On rec.games.frp.dnd, someone expressed a lack of interest in Pathfinder. When I asked why that was, another person responded with this post.
I think he makes some valid points. His perspective is a bit of a downer, but I think it's a valuable "outside" look at things, since we're almost all Pathfinder fanboys here. :)
Speaking personally, I think it's probably a poor marketing decision on their part.
1. If the supplements are as good as I expect (not sarcastic here) and as large, a typical group won't get through a complete issue in one month (I understand a lot of people don't get through the *Dungeon*- sized ones in one month). This means they're going to have a backlog where they've got issues out (almost) nobody's ready for.
2. If each arc is about six issues, that's six months of 'the same thing' every month. If a group isn't interested, that's six months of not buying the material... which means six months for it to drop off their radar.
3. If everything in an issue is to do with a single campaign, there will probably be a *single* copy purchased per group that's using it. While 'one copy per group' is a pretty common result for many gaming books, with Dungeon it's at least possible for multiple DMs in a group to use the same issue, running different adventures.
4. As a result of the first three, I suspect what may happen is that they get part way into it, find that sales aren't what they wanted (which might be okay -- they're planning to charge more than twice what they did for the magazine -- but let's assume it isn't) and decide to come up with another idea... and drop the line.
All in all, I suspect this isn't going to work so well for them. I like the idea, and I'm interested in their planned delivery methods (paper and electronic, and IIRC if you subscribe to the paper you get the electronic free, faster). I think that part's great.
I can think of a couple of options that might work better for them.
1. Get at least two adventure paths going, then alternate months. If it's going to take 2-3 months to get through the content of a single issue, give the customers that time. This means less backlog, and it gives the opportunity for Paizo to keep people not running the 'current adventure' interested in the product line because they might be running one of the alternates.
In my last group at one point we had three DMs, playing one session weekly. We'd get together (just about) every week, and at times we'd be three weeks between each campaign. More often we'd have two DMs active (swapping weeks) and the third on hiatus (either recovering from burnout or working up the next scenario), with some flexibility.
. Jeff's really busy this week; he can play but can't prep, so either Ed does a couple in a row or I run a one-off.
. Ed's at a climax of the adventure, left us at a cliffhanger last week (we know we're about to charge into the Valley of Death) and we don't want the interruption, so he gets next week too.Anyway. If you've got more than one active DM, you can swap off weeks. Or if you play more frequently (I miss university) you might keep up to the 'once a week average' in each.
In either case, you can keep customer interest in the product line because there is new content for each adventure on a regular basis.
2. Dump the Dungeon name and continue producing much the same magazine. Perhaps not the same column names (those might have trademark issues) but each month, a collection of smallish adventures.
Of course, there may have been an noncompetition clause in the contract with WotC -- Paizo may not be *allowed* to do this, which is why they went with the 'big adventure supplement on a regular basis' model.
Also, while a Dungeon-model periodical using adventures provided by outside sources may reduce the in-house design staff, it can lead to inconsistent quality, depending on the submissions received. OTOH, having content coming from the readers can increase their interest in the periodical (Jay, Jasin, Ron... care to comment? ISTR that each of you has been published in Dragon). This can also increase the variety of the content.
What are your thoughts about his points?
Naturally, I'd be particularly interested in Paizo folks' thoughts on this, but it's perfectly understandable if the choose not to share much detail of their business plans of a web forum.
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==========1. a typical group won't get through a complete issue in one month / means they're going to have a backlog where they've got issues out (almost) nobody's ready for.
Oh course they will. Shoot, people are just starting the Savage Tide in a great many cases. They make it sound like an overabundance of ready to go adventures is bad.
2. If each arc is about six issues, that's six months of 'the same thing' every month.
I had this problem with STAP, actually. Luckily there were plenty of other goodies in Dungeon to make up for it, and Pathfinder looks to be the same way (maybe not adventure wise, but world backfill goodies and maybe eventually a few sidetreks I'd bet).
3. If everything in an issue is to do with a single campaign, there will probably be a *single* copy purchased per group that's using it. While 'one copy per group' is a pretty common result for many gaming books, with Dungeon it's at least possible for multiple DMs in a group to use the same issue, running different adventures.
I've run the same adventure before four times with a different DM each time. *Not* the same game. Not to mention there's no reason you have to use it exactly as written. Why not just buy a copy to gut the goodies and not play the adventure at all?
