OK, so in Korsova, there's a bunch of imps that escape from the magical academy. Cool. The pseudodragon population, it is claimed, keeps the imps from getting out of control.
Okay then.
Let's take a look at the numbers here:
Imps have DR 5/cold iron or good. A pseudodragon can do a maximum of 1d3-2 damage in a single attack. That is to say, 1 point, which will be promptly ignored by the imp's DR. Pseudodragons are poisonous though! ...except that it's an injury poison, which means if DR isn't overcome, then the poison doesn't get into the system.
And imps are immune to poisons anyway.
So, why the hell (pun intended) haven't the imps wiped the pseudodragons out and colonized Korsova to their heart's content? Are these cold iron pseudodragons?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Do the psuedodragons count as good for purposes of overcoming DR? I seem to recall them (with no factual data to back me up) being good creatures...
Sean Mahoney
Look at it from the dolphin vs. shark perspective, or just make a leap of faith.
If you can’t get passed the suspension of disbelief, well, nothing says they have to be exactly like normal statted psuedodragons. Maybe as a racial enemy they automatically bypass DR?
This is an entire society of pseudodragons. Sure, most of them will be the way the Monster Manual describes them, just like most humans in Golarion will be first-level commoners. Nonetheless, they're going to have guards and spellcasters and what-have-you just like in any other society.
This is an entire society of pseudodragons. Sure, most of them will be the way the Monster Manual describes them, just like most humans in Golarion will be first-level commoners. Nonetheless, they're going to have guards and spellcasters and what-have-you just like in any other society.
Now, that's an answer I like! Little pseudodragon-paladins, armed with silver-tipped tail-blades... and, of course, the dark imp champions in their burnished iron armor, goading hellknights into swatting at the pesky little dragons...
Creative Director
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It's pretty obvious that an imp vs. a pseudodragon would and could pretty much have only one outcome. A pseudodragon can't hurt an imp, after all, even on a critical hit, and even if he DID, the imp would just heal that damage in a few rounds.
This is a case where what makes for a cool visual scene or bit of flavor trumps the rules, to be honest. If you need a rules reason why the pseudodragons can keep the imps in control, the best reason is that the pseudodragons outnumber the imps.
Or maybe I'll just have to come up with a new monster for the Korvosan pseudodragon some day so that they'll be able to handle those imps better.
Or maybe I'll just have to come up with a new monster for the Korvosan pseudodragon some day so that they'll be able to handle those imps better.
Or we can do it ourselves.
Crazy talk! Next we’ll have a nation of blink dogs or something…
It's pretty obvious that an imp vs. a pseudodragon would and could pretty much have only one outcome. A pseudodragon can't hurt an imp, after all, even on a critical hit, and even if he DID, the imp would just heal that damage in a few rounds.
This is a case where what makes for a cool visual scene or bit of flavor trumps the rules, to be honest. If you need a rules reason why the pseudodragons can keep the imps in control, the best reason is that the pseudodragons outnumber the imps.
Or maybe I'll just have to come up with a new monster for the Korvosan pseudodragon some day so that they'll be able to handle those imps better.
Please do.
You could just give them the celestial creature template (no CR change to a 2 HD creature) and rule that their natural attacks are then good aligned...
As far as backstory, perhaps they are the descendants of a group that was part of the guardianship of the pyramid containing the Fangs of Kazavon.
My thoughts mechanically? Instead of poison, the tail stings of Korsovan pseudodragons secrete holy water.
This is a case where what makes for a cool visual scene or bit of flavor trumps the rules, to be honest. If you need a rules reason why the pseudodragons can keep the imps in control, the best reason is that the pseudodragons outnumber the imps.
Why was such a cool visual scene that can't happen in the game so important? Would it have been too difficult to choose creatures more evenly matched or add a sentence or three explaining how such an unbalanced dynamic worked out?
I found this to be one of the few things in pf7 that pushed me out of the 'hey, this is very good stuff' rush that I got from reading through it.
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This is a case where suspension of disbelief trumps rules, just like how the Savage Tide adventure path had at one point militia running off Vrocks and Flesh Golems even though they were utterly outclassed.
Besides, imps can't know for certain that the Pseudodragons can't hurt them. If I was an imp (known for cowardice), and two or three angry-looking pseudodragons were flying toward me, I'd turn invisible and run like hell (no pun intended). Maybe they're sorcerers (they are dragons, after all). Maybe it's the shark-dolphin principle. But I'd bet that its impish cowardice in the face of a foe who can pierce their invisibility.
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Creative Director
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Who wrote this adventure? Nic Logue.
Who has access to the 4E rules? Nic Logue.
Who knows what the 4E mechanics for imps and pseudodragons look like?I'm just saying...
