Homosexuality in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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SRS wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Worth noting here that your assumptions are very, very different from many people's realities. Many trans people like their bodies just fine, and there are many straight trans people (that is, trans people who are attracted to the gender they were forced to pose as in their youth), so the idea that trans people are inherently repulsed by the sex they were assigned at birth is a pretty long stretch. Hell, I'm a lesbian and I still really like to look at boys.

Most heterosexuals like their bodies enough to be turned on by them to the point of having successful masturbation. But, the point I was trying to make is that, like hetersexuals, a pre-op transgendered person is less turned on by the sex of their body than the bodies of the other sex. That gives them a closer connection to heterosexuality, as heterosexuals prefer the opposite physical sex.

It is only just recently that the DSM was changed to remove transgenderism from the list of disorders. The disorder, as far as I know, was described as being correctable with intervention (surgery and hormones) and was about not being happy with the current physical sex of one's body.

That's... not at all the case. While I appreciate that you're trying to argue for inclusion and acceptance, you're arguing vague, uninformed theories over the lived experience of actual transgender people. Trans people do not transition because they have a general revulsion for the sex they were assigned at birth; they transition because the sex they were assigned at birth doesn't fit for them. It doesn't have anything to do with sexuality. Trans people can still be straight, gay, bi, pan, ace, or whatever other sexualities, and if roughly similar ratios as the cis population.

I'm unsure what the Diagnostic and Statical Manual for Mental Disorders has to do with the argument about trans people's lived experiences.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
SRS wrote:
Most heterosexuals like their bodies enough to be turned on by them to the point of having successful masturbation.
Although I can't speak for anyone else, I seriously doubt that they are thinking about themselves at this point, and are instead visualising someone who does turn them on.

But, if their body was so repellant, they wouldn't be able to derive pleasure from it. Ask most heterosexual men if they desire placing their hands on erect male genitalia in order to obtain orgasm and they'll say "No way, I'm not gay".

Self-touch masturbation is a homosexual sex act. Its commonness does suggest support for the argument that everyone is somewhat bisexual in terms of sexual behavior openness (behavior not being the same thing as orientation). The reason I pointed this out is because some people were asking for more nuance.

Nuance is important, but for the point I was making it was peripheral.

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Removed some posts. Let's leave the personal insults out of the conversation. And again, this thread is centered around Golarion, what may occur in the real world isn't necessarily on topic here, or appropriate to debate here. If you have issues with our moderation practices, you can email webmaster@paizo.com.


What would be the best way to indicate that a random woman is a trans-woman in the game? Say the party goes to a tavern and take in the surroundings and the people there. Would having an opposed perception vs. disguise be appropriate or would that be offensive? Some better option?

Project Manager

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SMS, please stop trying to explain other people's experiences to them. It's not cool.

And friends, Chris asked people to take this thread back on topic. Please do so.


pres man wrote:
What would be the best way to indicate that a random woman is a trans-woman in the game? Say the party goes to a tavern and take in the surroundings and the people there. Would having an opposed perception vs. disguise be appropriate or would that be offensive? Some better option?

I'd say it would depend on whether they'd transitioned or not and what they'd used to do so.

If they were just dressing and acting as a woman, then a disguise check would be appropriate. An illusory change would follow the normal rules for such things. If they've physically transitioned, then it will depend on what process was used for that. Most magical ones I'd assume would transcend any perception skill.
You'd only find out through roleplay. If someone told you or if there was other evidence that they'd changed.

Webstore Gninja Minion

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We've asked several times to keep this thread on-topic and relevant to the campaign setting. Argue semantics elsewhere.

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thejeff wrote:
pres man wrote:
What would be the best way to indicate that a random woman is a trans-woman in the game? Say the party goes to a tavern and take in the surroundings and the people there. Would having an opposed perception vs. disguise be appropriate or would that be offensive? Some better option?

I'd say it would depend on whether they'd transitioned or not and what they'd used to do so.