4. they get part way into it, and drop the line.
I'd be stunned if this happened. Sure they may end the line, but Paizo strikes me as a very "finish what you started" crew. Even if they move away from Pathfinder, I doubt they'd kill it outright in the middle of an AP, or kick out two half-arsed finish-up titles.
I'm as quick to criticize Paizo and I am to praise them, but is there any new project in the history of humanity, ever, that didn't have a Doom n' Gloom crew behind it with signs and pitchforks? Humanity loves an "I told you so!"
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I think most of the comments quted in the OP are fairly bogus. I was a die-hard supporter of Dungeon under Paizo - and hardly ever played any of the adventures. I used to get it simply because I liked reading them, and used them as general inspiration for my own. I doubt I'll play too many of the Pathfinder APs either, but I'm still pretty excited just to get my hands on it.
With any adventure, it is quite likely that only a fraction of the group will actually purchase the books, and is the big problem with being an adventure publisher. This doesn't appear to have been a problem for Dungeon, however - so long as enough DMs buy, it should be OK. And no one much else is producing APs - certainly not WotC with its current output (though who knows with the electronic version of Dungeon) - and certainly no one else has the experience to pull it off as well as Paizo.
I think the idea of alternating APs on different months is a great way to confuse readership. A Dungeon-style mag would be good, but Gamemastery is intended to plug that particular gap (though at greater expense, it must be said). Also, I think that by developing a world, instead of pumping out generic modules, Paizo are cleverly developing a cohesive product line that will have broad appeal - but instead of buying a campaign setting, you get great adventures. And the quality issue is pretty daft - the authors they are using have proven their abilities time and again in Dungeon, and the editirs are likewise very experienced.
I do worry if two APs a year is too many. But sod it - they'll be great, and I'll buy them anyway. As the poster above says, it is always a risk to try somthing different. But Paizo have my support, for what it is worth.
Creative Director
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Those points were not ignored when we decided to go the Pathfinder route. And there's no way to know if 2 Adventure Paths a year is too much, or if folks won't keep buying them. Things are looking VERY promising right now, though. And if it turns out readers want fewer APs, we can easily adjust things to do one a year.
One thing this poster doesn't take into account are the numbers of readers who read dungeon and NEVER ran an adventure from it. I suspect that's a fair sized amount. People who either read the magazine for inspiration, pulling maps or single stats or ideas out here and there for their own games, AND people who just read adventures; they can be fun to read just as fiction.
And on top of that, we're aiming to include additional material in Pathfinder beyond the adventures of course, to give readers even more reasons to pick up volumes even when they aren't running that particular campaign.
And finally, a lot of D&D players are collectors. They may not run Curse of the Crimson Throne when it first comes out, but that certainly doesn't mean that they won't EVER run it.
Anyway, yeah, he raises some valid points, but based on the ravenous interest we've seen in Pathfinder so far, and on the ravenous interest in Dungeon's Adventure Paths... I'm feeling pretty positive about it all.
S$&% I just wrote like 1000 word reply and my toddler disintegrated it with one stomp on the keyboard.
What did I say? Here is a brief of my annihilated treatise:
Biggest problem in my know nothing opinion:
Gamemastery/Pathfinder brand recognition. This is not D&D, and it's not Star Wars the rpg. Hence Macdonald's indoctrination of young children. blah blah blah.
Not a problem:
-6 month APs that go to 15th level (learned from those of us who hated going epic). GOOD!
-IN FACT, because this is a book, some guys may, in two years, decide to buy the whole RotRL AP. This is less likely with a mag where some issues will not be available and will never be reprinted. Yadda yadda 4th ed useless speculation followed.
-only one AP, DM burns out. Come on, it's not like we can't find another campaign to play to rest our DMs. How much gaming material do we own? LOL, thinks of the piles of boxes filled with gaming s%@+.
[stops and cuts what he has written in case the little button presser attacks again]
Obviously(?) Paizo has agreed to a non-competition clause. A few of us have mentioned this on threads here... I think. Paizo has not denied this but we know Wizards would have been stupid to leave this out. Surely it is part of all such agreements. I remember one of the Paizo staff saying that start up cost of a magazine is the biggest problem so they don't want to do it. Come on! I think that they would have been in a better position than anyone to start a new mag and they know it. Contacts, advertisers, yadda yadda. (Okay, not being lcensed to print D&D means their mag lacks brand recognition... duly noted)
So they are possibly only allowed to issue books so that's what they are doing, AND hence they kept emphasizing that it is a book (even though it is like a mag). It's a book! It's a book. They said.