Actually, it was Mike McArtor and myself who came up with the imps vs. pseudodragons theme for Korvosa, after Mike came up with the idea for an imp infestation and we were trying to come up with other types of creatures that live in the Shingles. The idea of periodic imp/pseudodragon battles in the sky struck me as particularly memorable, so that was that.
Maybe a lot of those pseudodragons use oversized swords to fight the imps?
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Pseudodragons have 3 important advantages when it comes to battling imps: speed, telepathy, and sheer numbers.
Speed: Pseudodragons have fly speed 60 vs. an imp's fly speed of 50, so they can keep out of melee range of an imp fairly easily.
Telepathy: Pseudodragons can communicate with other creatures using telepathy. A favorite tactic of individual pseudodragons is to sing annoying songs into an imp's head while waiting for reinforcements to arrive.
Swarm Tactics: This is a quick mock-up, I didn't have access to a "swarm" template so I did my best guess of how to apply it based on comparing some existing swarms to their base creatures. As far as I remember, swarm damage bypasses DR.
PSEUDODRAGON SWARM (CR 5?)
NG Tiny dragon (swarm)
Init +2; Senses blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Listen +9, Spot +9
Language can vocalize animal noises; telepathy 60 ft.
AC 18, touch 14, flat-footed 16 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural)
hp 60 (8 HD)
Immune paralysis, sleep
SR 19
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +7
Speed 15 ft., fly 60 ft. (good)
Melee swarm (3d6 plus poison)
Base Atk +8; Grp —
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (with tail)
Abilities Str 6, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
Feats Alertness, Weapon Finesse, Ability Focus (poison)
Skills Diplomacy +2, Hide +20 (+24 in forests or overgrown areas), Listen +9, Search +6, Sense Motive +7, Spot +9, Survival +1 (+3 following tracks)
Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 16, initial damage sleep for 1 minute, secondary damage sleep for 1d3 hours. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +2 racial bonus and the benefit of the ability focus feat.
Blindsense (Ex): A pseudodragon swarm can locate creatures within 60 feet by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibration and other environmental clues). Opponents the pseudodragon swarm can’t actually see still have total concealment against the pseudodragon swarm.
Telepathy (Su): Pseudodragon swarms can communicate telepathically with creatures that speak Common or Sylvan, provided they are within 60 feet. Individual members of the swarm can transmit individual messages, or they can communicate together as a chorus.
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OK! I'm convinced! :)
The best way to combat the rules when they start pushing around the flavor is to invent more rules!
SO!
One of the upcoming blogs will reveal the secrets on how the pseudodragons of Korvosa can stand up to those mean imps. BONUS FLAVOR! BONUS CRUNCH! ONLY ON PAIZO.COM!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I heard not to mess with them Korvosa pseudo dragons. They sport silver grills.
True, but the Suedeodragons are nice and soft...
and as others have pointed out, pseudodragons with class levels (I've always wanted to play a pseudodragon psion) or funky templates could be guards. Or maybe that's part of the improved familiar bit "I'll be your familiar, Mr. Sorcerer, if you proceed to blast the snot out of imps for me."
OK! I'm convinced! :)
The best way to combat the rules when they start pushing around the flavor is to invent more rules!
SO!
One of the upcoming blogs will reveal the secrets on how the pseudodragons of Korvosa can stand up to those mean imps. BONUS FLAVOR! BONUS CRUNCH! ONLY ON PAIZO.COM!
"Ladies and Gentleman, may I present Dr. James Jacobs..."
::roar of applause::
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OK! I'm convinced! :) The best way to combat the rules when they start pushing around the flavor is to invent more rules! SO! One of the upcoming blogs will reveal the secrets on how the pseudodragons of Korvosa can stand up to those mean imps. BONUS FLAVOR! BONUS CRUNCH! ONLY ON PAIZO.COM!
Lol.. I think James has finally snapped. :)
Well, there is a referance in Guide to Korvosa about, how once or twice a year, wild migrating pseudodragons fly over Korvosa and their tamed city dwelling cousins fly up to greet them.
It could be that the Wild pseudodragons are the ones found in the MM and the City pseudodragons are a sub-species that have developed some unique abilities. Most likely due to living in such close proximity with Imps.
My GM was just about to post about this when we saw we were beaten to it....
We have a pseudodragon PC (cleric) because we did find the image compelling, but of course that puts even more stress on its complete impossibility.
Please do post a fix. This is too big an issue to just brush aside as flavor.
Mary
The best way to combat the rules when they start pushing around the flavor is to invent more rules!
A good design philosophy to have. And also, keep that wacky map hating Mr. Logue in check! :P
The best way to combat the rules when they start pushing around the flavor is to invent more rules!
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the real reason for the D&D rules bloat: Smart-aleks looking at everything and checking that the rules aren't broken. :P
But I'll tell you a secret about the impseudodragon thing:
Those little dragons regularly help old women across the streat. If that doesn't cause your natural attacks to be good aligned, nothing does!
