Seriously, there's already a DC for tasting spoiled food. Does anyone really know what polio (say) tastes like? Where did that idea come from?
Its making me hungry. Stop it.
Do we need this skill? Taste disease? Justify this before making it permanent....please.
I suppose since tasting poisons (many of which are harmless when ingested) to identify them is completely valid and well established in various media, disease are a close follow. They are both harmful conditions generated by exterior factors which somehow penetrate the body's defenses, and often create noticable side effects.
That said, I think the idea of "tasting a disease" is so corner case, that the rules could just say "if this comes up, see Tasting Poisons for inspiration for DCs".
I suppose since tasting poisons (many of which are harmless when ingested) to identify them is completely valid and well established in various media, disease are a close follow. They are both harmful conditions generated by exterior factors which somehow penetrate the body's defenses, and often create noticable side effects.
Seriously, which viruses have you ever tasted? (Note that there's a separate DC for spoiled food, so that doesn't count.)
Well, I don't know about smelling airborne things,or whatever, but diagnosing disease or smelling what disease people have.
I can smell when people are sick and identify a few common infections just from having children.
Dogs can smell certain kinds of cancer.
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I suppose since tasting poisons (many of which are harmless when ingested) to identify them is completely valid and well established in various media, disease are a close follow. They are both harmful conditions generated by exterior factors which somehow penetrate the body's defenses, and often create noticable side effects.Seriously, which viruses have you ever tasted? (Note that there's a separate DC for spoiled food, so that doesn't count.)
Most viruses themselves do not have a discernable taste/order - none that I've heard of anyway. But when they start to attack certain organs - you can smell it when their function is impaired, especially anyone who has a liver or kidney problem.
Early doctors would smell the stool, urine, breath and skin of patients whose symptoms weren't obvious. But taste? Probably not.
Maybe it's just the dwarven medics who like to take a little nibble ;)
Mmm, I love me a box of Chewties. Contagiously delicious!
I am so happy to have entertained everyone. Actually, the smell desease skill is starting to grow on me. Really....have a taste.
I am just finding things wrong with the tinkering in the skill system. Am I the only one here?
Diseases do not have a smell, but by-products of bacterial infections as a result of disease usually do. When flesh decays, it isn't the flesh that smells bad, but rather the gases produced by the bacteria that begin eating the flesh after it has died that smells bad. Justifying the ability to taste disease (tasting actually being a subsidiary sense to smell) doesn't seem all that far-fetched.
Seriously, there's already a DC for tasting spoiled food. Does anyone really know what polio (say) tastes like? Where did that idea come from?
I hear Salmonella tastes like chicken, LOL.
I agree that there shouldn't be DCs for tasting or smelling diseases.
Seriously, there's already a DC for tasting spoiled food. Does anyone really know what polio (say) tastes like? Where did that idea come from?I hear Salmonella tastes like chicken, LOL.
I agree that there shouldn't be DCs for tasting or smelling diseases.
As a sciencephile, surely you jest. There is significant scientific precedent for such things. On a trip to Belize I spoke with a doctor who was able to recognize numerous diseases simply by smelling the patient.
Diseases do not have a smell, but by-products of bacterial infections as a result of disease usually do. When flesh decays, it isn't the flesh that smells bad, but rather the gases produced by the bacteria that begin eating the flesh after it has died that smells bad. Justifying the ability to taste disease (tasting actually being a subsidiary sense to smell) doesn't seem all that far-fetched.
Actually, I don't think so. If this were the case, why would medical autopsies be needed? Wouldn't the medical examiner just be able to smell a person to determine that the person died of a particular disease?
If a person has a disease and dies of some other circumstance (stabbed to death, let's say) and his body left out to decompose, is it the disease that makes him stink or is it the process of decomposition?
I'm not going to argue the point beyond this because I don't think it helps the game design - I just wanted to put some reasonable doubt into the argument that one can smell a disease. I think that in some VERY limited situations you can detect by smell. In most cases you could not and that is the common factor that you have to design a game around (unless you want to make it too complex to play).
I'm going to side with the OP on this one.
Even in a magical world, such as D&D/Golarion, the idea of tasting a disease is pushing things a bit far.
On the plus side, I did laugh out loud when I read it.
Case in point: Diet Coke with Lemon tastes like cancer.
Case in point: Diet Coke with Lemon tastes like cancer.
O.o?
LMAO
Actually, I don't think so. If this were the case, why would medical autopsies be needed? Wouldn't the medical examiner just be able to smell a person to determine that the person died of a particular disease?
You are right of course. I was playing devil's advocate because there is a legitimate ability to detect a disease by smell in a number of cases. However, you have done a very good job by pointing out it is not nearly so universal as to demand a mechanic in the rules.
Seriously, I side with those who opt for getting rid of it. It doesn't make much sense. We already have a Wisdom-based skill for determining if someone is diseased. It's called Heal.
Mmm, I love me a box of Chewties. Contagiously delicious!
No! Don't you know where Chewties comes from?
FACT: Cooties eats Cancer for breakfast.
Cooties attaches to your skin, travels up through your body and suckles up to the brain squirrel.