I said some other stuff, but who cares anyway. Let's just do anything we can to help them get their product recognition. Namely, talk about it on other threads. Mention it to the guy checking out Wizards stuff in the store.... (Ed)Paizo will do their part: advertise and produce the best APs ever written.
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No kidding, eh?
I really doubt I'm going to be playing any AP at all (maybe Curse.. I like urban modules), and haven't (and will not be playing any of the Dungeon AP's). I'm still going to subscribe to them, just because I enjoy reading the adventures.
I expect I'm not the only one.
AND people who just read adventures; they can be fun to read just as fiction.
This group includes me. Every D&D hardcover I own, I've read cover to cover at least once.
I never really collected much of Dungeon, I think I have a total of 4-5 issues, and the APs in it never really excited me, but my opinion of Pathfinder is that it keeps looking better and is more and more interesting with each little bit of information made available.
Will I ever run any of the adventures as is? Probably not anytime soon, although I don't discount the possibility of it, or playing in it if I can con one of my friends who I've convinced to get a subscription into trying it as his first DM bit.
However, I do have one concern about Pathfinder, and that's how long Paizo can keep up the good quality.
I mean, if they start things off at a "10", then how long can they keep producing content that can still be classified as a "10"? How long until something slips in that may only rate a "9"?
I have every bit of faith that Paizo will keep the quality up at least until Pathfinder becomes a standard and staple, but I sincerely hope they don't end up getting complacent (like many companies do, no names ;P) and let quality drop to a level where people no longer consider Pathfinder worth the price.
I mean, if they start things off at a "10", then how long can they keep producing content that can still be classified as a "10"?
Around here we call that a "positive problem". :)
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I must admit that when it was announced that Dungeon and Dragon would cease publication and Pathfinder was announced, I was very skeptical about Pathfinder.
First and foremost was the cost. Justifying spending $75 a year on two magazines was hard enough, now I'm being asked to justify $132 (if my math is correct, before shipping) and that's pretty hard to stomach.
Fast-forward to today and I'm still not sure about Pathfinder.
Yes, I believe the content will be top notch and above par, but I'm still leery of the cost. Hopefully I get a large raise at my performance review at the end of the month and that won't be an issue any more, but currently I don't know if I'll continue my subscription after end of Rise of the Rune Lords, or just periodically purchase GameMastery Modules.
My thoughts (for what they are worth)
1. I don't see this as being a problem, only about half of each Pathfinder is set to be the adventure, the rest is background/world info and additional info for the DM. My group plays once a week (normally and I think we would have little trouble getting a 48 page adventure done in 4 sessions.)
2. This could be a problem, some APs might not appeal to a particular DM or group, but since all Pathfinder APs and Game Mastery modules are set in the same world, the half of each months issue that contains the supplemental info is still valuable. This means that even if your not running a particular AP, each Pathfinder expands the Pathfinder world.
3. I don't think this will be any more of a problem with Pathfinder than with Dungeon magazines, maybe even less so, since each issue of Pathfinder expands on the Pathfinder setting. Even if one DM in the group is running the AP another may find it useful just for the supplemental info.
4. This would seem unlikely to me, while Pathfinder may fail (no matter how good it is) stopping it in the middle of a AP would be a very bad business decision on Paizo's part. As a smaller RPG company they can ill afford to upset their loyal fan base. (What happened with Dungeon and Dragon was not something they could control, and I think WotC has/will feel the backlash over that). Paizo has always struck me as being very fan friendly stopping an AP unfinished or putting out sub-par products would seem out of character for them.
Speaking personally, I think it's probably a poor marketing decision on their part.
1. If the supplements are as good as I expect (not sarcastic here) and as large, a typical group won't get through a complete issue in one month (I understand a lot of people don't get through the *Dungeon*- sized ones in one month). This means they're going to have a backlog where they've got issues out (almost) nobody's ready for.
