I was wondering if (and this might be a silly question) a character could dual wield two heavy shields and make use of the Shield Master feat to avoid the two-weapon fighting penalty all together. A sword-and-board fighter with a little less sword, and a lot more board?
Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. Especially since shield spikes are weapons. And the bashing quality is an armor quality; it's meant to be put on a shield, not a weapon.
It's certainly an issue that needs to be cleared up in the FAQ (which we made strides toward getting done last week). In any case, if a GM is fine with someone basically getting 2H weapon damage with one hand for a mere 9,000 gp, I guess that's fine.
I think treating them as separate weapons would be an elegant solution.
Bash with shield - bashing damage that ignores the shield spike.
Poke with spike - piercing damage that ignores the shield.
A heavy shield is a one-handed weapon, and can be wielded with two hands. There also is no off-hand penalty if it is your only weapon.
I think you misunderstand me, (though again, I could be wrong! *smiles*) but I was wondering if you could wield a shield in each hand as weapons. I know that the Shield bonuses don't stack with each other, but if my interpretation of Shield Mastery is correct, you could completely ignore the penalties for fighting with both of them. (no -4/-4) And, if you could, wouldn't that allow a fighter to make double use of his shield related combat feats and be able to take weapon focus and specialization for one weapon, not to mention they both fall into the close category weapon specialization. Heck, you could even use the brawler build and some field control movement for the fighter for a nice solid, if not wholly optimized, build.
Try shield fighter archetype with 2 weapon fighting, crane style and just unarmed attack as off hand (but he will use all his attacks for shield, according to archetype). ^_^
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"another' in that statement is generally interpreted as 'second weapon', not as 'any weapon other then another shield.' Note that all shields are weapons, and thus a second shield always qualifies as 'another weapon'.
==Aelryinth
Please this post by James Jacobs
Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. ...
But if you're paying for a +1 shield property that ads +1d6 to damage, what's the difference between that and +1 Flaming or +1 Acid ability? You're still paying for a +1 shield property.
Please this post by James Jacobs
Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. ...But if you're paying for a +1 shield property that ads +1d6 to damage, what's the difference between that and +1 Flaming or +1 Acid ability? You're still paying for a +1 shield property.
Increasing base damage by +1d6 is better than +1d6 energy damage. A lot better.
Citation on that?
The only rule that allows you to use a shield for shield bashing says that you use it as an off-hand weapon (another thing that has been FAQed before as hasn't been errated or clarified).
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
Two things.
1. According to the slots section for items there is only one slot for a shield. Doesn't that mean you can only wield one shield? So, you wouldn't be able to hold two shields at the same time.
2. Shield bashing can be done as off hand or primary. FAQ http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r3w
You can dual wield shields. They are weapons, and you can wield two weapons.
NOte that the New FAQ Update has changed how Bashing and Shield Spikes work.
Because Shield Spikes include the language "As if they were one size larger", and Bashing has "as if they were two sizes larger," per the FAQ, they are both considered virtual size increases and do not stack.
ON the flip side, I was introduced to the Allying Weapon Enhancement, which allows you to give your Weapon bonus away to your primary weapon if you are not using it...which A Shield Master is not.
It also means that Bashing and a Spiked Shield is not worth the investment.
Ergo, the new Uber shield is:
+5 Spiked Adamantine Shield, +5 Defending Allying Shield.
Of course, if you want to treat a Spiked Shield as its own weapon, instead of modifying an existing one, and thus allow them to stack, then keep with the Bashing.
==Aelryinth
So I've got a question along these lines, though not directly. When I saw the new Shield Master feat I immediately thought that it would be fantastic to have a viable sword-and-board TWF fighter.
Then I realized the catch. Unless you want to deal with nasty penalties, you're stuck with a light shield up to level 10. At level 11 though, the Shield Master feat lets you disregard all those penalties which means you're going to want to switch to a heavy shield, to make the most of it. But what about all the resources you've already sunk into that light shield? You're left with limited options as far as I know:
* Keep it, and suck it up.
* Sell it for 1/2 price.
* Hope the DM drops a heavy equivilent in your lap.So, I don't suppose anyone knows of a legal way to upgrade an existing (and presumably already magic) shield physically, from light to heavy?
Can you just make board and knife? I mean Heavy Shield in main hand light weapon in off hand.
Humbly,
Yawar
Or you can change the rule that the shield modifies the attack modifier for your primary weapon when used in the off hand, down to 0.
At which point it becomes a non-issue what kind of shield you have, they have the same effect on your main weapon.
==Aelryinth
Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. Especially since shield spikes are weapons. And the bashing quality is an armor quality; it's meant to be put on a shield, not a weapon.But Lead Blades is meant to be put on a weapon, so it should stack with a spiked shield, correct? Of course it wasn't meant to be put on armor, so LB doesn't work on an normal shield then since you can't cast it on armor?
