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Well, of course, *in Golarion*, hermaphrodite would never be a term that was used, as neither Hermes nor Aphrodite are Golarion deities.
So I would suggest a coinage that includes the names of actual Golarion deities to express the same thing. Perhaps...Arshean? That might avoid real world baggage.
Probably would work better. Golarion does have a female god of love and beauty in Shelyn, but doesn't really have a male counterpart covering that area. So a portmanteau like Erastelyn or Sheyden might be reaching.
Actually wait, there is one. Or was. Dou-Bral!
Not sure of the best way to combine the two names. I can see one weld that should probably be avoided, but even tossing that one out I'm not sure which would make for the best term to build upon.
I think that this is one of those situations where the problem really is the word more than the concept. Most intersex people I have known have told me they find the term "hermaphrodite" offensive. I have therefore removed the word from my vocabulary, even though it always struck me as a cool world with interesting mythological underpinnings.I did not know that, and I'm glad I do know that now so I can try to be more considerate. However this knowledge leaves me in a bit of a dilemma, because I literally *cannot talk* about some aspects of the biological sciences if I can't use the term. Is there another word that I could use to describe this aspect of nonhuman biology? Would 'bi-gendered' be okay if I was talking about a fantastic race with snail type reproductive biology?
I hope I can help to clarify this a little.
It is not that you should completely remove the word from your vocabulary. You are correct that when talking about science and biology the word hermaphrodite should absolutely be used. It is literally the correct word when talking about animals, insects, etc. biology.
The problem is when people use the word outside of a strictly scientific usage. Casually or derogatorily referring to a Person as hermaphrodite is offensive at best, cruel and insulting at worse. A Person who is intersex is just that, they are intersex. That is the correct term for a Person, not an animal.
Until a person has been on the receiving end of a word that has been re-purposed as an insult to a group they belong to it is difficult for people to understand how insulting that word can be. As a gay man this is something I am very familiar with.
I hope this helps and I hope this doesn't come off as being aggressive.
I can see, though I wasn't fully aware before, of how it would be insulting to refer to an actual person that way, but it's a little harder for me to see how it's insulting when used to refer to a fantasy person. My understanding is that it isn't just the distinction between "word for animal with these characteristics" and "word for person with the same characteristics", but an actual distinction in the characteristics themselves.
Would a PF outsider who is fully functionally both sexes be considered "intersex"? Because it's not really the same condition as we find in humans.
Or even in other mammals, right? Would a dog, for example, with the characteristics we would classify as intersex in humans be considered hermaphrodite or is that reserved only for creatures like snails and flatworms?
Hmm. I suppose on the specifically Golarion side of things, how human(oid) tieflings are factors into things. I always thought of them as less strongly marked by their planar heritage than half-fiend or fiendish people, say, so that they’re closer to ordinary mortals despite popular prejudices among non-tieflings. Don’t they get the (native) subtype? What with skinwalkers and possible environmental adaptations (aquatic elves and gillmen, I’m looking at you!), to say nothing of sorcerer bloodlines, I imagine folks in Golarion might have a more generous idea of what’s normally human(oid) than we might. I’m not sure tieflings might not consider themselves human (or elf, dwarf, and so forth) with a twist.
As to the real-world terminology we might want to use to conceptualize characters like some asura-/fault-spawn tieflings, I’m not sure that “intersex” might not be the most appropriate. Besides avoiding a term that has historically been used as a slur, intersex covers a range of physiological features, including the presence of both male and female sets of sexual characteristics. There’s no record to my knowledge of a person who’s intersex in that sense having two functional reproductive systems, but given the incidence of intersexuality and how sex and gender work in most societies (who would ever tell us?), I’m not sure the possibility can be entirely ruled out. In any case, if a bi-functional form is possible in Golarion, just because or by magic or tiefling-ness, it seems eminently reasonable to extend the sense of intersex to include it. It might require a few more words to explain exactly what the author intended, but then that would probably be necessary anyway, since I think Paizo generally takes pains to avoid real-world terms for LGBT* (*including intersex) characters when describing them from a Golarion-centric perspective.