2. If each arc is about six issues, that's six months of 'the same thing' every month. If a group isn't interested, that's six months of not buying the material... which means six months for it to drop off their radar.
3. If everything in an issue is to do with a single campaign, there will probably be a *single* copy purchased per group that's using it. While 'one copy per group' is a pretty common result for many gaming books, with Dungeon it's at least possible for multiple DMs in a group to use the same issue, running different adventures.
4. As a result of the first three, I suspect what may happen is that they get part way into it, find that sales aren't what they wanted (which might be okay -- they're planning to charge more than twice what they did for the magazine -- but let's assume it isn't) and decide to come up with another idea... and drop the line.
All in all, I suspect this isn't going to work so well for them. I like the idea, and I'm interested in their planned delivery methods (paper and electronic, and IIRC if you subscribe to the paper you get the electronic free, faster). I think that part's great.
I can think of a couple of options that might work better for them.
The one thing I think he failed to recognize is Paizos Game Mastery Modules. (Which is kind of sad because the Modules are really fun! My friends and I have completed the Crown of the Kobold King module. Kobolds are so awesome.) Those will offer the small-ish adventures that the players can acquire if they don't happen to like a particular Pathfinder AP. They seem to be well suited for people to pick up on the fly and run a game and not need to dedicate as much time as you would need for an AP.
Personally I think it was a great idea for Paizo to seperate the big adventure paths from the smaller modules. That way people who are more inclined to run smaller faster games can get their modules and be happy campers. And if they see a good AP that they can sink their teeth into, Pathfinder is always there for them to pick up aswell.
4. This would seem unlikely to me, while Pathfinder may fail (no matter how good it is) stopping it in the middle of a AP would be a very bad business decision on Paizo's part. As a smaller RPG company they can ill afford to upset their loyal fan base. (What happened with Dungeon and Dragon was not something they could control, and I think WotC has/will feel the backlash over that). Paizo has always struck me as being very fan friendly stopping an AP unfinished or putting out sub-par products would seem out of character for them.
Not only that, but they made the decision in talks with WotC to extend the license for both Dragon and Dungeon magazines several months beyond the original date the license expired for the express purpose of finishing off the Savage Tide AP.
Which makes it even less likely that they'd end Pathfinder in the middle of an AP.
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I personally am in between game groups, but I still pretty frequently would pick up Dungeon magazines.
Somebody on enworld was talking about pbp games and said something to the effect of "it may be true that running pbp games is difficult, but not as difficult as getting 5 men in their 30's in the same room at the same time to play D&D." I guess I fit THAT niche or whatever...
Like I have a live game hookup right now, but I told the guy I'd love to play but my wife's in her 3rd trimester right now, so it might be a while. And he has kids, so he understands...
Pathfinder is not Dungeon. Pathfinder is adventures, AS WELL AS an entire campaign setting. In a word, with your $125 a year, you are getting two AP's, and a crapload of Campaign Setting information.
Lets see here...
16 page Campaign Player's Guide - Free by PDF x2/year = 32 pages
12 issues of 50 pages of AP and 46 pages of Campaign Setting Info. Thats 600 pages of adventure information and 552 pages of Campaign Setting info.
The Expedition...series from wizards has 224 pages per book for $35. 600 pages of campaign information is over 2 of those books. Call it 2 for the sake of argument. Thats a $70 value in and of itself.
Assuming a typical Campaign Setting book from Wizards is 96 pages, thats over 5 sourcebooks of information. Add in the twp Player's Guides and thats easily 6 Campaign Sourcebooks. At $30 a pop - thats $150 right there.
So for your $125 you get over $220 in content from some authors and designers that are proven winners.
OK yeah so not everyone is going to use Varasia(Sp) as their campaign setting, but I am SURE there will be plenty of information int her eto flush out, or give ideas for whatever campaign the DM runs, whether published or homebrewed. Think about the guy who doesn't have a lot of time to build a world or plan out detailed adventures. Pathfinder gives him (or her) the opportinity to buy one product month to month which gives him everything he needs to run a fantastic adventure. Nope, he doesn't need to go buy the [u]Players Guide to Blahworld[/u], as well as [u]Magic of Blahworld[/u] and [u]The Complete Blahworld Guide to Warriorness[/u]. It's all there.
