only applies to spells from this class. And doesn’t offer any proficiency in the armors it affects. It should take up 2 slots tops (medium/heavy armor) and grant proficiency. Even better, if it’s going to be a major class defensive ability it would be so much cooler if it was like the Abjurant Champion’s Abjurant Armor ability, boosting shield (maybe an archetype with this would be awesome).
Arcane Surge; Works perfect as is and is basically a limited use per day version of the Magus Spell combat ability without hijacking main weapon choices. Major class feature. Maybe add one more use per day at the highest levels.
Favored Spell; I like it. I feel it could replace Arcane armor training as a major class ability progressing like a ranger’s Favored enemy bonus (Capping at +4 per spell of course).
Rivenspell; The Main Class feature. I actually like that it’s tied off Spells as the limiting factor and the way the Mechanics fit the fluff. It’s the one of the only abilities that blends your casting with your fighting prowess. Problem is it’s too weak to the point of useless. It’s the main class feature! and there is little reason to waste the time to choose a new one as you level. Considering how you only gain 1 ability every few levels and its limited by sacrificing your only real class ability, spells, which are already very limited, and not tied of some free pool of Arcane points or free times/day usage, I feel these abilities should AT LEAST equal Magus Arcana if not surpass them in power. And around 8th level should double your benefits per spells level (Superior Rivenspell ability 1st level spell gives a 2nd level spell bonus etc). Requiring a feat (of which this class has no bonuses of) to WEAKLY improve a mostly useless (without a very helpful DM) ability is a ludicrous trap, for something that should be given free in the special abilities. Vigor should be 5 hit points per level. Smite should work more like the Paladin Ability (against just one foe per use 1 to hit 2 to damage per spell level lasting much longer). Also I would like MORE. I’d gladly buy the hell out that supplement. Arcane Accuracy, a familiar maybe a bonus feat option etc.
Finally SPELLS; The (as explained earlier) ONLY real class special ability. Limited for balance? check, 6th level? Awesome. Spellbook/intelligent based? Sweet. Unlimited number of spell book? No?!?!?!?! Limited list? WHYYYYYY? No spell access levels where changed from the wizard list. No spells are from a list outside of the wizards list. The class already gets most of the optimal spells for this style of combat anyway, why limit/build another list? It does very little for balance purposes and only limits class build/character concept ideas for little to no benefit. Seems like a lot of wasted time/effort on the designers part. And the limited know?!?!?!? Complicated, useless balance factor considering the fact that the ONLY BALANCE FACTOR NEEDED, is playing a NPC Warrior class who can cast a very limited number of spells per day.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Using the the Wizard (Scryer) SLA (Not a PFS game) for early entry.
Group consists of Barbarian and Battle Cleric and a Bard running RotRL anniversary edition.

House Rules:
Everyone gets 1 extra feat at 1st level.
DM allowed me to change Arcane Archer Feat Prerequisites to WF (Longbow) + Any Two Archery Feats.

Thinking Elf Fighter 2/Wizard 2/Eldritch Knight 2/Arcane Archer 4/EK X
Wielding a Longbow and Elven Curve Blade

Want to play a Self buffing Ranger like character with a lot of scrolls who can use all the spell books we're supposed to find.

25 point buy.

Str 13
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 16
Wis 14
Cha 10

Perception, Stealth, Survival,

Key feats:
Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Finesse, Improved Critical (Elven Curve Blade), Power Attack.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
Edward Griswold, Jr. wrote:
Curious to know why most of my artwork is missing from the pdf. I notice in all my pathfinder products missing letters in the titles probably as a way to track file sharing i assume but the artwork? really?
I suspect both of the issues you're talking about come from using Preview under OS X 10.6. Try Adobe Reader instead, and I think you'll find both of those problems will go away.

I apologize for taking so long to reply. I was using preview for OSX and adobe acrobat did fix the issue.

thank you


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

You are completely ignoring the existence of the Angel-powered Warlock from Complete Mage. Angels should be another elective path/sponsor for you, especially with Dresden as an inspiration.