I apologize if I’ve inadvertently said something offensive; I’m trying to be concise, so I may have accidentally collapsed important distinctions or used an insensitive generalization. I’m sorry if that was the case.
Wouldn't using the term intersex incorrectly to describe a fantasy creature that in fact does have male and female sets of functioning sexual organs, be offensive? I mean at that point aren't implying that the term actually does describe a being with both sets of sexual organs, when irl it does not. Seems to me to be muddying the waters, not clearing things up.
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Wouldn't using the term intersex incorrectly to describe a fantasy creature that in fact does have male and female sets of functioning sexual organs, be offensive? I mean at that point aren't implying that the term actually does describe a being with both sets of sexual organs, when irl it does not. Seems to me to be muddying the waters, not clearing things up.
The great thing about fantasy is that things that are not possible in our world are suddenly possible. There is no reason why this cannot include people who are intersex being able to reproduce with both sex organs.
What is important is that at the game table you have real people who are playing. No matter how well you know the people at your table it is never ok to use offensive, insulting, or abusive language. Even if that language is not intended to harm.
So that Person who is playing an intersex tiefling, should not suddenly have to be labled with an offensive term (hermaphrodite) simply because the character they choose to play does not have standard real world biology.
Intersex should be used to descibe anything that a player would choose for their character. This includes humaniods, monstrous humaniods, plant races, many outsiders, magical beasts, awakened animals, fey, and likely many more.
Getting past strict definitions of words should be easy. Being inclusive of everyone who comes to your game table should be the goal.
Again please do not read the above comments as being aggresive. My goal is to bring insight and understanding.
...but it's a little harder for me to see how it's insulting when used to refer to a fantasy person. My understanding is that it isn't just the distinction between "word for animal with these characteristics" and "word for person with the same characteristics", but an actual distinction in the characteristics themselves.
Would a PF outsider who is fully functionally both sexes be considered "intersex"? Because it's not really the same condition as we find in humans.
Or even in other mammals, right? Would a dog, for example, with the characteristics we would classify as intersex in humans be considered hermaphrodite or is that reserved only for creatures like snails and flatworms?The reason it is insulting to refer to a fantasy character that way is because behind those fantasy characters are real people. Could you imagine telling one of your players that they are going to be casually and repeatedly called an insulting and offensive word, but it is ok because in another contex that word has a different meaning.
Also a fantasy world like Golarion is not bound by the same science that we have in our world. There is no reason why intersex people can't have a full range of reproductive capabilities. If we can imagine flying dragons, people who have demons for grandparents, and animals that can awaken and talk then it should be easy to imagine intersex people who have full reproductive capabilities with both sex organs.
Again the goal is not to remove the word hermaphrodite from our real world scientific usage. The goal is to use words that don't insult and alienate people at our game tables.
Again, I am not trying to be aggresive and I hope that is coming through. I hope this is helpful.
I ask this because I honestly have no clue, do intersex individuals view the idea of having both male and female functioning sex organs as some kind of ideal situation for them?
I ask this because I honestly have no clue, do intersex individuals view the idea of having both male and female functioning sex organs as some kind of ideal situation for them?
That's an interesting questions, and one I have never thought to ask. My guess would be that like with any group of people the answer depends on the individual.
And to tie this back to Golarion, I would guess in a fantasy setting where there is far more variation in biology, which or how many organs you use for reproduction isn't a big deal, after all when you have shapeshifters, lycanthropes, and alteration magic that kind of leaves things pretty open.
As Brinebeast said, I think it varies from person to person. I gather – although I may not be recalling the case correctly – that there have been people who we would call intersex today who lived happily enough with both sets of sex organs, and I imagine some of them might have liked it if both systems were fully functional.
Again, though, beyond individuals’ varying attitudes within such a situation, there are many forms of intersex, for each of which a person might have a different idea about the ideal situation for them. As I more or less understand it, and as the ever enthusiastic Wiki puts it, intersex basically refers to “a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female.” For example, folks with androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) might have XY genes but be “phenotypically female” and be entirely happy women. Presumably what they would find ideal in their situation could be quite different. Some of them might prefer to have been able to have children, but my point is that how one might be intersex and what one would find ideal in that situation varies.