As for cost. I used to spend a heck of a lot mroe than $125 a year on Warhammer figures and splatbooks and such. $125 for somethingt hat I will enjoy not only this year but for years to come...it's 12 movies folks, and it will keep you entertained for MUCH longer than 24-30 hours.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I wonder, also, how many of the people are there are folks like me who have never read Dungeon or Dragon magazine before (I've seen them, but never bothered to really dig into them because I'm not terribly fond of magazines in general).
I've never run a published adventure from anything before. I'm actually not terribly fond of the idea of a module because I'm more of a free-form DM who likes to make things up as I go, adding sideplots where needed and letting my metaplot work itself out as the campaign progresses. It is quite possible (and I will even go so far as to say it's likely) that I will never run any of the GameMastery Modules or the Pathfinder APs. Yet... I'm a subscriber of both. Why? Because I want to support what I believe is the greatest company in the gaming industry. I want to endorse their product and show off the quality of their works. I want to vote with my wallet and contribute to the success of my favorite gaming materials publisher.
Now, with that said, $200 a year seems like a lot to some people. Yeah, $200 is a significant investment, especially when it comes to gaming materials. I can agree with that. I'm a campaign setting junkie, however. When I see a campaign setting I'm interested in, I can't settle for just getting the main book of Whatever. No no, I gotta have it all. When I got the FRCS, I was hooked on Forgotten Realms. From there, I got the Players' Guide, the Magic of Faerun, the Faiths and Pantheons, the Monsters of Faerun, and the Underdark book. When I got into Ravenloft, I picked up the main book, the Denizens of Darkness, and the Secrets of the Dread Realms. When I saw Iron Kingdoms, I melted. I have bought every single book published in that line to date. Golarian looks to be just as cool and my collection won't be complete without a Pathfinder subscription.
What am I going to do with all the published adventures that I'm receiving with my subscriptions? I'll read them. I'll probably think that they're very cool (I've loved D0, D1, and W1 so far). I will probably seek to cannibalize them and use individual elements from them in future campaigns. Will I ever run them exactly as written? Probably not. Do I still think I'm getting my money's worth? You better believe it.
EDIT: I take that back, I will probably run Seven Swords of Sin exactly as written because I've been dying to do a good dungeon-crawl for a long time and don't really have the time or resources to put a good one together on my own time.
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As for cost. I used to spend a heck of a lot mroe than $125 a year on Warhammer figures and splatbooks and such. $125 for somethingt hat I will enjoy not only this year but for years to come...it's 12 movies folks, and it will keep you entertained for MUCH longer than 24-30 hours.
If you have so much money why don't you cover some subscriptions for people.
Personally, I have to choose something else to give up to keep getting Pathfinder, and movies aren't going to be it, since I rarely buy them anyway (I might buy 1 a year).
I'd like to give up on gasoline for my car, but then I wouldn't be able to get to work.
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Speaking personally, I think it's probably a poor marketing decision on their part.
1. If the supplements are as good as I expect (not sarcastic here) and as large, a typical group won't get through a complete issue in one month (I understand a lot of people don't get through the *Dungeon*- sized ones in one month). This means they're going to have a backlog where they've got issues out (almost) nobody's ready for.
Personally, that is something I am counting on and consider to be a massive plus.
I WANT to have the next issue or two in hand before I ever finish the first one. I don't want there to be a break in the game while I await the next installment.
For example, I ran the Dragonlance Age of Mortals campaign (Key of Destiny, Spectre of Sorrows, Price of Courage). This series took the characters from 1st level to 20th and the most frustrating part? Finishing one of the modules and having to wait 6 months before you could get your hands on the next installment.
So PLEASE, let me have a backlog of issues that will be on hand to run when it gets to be time.
I hope I have several issues of the 2nd AP in my greedy little hands before I ever finish running RotRL.
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First and foremost was the cost. Justifying spending $75 a year on two magazines was hard enough, now I'm being asked to justify $132 (if my math is correct, before shipping) and that's pretty hard to stomach.
you know Keno - thats only 2 books the full price of MM5......with WotC putting out at least a monster book a year, just not buy 2-3 wotc books and you have the full year of pathfinder - perfectly justified and WotC can't entice us into buying books by using their monsters in what has already become my favorite game world...