==Aelryinth

Thats why you get a soulfire as a choice


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I like it. Thanks Smilodan.
couple of things though:
idk if you should be able to have hellfire, and soulfire at the time, just one or the other. Maybe if you already have one (say hellfire), and a few levels later get the other (soulfire)your previous choice(hellfire) automatically becomes the new type as if you had chosen it multiple times (soulfire)

Also, while this conversion helps some with versatility and survivability, it still massively lags behind on damage. I think we should either boost skills again (from 4/level to 6/level) to make it a skill class, give it an ability to attack with eldritch blast more often per round equal to its BAB in the early levels (instead of after you already get other cool things to do to make up for weak damage) or increase damage die to 1d8.

As is, it makes a great solo adventure class that can almost do a bit of everything and survive even if he isnt a kill machine. However, I want to be able to play him with the rest of my party. First 3 levels he does great damage and when he gets greater invocations he gets more battlefield control so damage isn't as big a deal but from 4 to 11 he goes from a cool concept to "I'm bored and mostly worthless. please kill me so I can play something else".


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

@kaisoku- I was to excited about the magus to even notice the words of magic I'll check them out.

@pale- Same here. Jim's books seem to keep coming out during major changes in my life and somehow touching on the same issues (you know interpersonal-interaction wise not magic and stuff... IM NOT CRAZY);). I always seem to realize he has a new book and end up reading it during a major crisis in my life where it gives me a reprieve during from the stress (deployments, divorce, deaths of friends/family, etc., etc. Jim always gots my back).
But for the Class I just always liked the idea of the class and the setup and kinda wished it was more effective. Harry is more the class in spirit than me going thru everything about Dresden and turning it into a class.
Ex. I can use ring of the Ram for his kinetic rings or Repelling blast, but both are effective while it would be hard to make a truer representation of Harry work in Pathfinder.
So harry in "Spirit" but warlock conversion=just viable in pathfinder


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I dont know how to update a post :?.
I moved decieve item from level for to level 3. Imbue item replaced decieve item coming down from level 12 to level four. and added free metamagic spell-like ability feats at level 14, and 19.
I think I'll leave the damage die alone and just keep the updated blast shape invocations, and 6/level skill point wont really break the class.

I just need to write up the text for invocation and Eldritch blast. Any ideas?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Pale wrote:
Have to allow for a hellfire or soulfire blast. ;)

Honestly I decided at the beginning to just call it what you want and keep it as damage, because trying to make up a new ability text for soulfire that is true to the novels seems tedious :).


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
SmiloDan wrote:

Looks really good.

A few questions:

Why isn't Spellcraft a class skill?

There are a few quasi-dead levels (3, 14, 19). Any ideas for filling those? Maybe some kind of metamagic spell-like abilities? Empower, Maximixe, Quicken, etc. Maybe move Deceive Item to 3rd level and give bonus metamagic feats at levels 4, 9, 14, and 19? Useful (and usable) for eldritch blasts and (specific) invocations!

Maybe throw in some more cantrips? Their Pathfinderized "at will spell-like ability" status seems to really go well with warlocks.

Hellfire is a really great mechanic. It gives the occasional boost to the eldritch blast when it needs it.

Thanks a lot smilodan

i read a lot of your stuff while trying to come up with this, so thanks for popping in.
Spellcraft was a typo it should be in there I'll fix it. I did notice the dead levels but I wanted to get some opinions before I added anymore stuff.
Decieve item could move and I really want to move imbue item down a bit, so it can be used with scrolls. That should keep any EBlast bonuses in the higher levels but I wasnt sure if I should include those as free feats or make your have to buy them.

My biggest issue though is wording invocations and Eldritch Blast text. Any ideas?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I need some help updating just a few things. I don't want to drastically alter the class like I see with most conversions just beef it up to a pathfinder standard (much less the weak standard of 3.5) by including a hellfire prestige into it and increasing some of its versatility

I basically want to make a kind of harry dresden type class. some magic blasting and battlefield control, resourcefully versatile, hard as hell to kill.

Help with rewording eldritch blast and Invocations class feature to something short, concise, and with none of the confusion, loopholes and endless online searching for errata of the previous version are my biggest concerns.