To get back to what we were talking about in Golarion, I don’t think anyone’s suggesting that all creatures who would fit somewhere in the spectrum we call intersex in humans should be called intersex, as they could have their own way of thinking about things. Conversely, as players probably find it helpful to use terms they’re familiar with in real life to put themselves in the shoes of characters in their game, it makes sense to me to avoid terms that would be offensive when applied to real-life humans. After all, is it more likely that players are going to generalize the qualities of imaginary non-humans to humans or vice versa? (E.g., to stick to Golarion material, “humans can have ilduliel like elves do, only humans’ are often less intense because their lives tend to be more fast-paced,” vs. “elves can have feuds like humans do, but often focus on taking apart an enemy’s life by competing for everything that person wants rather than on specific compensation for the offense?”)
Tieflings specifically, I think, are basically human, so terminology applied to them is particularly significant. If the Bestiary description is the default, they’re described there precisely as humans with an evil outsider somewhere in their ancestry, and I think elsewhere in canon whatever makes a tiefling can lie latent for generations (recessive genes or a fantasy equivalent?). In that case, one might think of a character as possessing any quality normally available to humans and also as being a tiefling – in the case of asura-spawn tieflings, that might be being intersex, in a way that is further informed by the possibilities that asura heritage brings with it.
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I really do not ever want to be hurtful to othernon cisgenderedpeople.
Words to live by, no matter who you are.
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Just because people accept their parents are having sex doesn't mean they wan to be confronted with it directly. I suspect most people that do not wish LGBT content in Paizo books are much the same, it doesn't make them wrong or haters.
Actually, it does. Homosexuality is not private. Your parents (up until this post, anyway) have some matters that are private that people may not want to confront. But there is no truth in the parallel you are making. It is absolutely a position of hatred, to say that heterosexuality is normal and acceptable but homosexuality or other-sexuality is private and impolite.
As for hermaphrodites... that's a toughie. First, let me say that if someone is transgender or intersexed, I would not intentionally do or say anything intentionally to hurt or disregard. The thing is, Hermaphrodite is a historical deity, and a popular one, at that. When I think about the term applied to a humanoid being, the first place my mind goes to are some famous works depicting Hermaphrodite. In fact, that imagery is typically associated with a particular body plan encompassing the most prominent primary and secondary characteristics of male and female sexes. Thus, I would expect to have a hermaphroditic tiefling to be both breasted and phallic.
I think my offering to this discussion is nuance. Nuance is often unsatisfying, but sometimes the only way to avoid untruths. I think hermaphroditic is an acceptable description for a tiefling in a work, for the reasons I described above. At the same time, I think it's probably inappropriate appearing in a random tiefling features table. The reason being, there are two categories of people most likely to encounter that entry in a significant way. First, there are the uninformed. By including that feature in the table, it perpetuates negative imagery surrounding real-life sex and gender issues. People who don't know any better will thoughtlessly perpetuate the emotional violence of erasure. The second class of people I am thinking of are of course the people affected by the imagery. It's just not fair to re-traumatize people with very little warning. Reading a table of tiefling features, you don't expect to have your personal struggles and the discrimination you face made light of. A third category of people, those who view the entry simply as fantasy and mythology and aesthetics, can live their lives fully without that entry being included.
Put simply, Pathfinder is a mass market game, and therefore the strongest consideration should be "people in general" and not a narrow slice of people attracted to a certain element or aesthetic. I think the principle of, "First, do no harm," applies in this case.
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Honestly the hermaphrodite thing seems perfectly fine to me and I don't see what the big deal is. It's a thing that does not occur in humans (to my knowledge) and further drives home the otherworldly / unusual nature of tieflings. I see it as no more deserving of scorn than things like vestigial tails (which some humans are born with in reality).