Don't be another statistic!
I'm glad somebody got that joke. It's good to know I'm not the only one with a sick sense of humor.
You are right of course. I was playing devil's advocate because there is a legitimate ability to detect a disease by smell in a number of cases. However, you have done a very good job by pointing out it is not nearly so universal as to demand a mechanic in the rules.
At any rate, Perception specifically allows you to taste "diseased food". It doesn't say anything about smelling a diseased person. Although I suppose you could put the diseased person between two slices of bread and call him a sandwich.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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At any rate, Perception specifically allows you to taste "diseased food". It doesn't say anything about smelling a diseased person. Although I suppose you could put the diseased person between two slices of bread and call him a sandwich.
Two Cannibals are eating a clown. One looks at the other and says, "Does this taste funny to you?"
I agree that this is rather silly.
That sounds like a supernatural ability.
So does this mean eating a dire rat allows you to taste filth fever?
Or does it mean they can taste salmonella and the like?
It shouldn't be a skill. Certain classes like monks and samurai should be able to do it (rule of cool) but not your average joe.
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I am somehow going to find a way to blame Richard Pett for this.
Very minor, non-plot related, RotRL spoiler below.
-Tarlane
Director of Game Design
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Guys,
I can see where this is stemming from. This skill usage has nothing to do with determining what disease it is, but merely noting that something is not quite right in the food you are eating. If you have accidently tried bad food, trust me, it is pretty obvious. No where does it say anything about smelling a disease or licking someone to see if their diseased. I appreciate the humor, but lets not confuse the rules.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Guys,
I can see where this is stemming from. This skill usage has nothing to do with determining what disease it is, but merely noting that something is not quite right in the food you are eating. If you have accidently tried bad food, trust me, it is pretty obvious. No where does it say anything about smelling a disease or licking someone to see if their diseased. I appreciate the humor, but lets not confuse the rules.
Jason -- you already put in a separate and distinct DC for tasting spoiled food. So what is the "tasting diseased food" DC for?
I certainly agree that tasting spoiled milk is obvious. Tasting milk that someone with a cold sneezed on is out of my experience.
In the real world, knowing whether water is safe to drink by taste is difficult to impossible. E. coli and "beaver fever" don't have any discernable taste, as far as I know.
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Director of Game Design
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Jason -- you already put in a separate and distinct DC for tasting spoiled food. So what is the "tasting diseased food" DC for?
I certainly agree that tasting spoiled milk is obvious. Tasting milk that someone with a cold sneezed on is out of my experience.
In the real world, knowing whether water is safe to drink by taste is difficult to impossible. E. coli and "beaver fever" don't have any discernable taste, as far as I know.
Well.. it is based off the Disease DC, so it needed a seperate line. As for some of the diseases you mention, one could assume that the DC is 20 or higher, meaning that you would not taste it unless you were specifically looking for it. It is not a perfect solution.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Well.. it is based off the Disease DC, so it needed a seperate line. As for some of the diseases you mention, one could assume that the DC is 20 or higher, meaning that you would not taste it unless you were specifically looking for it.
If someone could name three real-world diseases transmitted by food/water that one could plausibly detect by taste (excluding spoiled food, since that's already covered), I'd probably cave in and agree with you.
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Hogarth, that's a bizarre request.
You want examples of diseases carried in food that have no effect on the food itself (thus spoiling it). What sort of disease do you imagine takes the time to ride on a fleshy host but doesn't eat it? That's kind of the point.
If it's infected dead flesh you'll buy the concept of a taste/smell check, but if it's living infected flesh you wont?
Hogarth, that's a bizarre request.
Tasting a virus/bacteria is a bizarre ability.
:)You want examples of diseases carried in food that have no effect on the food itself (thus spoiling it)? What sort of disease do you imagine takes the time to ride on a fleshy host bot doesn't eat it? That's kind of the point.
I mentioned E. coli and "beaver fever", two diseases that are waterborne and tasteless. E. coli or the common cold could easily be transmitted by "unspoiled" food, I think.
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I assume any perception check is predicated by reasonably detectable phenomena. In the case of bacteria and viruses, it's the effects of these little buggers - not the bacteria themselves - that may be detected. If it's not detectable, because it hasn't proliferated or it doesn't have a secondary, observable effect, then I don't worry about a perception check.
For example: bread, cheese and beer have flavor because of bacterial processes, but I'm not about to deny that a character can taste it because they "can't taste bacteria".
It's not that taxing for a DM to decide when diseases do and do not smell/taste bad and to allow rolls (with racial bonuses) accordingly.
Is the rule written so loosely that stupid players will assume they can smell or taste the presence of anything that might do them harm?
It's not that taxing for a DM to decide when diseases do and do not smell/taste bad and to allow rolls (with racial bonuses) accordingly.
Is the rule written so loosely that stupid players will assume they can smell or taste the presence of anything that might do them harm?
I just think it's odd to add a rule for something that I don't think exists in real life (again, if someone can prove me wrong I'll shut up) and then say that the DM should use common sense when applying it.