I appreciate the arguments put forth. I thought about where Dungeon and Dragon have come from. I remember not so long ago the hit or miss nature of Dungeon, and sometimes Dragon was all or nothing as well. However digging through my stack of magazines to old issues of Dungeon (#2 and Road to Danger) and I see how far Paizo has come in terms of production quality, and sheer volume of GOOD material. I am confident I will like what I find in Pathfinder.
When I look at what other quality game companies put out like Privateer Press I am confident that Pathfinder will succeed. If it doesn't then something much bigger has gone wrong with the industry and a lot of companies will be in trouble.
In the meantime I am grateful that that my favorite adventure authors are not out of their jobs wondering where their next paycheck is coming from, I am grateful they are still writing and that they are able to do something they love (I hope)and bring enjoyment, imagination and freaky little goblins to my gaming table.
You are right some people might not buy Pathfinder, but I will.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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My memory of the dungeon/dragon subscription days is that they rarely crept into the top 10 products purchased on the Paizo website (though I am not absolutely certain they would show up there).
However, the current top products are:
1. GameMastery Module W1: Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale (OGL)
Our Price: $12.99
2. GameMastery Module D1: Crown of the Kobold King (OGL)
3. GameMastery Module D0: Hollow's Last Hope (OGL)
4. Pathfinder #1—Rise of the Runelords Chapter 1: "Burnt Offerings" (OGL)
5. Kobold Quarterly 1 PDF
6. Pathfinder: Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide (OGL)
Granted, Dragon and Dungeon were sold in a variety of other outlets, but the above list suggests that so far, the new system is doing well.
And note that one of these products is available as a free pdf (I am assuming that D0 is listed because people are purchasing it and not downloading it free). The fact that people are willing to pay Paizo for products that can obtain freely (and legally for a change) strikes me as fairly significant.
Don't forget about us monster collectors! I've bought whole issues of Dungeon just for the monsters. The last two APs have been really great for new monsters. When I first read the Spire of Long Shadows and turned to all the new Kyuss monsters, I giggled like a school girl. And let's not forget acid beetles, the froghemoth, and on and on.
To me, a large collection of adventures and Dungeon magazines that I have not yet run is an insurance policy. I have no plans on running Pathfinder any time in the future, but it's there when I need it.
My current GH campaign is a patchwork of about 15 Dungeon adventures from recent (Paizo-era mostly) issues.
Prior to that I ran about 5-6 Dungeon magazine adventures total.
So I have a sh*tload of unused material just waiting for me. That gives me comfort, but I'm still pissed off about the magazine being cancelled.
I'm going to side with Keno on this one.
I love Paizo. Their talent and customer service is second to none and I wish there was some way I could support the company more than I do. Unfortunately, Pathfinder is out of my budget in terms of entertainment dollar.
Now, I'm a fellow adventure collector and enjoy reading them just as stories with actually playing them being an added bonus. Even then, though, I can't justify the extra expense that went in to making sure I had good quality paper and square binding and whatever else pumps the price up beyond what I can afford.
I'll support Paizo enough to not try to buy them used on Ebay or something, but I won't be looking at them until I find a good bargain somewhere.
I wonder how hard it will be to get Paizo products at my local library...
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Chief Technical Officer
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Regarding the "noncompete" thing—there isn't one. We're not doing a magazine because launching a magazine is horrifically expensive, and a huge risk.
One of the most important points that the original poster isn't aware of is that we don't need to have magazine-like sales numbers for Pathfinder to succeed—not even close. We *know* we're not going to sell Pathfinder to every former subscriber, much less every former newsstand reader. And we've planned for that.
Pathfinder is a different product, with different goals, and right now, every indication is that we're hitting or exceeding those goals straight out of the gate. There's still the possibility that the interest we're seeing won't hold, but right now, everything looks as good as we hoped it would be—and better, in many ways.
But, you know, have a look at the first Pathfinder and tell us what you think then.
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Regarding the "noncompete" thing—there isn't one. We're not doing a magazine because launching a magazine is horrifically expensive, and a huge risk.
One of the most important points that the original poster isn't aware of is that we don't need to have magazine-like sales numbers for Pathfinder to succeed—not even close. We *know* we're not going to sell Pathfinder to every former subscriber, much less every former newsstand reader. And we've planned for that.
