Here is Joshua's answer to the same question in the 2.0 FAQ thread:
No. The total reward assumes that everything found is then sold and the PCs divided the loot equally. It's not 100% realistic, but it works better in an org play environment than the alternatives.Loot/reward rules:
3: The party finds 5 cure light wounds potions, and uses 2 of them during the adventure. Am I supposed to take away 50/12=4.16gp from the total reward to indicate those were used instead of sold?
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Last GenCon I brought a Print out of all the stuff from Chapter 13 that was allowed in Society Play for my players Use. Is that acceptable or do the players still need to have their own copies?
If it is acceptable, I am planning on having an iPad next GenCon, is just having the PDFs on the iPad acceptable for my players and myself as a player?
A player needs either the physical product or a print-out from the PDF they downloaded from paizo.com with their name and email address on the PDF as a watermark in order for any of the items in Chapter 13 to be legal for play for them.
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A player needs either the physical product or a print-out from the PDF they downloaded from paizo.com with their name and email address on the PDF as a watermark in order for any of the items in Chapter 13 to be legal for play for them.
Um... this was not something I ever even considered would be required and have never thought to enforce. Can I share with my wife?
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A player needs either the physical product or a print-out from the PDF they downloaded from paizo.com with their name and email address on the PDF as a watermark in order for any of the items in Chapter 13 to be legal for play for them.
SO wait... The PDF on My iPad with my watermark on it is not legal for myself as a player? I can understand it not being legale for players in a Game I am GMing, But I have to actually print it out? The electronic version of the PDF is not legal for myself as a player?
A player needs either the physical product or a print-out from the PDF they downloaded from paizo.com with their name and email address on the PDF as a watermark in order for any of the items in Chapter 13 to be legal for play for them.Um... this was not something I ever even considered would be required and have never thought to enforce. Can I share with my wife?
From page 30 of the Guide:
In order to use these additional resources for your character, you must bring a physical copy of the book with you or the printed-out appropriate pages detailing cost (if any) and explanation for each feat, item, spell, prestige class, and so on that you use from the materials listed below. (If you’re bringing a print-out of the pages, they must be from the actual Paizo PDF and not in a blank word processing document).
This text has been in the Guide since day 1.
And yes you can share with your wife. :-)
A player needs either the physical product or a print-out from the PDF they downloaded from paizo.com with their name and email address on the PDF as a watermark in order for any of the items in Chapter 13 to be legal for play for them.SO wait... The PDF on My iPad with my watermark on it is not legal for myself as a player? I can understand it not being legale for players in a Game I am GMing, But I have to actually print it out? The electronic version of the PDF is not legal for myself as a player?
It's legal for you to use your iPad as proof of ownership of the product. In 2.3, I'll add language to support digital readers to the section of text I quoted above.
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It's legal for you to use your iPad as proof of ownership of the product. In 2.3, I'll add language to support digital readers to the section of text I quoted above.
Thanks! Apple almost loss a sale there ;).
You may also want to change the language to show it is done to show proof of ownership, as it reads now I assumed it was done because we could not assume a GM would bring everything with them. That language made me think that as a GM if I did bring everything They were good to go!
The last thing I want to do is tell a married couple that they have to buy two copies of something. :-)
I'll think on a way to re-word this that captures the "I want to make sure you bought this" essence as well as proving ownership.
The last thing I want to do is tell a married couple that they have to buy two copies of something. :-)
I'll think on a way to re-word this that captures the "I want to make sure you bought this" essence as well as proving ownership.
Really?
So here is a hypothetical situation for you, as I do not currently even have a gaming group. But let's say you have a group of five or six people who want to start playing PFS, either with home games or at local game stores or cons. But because of the bad economy only two or three of them can afford the Core Book and amongst everyone in the group they can afford one copy the Bestiary and one of each of the books that have allowed source material for OP. Now because there is more flexibility in home games, they would all be able to legally play without every one of them owning their own copies of everything, correct?
But if this same group of friends were to go to an organized event at a store or convention, most of them would be screwed over and not be allowed to play because there are not enough copies of every book for all of them to use. Is this also correct?
