Regeneration seems to have been nerfed rather hard according to the Bestiary, but I'm a little unclear about how it works. It seems that any hit with the required material negates regeneration for an entire round. Just Acid splash the troll and it's a hackfest. I can understand that regeneration is a bit annoying, but now it seems a little weak.
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Regeneration seems to have been nerfed rather hard according to the Bestiary, but I'm a little unclear about how it works. It seems that any hit with the required material negates regeneration for an entire round. Just Acid splash the troll and it's a hackfest. I can understand that regeneration is a bit annoying, but now it seems a little weak.
It seems like the regeneration only stops for one round. Someone had better have a massive amount of acid or this is only going to give a momentary respite before wounds start healing up again.
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It's not that much of a problem when cantrips like acid splash can be used at will.
Better hope there's a wizard around then. Or that the wizard can get that spell off without his concentration being broken. Or that there isn't more than one regenerating creature around. Or that a lone regenerating creature isn't with an ally who can keep that spellcaster busy. See how easily this isn't "nerfed"?
It's not that much of a problem when cantrips like acid splash can be used at will.Better hope there's a wizard around then. Or that the wizard can get that spell off without his concentration being broken. Or that there isn't more than one regenerating creature around. Or that a lone regenerating creature isn't with an ally who can keep that spellcaster busy. See how easily this isn't "nerfed"?
Well, if I understand correctly it's enough to whack it with a torch. I find your reasoning specious. I'm not saying it's a bad change but regeneration is definitely weaker. On the other hand, it makes it much easier to dispose of regenerating creatures, which might be a good thing.
What happens, exactly when a regenerating creature is dealt more damage than his HP, but hasn't been hit with his fire or acid? Does he fall unconscious? Can he take damage all the way down to his -Con. Modifier? And is the rest of the damage ignored after that?
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Regeneration seems to have been nerfed rather hard according to the Bestiary, but I'm a little unclear about how it works. It seems that any hit with the required material negates regeneration for an entire round. Just Acid splash the troll and it's a hackfest. I can understand that regeneration is a bit annoying, but now it seems a little weak.
In some ways it's been weakened, in some ways it's been strengthened. Regenerative creatures can no longer die to starvation, Con damage or similar. Basically, it's more of an on/off switch than before. Either you have what is needed to win and then it's easy or you don't and then it's hard.
What happens, exactly when a regenerating creature is dealt more damage than his HP, but hasn't been hit with his fire or acid? Does he fall unconscious? Can he take damage all the way down to his -Con. Modifier? And is the rest of the damage ignored after that?
Assuming no special exception for the creature in question:
At 0 hp they're disabled. At negative hp they're unconscious. They can take damage down to -anything, really, because they just don't die at -Con and that's the only limit. So you can put a creature with regen 1 to -100000 hp, and after 100001 rounds they'll be awake and well again.EDIT: Note that while regeneration is active, the creature is literally immortal and cannot die from anything. The only way to kill a creature with regeneration, apart from attacking it with it's weakness, is somehow removing it's regeneration. This can be done with polymorph effects, I believe, through polymorphing it into something that doesn't have a constitution score.
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Holy Gygax's Ghost
[Puts his arms up, puts on "Thriller", starts choreographed shambling]
If we're doing a thread this old, we're doing it RIGHT.
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~It's close to midnight and something evil's lurking in the dark~
~Under the moonlight you see a sight that almost stops your heart~
~You try to scream but terror takes the sound before you make it~
~You start to freeze as horror looks you right between the eyes,~
~You're paralyzed~
Except my Nycar familiar is immune to being paralyzed.
But what happens when he is below -Con? He has Regeneration 1 (Cold Iron), Ferocity, and the Diehard feat. Is he awake and does he heal every round or does his bleeding tie with Regeneration?
I fought with a GM on this and it ended with the Nycar surviving but unconscious.
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Regeneration seems to have been nerfed rather hard according to the Bestiary, but I'm a little unclear about how it works. It seems that any hit with the required material negates regeneration for an entire round. Just Acid splash the troll and it's a hackfest. I can understand that regeneration is a bit annoying, but now it seems a little weak.In some ways it's been weakened, in some ways it's been strengthened. Regenerative creatures can no longer die to starvation, Con damage or similar. Basically, it's more of an on/off switch than before. Either you have what is needed to win and then it's easy or you don't and then it's hard.