So far his skills went up to 4/level, his total invocations are up from 12 to 20 at 20th level, his DR/cold iron increases every other level starting at 2nd, His Fiendish resilience gets a small boost and he gets his energy resistance early and its better. His capstone is now making his energy resistance into energy immunity.
I gave him hellfire which beefs up his damage a few times per day in the later levels but its still fairly weak even then. He wont out-damage or outlast a warrior(not even close) and he'll never be as powerful as a wizard/sorcerer(or even in the next closest weight class), but I want to avoid stepping on the rogues toes if i can (which is hard because everyone I play with, including players who mainly play rogues think they need a boost themselves). Undecided if I want to boost his skill points again to from 4 to 6/level to increase his versatility or if I should boost damage by either boosting his EB to d8 or changing his first to blast shapes to allow multiple attacks with your BAB
Example:

Eldritch Shot: Imbue a ranged weapon with your Eldritch Blast damage for all ranged attacks made by that weapon until the beginning of your next. *this blast shape replaces eldritch spear*

Hideous Blow: Imbue a melee weapon with your Eldritch Blast damage for all melee attacks made by that weapon until the beginning of your next.

Take a look tell me what you think

Spoiler:

medium BaB, High Will Save
Alignment: Any Chaotic or Evil. (dont like chaotic as i think infernals have the best flavor as a patron)
Hit Die: d8.

Class Skills The Warlock’s class skills are Acrobatics(Dex), Bluff(Cha), Craft(Int), Disguise(Cha), Fly(Dex), Intimidate(Cha), Knowledge (Arcana)(Int), Knowledge (Planes)(Int), Knowledge (Religion)(Int), Perception(Wis), Profession(Int), Sense Motive(Wis), Use Magic Device(Cha).

Skill points per level: 4+Int modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the warlock.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Warlocks are proficient with all simple weapons. They are proficient in light armor but not with shields.

*clean up*Invocations: the

*clean up*Eldritch Blast(Sp): the

Damage Reduction(Su): Fortified by the supernatural power flowing through his body, the warlock becomes resistant to physical attacks, gaining DR 1/Cold Iron at 2nd level and increasing by 1 every even level thereafter.

Detect Magic(Sp): Starting at 2nd level, a warlock can use Detect Magic as the spell at will. His caster level equals his class level.
Deceive Item(Ex): At 4th level and higher, a warlock becomes an expert on commandeering magic items made for other classes. Any time he uses Use Magic Device, he may Take 10 even when distracted or threatened.

Energy Resistance(Su): At 5th level and higher, a warlock has Resistance 5 against any two of the following energy types; acid, cold, electric, fire, sonic. Once these types are chosen they cannot be changed. This Resistance increases by 5 every five levels to max of 15 at 15th level

Hellfire Blast (Sp): At 7th level, whenever you use your eldritch blast ability, you can change your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast. A hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage. If your blast hits multiple targets (for example, the eldritch chain or eldritch cone blast shape invocations), each target takes the extra damage. This damage is not fire damage. Hellfire burns hotter than any normal fire and is unaffected by energy resistance. This damage increases by 2d6 damage every 5 levels after 7th, e.g. 12th, and 17th. A warlock can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum one) without penalty, any additional uses per day cost the warlock 1 Constitution damage per use.

Fiendish Resilience: Beginning at 8th level a warlock learns the trick of Fiendish Resilience. Once per day, as a swift action, he can enter a state that lasts for 2 minutes. While in this state, the warlock gains fast healing 2. The amount of fast healing he receives increases by 2 every five levels thereafter, ex. 13th, and 18th.

Hellfire Infusion (Su): Starting at 9th level, a warlock can infuse magic items that he wields with the power of hellfire. Whenever he uses a charged magic item (such as a wand or a staff), he can apply one of the following metamagic effects to his next use of the item: empower, enlarge, widen, or energy substitution. These effects work just like the metamagic feats of the same name. Using hellfire infusion is a swift action. A warlock can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum one). When a warlock infuses an item with hellfire, it glows briefly with fiery symbols that are disturbing to look upon.

*clean up*Imbue Item(Su): Beginning at 12th level a warlock can substitutes a Use Magic Device check (DC 15+spell level for arcane spells or DC 25+spell level for divine) in place of a spell to create items. Should the warlock fail this save he does not lose any of the gp used to create the item, his progress is merely halted, and he must begin crafting again from the beginning.

Energy Immunity(Su): At 20th level, the warlock’s Energy Resistance ability now grants immunity to the chosen energy types.