Now, let's say each member of the group does have the $10 for the pdf of the Core Book but the group still only owns one copy of all the other allowed material. If two or more members of this group wanted to use the same non-core material at an event, then some of them would not be able to play their characters because they do not each own their own copies?
I had always thought that, other than owning your own Core Rulebook, as long as you had a valid photocopy or printout from the non-core material, whether you owned the book or you got it from a friend, that you would be legal at a table.
So have I misunderstood all this time and PFS is actually a pay-to-play organization, just rather than monthly or yearly dues, you are required to buy books or you are not allowed to play?
So have I misunderstood all this time and PFS is actually a pay-to-play organization, just rather than monthly or yearly dues, you are required to buy books or you are not allowed to play?
Nothing forces a PFS player to choose equipment, traits, character classes from the resources listed in Chapter 13. If you don't own the resources from that chapter then avoid them for your character and people can still play in convention PFS games with a really low bar for entry.
So have I misunderstood all this time and PFS is actually a pay-to-play organization, just rather than monthly or yearly dues, you are required to buy books or you are not allowed to play?Nothing forces a PFS player to choose equipment, traits, character classes from the resources listed in Chapter 13. If you don't own the resources from that chapter then avoid them for your character and people can still play in convention PFS games with a really low bar for entry.
Exactly; you can make a perfectly fine character using just the stuff in the Core Rulebook. In fact, out of all of the PFS characters I've seen, only a very small fraction have used stuff from outside of the Core Rulebook.
But as to your hypothetical situation: I doubt the Pathfinder Society Secret Police are going to break down the door to your house and tell you and your five friends how to play your home game. But the "must own a copy" situation is critical if you're playing at a convention; otherwise you may end up without a copy of the book that contains your feat/trait/prestige class/whatever, and the GM can't just take your word on what the rules really say.
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So have I misunderstood all this time and PFS is actually a pay-to-play organization, just rather than monthly or yearly dues, you are required to buy books or you are not allowed to play?
You are expected to own the core rulebook to play yes.
The fact that you need to own the other sources bugs me a bit also but not too much, Paizo ultimately puts a lot of time effort and money into putting together PFS. The cost of the adventures they release and other things they put together is in a large part subsidized by product sales.
If Pathfinder was like Magic the Gathering where spending large amounts of money were required to be competitive it would bother me but Pathfinder isnt' competitive and you can craft a perfectly capable character using just the core book ($31 delivered to your home from Amazon).
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So have I misunderstood all this time and PFS is actually a pay-to-play organization, just rather than monthly or yearly dues, you are required to buy books or you are not allowed to play?You are expected to own the core rulebook to play yes.
The fact that you need to own the other sources bugs me a bit also but not too much, Paizo ultimately puts a lot of time effort and money into putting together PFS. The cost of the adventures they release and other things they put together is in a large part subsidized by product sales.
If Pathfinder was like Magic the Gathering where spending large amounts of money were required to be competitive it would bother me but Pathfinder isnt' competitive and you can craft a perfectly capable character using just the core book ($31 delivered to your home from Amazon).
Not only that, Luckily the vast majority of Good traits are available in a free PDF!
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But if this same group of friends were to go to an organized event at a store or convention, most of them would be screwed over and not be allowed to play because there are not enough copies of every book for all of them to use. Is this also correct?
Now, let's say each member of the group does have the $10 for the pdf of the Core Book but the group still only owns one copy of all the other allowed material. If two or more members of this group wanted to use the same non-core material at an event, then some of them would not be able to play their characters because they do not each own their own copies?
I had always thought that, other than owning your own Core Rulebook, as long as you had a valid photocopy or printout from the non-core material, whether you owned the book or you got it from a friend, that you would be legal at a table.
So have I misunderstood all this time and PFS is actually a pay-to-play organization, just rather than monthly or yearly dues, you are required to buy books or you are not allowed to play?
The primary purpose of the rule is so that the judge doesn't have to pack a suitcase of books to ensure that whatever a character is attempting is acceptable since there are so many resources which include feats and traits. As for your group playing together at a convention most judges don't have a problem if you share resources between your members if at the same table. I think the intention of the rule in this regard is so that if you are at one table and your friends are at another table you're not disrupting the game by running around trying to find what you're looking for.
