Magus character sheet


Round 3: Revised Magus Discussion


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I've created a prototype Magus character sheet to go with my Pathfinder character sheet set. I'd appreciate any feedback from people who've played the class and know it better than I do. I'll incorporate it into the main document when the final version is released.


sadie wrote:
I've created a prototype Magus character sheet to go with my Pathfinder character sheet set. I'd appreciate any feedback from people who've played the class and know it better than I do. I'll incorporate it into the main document when the final version is released.

Thanks!

Looking over it, I'm not sure that the "Bonus Spells" column calcs correctly; you don't get a bonus 4th-level spell until Int 18, so I'm not sure how "Int - 12" applies. Similarly, you get a second bonus 1st-level spell at Int 20, so I don't understand how the ... Actually, I see what you're doing here. It's something to do with subtracting the number from the Int bonus, and if it's a positive number, you get another bonus spell? Yeah? Okay, that's a little confusing, then.

The Arcane Pool calcs as Magus Level / 2, round-down, min 1, so you might want to specify that.

Many Magus Arcanas have a pool-point cost; perhaps an area to put that in the Magus Arcana section would be good.

I assume that the "Current Enhancement" part is where you mark off what you've currently assigned to your weapon? If so, putting the bonus cost for the various abilities would be good (and a page reference number, if you can fit it in). In play, I'd probably never end up using this section, since I do this sort of thing on separate pieces of paper (elsewise, the constant erasing on my character sheet wears it out too fast). I also don't use "Spells Memorized" areas, for largely the same reasons. For my purposes, a "Here's the weapon enhancements you can add at your level" section would be better (e.g., you get the ability to add Flaming at 5, but you can't add Dancing until 13th (when you pick up the ability to add +4 to a weapon).

Magi (Maguseses?) only get up to 6th-level spells, natively.

The Concentration area could use a slot for "Misc. Modifiers" (like the Focused Mind trait, Combat Casting feat, etc.).

For Spell Combat, you might want to put the attendant bonuses / penalties (e.g., starts at -2 on melee attacks, becomes -2 on melee and +2 on Concentration, then double attack penalty, then autosucceed plus a bonus against SR, Save, etc.).

EDIT: I hope this all helps! :D Please take it in the spirit it is offered.


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Thanks for the feedback! I've uploaded a new version that incorporates some of it.

Patryn of Elvenshae wrote:


Looking over it, I'm not sure that the "Bonus Spells" column calcs correctly ... Actually, I see what you're doing here... Okay, that's a little confusing, then.

I know. When you figure it out, it's a very concise way of noting bonus spells. But until then it's just confusing. I've used a version of that on all my spellcaster sheets. Do you have any suggestions how to improve it, make its meaning more clear?


sadie wrote:
Thanks for the feedback!

No problem! Glad to help. :)

As far as the Int bonus thing is concerned, once I understand how you're doing what you're doing, it makes sense. It just took me a little while to figure out. If your character sheets come bundled together in one large download, then maybe adding a description of how that part works to a "How to use these sheets" page would help?

Under the Arcane Pool section, the "Round down; min 1" text belongs underneath the Level / 2 part.

I love the new Enhancement section, but I'd reword it from "Arcane Pool Cost" to "Enhancement Cost."

The new Arcana section is good! You might want to make the Arcane Pool Cost boxes a little bigger, since some arcanas cost 1 point / spell level, or something similar, so a little more writing room would be nice.

"Defencively" should be "Defensively."

The only thing that's really missing, I think, would be a section near the spells detailing the Pool Spell ability.

Otherwise, I really like the new version of the sheet!


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Patryn of Elvenshae wrote:
sadie wrote:
Thanks for the feedback!
I love the new Enhancement section, but I'd reword it from "Arcane Pool Cost" to "Enhancement Cost."

You have a point. I wanted to make clear that all these different abilities come from the same pool - but it also counts against the maximum enhancement limit, which is more immediate.


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Okay, I've uploaded a new version that I think incorporates most of your suggestions.

I've sacrificed the Scrolls and Potions sections to free up space. That's okay, as those are already taken care of on the Inventory sheet. I've noticed people seem to like having those on class sheets if there's room, but it is redundant.

I used the space to move Arcane Pool over to the right, freeing up space for the Pool Spell (and to ease the layout of the others). I decided to shrink the Arcane Pool box down, since it's not likely to go over 20, which leaves a bit of unused space. I could add some extra lines for spells, but as a spontaneous caster I doubt the Magus would ever use them. You'd need +14 INT to use the space already there.

