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If you have a +1 Shield of Bashing and then have Shield Spikes added to it does it still have its Bashing property? Or whatever properties you put into the spikes (i.e. +1 Flaming) override that ability? Or do they combine?
Not that it's not a valid question, it is, and one I'd quite like to know the answer to. There's just a lot of questions like this popping up lately. I'll do my best to give it a shot, knowing I'll almost certainly miss some subtlety.
A +1 Bashing shield is enchanted as a shield, Bashing is a shield enchantment. Bashing is a peculiar shield enchantment in that its ability enhances the shield's ability to be used as a weapon. A shield with the Bashing property is considered a +1 weapon for to hit and damage as well as being 2 size categories larger for weapon damage roll purposes (light shield is 1d6).
From the PRD: Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
Presumably these enhancements would stack, though James Jacobs has said this was not the intent (2d6 dmg with a heavy shield). I'd consult your DM as to this peculiarity in the rules. RAW it's very powerful and I'd argue it should be houseruled not to stack.
Regardless, a +1 Bashing shield with +1 Flaming on it would act as a +1 weapon (the enhancement bonuses don't stack) that is 2 size categories larger for dmg purposes AND does an extra 1d6 as per Flaming enhancement.
I apologize in advance for muddying the waters further, but a +5 Bashing shield with +5 Defending on it damn near breaks the game. A heavy shield that gives you +12 AC? Pretty crazy.
I'm all for the shield bashing fighter/paladin, I love the build and the feel and all the new feats in PF that help this work. However the amount of rules questions between this and Shield Mastery is almost not worth it :)
Hope this helped.
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They combine and are treated as a shield 3 sizes larger. This was covered in the 3.5 FAQ and the wording hasn't changed with Pathfinder, both the spikes and the Bashing quality improve the 'shield bash'. So a spiked heavy shield with Bashing does 2d6 base damage.
They combine and are treated as a shield 3 sizes larger. This was covered in the 3.5 FAQ and the wording hasn't changed with Pathfinder, both the spikes and the Bashing quality improve the 'shield bash'. So a spiked heavy shield with Bashing does 2d6 base damage.
I understand, but it has recently been addressed that the implication of such is rather overpowered and was never the intent. As I said repeatedly, RAW it works but it's very munchkiny so don't be surprised if a DM puts a stop to it.
Creative Director
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They combine and are treated as a shield 3 sizes larger. This was covered in the 3.5 FAQ and the wording hasn't changed with Pathfinder, both the spikes and the Bashing quality improve the 'shield bash'. So a spiked heavy shield with Bashing does 2d6 base damage.
Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. Especially since shield spikes are weapons. And the bashing quality is an armor quality; it's meant to be put on a shield, not a weapon.
It's certainly an issue that needs to be cleared up in the FAQ (which we made strides toward getting done last week). In any case, if a GM is fine with someone basically getting 2H weapon damage with one hand for a mere 9,000 gp, I guess that's fine.
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They combine and are treated as a shield 3 sizes larger. This was covered in the 3.5 FAQ and the wording hasn't changed with Pathfinder, both the spikes and the Bashing quality improve the 'shield bash'. So a spiked heavy shield with Bashing does 2d6 base damage.Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. Especially since shield spikes are weapons. And the bashing quality is an armor quality; it's meant to be put on a shield, not a weapon.
It's certainly an issue that needs to be cleared up in the FAQ (which we made strides toward getting done last week). In any case, if a GM is fine with someone basically getting 2H weapon damage with one hand for a mere 9,000 gp, I guess that's fine.
Yes, but you really need to devote more to it than just gold. In my opinion, even turning it into a 2d6 weapon for all that is required to be decently with it evens it out. Said character could sinple get a Buckler and a Greatsword (for very much cheaper) and be better off, (have more GP, use less feats, and have a better Crit range and overall attack bonus, relatively similar AC, etc. . .).
