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What can I say,
WotC just shot my dog right in front of my eyes. I can't believe the emotional reaction I'm having to this. The total disgust and outrage I have towards WotC right now defies description.
I'd like to say that I'll really look forward to the Pathfinder books but by being limited to only OGL material (ie. PHB, DMG, MM and EPH) I just don't see them living up to the full spectrum that Dungeon was able to provide.
I have this strange feeling that this will be looked back upon as the day D&D died.
Anyone know where I can get a "R.I.P. Dungeon" armband? I want to buy a tonne of them and sell them at GenCon this year.
Jack.
WTF was Wizards of the Coast thinking?!? ~shakes my head in amazement~ Screw them. I will be subscribing to Paizo's stuff asap!!! THEY, not WOTC deserve my support!
That's a kick right in the teeth.
I'm.. really very upset.
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Getting punched in the chest is a good way to describe how I feel right now. It's like somebody just kicked my dog or something... O.o
Like playing Row-sham-bow with Eric Cartman. And that's after the initial shock and reading about the circumstances a little more.
It's been a rough week...VA Tech, taxes, death to my "kin" in Dungeon and Dragon. What's next? Prohibition returns? Ice cream causes cancer?
Like so many, I'll put my remaining tab into Pathfinder but I will need to be experiencing d20 OGLagasms with each release to commit to further months.
Loyalty to a company/brand takes a hit with events like this. TSR's death throes were survived, I suppose our favourite magazine will be too.
I just hope aspiring writers, artists, and editors will have a chance to contribute through Paizo's guidance.
I have to say that this is not a unique phenomenon in the industry in some respects-as a longtime Traveller player I'd seen the GDW house organ, 'Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society', morph into 'Challenge' magazine (covering a wide but sadly shallow range of vaguely-related games by that publisher, and with steadily worsening writing and a lack of focus on the core Traveller game), while startup mag 'The Traveller's Digest' took GDW's license and grew with it into a fan favorite 'zine and became DGP (Digest Group Publications-the 'Paizo' of the day)with lots of cool supplements, great art and slick presentation, and an 'adventure path' which was truly original and groundbreaking (Dr. Theodore Krenstein, Aybee Wan Owen, Akidda Laagiir and Dur Telemon were 'iconics' long before WotC coined the term...)
Sadly, neither GDW nor Digest Group survived past the mid 90s...
I enjoy online content, being a regular reader of the Oerth Journal and other Greyhawkania-so I hope Paizo's new initiative will carry on all of the traditions we've associated with Dragon and especially Dungeon despite the change of name.
Damn you Wizards!!! The bottom line is that you knew that the Dragon and Dungeon magazines where superior to the crap you put out every month so you decided to erase the completion.
Wizards will not get another dime from me.
I just don't know what to say (or write).
One of the things I really liked about Paizo was their ability to support the OOP settings. Other than a specific Greyhawk lisence, will there be any chance of seeing anything ala Campaign Classics issues in the future (in Pathfinder or elsewhere).
Havard
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wow, kinda of a shock, but with today's market, cheaper to put things online & such.
been having alot of problems the last couple months getting issues & such, my local outlet has problems getting issues, I don't like subscriptions (USPS treats magazines like pizza coupons you get in the mail, bags are open, or magazines are smashed), so this saves me that part but I'll miss getting Dragon & Dungeon magazines, been getting them for a long time.
oh well, welcome to the digital age I guess....
RM
I just realized that the last few issues will stop short, BARELY, of the October issue of DRAGON.
Every year I am able to discount my dread for the approaching April issue (sorry guys) with "well, October will make up for it!"
Dammit. Why couldn't the license have expired after issue 360?
WotC will give us online content? I am wondering where they'll get their content from, some of their latest "free" stuff isn't very good, I downloaded "the diseased" or whatever and the story was uninspired, to say the least.
On a personal note, my poor CW's they'll never meet the render.
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I too am stunned and saddened like so many posting here. I must shake my head in dismay at another funky move on WoTC's part. I can't say that I'm excited by the way that company does it's business. Mini booster packs were the start, no AP Hardcover permission after Shackled City was the middle, and pulling the carpet out from under Paizo is the end.
However.
Paizo has clearly been hobbled by it's connections to WoTC. Being free of that can only be a good thing. Paizo's business model has been nothing short of wonderful. Amazing magazines, creative ideas, awesome accessories, and let us not forget: the messageboards. Where else can we, the great unwashed, ask questions of and be answered by the editors, authors, and publishers of a much beloved product? The Customer Service at Paizo could. not. be. better. As much as we love what Paizo produces, they return that love with bend-over-backwards fan service.
So, my choice is pretty clear. I will happily subscribe to Pathfinder, (as long as my mortgage lets me). There are too many rapacious businesses out there. I will not let the opportunity pass to support a genuine good hearted business which, oh yeah, produces a top notch product that I want.
So I'm looking forward to what happens next. The sky's the limit folks.