The requirement of players having copies of the book related to their character's abilities is not new. It has been done in various organized play forums, including the RPGA. I'm sure it is also upheld in many home campaigns as well, granted in that situation the odds are more in your favor of someone beyond yourself having the book.
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The primary purpose of the rule is so that the judge doesn't have to pack a suitcase of books to ensure that whatever a character is attempting is acceptable since there are so many resources which include feats and traits....
It also ensures that the rule/ feat you are using is authentic and legally acquired.
You could easily print many of the feats out from Karui Kage's great site, or acquire them a number of ways. The problem with a source like that is it's extremely easy to print whatever you want and it might not match what the PFS legal feat actually says. The formatted PDF or physical book is a good bit tougher to fake (not impossible but tougher).
The other piece is that it discourages pirating Paizo's good works. The fact that it's possible to acquire their product through bittorrent is pretty well known and by requiring a legit PDF with a name it enforces legit copies only.
I guess the other bit that goes without saying is it encourages people to buy Paizo stuff supporting the company that's putting together these great events for us.
So that's three things, not 2, authenticity, legitimacy, and supporting the PFS.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So if someone owns a book and only needs a single page from it (like when traveling to a convention), they are not allowed to bring in a scanned version of the page? They have to buy the pdf in addition to the book?
Silly question, but what PF book is so big that you need to worry about the extra weight?
I mean most gamers (including me) could use the exercise of toting around a bunch of books) but really, the PF books aren't that big. A reaper tote bag or for the supremely lazy the Battlehive II should work.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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And, I suppose, that if somebody is running a character with a feat from the Cheliax book, and neglects to bring the Cheliax book to a convention, they can still play the character, just not using the feat, yes?
(But, even if someone else at the table brings a copy of the Cheliax book, they can no more use it as proof of the feat, than they could borrow someone else's shirt for the free re-roll, yes?)
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The last thing I want to do is tell a married couple that they have to buy two copies of something. :-)
I'll think on a way to re-word this that captures the "I want to make sure you bought this" essence as well as proving ownership.
What about Civil Unions, or what happens if you're in a state that doesn't recognize same-sex marriage and the GM decides that means each same sex spouse needs their own copy!
;)
It's a TRAP!
Oh sweet can-of-worm Christ. Mok you may be joking here, or at the very least kidding on the square, but I was afraid of this when I saw the question...ebooks, DRM, piracy.
It is probably least objectionable to stick to the 1 copy, 1 person rule. Yes, that means your wife needs her own copy. That kinda sucks, but is a very minor evil by way of comparison. That also means that Player Collectives are pretty much out of the question for PFS play. This sucks, but a lot less as they are engaged in (arguably) semi-abusive behavior in the first place.
It's a heck of a lot better, however, than Paizo Publishing wading into the 'what defines my household' fray. This is an uber-complex issue and can only end badly for pretty much everyone.
You could try to get into a more complex license model where you pay full cost for the product and then an incremental cost for additional people. Avoiding 'household' definitions and keeping it to a number of people covers the wife and the Player Collective at some cost less than 100% per person.
At the end of the day, however, 1 copy - 1 person is the easiest to implement, understand, accept and fair for the vast majority of cases.
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Perhaps I'm just a raving lunatic, but I believe that a good portion of the GM contract is to be prepared. Many of the traits, feats, etc listed in modules or scenarios are not detailed in the material and you would need to reference the rulebook (unless, of course you have a photographic memory). As others have said, the books for Pathfinder (outside of the core/bestiary) are very small compared to historical gaming manuals. This lends them to be easily carried in a backpack. So it's not a huge issue for me to bring all of my PFRPG matierals when I GM. Perhaps after a few more releases (APG, bestiary II, etc), I'll think differently, but I doubt it. As long as I can confirm a rule/feat/trait, I wouldn't "hose" a player. But, it's a good idea, especially for Cons, to bring all character-related material just in case you don't get a GM as obsessed as I am :)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Perhaps I'm just a raving lunatic, but I believe that a good portion of the GM contract is to be prepared.That's cool, but weight isn't the only factor in whether or not a convention GM has all of the source material. Cost is another large factor.
in the end, yes cost is the largest factor.