TABLE:

Spoiler:

Level://Special Abilities://///////////////////Invocations:
1//////Eldritch Blast 1d6, Invocation (Least)///////1
2//////DR 1/Cold Iron, Detect Magic/////////////////2
3//////Eldritch Blast 2d6///////////////////////////3
4//////DR 2/Cold Iron, Decieve Item/////////////////4
5//////Eldritch Blast 3d6, Energy Resistance5///////5
6//////DR 3/Cold Iron, Invocation (Lesser)//////////6
7//////Eldritch Blast 4d6, Hellfire 2d6/////////////7
8//////DR 4/Cold Iron, Fiendish Resilience2/////////8
9//////Eldritch Blast 5d6, Hellfire Infusion////////9
10/////DR 5/Cold Iron, Energy Resistance 10,////////10
11/////Eldritch Blast 6d6, Invocation (Greater)/////11
12/////DR 6/Cold Iron, Imbue Item, Hellfire4d6 /////12
13/////Eldritch Blast 7d6, Fiendish Resilience4/////13
14/////DR 7/Cold Iron,//////////////////////////////14
15/////Eldritch Blast 8d6, Energy Resistance15//////15
16/////DR 8/Cold Iron, Invocation (Dark)////////////16
17/////Eldritch Blast 9d6, Hellfire 6d6/////////////17
18/////DR 8/Cold Iron, Fiendish Resilience6/////////18
19/////Eldritch Blast 10d6//////////////////////////19
20/////DR 10/Cold Iron, Energy Immunity/////////////20


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Also, from personal experience, stick to PDF. Its not like you have much room to keep books.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

ok thanks,
so if a rogue takes at least 3 levels of fighter and wears mithril breastplate he has only has encumbrance to worry about but with 7 levels and mithril fullplate he still moves full speed but loses evasion?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Is this right?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

interestingly the new skills for grappling with a rope fit into the ninja style accurately, as a rope was a common historical weapon and using a rope for multiple purposes was a discipline in itself. now if only we had a a silence trick the ninja would be the ultimate scout (or mage killer).

Silence the guard with a solar plexis strike quietly grapple n tie him up signal the party that the way is clear.
tell me thats not totally ninja

BTW why does the ninja have tricks that mimic items like smoke stick? id much rather just have more items like black eggs than a class feature


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
maddigan wrote:


I have never, ever, ever, ever, never, ever, ever EVER, NEVER, EVER, watched a show, read a book, or seen any show ever represent a ninja without martial arts. You are missing a major iconic ability associated with the ninja when you don't include martial arts.

Usually as a sneak attack,(Drop from behind snap neck) than a main attack. Most real fights with ninjas in movies involve weapons like the kusarigama, sword, or shuriken

maddigan wrote:


But it won't feel like a ninja without martial arts. The fact that there is a fighting system called Ninjutsu you would think would be a big wake up call to the designers that a ninja without Ninjutsu isn't much of a ninja. Though if you do deeper research you find that Ninjutsu is more of a fighting philosophy while the actual martial style is called Taijutsu which translates as "body combat art". It is a style of...

Pulled directly from wikipedia description of ninjutsu

According to Bujinkan members Ninja juhakkei, the eighteen disciplines were first stated in the scrolls of Togakure-ryu;. Subsequently they became definitive for all ninjutsu schools by providing total training of the warrior in various fighting arts and agarter.

Ninja was often studied along with Bugei juhappen (the "18 samurai fighting art skills"). Though some are used in the same way by both samurai and ninja, other techniques were used differently by the two groups.

The 18 disciplines are:[8]

1. Seishinteki kyōyō (spiritual refinement)
2. Taijutsu (unarmed combat)
3. Kenjutsu (sword techniques)
4. Bōjutsu (stick and staff techniques)
5. Sōjutsu (spear techniques)
6. Naginatajutsu (naginata techniques)
7. Kusarigamajutsu (kusarigama techniques)
8. Shurikenjutsu (throwing weapons techniques)
9. Kayakujutsu (pyrotechnics)
10. Hensōjutsu (disguise and impersonation)
11. Shinobi-iri (stealth and entering methods)
12. Bajutsu (horsemanship)
13. Sui-ren (water training)
14. Bōryaku (tactics)
15. Chōhō (espionage)
16. Intonjutsu (escaping and concealment)
17. Tenmon (meteorology)
18. Chi-mon (geography)

