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If I have the Double Slice feat, which gives me my full Strength bonus with my off-hand weapon, do I still only get half the damage bonus on my off-hand weapon when I use Power Atatck?
If I have the Double Slice feat, which gives me my full Strength bonus with my off-hand weapon, do I still only get half the damage bonus on my off-hand weapon when I use Power Atatck?
The two feats appear to be mutually exclusive.
Double Slice only refers to the Str that's added to your off-hand attack.
Power-attack only refers to the extra damage gained for your off-hand attack.
The reason for this is so the TWF only gains as much damage as someone who is wielding a 2-hander. 1.5x
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Double Slice has no effect on how Power Attack works, although you can still use both feats.
Since Two Weapon Fighting and Power Attack both apply penalties to hit, in my opinion, Power Attack isn't a good fit for a two weapon fighting character.
If I have the Double Slice feat, which gives me my full Strength bonus with my off-hand weapon, do I still only get half the damage bonus on my off-hand weapon when I use Power Atatck?
Yes. There is nothing in Double Slice that changes the effect of Power Attack.
It does seem a little odd that Double Slice allows you to use your full strength on the second attack, but Power Attack doesn't. That is, however, how the rules are written.
Given the limited effect of Power Attack in the PF Ruleset, a house rule that allowed for full Power Attack effect on the off-hand attack when combined with Double Slice would not be game breaking. We are, after all, talking about a grand total of 1 extra hit point of damage per attack per 4 levels. It would be a house rule, however.
Given the limited effect of Power Attack in the PF Ruleset, a house rule that allowed for full Power Attack effect on the off-hand attack when combined with Double Slice would not be game breaking. We are, after all, talking about a grand total of 1 extra hit point of damage per attack per 4 levels. It would be a house rule, however.
That was pretty much my way of thinking. So for my Con adventure. the axe-wielding halfling ranger/barbarian will get his power attack on his tiny, little handaxe.
Thanks, guys!
*** Thread Necromancy ***
I ressurected this thread because i wanted to know if the answer given to this thread's OP is correct and/or up to date (it's a thread from 2009 after all).
Power Attack's bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon.
Double Slice Allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.
Power Attack is not dependent on whether you get full or partial strength bonus for an odd-hand attack. Every off-hand (or secondary natural) attack only gains 50% PA bonus damage.
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hmmm grick brings up a question... does double slice apply to 2ndary natural attacks?
No. Double Slice works with off-hand weapons only. It has no effect on natural weapons - these are treated as 'primary' or 'secondary' but never 'off-hand'.
Well, unless you TWF with natural weapons. But then you have to obey all the usual rules of TWF, and Double Slice still doesn't affect any remaining natural weapon attacks that you're taking as secondary attacks.
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There's no need for an official answer because, as has been stated numerous times in this thread, the two are written to be mutually exclusive. There is nothing in Double Slice that states anything about giving you extra damage from Power Attack, just Strength, nor is there anything implying that it should/is meant to.
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There's no need for an official answer because, as has been stated numerous times in this thread, the two are written to be mutually exclusive. There is nothing in Double Slice that states anything about giving you extra damage from Power Attack, just Strength, nor is there anything implying that it should/is meant to.
"Mutually Exclusive" is the wrong phrase. That would mean you couldn't use them both at the same time. A better description would be "entirely unrelated".
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Given the limited effect of Power Attack in the PF Ruleset, a house rule that allowed for full Power Attack effect on the off-hand attack when combined with Double Slice would not be game breaking. We are, after all, talking about a grand total of 1 extra hit point of damage per attack per 4 levels. It would be a house rule, however.
Picking up Arcane Strike, if available, would be more effective.
Given the limited effect of Power Attack in the PF Ruleset, a house rule that allowed for full Power Attack effect on the off-hand attack when combined with Double Slice would not be game breaking. We are, after all, talking about a grand total of 1 extra hit point of damage per attack per 4 levels. It would be a house rule, however.Picking up Arcane Strike, if available, would be more effective.
If you are taking arcane strike in place of PA, you are also losing the +2 (or more) damage on all main hand attacks.