That being said, one thing that you could do is change Spiked Shield from increasing the damage by weapon size, and make it a static change. A medium Heavy Sheld does +2 damage with spikes, a Large Heavy Spiked Shield does +4 damage, a Medium Light Spiked Shield adds +1 damage, etc. . .
They combine and are treated as a shield 3 sizes larger. This was covered in the 3.5 FAQ and the wording hasn't changed with Pathfinder, both the spikes and the Bashing quality improve the 'shield bash'. So a spiked heavy shield with Bashing does 2d6 base damage.Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. Especially since shield spikes are weapons. And the bashing quality is an armor quality; it's meant to be put on a shield, not a weapon.
It's certainly an issue that needs to be cleared up in the FAQ (which we made strides toward getting done last week). In any case, if a GM is fine with someone basically getting 2H weapon damage with one hand for a mere 9,000 gp, I guess that's fine.
The problem with saying that spikes are a separate weapon is that they can then be enchanted separately from the shield, which already can be enchanted as both a weapon and shield. So you could have a +5 bashing shield with +5 defending on it AND +5 flaming burst shield spikes, which is even sillier.
It's a pickle.
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They combine and are treated as a shield 3 sizes larger. This was covered in the 3.5 FAQ and the wording hasn't changed with Pathfinder, both the spikes and the Bashing quality improve the 'shield bash'. So a spiked heavy shield with Bashing does 2d6 base damage.Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. Especially since shield spikes are weapons. And the bashing quality is an armor quality; it's meant to be put on a shield, not a weapon.
It's certainly an issue that needs to be cleared up in the FAQ (which we made strides toward getting done last week). In any case, if a GM is fine with someone basically getting 2H weapon damage with one hand for a mere 9,000 gp, I guess that's fine.
Well, the big thing is they aren't getting 2H weapon damage. They're getting 2d6 + offhand weapon damage, and that's about it. To improve it further they have to start over on the weapon enhancement chart, and even then that shield is never going to get better than an off-hand weapon strength bonus.
I'm usually the first to call 'op' but I really don't see the problem with the spiked shield. There's a reason that most two-weapon fighters in 3.5 went with actual weapons instead of weapon and shield.
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They combine and are treated as a shield 3 sizes larger. This was covered in the 3.5 FAQ and the wording hasn't changed with Pathfinder, both the spikes and the Bashing quality improve the 'shield bash'. So a spiked heavy shield with Bashing does 2d6 base damage.Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. Especially since shield spikes are weapons. And the bashing quality is an armor quality; it's meant to be put on a shield, not a weapon.
It's certainly an issue that needs to be cleared up in the FAQ (which we made strides toward getting done last week). In any case, if a GM is fine with someone basically getting 2H weapon damage with one hand for a mere 9,000 gp, I guess that's fine.
The problem with saying that spikes are a separate weapon is that they can then be enchanted separately from the shield, which already can be enchanted as both a weapon and shield. So you could have a +5 bashing shield with +5 defending on it AND +5 flaming burst shield spikes, which is even sillier.
It's a pickle.
See, I don't see that. I would say you could enchant the shield (spiked or not) as a weapon, and armor, or both, but not double up on either end.
See, I don't see that. I would say you could enchant the shield (spiked or not) as a weapon, and armor, or both, but not double up on either end.
That's what I'm saying though, if armor spikes are SEPARATE WEAPONS as JJ says then they can be enchanted separately. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. If they aren't separate weapons then bashing and spikes have to stack because there's no other way to do it, which JJ says wasn't the intent.
Well, the big thing is they aren't getting 2H weapon damage. They're getting 2d6 + offhand weapon damage, and that's about it. To improve it further they have to start over on the weapon enhancement chart, and even then that shield is never going to get better than an off-hand weapon strength bonus.
I'm usually the first to call 'op' but I really don't see the problem with the spiked shield. There's a reason that most two-weapon fighters in 3.5 went with actual weapons instead of weapon and shield.