If they were just dressing and acting as a woman, then a disguise check would be appropriate. An illusory change would follow the normal rules for such things. If they've physically transitioned, then it will depend on what process was used for that. Most magical ones I'd assume would transcend any perception skill.
You'd only find out through roleplay. If someone told you or if there was other evidence that they'd changed.

Remember that most trans women look pretty much like every other woman.

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pres man wrote:
What would be the best way to indicate that a random woman is a trans-woman in the game? Say the party goes to a tavern and take in the surroundings and the people there. Would having an opposed perception vs. disguise be appropriate or would that be offensive? Some better option?

Yeah, that would be pretty offensive.

Pathfinder doesn't really have a system for rating appearance or delicate social interactions, so honestly I don't think it's an issue you'd roll for or even bring up for general NPCs. The barmaid may be a trans girl, but it's probably not something the PCs would notice or need to know, any more than they'd need to know if she lost a child five years ago, or if she's an immigrant, or belongs to a minority religion. You might want to bring it up if it's relevant to characterization (either the PCs or to flesh out the NPC), or if it relates to something the characters do in-game (if they're wooing her, or she needs someone to chase the kobolds away from the glen where she picks her black cohosh).

Reducing spotting if there are any trans women in the tavern to a Perception check is about as mature as saying "Roll a Perception check to spot the hottest girl." And having it as an opposed roll against Disguise implies some creepy things.


Crystal Frasier wrote:
thejeff wrote:
pres man wrote:
What would be the best way to indicate that a random woman is a trans-woman in the game? Say the party goes to a tavern and take in the surroundings and the people there. Would having an opposed perception vs. disguise be appropriate or would that be offensive? Some better option?

I'd say it would depend on whether they'd transitioned or not and what they'd used to do so.

If they were just dressing and acting as a woman, then a disguise check would be appropriate. An illusory change would follow the normal rules for such things. If they've physically transitioned, then it will depend on what process was used for that. Most magical ones I'd assume would transcend any perception skill.
You'd only find out through roleplay. If someone told you or if there was other evidence that they'd changed.

Remember that most trans women look pretty much like every other woman.

But Modern hormone treatments and surgery aren't likely to be common on Golarion. You'll either have people living as transwomen without any changes to their physical body or people who're using magic, either illusion or transformation.

Both perception and disguise skills seem appropriate to the first case. Actually, I partly take that back. Unless they have some reason to be suspicious of you, (or suspicious in general), there's no automatic Perception check. And I'd probably give a circumstance bonus for it being a familiar disguise.

With magic, the standard rules for that type of magic would apply.


Crystal Frasier wrote:
pres man wrote:
What would be the best way to indicate that a random woman is a trans-woman in the game? Say the party goes to a tavern and take in the surroundings and the people there. Would having an opposed perception vs. disguise be appropriate or would that be offensive? Some better option?

Yeah, that would be pretty offensive.

Pathfinder doesn't really have a system for rating appearance or delicate social interactions, so honestly I don't think it's an issue you'd roll for or even bring up for general NPCs. The barmaid may be a trans girl, but it's probably not something the PCs would notice or need to know, any more than they'd need to know if she lost a child five years ago, or if she's an immigrant, or belongs to a minority religion. You might want to bring it up if it's relevant to characterization (either the PCs or to flesh out the NPC), or if it relates to something the characters do in-game (if they're wooing her, or she needs someone to chase the kobolds away from the glen where she picks her black cohosh).

Reducing spotting if there are any trans women in the tavern to a Perception check is about as mature as saying "Roll a Perception check to spot the hottest girl." And having it as an opposed roll against Disguise implies some creepy things.

My natural tendency is to approach it exactly as you say, make it a non-issue unless it needs to be an issue. But there has also been discussion that if as a GM, you are not including people explicitly, you are implying they don't exist.

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thejeff wrote:

But Modern hormone treatments and surgery aren't likely to be common on Golarion. You'll either have people living as transwomen without any changes to their physical body or people who're using magic, either illusion or transformation.

Both perception and disguise skills seem appropriate to the first case. Actually, I partly take that back. Unless they have some reason to be suspicious of you, (or suspicious in general), there's no automatic Perception check. And I'd probably give a circumstance bonus for it being a familiar disguise.