On the same tiefling traits tables (if we're talking about the same ones) it has other biological features that include androgyny, baldness, malformed features, undersized limb(s), hunchbacked, extra digits, no nails, missing nose, canine muzzle, animated hair, animalistic features, scales, feathers, rotting flesh, an exoskeleton, vestigial limb(s), etc.
Honestly, though I hadn't planned to toss my coppers into the pot on this one, I think railing against the correct usage of the word (being a creature with multiple functional reproductive systems associated with being male/female) is a perpetuation of ignorance. The same kind of ignorance that leads to bigoted thinking.
Don't hate the word, and don't steal people's cookies. Educate others that intersexed people are not hermaphrodites, don't hide the word or stop using it. All that does is give it power and alienate people for silly reasons. Stop drawing lines in the sand and seek unity. >_>
I for one really like the idea of having a character that could be both a father and a mother (without shapeshifting magics) and think such a thing would really make you think in the fantastic for a moment. In much the same way, a character who reproduces aesexually would also be an interesting thing to consider when developing a character.
But yeah, honestly the anti-hermaphrodite thing just comes off to me as really ignorant and destructive. Rather than fixing a problem (through education) it seeks to hide away what is seen as unacceptable or uncomfortable (a word that is sometimes misused), which in my mind directly mirrors the exact destructive thinking that causes the issue in the first place. To quote a smart person...
Actually, it does. Homosexuality is not private. Your parents (up until this post, anyway) have some matters that are private that people may not want to confront. But there is no truth in the parallel you are making. It is absolutely a position of hatred, to say that heterosexuality is normal and acceptable but homosexuality or other-sexuality is private and impolite.
Recoiling to ignorance and hiding things you don't like or understand is no better for a word than for people. Embracing understanding in all things should solve more problems than it creates.
Forgive me for my ignorance but: what's all this controversy I'm hearing about Lamashtu's Flower? I only started getting into Pathfinder around 2012, so I don't have the old Osirion book and in the current one it just seems like a normal, everyday "gathering of evil cultists for evil god". IE not controversial, at least not to me. And all Pathfinder wikis are suspiciously quiet on what exactly is so controversial about it.
I ask in this thread because it was mentioned a page or two ago, but again I'm kinda new to Pathfinder in general so I'm puzzled as to what it refers to. Sorry if it's the wrong place to ask.
Calling Lamashtu's Flower a 'gathering of evil cultists to an evil god', is kind of like saying 'getting knock-out drunk & losing your virginity is a rite of passage for young mid-western American men'. It might be correct , but it certainly isn't the whole story...
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I have a character i may be playing soon that has the "bishonen" look but is actually a hermaphrodite (as randomly rolled on the tiefling features table in Blood of feinds i think) and im really not sure how the group will feel about him. It is for skull and shackles so im really hoping we do not start off too stripped because i really wanted to wait to explain this oneOh lord, did we actually print "hermaphrodite" as a possible random feature for tieflings?
"Hermaphrodite" is not a good term to apply to people. Hermaphrodite is for talking about snails and flatworms. For humans (and tieflings), the world you want is "intersex".
In the Magnimar book, the tiefling who makes all of those succubus statues was very clearly stated to be hermaphrodite
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Every time the conversation gets interesting, Chris. Every time. :P
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Honestly the hermaphrodite thing seems perfectly fine to me and I don't see what the big deal is. It's a thing that does not occur in humans (to my knowledge) and further drives home the otherworldly / unusual nature of tieflings. I see it as no more deserving of scorn than things like vestigial tails (which some humans are born with in reality).
Honestly, though I hadn't planned to toss my coppers into the pot on this one, I think railing against the correct usage of the word (being a creature with multiple functional reproductive systems associated with being male/female) is a perpetuation of ignorance. The same kind of ignorance that leads to bigoted thinking.
Don't hate the word, and don't steal people's cookies. Educate others that intersexed people are not hermaphrodites, don't hide the word or stop using it. All that does is give it power and alienate people for silly reasons. Stop drawing lines in the sand and seek unity. >_>
I for one really like the idea of having a character that could be both a father and a mother (without shapeshifting magics) and think such a thing would really make you think in the fantastic for a moment. In much the same way, a character who reproduces aesexually would also be an interesting thing to consider when developing a character.