The GM is expected to have the Bestiary & Core Rulebook. If you want to bring something to his table that's not in there, it's your obligation as a player to bring the electronic/physical copy of the rule that isn't in there. The advantage to the player for brining the book is that they get to use the Doo-dad in the book. The GM has the benefit of assuming the doo-dad is balanced, can read how the doo-dad works, and have faith that any unbalanced doo-dads have been modified(Adventurers Armoury and elephants) or removed (Rich parents trait)
No GM should be under an obligation to carry every Pathfinder Product around with them. So they aren't. Likewise, PFS attempts to address the issue of a player going "I bought this book, I want to use it!" by allowing that.
Might it be easier to bring a photocopied sheaf of papers than a couple of books? Yes. Blame the internet pirates and torrents for that, rather than complain to the makers of the material.
Perhaps I'm just a raving lunatic, but I believe that a good portion of the GM contract is to be prepared.That's cool, but weight isn't the only factor in whether or not a convention GM has all of the source material. Cost is another large factor.
And lack of interest. I've got plenty of money and yet I still have no desire to buy any pamphlets called "[Insert Race Here] of Golarion".
And lack of interest. I've got plenty of money and yet I still have no desire to buy any pamphlets called "[Insert Race Here] of Golarion".
What if I wrote part of it?
And lack of interest. I've got plenty of money and yet I still have no desire to buy any pamphlets called "[Insert Race Here] of Golarion".What if I wrote part of it?
Let me check...
...nope, still no desire. :-)
(Now, maybe if all of that "Races of Golarion" stuff was combined into one big book like the Campaign Setting, I'd be more interested, but that's getting off-topic.)
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Oh sweet can-of-worm Christ. Mok you may be joking here, or at the very least kidding on the square, but I was afraid of this when I saw the question...ebooks, DRM, piracy.
At the end of the day, however, 1 copy - 1 person is the easiest to implement, understand, accept and fair for the vast majority of cases.
I've never heard of "kidding on the square" and needed to look it up, but yes, being a good postmodernist, I think roughly 50% of everything I say is in the mode of "joking, but also meaning it." I was grinning widely at the can o' worms at the issue of spousal benefits of paizo products.
Another way that can solve it is 1 copy - 2 people. Kind of like software licenses that allow you to load it onto a desktop and a laptop. Its just an acknowledgment of the reality of the world we live in. It also acknowledges the inherent nature of RPGs, which require at least two people to play them. They are at their very essence co-op games.
With 1 copy - 2 people it solves spouses (of whatever definition), along with parents and children attending a con, and even gives some wiggle room for a couple of home gamers who normally share their material between them to be able to go to the con without a lot of fuss.
The position doesn't even need to apply to Paizo products in general, just for the purposes of PFS, so no complicated legal wranglings need to be worked out.
But yeah, not only do I have an iPad, but also a gamer wife, so smoothing this kind of stuff out would be great.
Simple solution. If your wife/SO/whatever wants to use the feat/trait/whatever in your book, give her yours. Then she has her very own copy. She owns it and has it physically present; you just gave it to her. Then on your turn in the initiative order she gives it back to you. You own it and have it physically present. Lather, rinse, repeat until the nonsense of it all becomes unbearable.
I thought the "one step" rule just applied to divine casters such as clerics and inquisitors. Do all player character's alignments actually have to be within one step of their chosen deity regardless of class? If so, does this mean only LG and LN deities can have paladins? Wondering very much, as I'm trying to make up both an oracle and paladin now. Thanks!
There is no hard-and-fast alignment restriction on worshipers of any deity unless there is one required by a class feature (such as paladin, cleric, and druid casting and other powers). While a LN monk could worship Gorum as long as the PC remained lawful, it's not likely, and I'd argue that roleplaying such would result in a shift in alignment from lawful and inability to gain further monk levels. In general, a PC is going to worship a deity that has a similar philosophy as himself, thus the one-step rule. Paladins can exist for LN, LG, and NG deities.
Simple solution. If your wife/SO/whatever wants to use the feat/trait/whatever in your book, give her yours. Then she has her very own copy. She owns it and has it physically present; you just gave it to her. Then on your turn in the initiative order she gives it back to you. You own it and have it physically present. Lather, rinse, repeat until the nonsense of it all becomes unbearable.