So a dwarf with 18 str getting 2d6 +6 is OP but 2d6 +4 isn't? Remember that most TWF builds include Double Slice now.
Well first off no fighters went TWF in 3.5 because it was awful. Unless you wanted HUGE penalties you had to have a light weapon, and then that light weapon didn't get bonus damage from Power Attack but did incur the penalty. Also in 3.5 there weren't feats like Shield Slam and Shield Focus and Shield Mastery which is why people didn't go that way. In 3.5 the best they would get was a 2d6 1/2 str offhand weapon for a -4 to all attacks which didn't benefit from Power Attack. No longer the case.
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With Double Slice, sure, you can up it a bit. ANd the other feats help too. But that's the thing, it's a very feat intensive build. For a lot of Two Weapon Fighters, ignoring the shield and just going for a weapon that they can use the same Weapon Training for, the same Weapon Focuses, the same Weapon Specs, etc. (dual short swords has always been popular) is a plus. That, and you don't need to waste time enchanting it as Bashing to up the base damage.
And really, you don't need to as a guy with a shield off-hand either. At most you're adding another d6. An average 3.5 damage per hit for taking some feats and buffing up your shield in a direction that doesn't really help your AC as much. Woo.
I just don't get the fuss. :) Sure I think Shield fighters are fun, but this has been working the same way since 3.5 and I saw just as few guys doing it then as I see doing it now.
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For the same money (9000gp) I could buy a +1 Flaming longsword and do more damage than 2d6.[QUOTE="Karui Kage"
In any case, if a GM is fine with someone basically getting 2H weapon damage with one hand for a mere 9,000 gp, I guess that's fine.
An extra 1d6 fire damage is a LOT different than 2d6 base damage.
Base damage gets multiplied on a critical hit :-)
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An extra 1d6 fire damage is a LOT different than 2d6 base damage.For the same money (9000gp) I could buy a +1 Flaming longsword and do more damage than 2d6.[QUOTE="Karui Kage"
In any case, if a GM is fine with someone basically getting 2H weapon damage with one hand for a mere 9,000 gp, I guess that's fine.
Oh I agree, normal damage has more benefits, though it's really 1d6 fire damage vs. 1d6 extra damage, since the heavy spiked shield is already 1d6 base damage.
In any case, it still seems like a small deal. It's a tiny amount of bonus damage for a 'weapon' that can't be anything other than offhand, only crits on a 20, and you're spending money to enhance the 'weapon' aspect of it instead of buffing its AC properties, which is why you have it in the first place. Not to mention the shield TWF tree can get pretty feat heavy.
I'm just repeating myself though, in the end its up to the individual DM.
I myself would not allow it.
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I would, and have, actually. It's feat intensive and gp expensive (the +5 bashing sheild is 36,000, +5 defending is 72,000), and like Karui Kage said, it's an average of 2.5 damage more than not stacking.
Anything that makes sword'n'board less rare is a good thing, in my book. Historically that was the norm, and florintine was hard to learn, and subsequently more rare. The damage output benefit of TWF in d20 games makes it waaaay more popular than sword/shield style.
The PRD description of a spiked shield does not make reference to the spikes being something you can enchant separately from the shield. It says the spikes turn the shield into a martial weapon, and that while the enhancement bonus to the shield does not improve shield bashes, the SPIKED SHIELD can be made into a magic weapon. So, you can't make a +5 Bashing Shield with +5 Defending spikes. If anything, it implies that while you can start adding offensive enchantments like flaming to your shield if it has spikes, you can't apply enhancement bonuses to attack and damage with it, and all of the various enchantments stack to determine the shield's cost.
That said, the description for armor spikes is still the same - the spikes themselves can be enchanted as weapons. So the danger is more with the +5 Fullplate with +5 Defending armor spikes. The best fix for the armor spikes is to have them work like the shield spikes do above - you're trading potential defensive abilities in order to make your armor/shield increasingly offensive, and the defending ability can't be used abusively since the enhancement bonuses never count toward the weapon aspect.