But yeah, honestly the anti-hermaphrodite thing just comes off to me as really ignorant and destructive. Rather than fixing a problem (through education) it seeks to hide away what is seen as unacceptable or uncomfortable (a word that is sometimes misused), which in my mind directly mirrors the exact destructive thinking that causes the issue in the first place.
I have to agree with this poster.
1) I would think that an intersex person who is offended by being called a hermaphrodite would be like a Japanese person who was offended by being called a Chinese: the offense being due to the fact that that is not what they are.
I would not expect an intersex person to be offended by an actual hermaphrodite being called that any more than I would expect a Japanese person to be offended by hearing someone from China being called a Chinese.
If an intersex person really does find the proper use of the word hermaphrodite to be offensive, I would have to consider that as bigoted as I would if a Japanese person was offended at the mere mention of Chinese.
...and really, are there not already enough offensive words in existence? Do we really need to tarnish more words with that label?
2) If it is absolutely necessary to use a different word than hermaphrodite, may I suggest "dual-sex" rather than either "intersex" (which has a specific meaning and is not a synonym for hermaphrodite) or some made up word whose meaning is not immediately obvious?
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I am new to playing the pathfinder game but I have been role playing games for decades. I have just recently started playing pbp here on Paizo. I don't really want to make a comment directly about homosexuality in games but how do the moderators of these threads wish us to portray any type of hostility/tension towards other players whether it is due to race, religion, sexuality social standing....?
I tired to read through as many posts as possible but there were just so many. I apologize if this is rehashing something that has already been said.
Say I made a character who is half orc. His back story was that his mother was raped by orcs and he has developed a hatred of orcs because his half blood status has made him an outcast in his society.Is this a character back story that Paizo wants to see used by PC's, because it could lead to unwanted hostility if a player is trying to be true to their "role", or does Paizo prefer us to create characters that will easily get along with others for a better flow of game?
Would another player who is playing an orc in a campaign with me be offended if I could them, "Filthy, dirty, scum of the earth"? Or would it be better if I just showed irritation towards that character with out directly lashing out at them? If I should do neither then would it be better to not have a back story that may create issues like that?
My question is then what is the purpose of a character's back story?
Is the purpose just to add a little bit of flavor so every character has something unique about themselves or is the purpose to drive the character's story throughout the campaign?
I think one of the things I read before joining this site was to be sure that whatever you post is not offensive to other players. Can we really do that in a fictitious world if most of us can not do that in the real world?
I could state, because of religious beliefs, that I think all demons should be removed from this game because they offend me. I am sure the response would be, "If you don't like the idea of demons, then find another game to play."
Back to the individual who made this post. What does adding more individuals of a given trait or sexuality really add to this game? If I create a story and I think something will enhance a game then it is great to add as much fluff as necessary. If we are adding something because we need to be politically correct or meet some type of quota, then I think that is being a little ridiculous.
This is a fantasy game, not a reenactment of historical events. Whatever existed hundreds or thousands of years ago in our society does not need to apply to a fantasy world. When in Rome? Well this is not Rome.
Do I think there needs to be more homosexual characters in this game? No more than I think it needs more elves, more demons, more orcs, more dragons, more magic items, more anything.
I enjoy role playing games for the fantasy not the reality. I want to escape the insanity I experience everyday and read on the news. I want to get lost in a world that is nothing like the one we live in. Every time we start making fantasy feel more like the real world then it becomes less enjoyable to me and I am sure to many others as well.
Whatever you do, make sure it is something that makes the playing experience better for everyone. If you are unsure then maybe it is best to avoid that here and search for another outlet for expressing those interests.
Perhaps, if not already done this way, add something to each module warning people there may be content that they do not agree with and let each player decide if they want to join that campaign
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In a home game, I'd talk about that character with the GM and any player running an orc. See what they think and how you and they want that relationship to play out.