Not anymore. Lead Blades is a virtual size increase, and so will stack with neither spikes nor Bashing.
And yes, you can put it on armor spikes. Note that armor spikes are actually a weapon, where shield spikes are NOT. A SPIKED SHIELD is the weapon. A fine point, but distinct.
==Aelryinth
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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But Lead Blades is meant to be put on a weapon, so it should stack with a spiked shield, correct?
With the new size changing, there is no doubt.
You can't use more than one of these:
Lead Blades, Impact, Bashing, Spiked Shield, etc.
Do as many as you like, only the highest size enhancer counts.
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James Jacobs has repeatedly stated that he is not a rules authority. ^_^Although I 99% agree with this statement generally, he is the sole designer of the Klar.
If anyone should know how it functions, and what can modify it, it should be him.
He is actually the rules guy (and the FAQ for all non-Core products used to actually say that), but for some reason he started saying he isn't a rules guy and they took down the "JJ is rules for non core" sentence.
The dev team can't speak to rules on the Klar until it got printed in Ultimate Equipment.
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NPC Codex says it does. I have no doubt most, if not all, GMs I play with will stack it.
Do you, as you see fit.
Codex isn't a rules source. NPC Stat blocks are abundant source of misunderstood rules application. In 3.5 and Pathfinder.
Your GM are free to houserule as they see fit. They absolutely don't stack in the rules now after the FAQ.
Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. Especially since shield spikes are weapons. And the bashing quality is an armor quality; it's meant to be put on a shield, not a weapon.But Lead Blades is meant to be put on a weapon, so it should stack with a spiked shield, correct? Of course it wasn't meant to be put on armor, so LB doesn't work on an normal shield then since you can't cast it on armor?
Not anymore. Lead Blades is a virtual size increase, and so will stack with neither spikes nor Bashing.
And yes, you can put it on armor spikes. Note that armor spikes are actually a weapon, where shield spikes are NOT. A SPIKED SHIELD is the weapon. A fine point, but distinct.
==Aelryinth
*sigh*
JJ states that the bashing quality "is meant to be put on a shield, not a weapon" That suggest that this a reason the PDT is leaning against bashing's virtual size increase modifying a spiked shield. Note, JJ does not bring up the FAQ as the reason. If that is the rationale for bashing not stacking with a spiked shield, then Lead Blades would still work because it is meant to be cast on a weapon.
I have no idea why you are talking about "armor" spikes in response to my post, it has nothing to do with anything I've asked.
Because other people besides you brought up the subject of armor spikes attached to a shield...which is complete nonsense. You can attach spikes to a shield, or armor spikes to armor, but not armor spikes to a shield.
When they reissued the Klar, some nitwit said it was a shield with armor spikes, which is not only erroneous, it's either impossible or self-defeating, as there is no damage entry in the table for a Shield with Armor Spikes, so it actually does no damage if that is true!
Also, please note that "All Shields are Weapons." JJ's comment amounts to saying "this shield enhancement isn't supposed to be put on any shields."
As for the NPC Codex: That was absolutely correct at the time it was made, Bashing and Spiked Shields were treated as stacking up until the FAQ was issued (there's another example in the Book of Hallowed Might from 3.5)
==Aelryinth
A shield is a one handed weapon. You can use any non-light weapon in 2 hands.
So, yes, you can use a shield in two hands.
You can use a shield as your primary weapon without a problem and have a UA as your off hand. You will doubtless find it more effective to 2h the shield.
==Aelryinth
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how does this all work with a brawler who uses a non-spiked heavy shield with bashing, or impact
While I would love for Bashing to work like that, it appears that the Brawler suffers the same problem as the Warpriest. I initially gave my Warpriest a Bashing shield to get the best of both worlds, but if you read the entry for Brawler or Warpriest you'll see that it says to either use the weapon's damage, or the class's damage, whichever is higher. It doesn't appear you could add Bashing's effects to the Brawler's ability.
Though I hope this gets clarified a bit more with the ACG fixes.
So I've got a question along these lines, though not directly. When I saw the new Shield Master feat I immediately thought that it would be fantastic to have a viable sword-and-board TWF fighter.
Then I realized the catch. Unless you want to deal with nasty penalties, you're stuck with a light shield up to level 10. At level 11 though, the Shield Master feat lets you disregard all those penalties which means you're going to want to switch to a heavy shield, to make the most of it. But what about all the resources you've already sunk into that light shield? You're left with limited options as far as I know:
* Keep it, and suck it up.
* Sell it for 1/2 price.
* Hope the DM drops a heavy equivilent in your lap.So, I don't suppose anyone knows of a legal way to upgrade an existing (and presumably already magic) shield physically, from light to heavy?