With magic, the standard rules for that type of magic would apply.

Fun fact: My downtime hobby is researching transgender history, and while modern genital reconstruction series didn't emerge until the 1920s, hormone therapy and dozens of techniques for castration have been around for thousands of years. Ovid (the Roman historian) and Heroditus (the Greek historian) both specifically wrote about the Scythians (the original amazons) having a potion they'd brew they described as an "emasculating poison". Many of the first nations in North America had teas and tinctures and brews they'd make to ease PMS, menopause, and to bring peace of mind to people born outside the gende rbinary. Heck, the Roman Gallae had a specific holiday on which new arrivals would castrate themselves (because Roman trans women were hardcore).

Golarion absolutely has access to all these old techniques, and alchemy to boot. Most trans men and women in Golarion can get a huge variety of treatments, depending on where they live and their affluence. And that's even before getting into magic.


pres man wrote:
What would be the best way to indicate that a random woman is a trans-woman in the game? Say the party goes to a tavern and take in the surroundings and the people there. Would having an opposed perception vs. disguise be appropriate or would that be offensive? Some better option?

One of my favorite NPCs in my current campaign, Victoria (whom I've mentioned a few times), uses Disguise. It seemed natural enough and it's already accounted for in the Disguise skill (-2 for appearing as a different gender), though in many cases it might also qualify for "minor details only" which gives a +5 to the check as well, so you're looking at somewhere between a -2 and +3 modifier, taking 10 with a +0 Charisma and no ranks.

Then, it's assumed that people are taking 10 on Perceptions vs Disguise. And further it's assumed that they don't even get a check unless they are actively examining them. Top that off with the assumption in the d20 system that most people are 1st level commoners (I can promise nothing about Golarion specifically, but that's because

It worked fine for Victoria, and I think that it's a pretty fair mechanic since not everyone has an easy go of pulling it off. Most of my trans friends are pretty good at it, but some of them are really insecure about it unfortunately (I keep telling her she's pretty though, but y'know how that goes).

I've played a few characters who pass themselves off as different physical genders on a daily basis and I've always just assumed disguise. It's probably the best way to deal with it mechanically. Some might have better methods, but it's worked for me.

I'd advise to be considerate however. I'd definitely try to avoid using transgenderism as a gimmick. A facet of a whole gem, sure, but make sure they're much more than the token *insert thing here* (having a token anybody is generally kind of weak as far as character development goes).


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Crystal Frasier wrote:
thejeff wrote:

But Modern hormone treatments and surgery aren't likely to be common on Golarion. You'll either have people living as transwomen without any changes to their physical body or people who're using magic, either illusion or transformation.

Both perception and disguise skills seem appropriate to the first case. Actually, I partly take that back. Unless they have some reason to be suspicious of you, (or suspicious in general), there's no automatic Perception check. And I'd probably give a circumstance bonus for it being a familiar disguise.

With magic, the standard rules for that type of magic would apply.

Fun fact: My downtime hobby is researching transgender history, and while modern genital reconstruction series didn't emerge until the 1920s, hormone therapy and dozens of techniques for castration have been around for thousands of years. Ovid (the Roman historian) and Heroditus (the Greek historian) both specifically wrote about the Scythians (the original amazons) having a potion they'd brew they described as an "emasculating poison". Many of the first nations in North America had teas and tinctures and brews they'd make to ease PMS, menopause, and to bring peace of mind to people born outside the gende rbinary. Heck, the Roman Gallae had a specific holiday on which new arrivals would castrate themselves (because Roman trans women were hardcore).

Golarion absolutely has access to all these old techniques, and alchemy to boot. Most trans men and women in Golarion can get a huge variety of treatments, depending on where they live and their affluence. And that's even before getting into magic.