Thank you for caring about us Paizo.
*shuffles off to subscribe to Pathfinder*
I was going to write something like this. No sense in that now.
QFT.
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Meh - it was bound to happen. WotC has been pulling quite a few licenses. Primarily Code Monkey's (for their character gen software) and now Paizo.
This is part of their online/subscription based content initiative (that I have no insider info just speculation).
I suspect that soon the announcement will come out that their online client to support virtual tabletop software (ala Fantasy Grounds - www.fantasygrounds.com or Screen Monkey www.nbos.com ) will support modules from their online content.
It's almost a direct reversal of d20 and the OGL, what some I would gather to say at WotC think a miserable failure because we, as consumers have seen that quite a few producers can make better D&D products than WotC can.
The next step will be to remove the OGL from the next edition of D&D so that only their client can be 4th edition compatible and voila.
- New 4th Edition
- New 4th edition content (the electronic version of Dragon and Dungeon Magazine)
- New character creation software (non-downloadable)
- New virtual tabletop client
- New "collectible" virtual miniatures (just ask MtG Online if it's a viable model to sell "non-existant" cards"
Later,
Greg Volz
Natural Twenty Gaming
This news deeply saddens me. I do not post much, but I love reading these boards daily. Dragon and Dungeon have been a big part of my free time for over 15 years, and for the last 3 years these magazines have been the best that they ever have been.
All I can say is that I really like the products that Paizo creates and shortly after this post, I will be cashing in my two years plus subscription in each magazine and looking at my options. Pathfinder here I come.
Paizo, I want to extend a heart-felt thanks for doing such an awsome job with these mags. I am looking forward to your future products when you won't have your hands tied behind your back.
One question if I may. Any Paizo campaign settings in the works?
Utak
One question if I may. Any Paizo campaign settings in the works?
Oh yes.
--Erik
Drooling like the half-orc I am
That was one quick response.
Cant wait for a Paizo CS and again, Thank You
If Wizards drops the ball with this, Paizo is going to take over the hobby by sheer willpower domination and better quality. The only way Wizards can salvage this is by putting out a monthly product of equal quality and lower cost, since they're not printing anything out.
I don't know enough about Wizards to say if that's going to happen or not, but judging from the sh!tstorm over on the Wizards boards, my confidence level isn't high, considering that this Scott Rouse dude hasn't even chimed in to defend or explain Wizards' decision.
Okay, so I just have a few major questions that I need some help answering...
First, as I understand it both magazines will no longer be published after 9/2007. This means I can still buy back issues but no new issues will be published. That I understand. I don't like it but I understand it. Now, this new Pathfinder publication will be online only? I hate reading online material. Can't lie in the bathtub with it, or prop it up on my belly while lying in bed. Oh well. Is Pathfinder just online content?
Most important query: Can we fans and gamers still write for the publication formerly known as Dungeon/Dragon and now called Pathfinder? From what I read, there will only be Adventure Paths published and the campaign world is already going to be set. So does this mean any writers have to create stories in that world only? Will there even be room for new writers?
This apparently means that the Paizo/Greyhawk love affair is over. I've always been setting neutral, so this doesn't bother me too much, but I have to believe that there are folks at Paizo, and certainly folks on these boards who will be pretty upset over that alone.I can't speak for my cohorts, but my love affair with Greyhawk predates my professional gaming career by more than a decade, and will continue until they put me in a casket. James, Jason, and I just co-wrote "Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk" for WotC, which will be releasing in August.
I am on record at WotC as being extremely interested in a Greyhawk license or licensing opportunities related to that property. So we'll see what happens.
--Erik
GREYHAWK!!! Ouch... this is what hurts the most. Dungeon and Dragon have been my secret outlets for new Greyhawk material for years... I am going to miss it, a lot. I'm sure the new Pathfinder will be great, certainly the talent (i.e., the writers, artists, etc.) is, but I am pained at the thought of not having anymore Greyhawk. I don't think the folks at WotC do enough there.
I would do nearly anything to see more of the quality Greyhawk material that I've seen in the last few years!!! PLEASE PURSUE THE LICENSE!
Just that glimmer of hope will keep me going...
I grew up with these magazines... I started collecting in the low 80's and absolutely revere these mags... I've even dumped two very stunning women over this game, and a Dragon mag argument (she wanted me to get rid of my collection!) was one of those!
My head is hung. I think I'll have a shot.
Sean Riley. Loyal subscriber.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Relax; it was only a matter of time! Many of you may not remember when Dragon and Dungeon were “endangered of extinction” back in ’96-97…don’t ask me exactly when…damn this dementia due to age :-) Be glad it lasted as long as it did and that you were able to enjoy it as long as you could, and for some of you it was the perfect medium to introduce you to Dungeons & Dragons!