This is too big an issue to just brush aside as flavor.
Please tell me you're kidding...
Contributor
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OK! I'm convinced! :)
The best way to combat the rules when they start pushing around the flavor is to invent more rules!
SO!
One of the upcoming blogs will reveal the secrets on how the pseudodragons of Korvosa can stand up to those mean imps. BONUS FLAVOR! BONUS CRUNCH! ONLY ON PAIZO.COM!
Or...
Alternatively...
We could take a quote from those awesome and wacky guys at MST3K and apply it to this situation:
"If you're wondering how he eats & breathes,
And other science facts (La La La!)
Then repeat to yourself, 'Its just a show,
I should really just relax'
For Mystery Science Theater 3000"
Becomes...
"If you're wondering how they beat the imps,
And other rulesy facts (La La La!)
Then repeat to yourself, 'Its just a game,
I should really just relax]'
For Curse of the Crimson Throne Adventures"
This is too big an issue to just brush aside as flavor.Please tell me you're kidding...
How do your players react when you describe something that flatly makes no sense?
I tend to play and GM with groups of tastes similar to mine, and I know that the first few times, the players will lean forward and go, "That seems to make no sense, there must be something interesting here" and pile into it. But after a few tries, if they find that the answer is, "It makes no sense, don't pay attention" they...stop paying attention. Table-talk starts up, clues start to be missed, in-character conversation dries up--because really, if the world makes no sense, why bother? Just fight and loot.
CotCT #1 apparently has at least two of these, and my GM is cursing every time he reads it. It's a big deal for us. Call us anal-retentive if you like, but we really need things to make sense or the game just isn't as much fun.
We'd just house-rule it, but I think us anal-retentive logic freaks do need to speak up occasionally, just to remind Paizo that there is a market for modules that make sense.
(And in this case, I'm playing a pseudodragon. I think it's a fair bet that the question will come up.)
Mary
I still prefer the celestial pseudodragons of Korvosa, empowered by divine fiat!
How do your players react when you describe something that flatly makes no sense?
They love it... and most of them realize that this is just a game and not "too big an issue"
This situation gives GM's an opportunity to put a little of their own creativity into the setting and come up with an explanation as they see fit. Or just shrug their shoulders and move on - to more important things.
Just off the top of my head with no real thought - the Guide to Korvosa mentions in more than one locale that the pseudodragons occasionally fly down and steal a shiny bauble. What if this is actually silver items (like dinnerware) that they are using as makeshift lances to battle the imps???
How do your players react when you describe something that flatly makes no sense?They love it... and most of them realize that this is just a game and not "too big an issue"
Okay, just a drastic play style difference, then. We save "no big deal" for video games and movies; gaming is more fun specifically because it can offer so much more.
You could give the pdrags silver weapons, but the imps still win. More hit dice, better to-hit, higher AC, poison, and fast healing. It might work if there are massively more pdrags than there are imps. I do like the silver-spoon image.
Certainly the GM can always house-rule this, but what we found with RotRL is that it's a real pain to house-rule stuff in module 1 and then have it contradicted repeatedly in 2-6. That's why it would be nice to have an "official" fix. I house-ruled what turned out to be a major point in RotRL #2 and had trouble with almost every subsequent module because I'd guessed opposite of Paizo. Rather not do that again.
Mary
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Telepathy: Pseudodragons can communicate with other creatures using telepathy. A favorite tactic of individual pseudodragons is to sing annoying songs into an imp's head while waiting for reinforcements to arrive.
There are a ton of clever ideas in this thread already, but this one above is one of my particular favourites thus far. It really fits a more classical pseudodragon's personality. (Not to stereo-type. . .) Imagine a half-dozen off-key songs ringing in someone head.
I think the OP's original observation will inspire some of the uber strategists out there. C'mon guys, suppose you are in charge of pseudodragon tactics in Korvosa, you're outgunned: how are you going to win this one?
Not to brag but my people have been taking down giants for generations. Stronger doesn't always equate victory.
OK! I'm convinced! :)
The best way to combat the rules when they start pushing around the flavor is to invent more rules!
SO!
One of the upcoming blogs will reveal the secrets on how the pseudodragons of Korvosa can stand up to those mean imps. BONUS FLAVOR! BONUS CRUNCH! ONLY ON PAIZO.COM!
sounds like a plan *cracks whip* get to it.
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Not to step on James crunch-tastic toes, but there's a simple fix -- architecture!