No, you can't always avoid posting something that will be offensive to someone. You can however avoid obvious triggers. Anyone past the age of about 10 has figured out how to do this in normal life. "Don't swear in front of Grandma. She doesn't like it."
One of the ways this fantasy world doesn't have to be like the real world is that LBGTQ people in it can just be part of everyday life, not a discriminated against minority. Much like women can play a more equal role in this fantasy world than in real historical equivalents. Some people find that an enjoyable difference from their real life. Others would prefer a fantasy world where women knew their place or LGBTQ people didn't exist. That's not what Paizo is going for though.
Nothing will make the playing experience better for everyone, at least on the publishing level of "everyone". People like different things. People are bothered by different things. Removing everything that anyone won't like just leaves a bland, boring game.
I like the idea of the warning though. They could just put it on every module: "Warning: There may be content you don't agree with." No need to specify.
Yeah, best put, " Warning: may contain nuts.", just to be on the safe side.
Yeah, best put, " Warning: may contain nuts.", just to be on the safe side.In a home game, I'd talk about that character with the GM and any player running an orc. See what they think and how you and they want that relationship to play out.
No, you can't always avoid posting something that will be offensive to someone. You can however avoid obvious triggers. Anyone past the age of about 10 has figured out how to do this in normal life. "Don't swear in front of Grandma. She doesn't like it."
One of the ways this fantasy world doesn't have to be like the real world is that LBGTQ people in it can just be part of everyday life, not a discriminated against minority. Much like women can play a more equal role in this fantasy world than in real historical equivalents. Some people find that an enjoyable difference from their real life. Others would prefer a fantasy world where women knew their place or LGBTQ people didn't exist. That's not what Paizo is going for though.
Nothing will make the playing experience better for everyone, at least on the publishing level of "everyone". People like different things. People are bothered by different things. Removing everything that anyone won't like just leaves a bland, boring game.
I like the idea of the warning though. They could just put it on every module: "Warning: There may be content you don't agree with." No need to specify.
To me that is redundant, as the possibility of offense exists in all media. It's impossible to make an interesting product that doesn't offend some person somewhere in the world. It's up to the consumer to monitor their content and make a choice of whether a product is worth the potential offense.
In the case of the subject of the thread, If someone really is uncomfortable with a the existence of a gay couple in a product, or a transgender person, It's incredibly easy to ignore or replace. It certainly doesn't color the whole product, at least not as much as a religious conservative who doesn't like the ideas of demons in roleplaying games and is considering buying Wrath of the Righteous
Honestly the hermaphrodite thing seems perfectly fine to me and I don't see what the big deal is. It's a thing that does not occur in humans (to my knowledge) and further drives home the otherworldly / unusual nature of tieflings. I see it as no more deserving of scorn than things like vestigial tails (which some humans are born with in reality).
Honestly, though I hadn't planned to toss my coppers into the pot on this one, I think railing against the correct usage of the word (being a creature with multiple functional reproductive systems associated with being male/female) is a perpetuation of ignorance. The same kind of ignorance that leads to bigoted thinking.
Don't hate the word, and don't steal people's cookies. Educate others that intersexed people are not hermaphrodites, don't hide the word or stop using it. All that does is give it power and alienate people for silly reasons. Stop drawing lines in the sand and seek unity. >_>
I for one really like the idea of having a character that could be both a father and a mother (without shapeshifting magics) and think such a thing would really make you think in the fantastic for a moment. In much the same way, a character who reproduces aesexually would also be an interesting thing to consider when developing a character.
But yeah, honestly the anti-hermaphrodite thing just comes off to me as really ignorant and destructive. Rather than fixing a problem (through education) it seeks to hide away what is seen as unacceptable or uncomfortable (a word that is sometimes misused), which in my mind directly mirrors the exact destructive thinking that causes the issue in the first place.
I have to agree with this poster.
1) I would think that an intersex person who is offended by being called a hermaphrodite would be like a Japanese person who was offended by being called a Chinese: the offense being due to the fact that that is not what they are.