The character sheets do normally come with an introduction, but I haven't explicitly described how to fill in the bonus spells section. Perhaps I should, but I didn't want to waffle on for too long.


sadie wrote:
Okay, I've uploaded a new version that I think incorporates most of your suggestions.

*applause* I like it! Each version gets better and better. :D

Round Down, Min 1 is misplaced; should be under the Level / 2 part of calc'ing your Arcane Pool size.

For Pool Spell, there are three tiers:

Pool Spell (Level 4) - Any magus spell you know; 1 point / base spell level, +1 point per metamagic spell level

Improved Pool Spell (Level 11) - Any magus spell you know; 1/2 point / base spell level, min 1, +1 point per metamagic spell level

Greater Pool Spell (Level 19) - Any wizard spell; 1/2 point / base spell level, min 1, +1 point per metamagic spell level, +1 point per spell level if not a magus spell

I don't know if there's room to incorporate the actual rules, but a checkbox for which level you're at (plus a page reference, once Ultimate Magic comes out!) would be a good minimum if it'll fit.

Is there any room to add the spell ranges calcs (Short, Medium, Long) to the spell section of the sheet? I hate looking those up / calc'ing them in real time.

Otherwise, I'll be printing this out for this week's gaming. :D


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Another new version uploaded.

Patryn of Elvenshae wrote:
For Pool Spell, there are three tiers

Good point. That makes the left column a little tighter, but it just fits. Don't make me add anything else!

Patryn of Elvenshae wrote:
Round Down, Min 1 is misplaced; should be under the Level / 2 part of calc'ing your Arcane Pool size.

Fine, I give up, you can have it under the division. But I don't think it looks very good there, and may very well change my mind.

Patryn of Elvenshae wrote:
I don't know if there's room to incorporate the actual rules, but a checkbox for which level you're at (plus a page reference, once Ultimate Magic comes out!) would be a good minimum if it'll fit.

I don't include page numbers on my sheets. If I did, there's be hundreds of them, cluttering up every inch. Each person finds they need different pages regularly, so it's up to them to note it if they need to.

Some other classes' pages have a chart for their level progression with a line and checkbox for each level, but only if the sheet has space and the class has enough isolated class features to deserve it. When a class's features are strongly grouped like the Magus, I prefer to keep them organised together.

As for keeping track of non-Magus things like what level you are, I suggest you have a look at the other pages. They're quite nice (and it's where the Magus will migrate once the book is out).


sadie wrote:
Another new version uploaded.

Yay!

Patryn of Elvenshae wrote:
For Pool Spell, there are three tiers
Patryn of Elvenshae wrote:
I don't know if there's room to incorporate the actual rules, but a checkbox for which level you're at (plus a page reference, once Ultimate Magic comes out!) would be a good minimum if it'll fit.
sadie wrote:

I don't include page numbers on my sheets. [...]

Some other classes' pages have a chart for their level progression with a line and checkbox for each level, but only if the sheet has space and the class has enough isolated class features to deserve it.

Sorry - you misread me, or I wasn't clear. I was referring to putting the rules or a page reference for the various levels of Pool Spell abilities. You added the rules, so obviously they fit! I suggested the page numbers in the event that they didn't fit in the space easily. :)

I was not referring to a more general check-box system for all the level-based abilities, which I agree would be overkill.

For the specific rules text in the Pool Spell area:

Level 11: I think this still has to be a spell you know, rather than just any Magus spell - though you can use the Knowledge Pool ability to add them to your "known spells list" for 1 day. You don't get the ability to cast a spell you don't know using Pool Spell until the level 19 version of the ability.

Additionally, there's still a minimum of 1 when you divide the spell level by 2 at this level (e.g., casting a cantrip or a level 1 spell still costs you 1 Arcane Pool point). And, obviously, the "Minimum 1" applies to the 1-point-per-level part of Pool Spell.

Level 19: The "not a Magus Spell" cost is 1 per spell level. So, casting a 6th-level Wizard spell, not on the Magus spell list, would cost you:

(Spell Level / 2; Min 1) + Metamagic Adjustment + Non-Magus Cost
(6 / 2; min 1) + 0 (Metamagic) + 6 = 9 points from your Arcane Pool

Casting a 6th-level Magus spell you don't have in your spell book would cost 3 points. Casting a 5th-level Magus spell you don't have in your spell book, modified by the Silent Spell metamagic feat, would cost:

(5 / 2; min 1) + 1 + 0 = 4 points from your Arcane Pool

sadie wrote:


Fine, I give up, you can have it under the division. But I don't think it looks very good there, and may very well change my mind.