What happens, exactly when a regenerating creature is dealt more damage than his HP, but hasn't been hit with his fire or acid? Does he fall unconscious? Can he take damage all the way down to his -Con. Modifier? And is the rest of the damage ignored after that?Assuming no special exception for the creature in question:
At 0 hp they're disabled. At negative hp they're unconscious. They can take damage down to -anything, really, because they just don't die at -Con and that's the only limit. So you can put a creature with regen 1 to -100000 hp, and after 100001 rounds they'll be awake and well again.EDIT: Note that while regeneration is active, the creature is literally immortal and cannot die from anything. The only way to kill a creature with regeneration, apart from attacking it with it's weakness, is somehow removing it's regeneration. This can be done with polymorph effects, I believe, through polymorphing it into something that doesn't have a constitution score.
Hmmm so would that mean a Mythic Troll with fire/acid resistance put on it would be virtually unkillable since they can only be killled by a coup de gras or critical with an artifact but they just keep dropping into negative points.
zanbato13, look at it individually:
1) At negative numbers someone with Ferocity is conscious in the negatives.
2) At -con you die.
3) Having active regeneration removes limitation #2.
Result: At negative numbers someone with Ferocity is conscious until they die and if you have Regeneration you are not dying anytime soon.
Good luck fighting that creature. I hope you have the means to stop it from regenerating. Frankly, I would opt for grapple/pin to eliminate that creature.
Sidenote: Ferocity (and other abilities like it) do not stop you from knocking a creature unconscious with non-lethal damage (but this is often considered to be a rules oversight).
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So you can put a creature with regen 1 to -100000 hp, and after 100001 rounds they'll be awake and well again.
That's almost a week, for anyone curious.
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Ya, but lets be honest, how long would it take to reduce someone to -100,000 HP?
With 100 DPR, it would take 100 minutes.
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zanbato13, look at it individually:
1) At negative numbers someone with Ferocity is conscious in the negatives.
2) At -con you die.
3) Having active regeneration removes limitation #2.
Result: At negative numbers someone with Ferocity is conscious until they die and if you have Regeneration you are not dying anytime soon.
Good luck fighting that creature. I hope you have the means to stop it from regenerating. Frankly, I would opt for grapple/pin to eliminate that creature.
Sidenote: Ferocity (and other abilities like it) do not stop you from knocking a creature unconscious with non-lethal damage (but this is often considered to be a rules oversight).
That is one tough CR 1/3 tiny dragon and familiar.
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I mean, it might be a rules oversight, but it makes sense that you could still knock something unconscious by hitting it in the head enough times (even if it's not "dying").
Holy cow this thread is old.
So anyone ever faced this a Regenerating Ferocious Monster of Dhoom?
It's my witch's familiar. I keep it on the front line and scaring the unintelligent Huge monsters when it charges forward.
Is there any source, ruling, or FAQ for the Regeneration+Ferocity always being conscious even at something like -1 mil?
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*Pours acid on thread*
Damn. Didn't work.
This is the thread that never dies
Yes, it goes on and on my friend
Some people started posting in it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue posting in it forever just because . . .
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Son, with thread necromancy this potent, you'll be needing a Knowledge (Religion) check.Give me a Knowledge (Arcana) check.*Pours acid on thread*
Damn. Didn't work.
Much like Dead Cthulhu this topic was dreaming until the time was right. San check.
If you regenerate, will you die with a failed check in a coup the grace?
It doesn't look like it. Failed save against coup de grace (probably) just reduces you to negative CON hit points if you're above that. This does nothing to disable regeneration.
You can saw a troll in half down the middle, and it will just start regenerating from one of the halves.
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced "coo day grahs") to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.
Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.
A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.
Format: regeneration 5 (fire, acid); Location: hp.
A coup de grace will not kill you if you have regeneration active, as regeneration specifically states you cannot die while Regeneration is active. However while you also cannot starve to death (or suffocate) that doesn't mean it cannot render you unconscious.