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I've built both types of Two-Weapon Fighters (Fighter classes). One a dwarven shield basher, the other a human short-sword dual-wielder. In the end, with bashing, spikes, all the various feats, the guy with the short swords still did a bit more damage and had a higher crit rate, while the dwarf had the higher armor and decent damage with his weapons. Though bashing with the shield gets less useful the higher up you go in levels. If you spend money to upgrade it more as a weapon then it can do more, but typically it's best to just get the +1 Bashing then upgrade it more on the 'defense' side of things, since that's what you have a shield for in the first place.
So at the highest end without further upgrades you get your smashy 2d6+1+half str shield. It's not bad, but really, it isn't great.
Armor spikes I'm not even sure I want to get into, they've always been kind of wonky. Shield spikes and bashing are easy, one upgrades the 'size' damage by 1, the other by 2. They stack. Wee. Armor spikes.. meh. Maybe I'll save that for another thread.
So I've got a question along these lines, though not directly. When I saw the new Shield Master feat I immediately thought that it would be fantastic to have a viable sword-and-board TWF fighter.
Then I realized the catch. Unless you want to deal with nasty penalties, you're stuck with a light shield up to level 10. At level 11 though, the Shield Master feat lets you disregard all those penalties which means you're going to want to switch to a heavy shield, to make the most of it. But what about all the resources you've already sunk into that light shield? You're left with limited options as far as I know:
* Keep it, and suck it up.
* Sell it for 1/2 price.
* Hope the DM drops a heavy equivilent in your lap.
So, I don't suppose anyone knows of a legal way to upgrade an existing (and presumably already magic) shield physically, from light to heavy?
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Not that I know of. Personally, I would just use the Heavy Shield, make it +1 Bashing, Spiked, and then just keep boosting the enhancement bonus to help with AC or add on other defensive abilities. -4/-4 is annoying at first, and remember, even after Shield Master it's still going to be -4 with your main hand, -0 to the offhand shield, but that's the price. Then you can also start using that enhancement bonus you've been buffing as part of its attack and damage too.
That's the other thing that keeps the shield bashing TWFing technique in check, that 2d6 heavy shield incurs a -4 to both your main weapon and it until +11 BAB when you can pick up that Shield Master feat, and even then the penalty still applies to your main. A light spiked bashing shield will do 1d8 with only the -2/-2 penalty, which is probably more acceptable for an 'offhand attack' to those that don't like spiked and bashing stacking.
Any how, as to your question, no, there's no way I know of to change a shield type from Light to Heavy without getting a new shield.
I'll have to throw up my level 15 example Fighters sometime. In the end, the shield guy has better AC, but less free feats and less overall damage. Opposite for the guy with two actual weapons. I think it works out very well, and Jason did a great job introducing these new shield feats.
So since 'defending' stacks with all other bonuses, how do you feel about people dropping money on +2 defending armor spikes to get additional cheap armor bonuses? eventually this must become cheaper than upping yoru nat armor amulet to +5, and it doesnt take a slot, and keeps existing equipment working longer.
I have a feeling my players are going to try this. >_>
I allow it for our S&B fighter.
The guy invested A LOT of feats on the build and is just a little more on a built mainly focused on control and defense.
Not only is not a big deal, but it make it slightly more rounded IME.
The only way to get bigger advantage of it would be use vital strike (wich benefits from high damage dice) but it means add more feats for an already feat intensive build.
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Yes. The character with a light spiked bashing shield in their off-hand gets to do 1d8 damage, higher then the 1d6 a normal two weapon fighter would have, this is true. So an average 1 damage more per hit, plus the cheaper enhancement upgrades.