The only reason I'm ... uh, harping on it ... is because the "Min 1" applies to the division part, not to the total. The starting size of the Arcane Pool is (Magus Level / 2; Min 1) + Int Modifier, rather than (Magus Level / 2 + Int Modifier), Min 1.

The first operation (correctly) gives a level 1 Magus with 16 Int a pool size of 4; the second a pool size of 3.


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Patryn of Elvenshae wrote:


Sorry - you misread me, or I wasn't clear... I suggested the page numbers in the event that they didn't fit in the space easily. :)

Ah, I see!

Patryn of Elvenshae wrote:


Level 11: I think this still has to be a spell you know, rather than just any Magus spell

That actually helps the layout, by removing one line...

Patryn of Elvenshae wrote:


Additionally, there's still a minimum of 1 when you divide the spell level by 2 at this level (e.g., casting a cantrip or a level 1 spell still costs you 1 Arcane Pool point). And, obviously, the "Minimum 1" applies to the 1-point-per-level part of Pool Spell.

...but there's no way I'm fitting an explanation of all that in there. In cases like this I'm taking the position that the player should own the book and know the rules, and the sheet is only a reminder.

To be fair, both rounding down and using a minimum of one when dividing levels is the default for most rules - rounding up or dividing to produce zero are the exceptions.


sadie wrote:


...but there's no way I'm fitting an explanation of all that in there.

It seems like it wouldn't be too difficult - obviously, you'd do a cleaner job, but I mocked up the following:*

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/Elvenshae/Pool_Spell.jpg

The only reason I think the particular layout is important is because, let's say you were using Pool Spell to cast a Still Spell Ray of Frost.

At level 4, when you get the ability, it costs you 2 points - one for the spell level (min 1), +1 for the metamagic cost - as opposed to 0 (spell level) +1 for the metamagic cost, for a total of 1, min 1.

* I didn't fix the text on the level 11 ability, since you mentioned that you'd accomplished it already.


why would casting a 6th level wizard spell not on your list be 9 point? maybe I'm interpreting the wording wrong but I've always thought you only halved the spells on your spell list so while acid fog will cost you 3 points a 6th level wizard spell not on your list would cost 6 points. nowhere in the text does it say additional points it just says "must expend a numberof points from arcane pool equal to the spell's level"


theveggiejerk wrote:
why would casting a 6th level wizard spell not on your list be 9 point? maybe I'm interpreting the wording wrong but I've always thought you only halved the spells on your spell list so while acid fog will cost you 3 points a 6th level wizard spell not on your list would cost 6 points. nowhere in the text does it say additional points it just says "must expend a numberof points from arcane pool equal to the spell's level"

Casting a spell using your Pool Spell ability, at that level, requires "expend[ing] a number of points from his pool equal to 1/2 the spell’s level (minimum 1)." (Improved Pool Spell)

I read the next level's ability - "if the spell is not also on the magus spell list, he must expend a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the spell’s wizard spell level" (Greater Pool Spell)- as being additive to the previous ability.

The Greater Pool Spell ability definitely gets you around the "must know the spell or get it through Knowledge Pool" limitation that's present in Pool Spell and Improved Pool Spell.

You might be right, though. Good question. Sorry, Sadie - I might have been wrong on that one.


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At this point I'm going to wait for the finished product before getting to deeply into rules interpretation. Also, my DM won't let me play one yet :`(


sadie wrote:
At this point I'm going to wait for the finished product before getting to deeply into rules interpretation.

Probably a good idea! :D

Quote:
Also, my DM won't let me play one yet :`(

But ... After all the work you did ... Maaaaan!

Sorry to hear that.


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Well, I haven't played most of the things I've done sheets for. I did dozens of classes for 3.5, supplement after supplement, and I don't think I'll ever play 3.5 again.

Besides, I'd need to kill off my poor innocent L2 Cleric first. Which is actually quite likely given the fight that's coming up.


dude, come to my table, and play it if you please...
my stories are like a horror and ghotic

ravenloft looks like a pussycat versus my modules... poor strad.

can you teachme how to make a character sheet, i need to create one for my campaign

Dark Archive

Sadie, more great sheets from you. I've been using the Wizard sheet since we started but I'm excited to be able to use this new sheet for my Magus.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
judas 147 wrote:


can you teach me how to make a character sheet, i need to create one for my campaign

Do you mean how to fill in these sheets, or how to create a new sheet for another class?