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If you are taking arcane strike in place of PA, you are also losing the +2 (or more) damage on all main hand attacks.Given the limited effect of Power Attack in the PF Ruleset, a house rule that allowed for full Power Attack effect on the off-hand attack when combined with Double Slice would not be game breaking. We are, after all, talking about a grand total of 1 extra hit point of damage per attack per 4 levels. It would be a house rule, however.Picking up Arcane Strike, if available, would be more effective.
I meant in place of house ruling a feat to increase the off-hand damage.
SO I guess that you can double slice and call that you are only power attacking with the primary weapon and not the secondary.
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This thread has a very strong aura of necromancy...
Seriously though, you have to Power Attack w/all or nothing. You can't say that only your primary attacks work.
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn.Also, bit of trivia, if you have Monk levels you do add full PA and Str to TWF, even if you give up flurry. Because under Unarmed Strike it states a Monk's Unarmed Strike is never off-hand.
There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.
@Night_Shade - I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or you're just mistaken, but as far as I know you can't Power Attack with one hand but not the other.
hehehe, just wanted to be a pain :-)
Yes. The two feats don't interact at all.
I do want to mention, because it is related and I feel it is somewhat worth mentioning, is that the monk's unarmed strike actually skips a lot of this problem due to its language:
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Normally, this is viewed as merely giving you free double slice. But because the language of this ability directly removes offhand as a state that you attacks can even be in, it changes the situation with power attack. So, if you were, lets say a ranger, and dipped into monk (lets say MoMS, since it removes flurry), then you could get full strength and power attack damage on each hit. A rather specific kind of build, but it can and has been done.
Another interesting note is that this language is part of the unarmed strike ability itself, and not part of the flurry of blows ability (which also has its own 'no offhand attack' language....but it also lets you flurry with 2 handed weapons, which has been confirmed as still giving you 1.5x bonuses).
Five years?!?
Seriously, Double Slice, and Power Attack, function completely independent of each other.
This is one of the really easy ones.
Why is this still alive?
Yeah. Seriously.
There's no need for an official answer because, as has been stated numerous times in this thread, the two are written to be mutually exclusive. There is nothing in Double Slice that states anything about giving you extra damage from Power Attack, just Strength, nor is there anything implying that it should/is meant to.
Actually, Power Attack kind of implies that STR has something to do with it when it says that "The Power Attack bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls." That means some monster will do 1.5x PA damage on a Bite (Sharks) while others will do only 1x PA damage (Hydras), not to mention Bites as secondary attacks with 0.5x PA damage. The Hydras and the Sharks Bite attacks show how STR influences PA, at least for natural attacks.
Another indication of how Double Slice could affect PA is that they do influence one another on Hero's Lab, but that could just be a error too.
But what I do know is that, according to RAW, you could use a Small Greatsword (Two-Handed Weapon) in your off-hand. This way, if you used Double Slice and Power Attack, you would get the full STR damage from Double Slice AND you would at the same time be making an attack with a Two-Handed Weapon (1.5x PA damage) as an Off-hand attack (0.5x PA damage).
This shows that the wording for Power Attack contradicts itself, the text leaves it unclear which PA damage should be used in such situations, therefore RAW is WRONG. This text NEEDS a correction.
You can't have Power Attack giving a Monk with a Two-Handed Weapon 1.5x PA damage based on the weapon and denying a Ranger the same bonus because he used it in an off-hand.
There's two ways the Power Attack text could be, imo:
#1 - Based on the Handling:
If the attack is with both hands, 1.5x PA damage.
If the attack is with the main hand, 1x PA damage.
If the attack is with the off-hand, 0.5x PA damange.
And for Natural attacks, it's as it was:
If it's a primary attack with 1.5x STR, 1.5x PA damange.
If it's a primary attack with 1x STR, 1x PA damage.
If it's a secondary attack, 0.5x STR damage
#2 - Based on the STR bonus:
If the attack does 1.5x STR, 1.5x PA damage.
If the attack does 1x STR, 1x PA damage.
If the attack does 0.5x STR, 0.5x PA damage.
I would use option #2, based on the STR bonus. To me it's RAI.