Yes, in a setting in which alchemy works and herbalism is almost unimaginably more effective than in the real world (Isn’t there a dried root in Elves of Golarion that heals damage outright? That’s what I call woundwort! (Turns nose up at betony.)), I wouldn’t be bothered by handwaving away the differences from modern therapies, and that’s before taking into consideration what the effects might be of cultures in which femininity and masculinity might not be policed and scrutinized as viciously as they often are on Earth. (“What? She’s just tall.”)

On an unrelated note, I was quite pleased to read “Boar and Rabbit!” I often enjoy reading things from the perspective of the other half – though of course there are many halves, and often halves are the wrong metaphor, depending on how one slices things, but I digress. I’m still not sure what I imagine the Iridian Fold actually is – the celebrants in the first chapter say it’s not a religion, but I wonder if it has a religious component, and how individual members might view it. The same characters say that at some point folks can outgrow the need for the “reminder of the chain,” and I wonder if they meant it literally. Also, are there comparable organizations for women in Casmaron, or elsewhere on Golarion? I would love to see a creative person’s take on unbound spear-sisters taking their exercise together on the plains… Maybe in Holomog? On dinosaur-back? Makes puppy-eyes. Or perhaps another, more dignified form of appeal, once I think of it.

Silver Crusade

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Qunnessaa wrote:
Also, are there comparable organizations for women in Casmaron, or elsewhere on Golarion? I would love to see a creative person’s take on unbound spear-sisters taking their exercise together on the plains… Maybe in Holomog? On dinosaur-back? Makes puppy-eyes. Or perhaps another, more dignified form of appeal, once I think of it.

Oh Dear Lord please let this be a thing.

is now imagining a mirrored or yin-yang counterpart to The Last Herald-Mage Trilogy, with dark-skinned female protagonists and their telepathic velociraptors

The Exchange

I would assume that whatever trans people exist in the game world we will never know it unless their background is somehow important to the story. Or if an over curious PC starts flipping skirts


SRS wrote:

But, alternate sexualities are interesting. One that is often overlooked is the estimated 1% of people who have no sex drive at all. People call this "asexuality" although I am not a fan of the term because asexual creates can reproduce with themselves. Since humans are dimorphic I suppose I can see the term making sense, but it seems odd. I think nonsexual is better, personally.

I disagree. Asexual is not being sexually attracted to any gender. Nonsexual relegates asexuals like me into being objects, not people.

Quote:
One of my hypotheses is that nonsexual people are responsible, in part at least, for a lot of the religious prohibitions regarding sexual appetite. If someone has no sex drive it's not as difficult to look negatively upon what seems like an unhealthy appetite, particularly given all the fighting, jealousy, insecurity, and such that can accompany it. Creating celibacy regimes and so on seems par for the course for someone who is nonsexual.

Yeah - no. From my side of the fence that makes about as much sense as banning coffee shops from existing because I disike coffee. I can't understand what coffee-drinkers see in it, but I can see that they do like it, so why should I get in the way of something they enjoy?

I'd theorise that the prohibitions arise from jealousy and a desire to control. (As in: 'I'm not going to be cuckolded into raising another man's children', and 'If I can't have that person in that way, then no-one else should be able to either.')

I could see that attitude becoming more prevalent in Cheliax, but most of Golarion seems to be more live and let live (which I like.)


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This really is the worst discussion thread.


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Since gay and lesbian human beings have existed since humanity started to record it's history over two thousand years ago I am under absolutely no illusions about gay/lesbian humans (or other races for that matter) existing on Golarion or elsewhere in the Pathfinder setting.

Furthermore, I applaud Paizo Publishing for having the gumption and awesomeness to finally take a stand and give equal representation to people of all sexual preferences! I don't know if Wizards of the Coast ever had the courage to do this but Paizo sure has it IN SPADES!

I have two male friends who are gay and one female friend who is lesbian and my girlfriend herself is bi and I just find this approach Paizo is doing to be some complete awesome. For the sake of my friends and humanity everywhere, thank you Paizo!

Silver Crusade

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RJGrady wrote:
This really is the worst discussion thread.

It's honestly one of my favorites on these boards.

Yes, it's been a painful read at times. Infuriatingly so. Yes, it does get dragged down into needless fighting at points. And yes, it has been a target for trolls and homophobic threadcraps.