The name of the discipline of Taijutsu, literally means "body skill" or "body art". Historically, the word taijutsu is often in Japan used interchangeably with jujutsu (as well as many other terms) to refer to a range of grappling skills. The term is also used in the martial art of aikido to distinguish the unarmed fighting techniques from other (e.g. stick fighting) techniques. In ninjutsu, especially since the emergence of the Ninja movie genre in the 80s, it is also used to avoid the undesired bravado of explicitly referring to "ninja" combat techniques.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Curious to know why most of my artwork is missing from the pdf. I notice in all my pathfinder products missing letters in the titles probably as a way to track file sharing i assume but the artwork? really?

I apologize if this has already been answered but I found nothing using the search bar.

Also a huge improvement would be page and word links through out the document like on the paizo products its my favorite feature and I'm spoiled by it

otherwise great conversion, i was very worried through out much of the play test because it seemed you wanted to kill off the versatility of the powers themselves on top of the casters limited powers but I see its not the case

**** (+1* withheld due to what I CAN see of the artwork but for the price of the book cant really complain)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Why not have both. I think Arcane pool should be tied in with caster level not class level that way going with a prestiges class wont totally gimp the Character. So instead of Half Class Level it should read Half Caster Level plus int mod.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Another change is I think Arcane pool should be tied in with caster level not class level that way going with a prestiges class wont totally gimp the Character. So instead of Half Class Level it should read Half Caster Level plus int mod.

@lyrax
didnt know your crit changed for spells. that is some nice damage and gives a better reason to use spell strike too. very nice


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Anyone think some incarnation of Insightful Strike could really help this class?

Before any flames actually do some math and think about it. Magus is a MAD class. Armor Prof. set up means Dex is going to have some importance especially in the beginning levels. Intelligence is obviously highly important and so is strength/constitution. Even if you have ridiculous rolls the class is stretched thin trying to even compare to other combat classes which all receive some kind of class based damage bonuses not to mention taking a hit to attack on top of the 3/4 BAB just to use the signature ability.
Its low a/c makes me think glass cannon but its Damage output doesn't support this yet its not a skill class and doesn't summon some uber powerful minion.

I don't have time to do the math but if someone feels like it compare this

elf Magus (racial bonus added in already) with weapon finesse and insightful strike - which adds your int mod to your str mod to calculate your damage bonus

18 dex
18 int
14 str
12 con

I love the flavor of this class and the abilities are great but even trying to min max in a non min maxed group it comes out weak. but with insightful strike i can make my favorite character concept (typical elf bladedancer who can actually play like the badass i always roleplay him to be) without the struggle and failure encountered with about 15 splat books.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Anyone think some incarnation of Insightful Strike could really help this class?

Before any flames actually do some math and think about it. Magus is a MAD class. Armor Prof. set up means Dex is going to have some importance especially in the beginning levels. Intelligence is obviously highly important and so is strength/constitution. Even if you have ridiculous rolls the class is stretched thin trying to even compare to other combat classes which all receive some kind of class based damage bonuses not to mention taking a hit to attack on top of the 3/4 BAB just to use the signature ability.
Its low a/c makes me think glass cannon but its Damage output doesn't support this yet its not a skill class and doesn't summon some uber powerful minion.

I don't have time to do the math but if someone feels like it compare this

elf Magus (racial bonus added in already) with weapon finesse and insightful strike - which adds your int mod to your str mod to calculate your damage bonus

18 dex
18 int
14 str
12 con

I love the flavor of this class and the abilities are great but even trying to min max in a non min maxed group it comes out weak. but with insightful strike i can make my favorite character concept (typical elf bladedancer who can actually play like the badass i always roleplay him to be) without the struggle and failure encountered with about 15 splat books.


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any one?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

But aside from that for the most part I'm comfortable with the class layout, it looks very viable to me. Using Int as a damage modifier on top of strength and Dex for hit accuracy and armor boosts then coupled with Arcane Strike I'm hoping will keep it at least in the same league as a fighter for damage potential but with more mobility and better against Magic threats. just wanted a second opinion.
I also plan on sticking with high crit chance attacks don't is that a good idea?