In my earlier reply to Joshua's comments that got this all started, my issue is not so much having the book with you at a game, it is the not being able to have a friend photocopy or print out the part you need to make your character legal at a table. The fact that if there is a feat or something in a book that is allowed and you want to make a character with it, but have no use for the rest of the book, that you have to waste $10-20 for that tiny piece of game mechanics just so you can play your character the way you envision it.
I appreciate your answer--just wanted to make sure because the guide appeared to be applying the one step rule to all characters regardless of class. My boyfriend's 7th level character is a paladin of Pharasma, currently. I didn't see anywhere in the core book saying that paladins had to be within one step of their deity(whereas clerics and inquisitors specifically state so)--just that they must be lawful good. He was worried that he would have to rework his whole character concept when he saw this wording. Thanks, again.
I don't think there are paladins of Pharasma, so he should rework his character. In an organized play campaign, I think it helps limit wahoo builds to say that all characters must adhere to the one-step rule. And a paladin should regardless, since a N deity like Pharasma isn't going to grant powers to someone with such strong convictions toward both Good and Law.
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I don't think there are paladins of Pharasma, so he should rework his character. In an organized play campaign, I think it helps limit wahoo builds to say that all characters must adhere to the one-step rule. And a paladin should regardless, since a N deity like Pharasma isn't going to grant powers to someone with such strong convictions toward both Good and Law.I appreciate your answer--just wanted to make sure because the guide appeared to be applying the one step rule to all characters regardless of class. My boyfriend's 7th level character is a paladin of Pharasma, currently. I didn't see anywhere in the core book saying that paladins had to be within one step of their deity(whereas clerics and inquisitors specifically state so)--just that they must be lawful good. He was worried that he would have to rework his whole character concept when he saw this wording. Thanks, again.
Actually Mark, I don't believe Paladins are limited by their deity's alignment in Pathfinder. There's been mention of paladins in a lot of the various deity articles, even if they weren't within one step of LG. One of the more noteworthy ones might be the mention of Paladins of Asmodeus. :)
If the official answer is that he completely has to change his character concept after 7 levels, I'll let him know, but is this really the case for sure?
Josh would be the one you need to wait for an answer from if you want something 100%, irrefutably official. I'm eager to see his response, since I'll feel mighty silly if I've been operating under such a large false assumption all this time.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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In my earlier reply to Joshua's comments that got this all started, my issue is not so much having the book with you at a game, it is the not being able to have a friend photocopy or print out the part you need to make your character legal at a table. The fact that if there is a feat or something in a book that is allowed and you want to make a character with it, but have no use for the rest of the book, that you have to waste $10-20 for that tiny piece of game mechanics just so you can play your character the way you envision it.
Sorry, I don't see an issue with it. Especially 'play your character the way you envision it'.
I don't need a trait to play a character as I envision it. Would the trait make me better at it? Yes, but I don't need Magical Aptitude for my Eldrich Knight, or need a pair of flaming poi for my Hawaiian themed bard.
For that matter, if I've spent the money to get the gnome book for my gnome wizard, and I take the trickster feat, shouldn't I be irritated that Bill brings in a photocopy of Ted's book and it's as valid?
WotC showed that supliments can easily break the game system. While that may become an issue through Pathfinder's life, by forcing players to have the book (or a watermarked PDF) it means that to go through the Pathfinder library to get the feats/traits/gear to min-max a character, they've invested time and money to build that library, resulting in a return on investment.
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Actually Mark, I don't believe Paladins are limited by their deity's alignment in Pathfinder. There's been mention of paladins in a lot of the various deity articles, even if they weren't within one step of LG. One of the more noteworthy ones might be the mention of Paladins of Asmodeus. :)
And Shelyn
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WotC showed that supliments can easily break the game system. While that may become an issue through Pathfinder's life, by forcing players to have the book (or a watermarked PDF) it means that to go through the Pathfinder library to get the feats/traits/gear to min-max a character, they've invested time and money to build that library, resulting in a return on investment.