This is offset by the fact that he had to use three feats to get there, so I consider the small upgrade in damage (along with the cheaper enhancement bonuses for his off hand) worth it. In my examples above, I had two players compare these. One was the dwarven fighter who took a lot of the shield feats and one TWF feat, the other just went pure TWF. So while the dwarf did a bit more damage with his shield and usually hit more often with it (he had a heavy shield) thanks to Shield Master, but hit less often with his main weapon due to the -4. The full TWFer, on the other hand, hit more often with all her weapons (only a -2 on every attack, and more attacks to use).
Of course, I'm also in the camp that says the shield cannot be used in both hands like this (reading that it can only be used as an off hand weapon), so take that as you will.
So since 'defending' stacks with all other bonuses, how do you feel about people dropping money on +2 defending armor spikes to get additional cheap armor bonuses? eventually this must become cheaper than upping yoru nat armor amulet to +5, and it doesnt take a slot, and keeps existing equipment working longer.
I have a feeling my players are going to try this. >_>
He has to be 'wielding' the spikes to get the Defender bonus. That means they are 'readied' as per a normal weapon, and thus TWF penalties are going to apply if he's spinning a Greatsword around. It's a cheap way to get Defender bonuses and have a backup weapon, but he'll still need to blow a feat on TWF.
And Defender bonuses don't stack with Defender bonuses, so dont' go down that road:)
The +5 Heavy Shield of bashing w +5 Defending Spikes is more a meme then a suggestion that they are enchanted seperately. By the rules, spikes become part of the shield. It's simply clearer to quote it this way and for people to realize you're adding +6 of Armor bonuses to +6 of Weapon Bonuses.
And, hey, don't forget the Augment Gem of Missile deflection! +5 AC vs Ranged attacks is a nice AC kicker (w the first one/rd automatically missing)!
==Aelryinth
Ikedoe, when you get Shield Mastery, you make the shield your main hand weapon and make your weapon a light weapon. Solves the problem of a heavy shield! (off-hand is now 'light').
==Aelryinth
I remember 3.5 FAQs agree with Aelrith, for what it's worth.
Moreover... I think Aelrinth is correct from the common sense standpoint.
Seems to me that, if you only hit someone with a shield, it's ludicrous to think you'd only get half your STR bonus and such with it. If Captain America pummels you to unconsciousness with his shield, he isn't using only half his STR score to do it.
Of course, making primary attacks with a shield while using a shortsword as off-hand attacks... that does seem odd, but not really so bad.
And, if we want to bring 3.5 stuff into the discussion, for 6,000 gold, I can get a one-handed weapon that does 2d6 damage, and all I give up is my bracers slot (Strongarm Bracers - MIC - and a large longsword).
So has this been resolved yet?
+1 Bashing Heavy Shield (1d4 => 1d6 => 1d8) 1d8+1 (avg 5.5)
+1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield (1d6 => 1d8 => 2d6) 2d6+1? (avg 8)
And what happens when you enchant the shield spikes with +1 Flaming?
Do you add +1d6 (fire) to the above?
Unsure about all this...uggh.
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So has this been resolved yet?
+1 Bashing Heavy Shield (1d4 => 1d6 => 1d8) 1d8+1 (avg 5.5)
+1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield (1d6 => 1d8 => 2d6) 2d6+1? (avg 8)And what happens when you enchant the shield spikes with +1 Flaming?
Do you add +1d6 (fire) to the above?
Unsure about all this...uggh.
You are doing a mistake.
"Bashing" doesn't make the shield the equivalent of a Huge weapon, even though I admit that the wording is weird on this one. If you want to understand how it really works, the 3.5 wording clearly specifies that the shield actually gains two category increases in damage, in the sense that for a heavy shield, 1d4 becomes 1d6, then 1d8. In the 3.5 SRD, it was even clearly explained that 1d3 from light shield became 1d6, and 1d4 from heavy shield became 1d8. I guess the PF description is a typo of this.Spikes then increase this once more by the same logic.