My biggest concern though is spells, feats, and what gear to strive for. Also I have a rough idea of the tactics ill be using but any suggestions wont hurt thanks again guys


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
VV wrote:
Wiz3//Swash3>Swash2/AC5 works.

The problem with this is while you maintain caster level you still have 2 levels where your spell advancement is stalled. I would suggest that the 2 levels of advancement lost from taking 2 levels of swashbuckler are not worth the caster level increase. Also, if you go straight wizard on the non-AbChamp/ Gestalt rules then your caster level will be full regardless.

I would suggest just take the first 3 gestalt levels then wizard 4 then Abjurant Champion. Your BAB drops by 1 versus your original design but you don't sacrifice any spell advancement. Being able to cast 6th level spells at 11th level is more than worth the drop in BAB.

Off the top of my head I'm not sure Swashbuckler gives you the weapon proficiencies you need for Eldritch Knight.

Thats what I was thinking also but on the other hand i didnt want to wait that long to get into AbjChp. I'm hoping that the armor penalty wont be so horrible those first 5 levels but i also dont want to hold out over long on getting the Chpions armor bonus, hence the level of Eldritch Knight to keep the spell progression w/o waiting for another level for BAB requirements.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The cap stone abjurant champion ability allows you use your BAB or your actual caster level which ever is higher. Not sure if that was what you are talking about or not.

also Swashbuckler has Proficiency with all simple/martial weapons and light armor but no shields so it qualifies.

Thanks for the advice on the build. I looked it up and that would be powerful especially with almost all my relevant abilities based on Int which will be around 19-20 starting out.

Downside of this is trying to convince the DM to allow all the multi-class and splatbook feats. That's gonna be a bit of a hassle i was thinking something with less core multiclassing.

I would really like to take some bladesinger levels for the Int to AC but doesnt seem worth it also hopefully paizo gets around to remaking it or maybe my DM will let me condense the class into five levels with full spell progression which just seems fair.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

WOW lotta info there thnx,

gonna look this over abit


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Also just to clarify this will be a fighting class, the gestalt levels mean i dont lose as much spell power which is nice, but if it wasnt gestalt it would be (Swashbuckler/fighter/wizard/abjurant champion/eldritch knight 3/1/2/5/remaining levels) focus is on combat.

As we are trying to do this with just three somewhat powerful characters i believe all three will be somewhat less fragile (unless we get a mystic theurge), coupled with two battlefield controllers to keep enemies where we want them to be.

also considering including summons in our battlefield control for meat shields any thoughts thnx in advance


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Sorry I should have clarified. Core pathfinder and the AP is being converted to pathfinder.
Using pathfinder core only for feats and skills and equipment but classes and spells can come from complete series, PHB II, and spell compendium


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Shackled city AP with three characters
DM is letting us start with our first three levels as Gestalt from Unearthed Arcana which means some prestige classes are much easier to qualify for with less penalties such as Arcane Trickster

there's going to be an Arcane Trickster and the other character is as of yet undecided but leaning towards the Cleric/Warlock prestige class (I suggested some kinda Bard/party face/google/healbot class any cool suggestions)
suggestions welcome from anyone with Shackled City experience

For my PC Im thinking a Gestalt Swashbuckler/wizard 3 (which is awesome reason to attempt this build), Wizard 2, Eldritch Knight 1, Abjurant Champion 5

Primary Tank/back up battle field control
Elf with Max Int/Dex
Built around the swashbucklers Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike abilities and backed up with Arcane Strike feat for attack and damage narrowing down my stat requirements. Mage Armor and Shield scrolls are going to provide most of my defense except at the lowest levels where i use studded leather until i get into Abjurant Champion territory.
Spell Priority would be self buff (defense mainly), battlefield control, and mobility.
Spell Selection?
Feat selection besides arcane strike?
Any changes recommended thnx in advance