Let's also be brutally honest here. PFS OP is a means to generate interest in the game which subsequently generates sales. Paizo doesn't dedicate resources to OP solely out of the goodness of their collective hearts; they may love what they do, but they are a business at their core, and they need to make money to survive. Requiring the book at their table rewards customers who have gone above and beyond buying a Core Rulebook and generates an additional sale. As a customer I don't see this as a major problem.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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WotC showed that supliments can easily break the game system. While that may become an issue through Pathfinder's life, by forcing players to have the book (or a watermarked PDF) it means that to go through the Pathfinder library to get the feats/traits/gear to min-max a character, they've invested time and money to build that library, resulting in a return on investment.Let's also be brutally honest here. PFS OP is a means to generate interest in the game which subsequently generates sales. Paizo doesn't dedicate resources to OP solely out of the goodness of their collective hearts; they may love what they do, but they are a business at their core, and they need to make money to survive. Requiring the book at their table rewards customers who have gone above and beyond buying a Core Rulebook and generates an additional sale. As a customer I don't see this as a major problem.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant a return on the player's investment (I <3 my pathfinder library) and on Paizo's investment of Organized play.
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I thought the "one step" rule just applied to divine casters such as clerics and inquisitors. Do all player character's alignments actually have to be within one step of their chosen deity regardless of class? If so, does this mean only LG and LN deities can have paladins? Wondering very much, as I'm trying to make up both an oracle and paladin now. Thanks!There is no hard-and-fast alignment restriction on worshipers of any deity unless there is one required by a class feature (such as paladin, cleric, and druid casting and other powers). While a LN monk could worship Gorum as long as the PC remained lawful, it's not likely, and I'd argue that roleplaying such would result in a shift in alignment from lawful and inability to gain further monk levels. In general, a PC is going to worship a deity that has a similar philosophy as himself, thus the one-step rule. Paladins can exist for LN, LG, and NG deities.
I'd be a bit more forgiving than that. Just recently it's mentioned in the Faction Guide in "Religious Factions" under "10 TPA, 3 CPA: Gain the assistance of a Specialist."
"...What sorts of characters are available varies from religion to religion—Gorum has few druids in his service, and Cayden Cailean has few monks, but both have many clerics, fighters, and rogues ready to serve."
Hence I'd strongly suggest that a character should RP a aspect of the religion that favors his alignment choice, and more than likely let the alignment stand.
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WotC showed that supliments can easily break the game system. While that may become an issue through Pathfinder's life, by forcing players to have the book (or a watermarked PDF) it means that to go through the Pathfinder library to get the feats/traits/gear to min-max a character, they've invested time and money to build that library, resulting in a return on investment.Let's also be brutally honest here. PFS OP is a means to generate interest in the game which subsequently generates sales. Paizo doesn't dedicate resources to OP solely out of the goodness of their collective hearts; they may love what they do, but they are a business at their core, and they need to make money to survive. Requiring the book at their table rewards customers who have gone above and beyond buying a Core Rulebook and generates an additional sale. As a customer I don't see this as a major problem.
+1
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In my earlier reply to Joshua's comments that got this all started, my issue is not so much having the book with you at a game, it is the not being able to have a friend photocopy or print out the part you need to make your character legal at a table. The fact that if there is a feat or something in a book that is allowed and you want to make a character with it, but have no use for the rest of the book, that you have to waste $10-20 for that tiny piece of game mechanics just so you can play your character the way you envision it.Sorry, I don't see an issue with it. Especially 'play your character the way you envision it'.
I don't need a trait to play a character as I envision it. Would the trait make me better at it? Yes, but I don't need Magical Aptitude for my Eldrich Knight, or need a pair of flaming poi for my Hawaiian themed bard.
For that matter, if I've spent the money to get the gnome book for my gnome wizard, and I take the trickster feat, shouldn't I be irritated that Bill brings in a photocopy of Ted's book and it's as valid?
WotC showed that supliments can easily break the game system. While that may become an issue through Pathfinder's life, by forcing players to have the book (or a watermarked PDF) it means that to go through the Pathfinder library to get the feats/traits/gear to min-max a character, they've invested time and money to build that library, resulting in a return on investment.
+1 as well.