Pathfinder is a different product, with different goals, and right now, every indication is that we're hitting or exceeding those goals straight out of the gate. There's still the possibility that the interest we're seeing won't hold, but right now, everything looks as good as we hoped it would be—and better, in many ways.
But, you know, have a look at the first Pathfinder and tell us what you think then.
My big question: How long until you decide to create a Pathfinder for d20 Modern? I'd love to see a Dresden or X-Files (or combination of the two) approach to modern day ... or perhaps modern day as depicted in Underworld.
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I've concerns as well. The ones mentioned already are importnat: price for each copy, only 1 adventure over 6 months, etc. And, yeah these are admirably addressed in the short term -- but the long term problem I see is that Pathfinder relies on only a select handful of contributors. Now, this may seem like a non-issue considering who these select designers are but as much as I like Logue and Greer, and as much as I love Pett -- they can't keep it up. This is the problem with WotC's published material. Perkins was the best Dungeon adventure writer ever (though many are close) but even he couldn't keep writing the best adventures. Most of the WotC stuff he's done has been substandard.
Dungeon and Dragon were great because they had open soliciting. Now, while that means 99 out of 100 unsolicited adventures are turned down, at least 1 new really good designer pops up, whether it's Willie Walshe's first or Perkins' first or Pett's. Pathfinder will end this. Too much is riding on each Pathfinder to take a chance on an unknown contributor. Consider this, even Logue, a trusted writer for Paizo, didn't get his last, long awaited sequel finished. He says James kept urging him to "get it in" -- James couldn't say "because the bastids at WotC had cancelled the mag" -- yet Logue droped the ball. Moreover, eventually the well of good adventures from these contributors will run dry. Take a look at Dungeon 100's "Notes from past Editors" (or whatever) where Perkins names some of his adventure proposals that were rejected. Pretty soon Logue and Greer and Pett and Noonan, etc. will be at their collective wits end and only have substandard ideas. And that's what Pathfinder will have to publish. For $20 a copy.
I'm rooting for you, though; I'd love to eat my words here. Good Luck Paizo!
-W. E. Ray
My sources inside Paizo tell me that the dial actually goes up to 11.
I mean, if they start things off at a "10", then how long can they keep producing content that can still be classified as a "10"? How long until something slips in that may only rate a "9"?
Dude! You beat me to the punch!!!
Dungeon and Dragon were great because they had open soliciting.We've mentioned before that we're going to have some places for new talent. In fact... we're planning something kind of big on that front. Look for more in the coming weeks.
~grins~ Good! I do not want your slaves, er, authors buring out. Plus, there really should be a way for new talent to at least attempt to break into the buisness.
but as much as I like Logue and Greer, and as much as I love Pett -- they can't keep it up.
....but what if they had backup?
My big question: How long until you decide to create a Pathfinder for d20 Modern? I'd love to see a Dresden or X-Files (or combination of the two) approach to modern day ... or perhaps modern day as depicted in Underworld.
I have so many ideas for something like this it sickens me on a daily basis. I am weaving them all into an Esoterrorists-esque campaign, but would love to adapt them to D20 Modern sometime...of course, I'm pretty swamped with work just now, but maybe in the future!
For the value for the dollar perspective, I think we all got spoiled on how much we got out of that $8 issue of Dungeon every month. Back in 1986 when I picked up the first copy of the magazine, it seemed an incredible value compared to how much modules were costing back then.
That incredible value remained over the years and we all got used to getting major league quality for minor league prices. I think that's probably one of the main reasons that Wizards yanked the license and we all got a reality check in the price Department.
Yes, Pathfinder is not as much of a bargain as Dungeon was, but that's not Paizo's fault. There's no way they could keep up the bargain basement value that Dungeon was in the new, non-magazine, format.
I think Paizo has built a lot of "brand" loyalty with the incredible job they've done with Dungeon and I don't think Pathfinder is going to disappoint.
I've concerns as well. The ones mentioned already are importnat: price for each copy, only 1 adventure over 6 months, etc. And, yeah these are admirably addressed in the short term -- but the long term problem I see is that Pathfinder relies on only a select handful of contributors. Now, this may seem like a non-issue considering who these select designers are but as much as I like Logue and Greer, and as much as I love Pett -- they can't keep it up. This is the problem with WotC's published material. Perkins was the best Dungeon adventure writer ever (though many are close) but even he couldn't keep writing the best adventures. Most of the WotC stuff he's done has been substandard.