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Hogarth, would you be more comfortable if it were smell check instead? I don't think we hear much of tasting diseases not because it's not possible, but because it's generally a bad idea. Not to get too graphic here, but you can indeed taste certain infections during...uh, intimate moments with your loved one.
Tasting a virus/bacteria is a bizarre ability.
:)
True, but you don't taste the virus/bacteria itself. You taste/smell the byproducts. Bacteria are known to produce some of most foul and distinctive odors in the world because of the gases they produce. Viruses don't have a taste themselves either, but the proteins that they are encoded for often radically alter a cell's biochemical environment, and this can sometimes cause an odor as an unusual byproduct like methane could be produced that the organism does not normally produce
Several diseases can be detected by smell/taste. Diabetes is the first to come to mind. That's how my gastroenterologist initially diagnosed me, actually, because when I gave the nurse a urine sample both she and the doctor detected a sharply sweet smell to it.
I'm almost certain that neither you nor your whizz is a piece of "diseased food", though, which is what we're discussing.
:)
Seriously, there's already a DC for tasting spoiled food. Does anyone really know what polio (say) tastes like? Where did that idea come from?
In certain ancient professions, I can see where where tasting a disease might come in handy. By then, however, it's probably too late.
Jason -- you already put in a separate and distinct DC for tasting spoiled food. So what is the "tasting diseased food" DC for?
I certainly agree that tasting spoiled milk is obvious. Tasting milk that someone with a cold sneezed on is out of my experience.
In the real world, knowing whether water is safe to drink by taste is difficult to impossible. E. coli and "beaver fever" don't have any discernable taste, as far as I know.
Well.. it is based off the Disease DC, so it needed a seperate line. As for some of the diseases you mention, one could assume that the DC is 20 or higher, meaning that you would not taste it unless you were specifically looking for it. It is not a perfect solution.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I guess my real question is to why we have to perceive a disease in food/drink at all. I admit that I have not read the entire alpha 3 rules yet but in the past you don't perceive being diseased when a creature diseases you (not instantly from a taste or smell or even a feel or spot). When you get diseased by creatures you generally don't know it until the incubation period has passed. Why would that be any different for food/drink?
With poisons it is more obvious because poisons are caustic, acidic, or otherwise detectable because of their bitterness, etc. (although there are some that aren't). Diseases however generally don't have a smell or taste (beyond a small few). So wouldn't it make more sense to know about the diseased food after we ingested it and the incubation period passed (therefore giving us symptoms)?
I have to agree that if the presence of a disease organism in the food hasn't actually spoiled the food in some way, it's unlikely to be detectable.
I remember when my grandmother tried to get me to drink spoiled milk because she didn't believe me at first when I said there was something wrong with it (I was only 4 or 5 at the time). I eventually cried and gagged with enough conviction that she checked and realized I was right. But I wasn't tasting the bacteria, I was tasting the acidic byproduct of their making a meal of the milk.
I can't think of any case where a naturally occuring disease organism could be detectable by taste in unspoiled food.
But this is D&D, so maybe a wonky magic disease would fit the bill.
Another possibility is if you have a substance in the food/water that is neither a pathogen nor magical, but the effects are written up as a disease instead of a poison.
And maybe an high level Rogue can taste the viruses in the stew after the cook sneezes in it. It's not likely to come up very often, but it's no more far-fetched than other extreme abilities in the game.
So I agree that you can both taste and smell spoilage in food, and you can often smell the effects of a disease on the patient. But tasting diseases probably won't come up that often.
Seriously, there's already a DC for tasting spoiled food. Does anyone really know what polio (say) tastes like? Where did that idea come from?
I don't see why a person couldn't taste bacteria that release toxins, such as common enterotoxic viruses.
I know I can taste them in RL.
Polio? Probably not.
I don't see why a person couldn't taste bacteria that release toxins, such as common enterotoxic viruses.I know I can taste them in RL.
What do they taste like when they're not in spoiled food? Just curious.
What do they taste like when they're not in spoiled food? Just curious.
I don't see why a person couldn't taste bacteria that release toxins, such as common enterotoxic viruses.I know I can taste them in RL.
The same. When the bacteria live they produce the toxins. I can taste them when they're in my stomach and I belch up some of their ichor, and when I vomit.
Again, I'm only talking about enterotoxic bacteria here.
What do they taste like when they're not in spoiled food? Just curious.
I don't see why a person couldn't taste bacteria that release toxins, such as common enterotoxic viruses.I know I can taste them in RL.
When they are in the food, the food is spoiled.
...Dogs can smell certain kinds of cancer.
And warts and a lot of other things.
When they are in the food, the food is spoiled.What do they taste like when they're not in spoiled food? Just curious.
I don't see why a person couldn't taste bacteria that release toxins, such as common enterotoxic viruses.I know I can taste them in RL.
Again: I don't have a problem with the spoiled food DC of 5.
I'm wondering about tasting (not smelling) diseases in food that isn't spoiled, something there's a specific DC for.
Most responses so far have fallen into one of two categories that doesn't address my central point:
-"Yes, you can smell a disease." [we're talking about tasting food, not smelling something]
-"Yes, you can taste diseases in spoiled food." [we're not talking about spoiled food; that has a separate DC]