So :
Light shield : 1d3
Heavy shield : 1d4
Light shield, spiked : 1d3 -> 1d4
Heavy shield, spiked : 1d4 -> 1d6
Light bashing shield : 1d3-> 1d4 -> 1d6 + 1
Heavy bashing shield : 1d4 -> 1d6 -> 1d8 + 1
Light bashing shield, spiked : 1d3 -> 1d4 -> 1d6 + 1 -> 1d8 + 1
Heavy bashing shield, spiked : 1d4 -> 1d6 -> 1d8 + 1 -> 1d10 + 1
category increases to damage means you follow the size rules.
Thus, 1-8 increases to 2-12. Basically, dmg basically doubles every two size increases, with a little wonkiness in the d8/d10 area.
JJ up above clearly knows this, he calls the bashed spiked shield 2-12 dmg, same as a two handed weapon.
==Aelryinth
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category increases to damage means you follow the size rules.
Thus, 1-8 increases to 2-12. Basically, dmg basically doubles every two size increases, with a little wonkiness in the d8/d10 area.
JJ up above clearly knows this, he calls the bashed spiked shield 2-12 dmg, same as a two handed weapon.
==Aelryinth
Mmh... what?
Bashing
A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. (Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.)
Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, bull’s strength; Price +1 bonus.
Can't be clearer. The spikes then increase this once more.
So, 1d8/1d10. Not 1d4 -> 1d6 then 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 2d6.This is at least how we played it during 11 fighter levels, and we never had a problem. Not to account that 2d6 damage looks ridiculous when your shield is more powerful than your other weapon.
EDIT : Whoops, from reading James Jacob's post, the shield property actually makes the medium weapon hit like a Huge one. It just seems to correspond to a normal two-step increase. In this case, if you want to add spikes, follow the same logic and instead of adding one side category, add one damage step.
Spikes would finally only give +1 damage to the shield, and even if you enchant them, you will need at least a +1 enhancement on the spikes that will not stack with Bashing, so it's far from broken.
Go look up the size change tables.
In 4E, size change d8 to d10.
But in PF, d8 becomes 2-12. And it is emphatically referring to size categories, not 'the next higher die type.'
==Aelryinth
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Yes, I mistook the issues of spikes scalling with Bashing.
I had the same problem two years ago when building my character at level 1, and my previous conclusion was based after the idea that 2d6 would be way too much for a one-handed shield, even if wielded as a weapon. Increasing the damage step gave the same result, only more balanced at the end.
Light shield at 1d8 and heavy at 1d10 is good enough IMHO, especially since you would lose the first point of enhancement bonus from shield spikes.
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James mentioned it wasn’t the developers to allow shield spikes and bashing to increase damage by 3 sizes. All they have to do is say they provide the same bonus, so they don’t stack. Instead you just end up taking the better of the two.
Looking at keen/improved critical, lances/spirited charge, matching named bonuses to attacks and damage. There is a lot of rules comparison to back up a ruling that you can only use the better of the two improvements.
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heavy shield of bashing with shield spikes has always been 2d6 in my campaigns, and lo and behold, no one ever made a sword and board type warrior even with that "perk"...
mind you, you'll still need the double slice feat to even do something that looks remotely like "ok" damage; you also only crit on a 20... people in the Pathfinder Society that I've seen go sword and board are just doing it for the free bull rush via shield slam feat; damage is a joke even with that mighty 2d6
All of which is a reason not to worry about it.
1) You gots to spend craploads of money on the shield...armor AND weapon...to make it effective.
2) 2-12 with a 20/x2 crit range is meh.
3) and that penalty for your other weapon still blows.
Best use of it is for the free slam, and being able to stack Defender and Shield Mastery for a +5 Weapon, +5 Shield, and +5 Defender bonus all at the same time. Damage? meh, not a factor.
==Aelryinth
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All of which is a reason not to worry about it.
1) You gots to spend craploads of money on the shield...armor AND weapon...to make it effective.
2) 2-12 with a 20/x2 crit range is meh.
3) and that penalty for your other weapon still blows.