I would not expect an intersex person to be offended by an actual hermaphrodite being called that any more than I would expect a Japanese person to be offended by hearing someone from China being called a Chinese.
If an intersex person really does find the proper use of the word hermaphrodite to be offensive, I would have to consider that as bigoted as I would if a Japanese person was offended at the mere mention of Chinese.
...and really, are there not already enough offensive words in existence? Do we really need to tarnish more words with that label?
2) If it is absolutely necessary to use a different word than hermaphrodite, may I suggest "dual-sex" rather than either "intersex" (which has a specific meaning and is not a synonym for hermaphrodite) or some made up word whose meaning is not immediately obvious?
I don’t know, and I don’t have a personal stake in this myself, but this is how I think people are approaching the issue. While intersex does have a specific meaning, to the best of my knowledge it’s an umbrella term, including a variety of states and conditions. Historically, it has categorized various types of “pseudo-hermaphroditism,” suggesting that the elusive true hermaphroditism was conceived as the crowning jewel, as it were, of the human range of intersex. So I can see the case for including hermaphroditism (hypothetically) within the larger category of intersex as applied to humans and – in Golarion (since that is the focus of this discussion, after all) – humanoids and other people: in game terms, as a subtype of intersex. :)
That would also make room to avoid awkwardness at the gaming table: rather than just dropping a word that in real-life contexts might well be offensive (i.e., to intersex folks who might have been misidentified and taunted as hermaphrodites), introducing it more tactfully. “-Oh, so these sorts of people in Golarion are often intersex. -How so? –Well, they can have both male and female physical characteristics, and these folks in particular can even be hermaphroditic.” To my mind, that would make it clear that no simplistic misidentification of intersex and hermaphroditism was intended, and draw an appropriate distinction, but then it’s not something I’ve had to deal with.
On a side note, if we’re looking for different words, why not take a leaf from botany and use “monoecious?” Hopefully, it avoids baggage, and also avoids the oddness of referring to species in which “hermaphroditism” is the usual configuration in terms of allusion to a rather singular character from human mythology, with its connotations of unusualness.
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It was my point, but what's that about ogres?I haven't actually played it, but Mama Graul and her hillbilly ogre family have quite a reputation for being graphic.
Graphic how?
I never thought I'd be 'ogre-curious'. : /
It was my point, but what's that about ogres?I haven't actually played it, but Mama Graul and her hillbilly ogre family have quite a reputation for being graphic.
Graphic how?
I never thought I'd be 'ogre-curious'. : /
Mostly violence, as I understand it. Some of it sexual, at least implied.
Deliverance has been suggested as inspiration.
While that was kinda implied...there was also the was inspired by the X-Files episode called 'Home' with very strong incest overtones.
Definitely very disturbing.
On a side note, if we’re looking for different words, why not take a leaf from botany and use “monoecious?” Hopefully, it avoids baggage, and also avoids the oddness of referring to species in which “hermaphroditism” is the usual configuration in terms of allusion to a rather singular character from human mythology, with its connotations of unusualness.
I would say that word has the problem of being esoteric... I am fascinated by biology in all its forms but had not come across that word and would have no idea what it means without the context of this thread. It is the same problem that using a made up word based on Golarion deities presents, the meaning is not immediately apparent. Most new players would be even more bewildered than I would be.
The suggestion I proposed ("dual-sex"), is pretty obvious in meaning.
I still think the demonizing of the word "hermaphrodite" is excessive.
Take the following quote:
My overall point being, even if you think you have valid scientific reasons for calling an imaginary race "hermaphrodites", it's still a dehumanizing and insulting word for real-world intersex people.
Replace "hermaphrodites" with "Chinese" and "intersex" with "Japanese" and it reads like something straight from the mind of a bigot. I would like to think that intersex people are sufficiently intelligent individuals that they would not be offended by the proper use of the word and I find the implications that they are assumed to be so small minded as to be offended by a biological term to be disturbing.