There are a couple of threads on this topic from back in beta when they were originally considering what to do with regenerate, and a few others where the developers (or maybe James Jacobs) chimed in about the interaction between regeneration and diehard/ferocious, iirc.
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Way it was explained to me, re: energy damage, was it was like the Hydra (who...has...fast healing...)
You chop the head off. You 'sear in' the damage with the appropriate energy type. Burning the stump kinda.
It does get a bit goofy.
Barbarian: Rar! Troll! *hits for 120+ hp*
Mage: I'm contributing! *acid splashes for 1*
Troll: *sees his vaunted regeneration bolloxed up acid damage, and has to keep the 120 as genuine lethal damage.*
Hi!
The text says: "Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally."
Therefore the killing method of a regenerating creature is:
Slash it under deadline HP, cause damage form onto it which stops its regeneration (fire or acid vs. troll, good vs. devil, etc.) and coup de grace it on the next round.
IF it's already below 'dead' hp, why do you need the coup de grace? As soon as the fire damage is done, and regen is turned off, it would die, as it still has hp < -CON. Once dead, there is no regeneration, as there is no 'creature', just a smelly fleshy object.
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IF it's already below 'dead' hp, why do you need the coup de grace? As soon as the fire damage is done, and regen is turned off, it would die, as it still has hp < -CON. Once dead, there is no regeneration, as there is no 'creature', just a smelly fleshy object.Hi!
The text says: "Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally."
Therefore the killing method of a regenerating creature is:
Slash it under deadline HP, cause damage form onto it which stops its regeneration (fire or acid vs. troll, good vs. devil, etc.) and coup de grace it on the next round.
Ack! Thread regeneration!
The rationale is this:
People interpret some damage as real and not, based on an older understanding of regeneration. In the old 3.5 regen, damage that didn't qualify as bypassing the regeneration type, became subduel damage.
This meant that your regenerator carried two separate sets of hp damage, a lethal and non-lethal one and when they hit 0 total they fell on the ground. So people got into the habit of c-d-ging their target to make sure they were down with the lethal sort and wouldn't stand up a few minutes later with say 10 lethal damage and 78 sub damage (that got healed by regen).
Per the Pathfinder rules, as I see them, you're right. Shut down regeneration equals dead target. Probably to simplify book keeping.
To remind folks, since I had to check it myself..
Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.
Hilariously, this means if you're fighting a troll, having a pal just whallop him with a torch (for 1 fire damage), will shut down his regen and let you kill him normally.
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Ya, but lets be honest, how long would it take to reduce someone to -100,000 HP?With 100 DPR, it would take 100 minutes.
Actually, after 100 minutes it'd be at -99,000 after regen. so you'd either need 100 minutes of 101 dpr, or 101 minutes, 6 seconds of 100 DPR.
Assuming the previous hypothetical regen 1.
Hilariously, this means if you're fighting a troll, having a pal just whallop him with a torch (for 1 fire damage), will shut down his regen and let you kill him normally.
The worse thing about the current interpretations of regeneration, is that you can beat that troll repeatedly with an earthbreaker until it's a literal puddle or organic material, and the soul will be just hanging out in there, and then, eventually, it'll just grow back into the same troll again.. but it you drop a match into that puddle, that soul's like "Oh noes!! I'm outta here!"
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Hilariously, this means if you're fighting a troll, having a pal just whallop him with a torch (for 1 fire damage), will shut down his regen and let you kill him normally.The worse thing about the current interpretations of regeneration, is that you can beat that troll repeatedly with an earthbreaker until it's a literal puddle or organic material, and the soul will be just hanging out in there, and then, eventually, it'll just grow back into the same troll again.. but it you drop a match into that puddle, that soul's like "Oh noes!! I'm outta here!"
Yeah, its ridiculous. It likely grew out of an attempt to simplify the crazily overcomplicated 3.5 answer (subdual damage, real damage, etc etc). Although I like the 3.5 method better as it makes regenerators a real pest as opposed to just another monster. Even a party who could effortlessly destroy trolls in 3.5 had to go through effort to make sure the bastards didn't just get back up again an hour after they passed through.