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

i like to think of gun powder as negatively affected by magic making it unreliable and almost unuseable outside of anti-magic areas.
therefore all guns have to be crafted of cold iron to use and cannot be enchanted.
also consider that the arms are only made in a certain non magic area meaning that powder will be very expensive.
so i would make guns do more damage and recieve the x3 crit and counter balance with cost and availability, and possibly reload times twice that of a crossbow depending on how advanced the tech is so if its early tech long reload times, short range, does spash damage and critically misses on a 1-3 (at which point it blows in ur face causing full damage and destroying the weapon) but works kinda like a short range low level fireball for non-magic types.
higher tech is more accurate (no splash damage), longer range, shorter reload times, (repeating 8 shot crossbow), but requires an exotic WP:fire arms feat and still costs more.
high tech compares to the different crossbows (think expensive, exotic weapon school crossbows that dont take magic well)
lower tech is expensive dangerous more powerful alchemist fire without any damage carrying over the next round


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just moving to killeen will be in austin for about 1 1/2 months but wont be to far away for a game every other weekend plan on visiting dragons lair today to pick up dice mind if i join. and what levels/classes should i plan to build as im still getting familiar with the pf core rules and dont want to overload on all the classes at once?
thnx in advance


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

btw if Im wrong in the above post please feel free to constructively correct me as i have a somewhat tougher skin than other posters on this thread and will not take offense and can admit it if shown that im am wrong. im not a GM or expert player tho i do have alot of experience with this build (one of my favorites) as a player, bt dont mind learning new things


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The dex based, spiked chain trip build that used combat reflex that everyone is so worried is overpowered (which doesnt really make sense to me since while it was awesome in some situations those situations only came around about a quarter of the time and then the rest of the time it was either useless or merely useful.) in 3.5 required combat exp, imp trip, combat reflex, weapon finesse, and EWP spiked chain. very feat intensive to build this character so what i dont understand is why everyone believes that a fighter with that many feats shouldnt be pretty powerful without being a str based damage build.
but since thats not the topic of this thread.
even if the build was overpowered (a highly debated opinion i dont share btw) that was 3.5 paizo changed the rules with combat maneuvers which make such a build so much harder and more feat intensive, changed the feats so they give less bonus, and now killed the weapon that made it worth it. what you guys are forgetting is how feat intesive it is to be a dex chain trip build
first you need Agile maneuver (just to use dex for manuevers), then combat expertise, improved trip (which has half the bonus of 3.5), weapon finesse, and Exotic weapon prof. spiked chain.
FIVE FEATS for a build that is even harder to pull off due to the change in how Combat maneuvers work meaning much less reliability.
When a strength build fighter can now do it better with a flail with just two feats (combat exp, imp trip)
So Im very curious why you would nerf a cool useful weapon (that was in no way overpowered considering feat cost to use and it limited effectiveness without a certain build) which would make such a build still have some usefulness?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

you guys weren't listening to the commentary where u? what u where seeing was the red cloth, which btw was way more distant than a long sword, if you had listened to the commentary you would have heard where they mentioned that the cloth was used to confuse the enemy and was actually a few meters back from the striking dart. that weapon had crazy reach


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

AWESOME THNX LOTS.
anyway u can add the swashbuckler class from complete warrior? and the abjurant champion prestige from complete mage thanks again and let me know if u dont have these books and need the class features.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

another skill fix would be the diplomacy and intimidate do you really need 2 skills to do the same thing. Something i like about 4e that i think would be great is the whole ritual setup makes sense to put all the spells that have alot of set up time and arent used in combat as just a ritual that uses spellcraft instead of spell slots to use. i like where your going with the whole staves thing but i wish you could just make an implement that boost my spellcasting and maybe scales with my level. also i kinda of like how the 4e weapons where fixed giving the weapons more diversity maybe u could do something like that with out over simplifing them like 4e does.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

love how u fixed the skill point system tho i hope u finish cleaning up/combining the skills (swim fly climb=athletics something like that) love what u did with the fighter dont usually play one but might now the hit dice system is better i prefer that characters get thier con score added at first lvl, wish u would do something about the paladins mount being temporary. I think u fixed the cantrips nicely as they're usfull but not worth tracking but what I LOVE MOST SO FAR IS THE CHANNELING SYSTEM its brilliant and how i always wanted my healer class to be dont its the perfect system dont change it or i might hate you (j/k) good work guys liking it so far planning on reading the rest soon and giving an update


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

this is shaping up to be what i had hoped 4e would be. 4e isnt the game i wanna play, no judgment just a fact, everything they said about it made since until the product came out, i like my 3.5e and like some complication/choice in how i play my character. thanks for fixing the game i love