Best use of it is for the free slam, and being able to stack Defender and Shield Mastery for a +5 Weapon, +5 Shield, and +5 Defender bonus all at the same time. Damage? meh, not a factor.
==Aelryinth
... wasn't it specified by James Jacob at the time that the "enhancement" bonus from the shield is actually the BASE shield bonus, thus making a light shield a +1 weapon, and a heavy shield a +2 weapon, not stacking with Shield focus ?
I read there was an errata, though I don't know what was the final version, and the only words I have on the subjects are from Paizo, saying you only use the base shield bonus and not the magical enhancement or feat increase.|
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Best use of it is for the free slam, and being able to stack Defender and Shield Mastery for a +5 Weapon, +5 Shield, and +5 Defender bonus all at the same time. Damage? meh, not a factor.
==Aelryinth
hmmm... not sure shield master lets you turn a +5 shield into a "shield +5 of defending"
--> Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made
with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus.
...this sounds purely oriented to attacks and damage rolls
the bashing property makes the shield into a +1 weapon... so a bashing +5 shield of defending can grant you at best a +1 to AC... enchant the shield both as a +5 weapon and a +5 shield and now you got something really nasty... (+10 to AC!!!!, and you still benefit from +5 damage and +5 to hit...)
wow, I now understand what you meant... that's what you meant right? :P
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Best use of it is for the free slam, and being able to stack Defender and Shield Mastery for a +5 Weapon, +5 Shield, and +5 Defender bonus all at the same time. Damage? meh, not a factor.
==Aelryinth
hmmm... not sure shield master lets you turn a +5 shield into a "shield +5 of defending"
--> Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made
with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus....this sounds purely oriented to attacks and damage rolls
the bashing property makes the shield into a +1 weapon... so a bashing +5 shield of defending can grant you at best a +1 to AC... enchant the shield both as a +5 weapon and a +5 shield and now you got something really nasty... (+10 to AC!!!!, and you still benefit from +5 damage and +5 to hit...)
wow, I now understand what you meant... that's what you meant right? :P
If Shield Master has been errata-ed like I think, a +5 Shield with +1 Defending spikes would effectively be a +5 Shield, +5 Defending weapon with Shield Master. Thus, the possible +10 to AC (not counting base shield bonus and eventual Shield focus).
Am I right ? This concerns my character and could potentially make my build really nasty. My s&b fighter needs all the help he can find after 10 levels doing at best 1d8+13 damage/attack.|
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nah, to make it work I think you need defending shield spikes +5 (cost like a +6 weapon) that is also enchanted like a +5 shield
( 72,000 + 25,000 )
Huh ? Shield Master : "Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus."
Why should I buy +5 defending spikes ? If you take +1 defending spikes and Shield Master with a +5 shield, you lose the +1 enhancement but gain the equivalent of a real +5 enhancement weapon. Defending then stacks with it since this isn't the same kind of bonus.Nothing says by RAW that you then can't use this shield like a +5 defending weapon.
Shield Master works off the Shield Armor Enhancement bonus.
Defending Spikes work off the independent Shield Weapon Enhancement bonus.
With Shield Master, it's Armor bonus becomes a Weapon bonus...regardless of what the weapon bonus is.
Defending has no ability to alter a shields armor bonus.
You have to enchant it as a weapon seperately for Defender to work. But once you have Shield Master, you can then swap out the weapon enhancment bonus for Defender, while Shield Master uses the Armor Bonus to fill in for it completely seperately.
Standard Uber Shield: +5 Bashing Shield, Spiked, +5 Defender.
As a Heavy Shield = +13 AC, +5 Weapon w no penalties, attack and keep AC (w Shield Mastery).
That's the advantage of a Sword and Board fighter. Granted, you're not going to have a shield like this until level 15 unless you take Ancestral Relic or make it yourself. But it's effectively the same cost as +10 Shield.
i would also like to point out that the proper weapon to use here is the Sun sword or an equivalent that lets you use your primary weapon as a light weapon.
===Aelryinth