Can you just make board and knife? I mean Heavy Shield in main hand light weapon in off hand.
Humbly,
Yawar
As a fighter when you gain a BCF you can switch out a previous BCF for another CF as long as it is not being used as a PreReq for another Feat.
As a fighter when you gain a BCF you can switch out a previous BCF for another CF as long as it is not being used as a PreReq for another Feat.So I've got a question along these lines, though not directly. When I saw the new Shield Master feat I immediately thought that it would be fantastic to have a viable sword-and-board TWF fighter.
Then I realized the catch. Unless you want to deal with nasty penalties, you're stuck with a light shield up to level 10. At level 11 though, the Shield Master feat lets you disregard all those penalties which means you're going to want to switch to a heavy shield, to make the most of it. But what about all the resources you've already sunk into that light shield? You're left with limited options as far as I know:
* Keep it, and suck it up.
* Sell it for 1/2 price.
* Hope the DM drops a heavy equivilent in your lap.So, I don't suppose anyone knows of a legal way to upgrade an existing (and presumably already magic) shield physically, from light to heavy?
Can you just make board and knife? I mean Heavy Shield in main hand light weapon in off hand.
Humbly,
Yawar
But also yeah, one could do that "Main hand Heavy Shield and use light weapon in off-hand, as you can Shield Bash with either primary or off-hand.
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Because other people besides you brought up the subject of armor spikes attached to a shield...which is complete nonsense. You can attach spikes to a shield, or armor spikes to armor, but not armor spikes to a shield.
Just to be 100% clear, I didn't make this out of thin air, it's what's listed under the klar in the UE. If you want to house-rule it away, that's fine but don't pretend it isn't RAW.
PRD/UE/Armor: "A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes."
Just to be totally clear, that's why I cited it...I've seen it at least a dozen times as 'proof' you can do this.
Let's ignore that it's complete corruption of the original klar description, which was 'a spiked shield'.
let's ignore that armor spikes have their entry on the weapon table...when used on armor.
Let's ignore the fact that light spiked shields and heavy spiked shields have an entry on the weapon table.
Let us pay RAW very very strict attention to the fact that 'armor spiked shields' have NO entry on any damage table.
Therefore, if you're using an 'armor-spiked shield' to bash with, you do NO damage. Because such a thing has no weapon entry. I guess sticking armor spikes on it made it useless for bashing.
Meaning, you can now bash with the klar for no damage, or use its blade for d6. That's RAW. Enjoy!
Or, you can display some common sense, laugh at the nitwit who got the transfer of the original language wrong and put armor spikes on a piece of non-armor, and treat it like any other spiked shield.
Your call.
==Aelryinth
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PRD/UE/Armor: "A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes."
And as I showed you earlier, there are two other sources that describe the Klar as a spiked shield.
I am aware of no general rule that the most recent printing of an item is the one that must be used. Even in PFS, where I might own those 2 sources, and not UE.
Given 2 vs 1, and an understanding of the rules on Armor Spikes, I'd say it's a much safer bet to ignore the UE entry.
Call it "RAW" if you want. Otherwise it's silly to keep arguing something that everyone else knows is wrong.
Just to be totally clear, that's why I cited it...I've seen it at least a dozen times as 'proof' you can do this.
Let's ignore that it's complete corruption of the original klar description, which was 'a spiked shield'.
let's ignore that armor spikes have their entry on the weapon table...when used on armor.
Let's ignore the fact that light spiked shields and heavy spiked shields have an entry on the weapon table.
Let us pay RAW very very strict attention to the fact that 'armor spiked shields' have NO entry on any damage table.
Therefore, if you're using an 'armor-spiked shield' to bash with, you do NO damage. Because such a thing has no weapon entry. I guess sticking armor spikes on it made it useless for bashing.
Meaning, you can now bash with the klar for no damage, or use its blade for d6. That's RAW. Enjoy!
Or, you can display some common sense, laugh at the nitwit who got the transfer of the original language wrong and put armor spikes on a piece of non-armor, and treat it like any other spiked shield.
Your call.
==Aelryinth
Armor spikes don't care what they are attached to, they deal their listed damage. There is NO armor spikes-leather, armor spikes-plate so why are you looking for armor spikes-shield? If anyone seems to be lacking common sense...
PRD/UE/Armor: "A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes."And as I showed you earlier, there are two other sources that describe the Klar as a spiked shield.
I am aware of no general rule that the most recent printing of an item is the one that must be used. Even in PFS, where I might own those 2 sources, and not UE.
Given 2 vs 1, and an understanding of the rules on Armor Spikes, I'd say it's a much safer bet to ignore the UE entry.
Call it "RAW" if you want. Otherwise it's silly to keep arguing something that everyone else knows is wrong.