Within a few days of the notorious imp breakout, the Korvosan pseudodragons realized that attacking the imps directly was futile -- their poison was ineffective and even in mobs it was impossible to cause lasting damage. One enterprising clutch of dragons came up with a solution -- impaling grappled imps on the silver spires at the local temple (shrine?) of Desna. Soon the spires were laden with rotting imp corpses, and the well-to-do began erecting their own silver-plated "Imp Spikes" on estate walls and parapets for the p-dragons to use in their ongoing struggle. In another of his largely symbolic gestures, the King declared it an act of high treason to steal the silver-plated spikes. Anyone caught dealing in pilfered silver flakes is condemned to death. To date, the method of execution — being lashed together with dozens of imp corpses and tossed into the puzzle-shark infested water of the bay -- has proved a highly effective deterrent.
A one player to one GM dynamic is almost certainly going to be significantly different to anybody else's experience.
A single player has no distractions, no social interaction with other players, and will be much more focused on small details. There is less willingness to suspend disbelief for the sake of others. There will also be a much more democratic distribution of authority between player and GM. Mary, your stories have said as much.
You have wonderful insights and creative solutions, but your experiences will necessarily be, to some degree alien, to traditional "4 to 5 players to a GM" groups.
I hope that doesn't discourage you from posting your comments and fixes.
Okay, just a drastic play style difference, then.
Different strokes for different folks. I see this as an opportunity to add some of my own creativity and flavor into a pusblished module and setting. After 26 years of DM'ing, continuity issues are things I can handle in my sleep, and my players will never know the difference. Regardless, their are plenty of good alternatives in this thread.
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Okay, just a drastic play style difference, then.Different strokes for different folks. I see this as an opportunity to add some of my own creativity and flavor into a pusblished module and setting.
There are many on this forum that will say "I buy the Pathfinder Adventure Paths so I don't have to make up my own stuff." Whether it's lack of time or not being very good at it, there are those people that don't want to fix things themselves or have the experience to recognize problems. Others just need things spelled out for them. :)
A good example would be a certain boss fight in a certain past issue that would have go better for many groups if their DMs didn't go by the book and just inserted a side quest or two before letting them get anywhere near boss building. But since many DMs have their own ideas about giving out XP, I don't think side quests would have helped either.
Like you said, different strokes.
Personally, if I wonder why said Character would have said knowledge to know that statistically a Pseudodragon can't take on an Imp in a fight and why said character knows so much about two monsters he/she has never likely encountered. I smell metagaming.
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CotCT #1 apparently has at least two of these, and my GM is cursing every time he reads it. It's a big deal for us. Call us anal-retentive if you like, but we really need things to make sense or the game just isn't as much fun.
I'd love to hear about these two issues. We can't fix problems if we don't know where they are.
Personally, if I wonder why said Character would have said knowledge to know that statistically a Pseudodragon can't take on an Imp in a fight and why said character knows so much about two monsters he/she has never likely encountered. I smell metagaming.
Indeed. One of my favorite answers as a DM is "your character doesn't know, how would you like to go about investigating that?"
If they want to spend the time and effort finding out why and how the imps and pseudodragons get down, then I'll give them something worthwhile. If not, we're on to more important things.
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Personally, if I wonder why said Character would have said knowledge to know that statistically a Pseudodragon can't take on an Imp in a fight and why said character knows so much about two monsters he/she has never likely encountered. I smell metagaming.Indeed. One of my favorite answers as a DM is "your character doesn't know, how would you like to go about investigating that?"
If they want to spend the time and effort finding out why and how the imps and pseudodragons get down, then I'll give them something worthwhile. If not, we're on to more important things.
I think you two might have missed the bit where Mary said she is playing a pseudodragon PC – in which case knowing the relative strengths of pseudodragons and their mortal enemies the imps, and how the little drakes defeat them is not metagaming at all – it’s essential to the character.
Whether or not Mary and her DM can come up with a fix for this is another issue. Certainly there are some truly excellent solutions in this thread, but as Mary stated, she would prefer not to create a home fix if there is an official solution which may play a significant role in a later adventure.
As someone who has been caught out on things like this a time or two before (particularly in running the Shackled City AP from the magazines), I can symapthise with this.
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Indeed. One of my favorite answers as a DM is "your character doesn't know, how would you like to go about investigating that?"
If they want to spend the time and effort finding out why and how the imps and pseudodragons get down, then I'll give them something worthwhile. If not, we're on to more important things.
And of course, this side-trek gives the DM a week to think up an answer!
I think you two might have missed the bit where Mary said she is playing a pseudodragon PC – in which case knowing the relative strengths of pseudodragons and their mortal enemies the imps, and how the little drakes defeat them is not metagaming at all – it’s essential to the character.
Didn't miss it, but you can hardly expect Paizo to include a sidebar in the adventure for those wishing to play pseudodragon characters. While it sounds like a fun idea (and yes, I have ran a player with a pseudodragon character before), it is a bit out of the ordinary and probably not something the game designers thought of.
I think this falls into the area of GM - player responsibility to come up with a solution that fits their individual campaign. If James and Co. can give us their answer, great, but I'm just saying that it's not a campaign-stopping logic pit that can't be overcome.