Finaly, if they could rewrite the Power Attack text, I would also hope they claryfied if you can choose to only use a -1 penalty to attack with Power Attack, even if you already has BAB +20 and could use a -4 penalty if you wanted to. My DM insists that you can't choose the amount of bonus and penalties anymore, that now it's a fixed bonus based on your current BAB.
It is not based on the strength bonus. It is based on the handling. You can argue all you want, but 99% of us get it. Many rules can be twisted if someone tries hard enough. That is on the reader.
As for the monk and ranger the monk can flurry with a monk weapon and flurry is not TWF'ing, but it is similar. That is why the monk can use a two handed weapon and a ranger can't do it with twf'ing. It is due to a monk class ability.
Yes, the penalty and bonus is fixed now. It is not like it was in 3.5. Many people did not like it, but it is what it is.
If herolab has that error I will report it later on once I verify it.
For natural attacks str does not affect PA. IF the monster has ONE attack it gets x1.5 str bonus, and x3 for power attack bonus. If the monster has more than one primary attack it gets x1 str bonus and x2 for PA. Some monsters are an exception but those are just that exceptions.
Secondary attacks in PF only do x0.5 str bonus and x1 PA.
Bites are primary attacks in PF, unless used in conjunction with manufactured weapons or unless the monster has a rules exception.
edit: The str is a factor for natural attacks, but the str is determined by other factors, and is a by product of those factors. Weapons(manufactured) work on handling instead.
My main point is that the Power Attack text is dubious. In the game, the term "Two-Handed Weapon" is used for both:
1- The way the weapon was designed to use (a Greatsword, a Two-Handed Weapon made for medium creatures, was designed to be used in two hands).
2- The way a certain weapon should be used by a creature of a given size (a Longsword, a One-handed Weapon made for medium creatures, should be used in two hands by small size creatures). To small creatures the Longsword is a Two-Handed Weapon.
Since in Power Attack they say "if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon", it's impossible to say for sure which one they ment, by RAW. Had they written "if you are making an attack with a weapon in two hands" like they did when they wrote "a one handed weapon using two hands", this matter would be 100% clear.
I know, I'm beeing picky with the words, but since so many here like to use RAW as a God given text, in a matter almost zombie like, I feel I have the right to do the same on my point's defense.
Even though we all have a good idea of what the Power Attack rules ment, "a good idea" is still a subjective term, and we can't say if something is right or wrong based on what we think, even if we are 99% sure. Rules must be 100% clear to be right. If the rules are not clear enough and give room for doubt, then they are neither right nor wrong, and that is the case of Power Attack.
In case I'm not beeing clear, I'll ask you this: In Power Attack, what does "if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon" mean? Does it mean a weapon designed to be used in two hands or does it mean any weapon that should be used in two hands by you? How can I tell for sure?
It is not based on the strength bonus. It is based on the handling.
I honestly don't see how you can be sure about this. Primary attacks Power Attack bonus is based on STR. Handling and STR bonus basically walk side by side. You could say the basic rule is:
Two Hands = 1.5x STR = 1.5x Power Attack
Main Hand = 1x STR = 1x Power Attack
Off-Hand = 0.5x STR = 0.5x Power Attack
also,
Primary Attack + 1.5x STR = 1.5x Power Attack
Primary Attack + 1x STR = 1x Power Attack
Secondary Attack = 0.5x STR = 0.5x Power Attack
It all fits. It all makes sense.
The Monk is an exception to this, where all his flurry attacks are considered "Main hand".
Double Slice is basically the same exception as the monk's flurry. As such it's fairly reasonable to think that they would work the same way with Power Attack. (It's also weird to think that the Monk does Two-weapon-fighting better than the Ranger or Fighter).
In Flurry of Blows it says that if the monk flurries with a two handed monk weapon (Sansetsukon) it only adds full STR bonus to damage. To me, what they tried to say here is that, even if the monk uses a two-handed weapon durring flurry, it should also work as a main hand weapon in all ways.
As such, had the Power Attack text be better written based on the STR bonus (almost the same thing as handling), the Monk's two-handed weapon STR bonus damage would also be considered equal to a main hand attack, as I think it was intended. But, with the present text, I think monks got an unintended bonus, making it better for them to do "two-weapon-fighting" with a two handed weapon...