Dungeon and Dragon were great because they had open soliciting. Now, while that means 99 out of 100 unsolicited adventures are turned down, at least 1 new really good designer pops up, whether it's Willie Walshe's first or Perkins' first or Pett's. Pathfinder will end this. Too much is riding on each Pathfinder to take a chance on an unknown contributor. Consider this, even Logue, a trusted writer for Paizo, didn't get his last, long awaited sequel finished. He says James kept urging him to "get it in" -- James couldn't say "because the bastids at WotC had cancelled the mag" -- yet Logue droped the ball. Moreover, eventually the well of good adventures from these contributors will run dry. Take a look at Dungeon 100's "Notes from past Editors" (or whatever) where Perkins names some of his adventure proposals that were rejected. Pretty soon Logue and Greer and Pett and Noonan, etc. will be at their collective wits end and only have substandard ideas. And that's what Pathfinder will have to publish. For $20 a copy.
I'm rooting for you, though; I'd love to eat my words here. Good Luck Paizo!
-W. E. Ray
Ha! This you need not fear! For one, there are a lot of trusted contributors working on Pathfinder, more than you think, and enough to give us all a break now and then. As to substandard ideas, this you need not worry about either. I find the more I write the MORE great ideas come to me. The kettle is always boiling so to speak.
Mostly me not getting "Lightning Curse" done on time was because it kept getting backed down my priority list by new projects that were commissioned from me on an aggressive schedule. Also, I wanted it to be perfect, so I kept retooling it.
As far as open soliciting, I'm confident Paizo is working at opening the door to Pathfinder soon. I wouldn't be surprised if we resurrected this thread in three years and a whole new slew of names were topping Pathfinder issues by then (HORROR!!!) ;-)
I have faith in Paizo to keep bringing in new talent. They brought me in and for that I am eternally grateful. I know Erik and James and everyone on board are concerned with discovering yet untapped potential writers and designers. Never fear.
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Creative Director
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One of my Pathfinder goals... and I'm not sure how realistic this goal is... but one of my Pathfinder goals is to have at least one new author contribute an adventure to each Adventure Path every time we do an Adventure Path. That didn't quite work out for Rise of the Runelords for various reasons, but I'm hopeful about having someone we've worked with before in Dungeon and/or Dragon who hasn't written an Adventure Path installment before to get in on Curse of the Crimson Throne.
Contributor
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For the value for the dollar perspective, I think we all got spoiled on how much we got out of that $8 issue of Dungeon every month. Back in 1986 when I picked up the first copy of the magazine, it seemed an incredible value compared to how much modules were costing back then. <snip>
I think this is the biggest barrier that Paizo has to overcome in making people understand the value of Pathfinder... the value of Dungeon was outrageous! Pathfinder is a different price point, but from what I've seen (preview copy at Origins, Gamemastery modules), the quality is even better than Dungeon too.
We were eating at the all you can eat buffet, and now we're buying steak dinners (insert lovely vegetarian dish if more apropriate for you).
[punches Craig in the kidney, steps over his writhing body]
ooh! ooh!
[punches Craig in the kidney, steps over his writhing body]
ooh! ooh!
::stabs EP in the back depositing his corpse on top of Craig's spasming form, and stepping over the two of them::
ooh! ooh!
::Realizes he can't be chosen for this as he is already working on Pathfinder, and turns in horror to look at what he's done::
GODS NO! EP! ARE YOU OKAY!?!
You're a dead man.
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“Hey Nick!” <Moth goes to punch Nick, then remembers he’s like some kick ass Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon style fighter, and pretends he was just reaching to scratch his head instead>
Um, yeah, I can’t write to Paizo standard anyway, I just find it therapeutic to get into the occasional fist fight (with people who probably can’t kill me).
You're a dead man.
The corpse speaks! He is undead!!!! What monster have I created! A revenant bent on my doom! Flee!!!
“Hey Nick!” <Moth goes to punch Nick, then remembers he’s like some kick ass Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon style fighter, and pretends he was just reaching to scratch his head instead>
Um, yeah, I can’t write to Paizo standard anyway, I just find it therapeutic to get into the occasional fist fight (with people who probably can’t kill me).
Ha! As long as you don't get between me and Indian food you are safe Mothman! :-)