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The problem with "hermaphrodite" is that it was used as a vaguely learned term of abuse for non-gender conforming people historically, such as in the 19th and early 20th century. For example, Madame Trianon, the associate of La Voisin (both witches implicated in the Affair of the Poisons in late 17th century Paris) was called one in an obviously bigoted way in older works I consulted when studying the subject.
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" Warning: may contain nuts."
:3
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I'm not sure how much this may play into folks' feeling on the matter, but nowadays the term "hermaphrodite" seems to have a ton of fetishization attached to it. I can imagine wanting to be separated from that might be another reason for preferring "intersex", which doesn't have that baggage or the historical variety Jeff mentioned just above.
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I'm not sure how much this may play into folks' feeling on the matter, but nowadays the term "hermaphrodite" seems to have a ton of fetishization attached to it. I can imagine wanting to be separated from that might be another reason for preferring "intersex", which doesn't have that baggage or the historical variety Jeff mentioned just above.
Yeah. that too.
Take the following quote:
My overall point being, even if you think you have valid scientific reasons for calling an imaginary race "hermaphrodites", it's still a dehumanizing and insulting word for real-world intersex people.Replace "hermaphrodites" with "Chinese" and "intersex" with "Japanese" and it reads like something straight from the mind of a bigot. I would like to think that intersex people are sufficiently intelligent individuals that they would not be offended by the proper use of the word and I find the implications that they are assumed to be so small minded as to be offended by a biological term to be disturbing.
I suppose, but given how “intersex” seems to work in some contexts, as an umbrella term (As an aside, what definition do we want to use?), I wonder if a better analogy might be to replace “hermaphrodite” with “[racially-charged epithet]” – especially one referring to physical features* – and “intersex” with “Asian.”
* N.b.: I don’t want to inadvertently cause the forum filters and any readers grief by offering a specific example, purely as illustration. If you can’t fill one in yourself, all I can say is that I must imagine you had a more tolerant childhood environment than I did.
A description might be (somewhat) accurate in a limiting case but still be one to be avoided where possible because it has been misused in the past. Language evolves, after all.
A.1.b. An effeminate man or virile woman.
A.1.c. A catamite.
…
A.4.a. fig. A person or thing in which any two opposite attributes or qualities are combined.
Similarly, they define “intersex” as follows:
Biol. In a diœcious species, an abnormal form or individual having characteristics of both sexes; the condition of being of this type.
In all fairness, these entries haven’t been fully updated since the ‘30s, so I Googled brute force for definitions and picked an arbitrary online dictionary, the Merriam-Webster, from which one obtains:
Hermaphrodite
1: an animal or plant having both male and female reproductive organs
2: something that is a combination of diverse elements
Intersex is merely cross-referenced with Intersexual
1: existing between sexes <intersexual hostility>
2: intermediate in sexual characters between a typical male and a typical female
Their “medical” tab is a bit better, but still nothing to write home about. Now, obviously we’re not talking about specialist stuff here, and I haven’t even touched Wiki – well, in one of my posts above – but that’s kind of what I’m getting at. If this is at all representative of what a curious but not too motivated person will find if they want just to go on something more than the ideas they might have imbibed from their environment, it is vague at best and offensive at worst. I’m embarrassed for you, faithful OED! At least add an Obs.! ;)
I don’t think anyone here means to demonize the word “hermaphrodite.” It has its uses, but the problem is that it has very often been misapplied outside of more specialized biological contexts, and in most games, I don’t think there’s usually a clear marker when one’s shifting to a biological register. When a casual reader sees “hermaphrodite” in their game material, how are they most likely to interpret it, what is the popular connotation? I doubt it’s necessarily a nuanced biological sense, and it doesn’t seem unduly onerous or problematic to me to find another way of phrasing it to avoid causing a hypothetical player grief, but YMMV, as they say.
To bring it back to Golarion, for species in which sex is not usually organized by Hermeses and Aphrodites, referring to hermaphroditism rather than finding a more precise word in a setting which might allow for a more fantastical play of language strikes me as odd, and for people like tieflings who are more or less human we already have a more general word to which the appropriate nuance might be added as needed.