If the first, then remember this Magus sheet goes with my Pathfinder collection. If you download the main document, there's an introduction and an example sheet filled in.

It the second, you'll need Illustrator or something similar. All my pages for this are open source, so you can take a look at them here on Google Code.


mmmm
i refer to how to create a character sheet
youll mentioned an illustrator...

any to start?

and if u can, a some kind of guide to how to use it

youre character sheets are awesomes uniques...
but, i dislike the redundant thing in every type of character, since 3rd to date.

ex:
AC 10+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x++x+x+x+x=x
touch 10+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x++x+x+x+x+x+x+x+

but yours are awesome really

Shadow Lodge

judas 147 wrote:


youre character sheets are awesomes uniques...
but, i dislike the redundant thing in every type of character, since 3rd to date.

ex:
AC 10+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x++x+x+x+x=x
touch 10+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x++x+x+x+x+x+x+x+

but yours are awesome really

My personal preference is the exact opposite. With the LARGE amount of bonus types in the game, and seeing as how only dodge bonuses stack, its nice to know just how you arrived at your scores. Plus it makes double checking as a GM an easier job. If you just write down that your AC is 21, its very easy to really have a 19, but adding in bonuses that shouldn't stack. But thats my personal preference, of course.


mmmmmm
look at the pregenerated character, how many spaces they occupy, and there is evrything you need
i work with that kind of sheets

but, this ones are awesomes... i dont care use a 8 pages of character sheet, wish paizo took them and use in the next players guides


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judas 147 wrote:

i refer to how to create a character sheet

youll mentioned an illustrator...

any to start?

Adobe Illustrator is the program I used to create these sheets. If you want to create your own, you'll need a program like that.

Do you want to make a sheet like mine, or a completely new one?

judas 147 wrote:

but, i dislike the redundant thing in every type of character, since 3rd to date.

ex:
AC 10+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x++x+x+x+x=x
touch 10+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x++x+x+x+x+x+x+x+

Like a lot of things, I saw that expanded layout on somebody else's character sheet and promptly pinched it. I knew it would be useful, for the reasons Kabump gives: it makes clear where the results come from. I can't claim I invented all the things that people like about my sheets, but I brought them together well.

judas 147 wrote:

look at the pregenerated character, how many spaces they occupy, and there is evrything you need

i work with that kind of sheets

It sounds like you need a tool like Hero Lab. It makes very small character sheets for your character. The trade-off is that they are less flexible once you've printed them.


thanks, im going to work on my character sheet..... er...
can you helpe? via msn or alike?

theres my mail
donovan_strad_cain@hotmail.com


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judas 147 wrote:
er...

I don't know what you're making, but here's some general purpose advice:

  • Scribble your ideas in pencil first, so you can see if they really work.
  • Accept that you're not perfect. You will make mistakes. Don't be afraid to change your mind.
  • Get lots of feedback from other people, early and often. But you can't please everyone. Listen to what everyone wants, but don't do everything they tell you to.
  • Check out the competition. Have a look at as many of the different character sheets as you can, and decide what makes them good or bad.
  • Don't try to make the first version pretty. Make them functional first, then pretty later. Decoration is less important than structure.
  • Keep copies of all your experiments. You never know when you'll want one of them. Source control (like google code) is one way to do this.

Now the philosophy's out of the way, some specifics.
  • Get the right piece of software. Don't try to make it in Excel. I use Adobe Illustrator, but there are plenty of other, cheaper options. Learn how to use the software by doing experiments.
  • Learn the alignment tools. You should know how to align a group of elements at their left edge, how to position elements evenly, and how to arrange elements so there's even space between them.
  • Use groups. They're good for evening out spaces, and for copy-pasting.
  • Set some guides for the basic shape of your page, and keep the same ones on all your pages. The Golden Ratio is a good place to start.
  • Choose a set of shapes, colours, images, fonts and layouts that you can use again and again. At the same time, don't be afraid to make each page unique in some way.
  • Make sure any fonts you use are easy to read. It's also nice if they're legal: Font Squirrel is a good place to get legal free fonts.
  • Be careful about details like spelling, and be consistent.

Finally:
  • The editor's decision is final. Be firm.


dude, thanks a lot....
youre awesome in teaching ways

really, thanksyoure time, its useful notes there


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Along with the release of Ultimate Magic (or at least the PDF), I've made a new version of the Magus sheet. It places more emphasis on the weapon, and on the concentration calculation. I hope the changes are helpful, and do point out anything I've done wrong.

Download Magus.pdf

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