UE as the last entry makes it RAW. That is clear and simple. May it be an error? It sure could but that doesn't alter it's RAWness. If most current isn't RAW then how do you ever update anything?
As to other entries, you just have to look at things like scorpion whip to see that changes keep on coming for some items. What it used to be doesn't mean the new version has to have any continuity with previous ones.
As to armor spike rules, as any rule they may be overridden by a more specific one. I think the one in the klar rule would clearly be a more specific rule for that weapon than the generic armor spike entry.
Armor spikes don't care what they are attached to, they deal their listed damage. There is NO armor spikes-leather, armor spikes-plate so why are you looking for armor spikes-shield? If anyone seems to be lacking common sense...Just to be totally clear, that's why I cited it...I've seen it at least a dozen times as 'proof' you can do this.
Let's ignore that it's complete corruption of the original klar description, which was 'a spiked shield'.
let's ignore that armor spikes have their entry on the weapon table...when used on armor.
Let's ignore the fact that light spiked shields and heavy spiked shields have an entry on the weapon table.
Let us pay RAW very very strict attention to the fact that 'armor spiked shields' have NO entry on any damage table.
Therefore, if you're using an 'armor-spiked shield' to bash with, you do NO damage. Because such a thing has no weapon entry. I guess sticking armor spikes on it made it useless for bashing.
Meaning, you can now bash with the klar for no damage, or use its blade for d6. That's RAW. Enjoy!
Or, you can display some common sense, laugh at the nitwit who got the transfer of the original language wrong and put armor spikes on a piece of non-armor, and treat it like any other spiked shield.
Your call.
==Aelryinth
it's the person who put armor spikes on non-armor, and calls them armor spikes?
Armor Spikes have to be attached to a suit of armor to be effective. It's there in the name. It specifically references armor in the description for enhancing them. It says go look at "Spiked armor" on the weapons table. They have to be attached to ARMOR.
Armor Spikes attached to a shield have no intrinsic properties. Shields are not ARMOR.
Armor Spikes attached to a shield do not make it a SPiked Shield. They make it a shield with Armor Spikes. Armor SPikes are their own weapon. It's exactly the same as saying "I attach a Hammer to my shield."
A spiked shield is a completely different animal. That's RAW. That's how it works.
And that's why the UE language is so idiotic.
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959, the language for making a spiked shield SPECIFICALLY SAYS 'increases as a size larger' language.
That's RAW. Anything else is irrelevant. Because of that language, bashing and spikes don't stack now.
THey DID stack previous.
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And no, I don't agree with the ruling, I just acknowledge it as official. I'll be letting them stack myself, I am just aware that in, say, PFS, they won't anymore.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth: Look up Shadow Piercings (Body Piercings, Greater). Explain to me how they work if you insist that armor spikes do nothing without armor... ("They have to be attached to ARMOR")
It's clear by the item that a specific rule can override the general rule that armor spiked MUST be on armor. Your continued insistence that it can't is baffling to me. I can attach armor spikes to my body but somehow I do it to a shield and it's CRAZY talk... *shakes head*
Aelryinth: Look up Shadow Piercings (Body Piercings, Greater). Explain to me how they work if you insist that armor spikes do nothing without armor... ("They have to be attached to ARMOR")
It's clear by the item that a specific rule can override the general rule that armor spiked MUST be on armor. Your continued insistence that it can't is baffling to me. I can attach armor spikes to my body but somehow I do it to a shield and it's CRAZY talk... *shakes head*
You're making the very wrong assumption that I'm saying "Armor spikes on something else is not possible" when I'm saying "Armor spikes on klars don't work."
What does that MAGICAL item specifically say?
That you are considered to have armor spikes when wearing no armor. In other words, it's referencing the fact that you have to have armor to have Armor Spikes! AAAAAAAAND it's a magical item!
A shield with armor spikes makes no such reference, so there's no exception delineated. It's not a spiked shield, and there's no note to treat it as armor spikes for damage even though its got nothing to do with armor. It's a Non-existent item as far as damage goes, and without the language to 'treat this shield as a piece of armor for purposes of armor spikes', it just does Not Work.
And that's RAW. It's just written WRONG and BADLY. If you're going to cleave to idiotic misquotes made by bad editors, you have to take the bad with the worse.
==Aelryinth
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A spiked shield is a weapon, no sources say otherwise and thus is not a virtual size increase. The FAQ does not apply,You are wrong.Gosh, when you put it like that, suddenly I'm forced to change my whole opinion on the matter.
Like it or not (I don't), it's now the official position unless they re-errata the FAQ.
==Aelryinth
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Like it or not (I don't), it's now the official position unless they re-errata the FAQ.Gosh, when you put it like that, suddenly I'm forced to change my whole opinion on the matter.
I know a fair number of people make house rules to deviate and allow both INA/Strong Jaw and Spiked/Bashing Shield to stack.