Hell, the only difference between a main hand attack and an off-hand attack is the STR bonus to damage. If Double slice effectively makes your off-hand attack as good as your main hand attack, is it so unreasonable to think that they would add the same Power Attack bonus to damage as well?
Due to all this evidence and reasoning, I belive Power Attack was intended to be based on the STR bonus to damage (almost the same result as handling), but they just did a poor job with the words.
But, the way the text is written today, I at least agree that, by RAW, off-hand attacks only do 0.5x PA damage, even with Double Slice (with the exception of using a two handed weapon in your off hand, where, by RAW, the Power Attack bonus is unclear).
Since RAW is very "fishy", and there's enough evidence to support that RAI could be either way, I just ask that you guys don't be so harsh, saying "What you think doesn't matter. RAW is RAW, so NO."
In this matter, I think the way to go is:
By RAW, no, not really, but we strongly suggest that you use RAI as you see it, since the matter is very dubious.
I apologize for the big text.
I know, I'm beeing picky with the words, but since so many here like to use RAW as a God given text, in a matter almost zombie like, I feel I have the right to do the same on my point's defense.
You absolutely do have that right, but please understand that a lot of people on these boards play in organized play campaigns where we can't change the rules. "Zombie-like" adherence to RAW is more like "constrained by the context of how we play".
Also note that the question was not "SHOULD Power Attack get the full bonus on the off hand when used in conjunction with Double Slice?" The question was "(Within the rules as currently written and the most recent set of FAQs,) DOES Power Attack get the full bonus on the off hand when used in conjunction with Double Slice?" For this question, "it makes sense" does not count unless there is a contradiction or lack of clarity.
Any type of flurry is irrelevant. Double Slice only applies when you are attacking with two weapons under the combat rules for two weapon fighting.
Double Slice says "Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon."
It does not say "treat your off hand weapon as if it were your primary hand" or "negate any penalties associated with using a weapon in your off hand". Like people said earlier, these two feats have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
So the discussion has to focus completely on the text of Power Attack.
The current text for Power Attack from the PRD is
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
There's no ambiguity there. It doesn't say anything about "if your str bonus is halved". It says "if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon." When using two weapon fighting, you are using an off-hand weapon, regardless of what that weapon is.
Your arguments do bring up an interesting question:
If you have some trick that lets you use a two-handed weapon in one hand without changing the category of the weapon, you could potentially use that weapon in your off hand. In that case, how would you apply the Power Attack bonus?
I think you'd need to check each of those tricks individually, but the best you could get by RAW is take 1.5 times the PA bonus (for using a two handed weapon) and then divide that by 2 (for using it in your off hand). You won't see any difference until your PA mods are -2/+4, and you'd get +3 (4*1.5/2)on your off-hand instead of +2 (4/2).
It's a corner case, and the penalties for using that weapon in your off hand would b monstrous, but that's how I would rule it.
Final note:
My two weapon fighters would LOVE for Power Attack or Piranha Strike to work the way you're arguing. I desperately want them to work that way, and I agree that it does make sense. Unfortunately, they just don't unless you house rule it.
And you are always free to house rule it that way, but some of us can't do that.
My main point is that the Power Attack text is dubious. In the game, the term "Two-Handed Weapon" is used for both:
1- The way the weapon was designed to use (a Greatsword, a Two-Handed Weapon made for medium creatures, was designed to be used in two hands).
2- The way a certain weapon should be used by a creature of a given size (a Longsword, a One-handed Weapon made for medium creatures, should be used in two hands by small size creatures). To small creatures the Longsword is a Two-Handed Weapon.
Bzzt!! Error in proof at step 2.
These aren't two separate uses of the term. They are the same use of the term with the additional rule that (one-step) oversized weapons are moved up one category.
The base rule is not that a medium greatsword is two-handed. The rule is that a greatsword is two-handed relative to a same-size creature. A medium longsword isn't one-handed. Any longsword is one-handed relative to a same-size creature.
Similarly, a longsword is two-handed to a (one-step) undersized creature and a greatsword is unusably large for a (one-step) undersized creature.
Yeah. Seriously.
Seriously? You necro'ed a thread to complain about it being necro'ed?