Personally, I prefer the idea of having to 'seal in the flavor' by doing the damage after the fact as opposed to it just 'shutting off' regen. But, that's not how it works and it doesn't come up enough that I think its worth fiddling with.
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*regenerated*
We're less than three years from this thread's 10-year anniversary. We should have a celebration then.
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So starting character around level 6, with a cracked pearly white ioun stone and wayfinder (total cost 3900GP), who is a half-orc with Endurance, Diehard and Deathless Initiate can't die and stays conscious while below 0 HP (provided he was originally above 0 when he activated the ioun stone and put it in the wayfinder) and he can act normally (taking a point of damage for full-round or move and standard). How have I missed this?!
I'm trying to think what class would go best with that.
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So starting character around level 6, with a cracked pearly white ioun stone and wayfinder (total cost 3900GP), who is a half-orc with Endurance, Diehard and Deathless Initiate can't die and stays conscious while below 0 HP (provided he was originally above 0 when he activated the ioun stone and put it in the wayfinder) and he can act normally (taking a point of damage for full-round or move and standard).
As noted in the posts above, creatures with regeneration CAN and do die quite easily. Thus, even assuming the pearly white ioun stone provides full regeneration benefits (which is disputed)... one acid orb cantrip after you've been beaten down and you're a corpse.
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So starting character around level 6, with a cracked pearly white ioun stone and wayfinder (total cost 3900GP), who is a half-orc with Endurance, Diehard and Deathless Initiate can't die and stays conscious while below 0 HP (provided he was originally above 0 when he activated the ioun stone and put it in the wayfinder) and he can act normally (taking a point of damage for full-round or move and standard).As noted in the posts above, creatures with regeneration CAN and do die quite easily. Thus, even assuming the pearly white ioun stone provides full regeneration benefits (which is disputed)... one acid orb cantrip after you've been beaten down and you're a corpse.
Except acid doesn't shut of the stone's regeneration effect.
Except acid doesn't shut of the stone's regeneration effect.So starting character around level 6, with a cracked pearly white ioun stone and wayfinder (total cost 3900GP), who is a half-orc with Endurance, Diehard and Deathless Initiate can't die and stays conscious while below 0 HP (provided he was originally above 0 when he activated the ioun stone and put it in the wayfinder) and he can act normally (taking a point of damage for full-round or move and standard).As noted in the posts above, creatures with regeneration CAN and do die quite easily. Thus, even assuming the pearly white ioun stone provides full regeneration benefits (which is disputed)... one acid orb cantrip after you've been beaten down and you're a corpse.
Of course, after beating them down you can simply remove/destroy the floating ioun stone from above their should-be corpse and then they die.
Also, the ion stone only heals you as a (slowed-down) ring of regeneration...
... which doesn't actually give you regeneration, it just gives you regular healing that happens to regrow limbs and stuff as long as you lost them while the ring was equipped.
Aha! That's the key. It's not regeneration the ability but merely "gain a hit point every Round and regrow limbs". So if you hit -Con while wearing a ring of regen or pearly white ioun stone you still die.
Looks like the only way to almost never die, is a half-orc deathless initiate druid who wild shapes plant shape III into a plant with regen at level 12. Plant shape says you get regeneration 5, not regeneration 5 (fire) but presumably thats the intent. So there's 3 options, 2 acid and 1 fire. So depending what you're going for (probably a tenebrous blight for the size modifiers and fire resistance 20) you'd want the Earth domain for acid resistance 20 at level 12. That should keep you from dying from an acid splash or small effect, while wild shape will continue to work for 12 hours per shift.
As long as you can get back into the positives before your wildshape is up (or re-wildshape to renew the duration?) you should be fine. Since plants are immune to sleep, you likely don't need to sleep, so you should be able to keep renewing wildshape until you're back in the positives.
Again, this is all contingent on not taking 21+ points of acid damage in a round. A ring of energy shroud gives you a 1/day negation on an acid attack, hopefully keeping you alive.
That's the best I can find for near infinite life. You could also go mountain druid and wild shape a troll at 10 hours per shape. But trolls eventually need to sleep, plants don't.
does your native body a lot of good, especially with the tarradque rampaging in it.