But when it's good...it's good.

It's been educational, inspirational, entertaining, and comforting, sometimes by turns and sometimes at once. Hell, it's been productive.

It's a big part of why many may feel protective of this thread. It may not always be the best, but I can't help but feel this thread has done much more good than harm, taken as a whole.

At the very least, I know I learned some things from this thread. And while I'd hesitate to directly credit it with some personal growth over the past few years....I think some of it might be traced back here.

I think I rather love this thread a bit, even if it doesn't always love you back. :)


It is a difficult discussion to have, anywhere, but most of the people here are handling themselves above reproach.

Shadow Lodge

Mikaze wrote:
Yes, it does get dragged down into needless fighting at points. And yes, it has been a target for trolls and homophobic threadcraps.

Let's not pretend that the homophobic responses are the only ones that are essentially trolls and threadcraps. Especially over the past few pages .

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Yes, it does get dragged down into needless fighting at points. And yes, it has been a target for trolls and homophobic threadcraps.
Let's not pretend that the homophobic responses are the only ones that are essentially trolls and threadcraps. Especially over the past few pages .

Strong words from someone who contributes so much to the conversation.

Shadow Lodge

Well, when I get accused of being a homophobic bigot for saying that I accept homosexuals, I don't see much need to contribute much more to the conversation.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:
Well, when I get accused of being a homophobic bigot for saying that I accept homosexuals, I don't see much need to contribute much more to the conversation.

Really, one could expect a thicker skin from you ;)


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Mikaze wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
This really is the worst discussion thread.

It's honestly one of my favorites on these boards.

Yes, it's been a painful read at times. Infuriatingly so. Yes, it does get dragged down into needless fighting at points. And yes, it has been a target for trolls and homophobic threadcraps.

But when it's good...it's good.

It's been educational, inspirational, entertaining, and comforting, sometimes by turns and sometimes at once. Hell, it's been productive.

It's a big part of why many may feel protective of this thread. It may not always be the best, but I can't help but feel this thread has done much more good than harm, taken as a whole.

At the very least, I know I learned some things from this thread. And while I'd hesitate to directly credit it with some personal growth over the past few years....I think some of it might be traced back here.

I think I rather love this thread a bit, even if it doesn't always love you back. :)

True Story: reading this thread has given me several ideas for my own fantasy setting, and inspired the creation of a novel new race.

Silver Crusade

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Kthulhu wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Yes, it does get dragged down into needless fighting at points. And yes, it has been a target for trolls and homophobic threadcraps.
Let's not pretend that the homophobic responses are the only ones that are essentially trolls and threadcraps. Especially over the past few pages .

See: "Needless fighting"

MMCJawa wrote:
True Story: reading this thread has given me several ideas for my own fantasy setting, and inspired the creation of a novel new race.

interest piqued :)

Shadow Lodge

Gorbacz wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Yes, it does get dragged down into needless fighting at points. And yes, it has been a target for trolls and homophobic threadcraps.
Let's not pretend that the homophobic responses are the only ones that are essentially trolls and threadcraps. Especially over the past few pages .
Strong words from someone who contributes so much to the conversation.

Do we really want to go down the road of "If you haven't contributed X number of posts to this thread, your opinion is not needed, nor desired. GTFO!"

Shadow Lodge

Gorbacz wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Well, when I get accused of being a homophobic bigot for saying that I accept homosexuals, I don't see much need to contribute much more to the conversation.
Really, one could expect a thicker skin from you ;)

We'll just say she hit one of my pet peeves.


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MMCJawa wrote:


True Story: reading this thread has given me several ideas for my own fantasy setting, and inspired the creation of a novel new race.

Same. When I was overhauling my homebrew pantheon earlier this year, I really took to heart some of the conversations that has been had in this thread and a few others. The conversation has also opened my eyes up to some of the dumber cliches that I wasn't even aware I was including in my writing, AND my every day language and posture.

Overall, I think this board as a whole has been a very positive experience for me since I joined almost two years ago :)

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