My main point is that the Power Attack text is dubious. In the game, the term "Two-Handed Weapon" is used for both:
1- The way the weapon was designed to use (a Greatsword, a Two-Handed Weapon made for medium creatures, was designed to be used in two hands).
2- The way a certain weapon should be used by a creature of a given size (a Longsword, a One-handed Weapon made for medium creatures, should be used in two hands by small size creatures). To small creatures the Longsword is a Two-Handed Weapon.
Bzzt!! Error in proof at step 2.
These aren't two separate uses of the term. They are the same use of the term with the additional rule that (one-step) oversized weapons are moved up one category.
The base rule is not that a medium greatsword is two-handed. The rule is that a greatsword is two-handed relative to a same-size creature. A medium longsword isn't one-handed. Any longsword is one-handed relative to a same-size creature.
Similarly, a longsword is two-handed to a (one-step) undersized creature and a greatsword is unusably large for a (one-step) undersized creature.
Yeah. Seriously.Seriously? You necro'ed a thread to complain about it being necro'ed?
The FAQ on using a lance one handed disagrees with you. A lance is always a 2-handed weapon, even if wielding it 1-handed while mounted; and it still gets the PA bonus of a 2-handed weapon.
I think you'd need to check each of those tricks individually, but the best you could get by RAW is take 1.5 times the PA bonus (for using a two handed weapon) and then divide that by 2 (for using it in your off hand). You won't see any difference until your PA mods are -2/+4, and you'd get +3 (4*1.5/2)on your off-hand instead of +2 (4/2).
Indeed, must be tough playing in a strickt RAW, by the book, organized campaign where the only way to compute this is to apply both modifiers at once (which to me sounds like an error and that's why I was pushing for that power attack official text rewrite), but I would be careful if I were you, if anyone uses that attack, it may cause a black hole in the matrix.
You're right about flurry, you don't need it to make an idependent "off-hand" attack with the monk, I made a confusion there. Howerver, has anyone ever seen a monk make an "off-hand" attack other than in a flurry?
When I sais "Zombie like" I ment blind attatchment to RAW, and complete disregard for RAI, didn't mean to disrespect anyone. Believe me, I too know that trying to do anything against RAW is a nightmare in any campaign and the closer you can stick to RAW, the better, but most os us probably play with a small group of friends and I like to encourage these groups think, talk things over and don't be afraid to do what They think the RAI is.
I don't expect to change how Double Slice works here, by RAW, I know it won't affect Power Attack. Indeed, the only thing I have discuss here is about the possible intepretation breach in the Power Attack text.
Bzzt!! Error in proof at step 2.
These aren't two separate uses of the term. They are the same use of the term with the additional rule that (one-step) oversized weapons are moved up one category.
The base rule is not that a medium greatsword is two-handed. The rule is that a greatsword is two-handed relative to a same-size creature. A medium longsword isn't one-handed. Any longsword is one-handed relative to a same-size creature.
I don't think so. By RAW, the term "Two-Handed Weapon" is a definition of weapon's category, not just because of their size but because these weapons were designed to be used with two hands, so even if a larger creature uses them with one hand it will have attack penalties, because that weapon was not designed to be uses that way efectivelly. (A Scythe is a Two-Handed Weapon)(corerulebook p.141)
By RAW, the term "Two-Handed-Weapon" is also used to say that a certain weapon (or improvised weapon) is a Two-Handed weapon in relation to another creature. A Huge knife is a one handed weapon, designed for huge creatures, but to a medium creature it's a Two-Handed Weapon.(corerulebook p.144)
In the Power Attack text, it just says "if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon". It doesn't differentiates between a Two-Handed Weapon to you or to some other sized creature. So, since the text is poor, by RAW, you could use a small Greatsword in your off-hand and if you made an attack with Power Atack with it, it would create a conflict about which modifier to use, x0.5 or x1.5.
Guys, I KNOW that the right answer is x0.5, that's not what this is about. It's about the fact that the Power Attack text is not 100% clear and could be better. It's something we can say to paizo "Hey, Paizo! There's a problem with the text here, please fix it."
AND, if they happen to fix it by saying the Power Attack bonus modifier is determined by the attacks STR modifier (x1.5, x1, x0.5), THEN Double Slice would also affect Power Attack.
That's all.