I must say that Dragon had lost its appeal to me, except for the articles which supported the new Adventure Paths, but losing Dungeon is going to hurt…for a while! Let’s just hope that Paizo is putting their brightest and best into this Pathfinder publication and that they continue to publish a great product…
Whining and gnashing your teeth might make you feel better, but quite honestly, take it from this “gray-bush” that it just isn’t worth getting your blood in a boil over WoTC and trying to get some campaign together to tell them what a mistake they have made! They obviously have lost touch with many of us players…maybe they will get the revenues that they are expecting out of these projects that they are contemplating and maybe not? All that you can do is deal with the damage and press forward... I personally will continue to patron Paizo until they pizz me off :-) , and I encourage you all to do as well!
Sláinte!
** Jaegyr steps down from soap box and disappears back into the crowd **
I can't even begin to put into words how I feel.
Shocked. Betrayed. Burned. Discarded like rubbish.
I think I just bought my last WoTC product. Hell, it's making me even consider giving up D&D completely. I don't have the time nor the energy to go hunt these things down myself... and now I'll be forced to.
As someone mentioned on WotC, (gads, I'm having trouble typing it now,) Paizo was the only source of non OGL modules. So now, if you want to have a module that uses something other than MM1, (and, for that matter, only certain monsters in MM1,) write it yourself.
I, for one, don't want to have to print off files just so I can use them in my game. I don't keep a laptop next to me for running the game. I like the feel and the touch of a BOOK, not a keyboard. I DON'T want to have an online subscription to an online magazine. If I wanted one of those, I would have gotten one for Pyramid when it went online, and I'm a much bigger fan of Car Wars than I ever was of D&D.
I have relied on the Adventure Paths for the past three years for my campaign needs, and I'm on a tight budget. This may very well kill my rpging for a very long time.
And what about all the aspiring writers out there? Is Pathfinder going to take outside submissions, or did the best way to break into the business just evaporate?
WoTC, this is a slap in the face to your entire customer base.
Squid
Okay, so I just have a few major questions that I need some help answering...
First, as I understand it both magazines will no longer be published after 9/2007. This means I can still buy back issues but no new issues will be published. That I understand. I don't like it but I understand it. Now, this new Pathfinder publication will be online only? I hate reading online material. Can't lie in the bathtub with it, or prop it up on my belly while lying in bed. Oh well. Is Pathfinder just online content?
Most important query: Can we fans and gamers still write for the publication formerly known as Dungeon/Dragon and now called Pathfinder? From what I read, there will only be Adventure Paths published and the campaign world is already going to be set. So does this mean any writers have to create stories in that world only? Will there even be room for new writers?
Hades, Pathfinder is a book that is also sold as a PDF and if you subscribe you get the book AND the PDF each month.
As for submissions, from the FAQ:
How can I submit material for publication in Pathfinder?
Pathfinder is going to need monsters, and lots of them, and they're the easiest way to break in to this exciting new publication. If we like your monster, we'll print it in an upcoming Pathfinder Bestiary; it may even end up with a role in that volume's adventure! We're currently discussing other ways to open up Pathfinder so that we'll have room for fan-submitted articles and content; stay tuned to paizo.com/Pathfinder for details and submission guidelines as they become available.
WOW!!!!! THAT'S ALL I CAN SAY!!! NO MORE DRAGON.......NO MORE DUNGEON....... I KNEW THIS ENTIRE ONLINE REVOLUTION CRAP WAS GOING TO END UP SCREWING US OLD FOGIES (AGE 32) IN THE END. MAYBE I DO HAVE ENOUGH D&D BOOKS NOW........... BUT KNOWING ME PROBABLY NOT :( THIS JUST SUCKS.
I am also very saddened at this news...I just logged in and there it was...like a sudden kick in the groin...
But it doesn't surprise me...the amount of positive feelings I have for Hasbro and their product has been nose-diving in the last few years or so...all WoTC has seemed to be churning out recently are reprints of older products/ideas or optional crap that I will never use and I have been turning to other open d20 material for my role playing needs...
Paizo was the only "officially licensed" producer of D&D material that I am/was actually excited about ( I have/had subscriptions to both magazines) ...some magazines were better than others but I could reliably say that every magazine had at least something hat either inspired me or I directly incorporated into my campaigns...
so I will give Pathfinder a try, cherish my old Dragon memories ( like being 10 years old and buying Dragon #94 with the $$$ I had earned from mowing my departed grandma's lawn so long ago) and grieve for the loss of something that for no reason ended except for the greed and shortsightedness of a bunch of suites who believe in the "gotta catch them all" mentality more so than over 20 years of loyal customers and experience...IMO Dragon made D&D/AD&D bigger than what it could ahve ever been without it...
P.S. I've seen the "online" content of WoTC's D&D site...except for some Realms and Eberron stuff (usually written by the creators of those campaign worlds themselves), it has never impressed me enough to spend the cents to actually print it out...
WOW!!!!! THAT'S ALL I CAN SAY!!! NO MORE DRAGON.......NO MORE DUNGEON....... I KNEW THIS ENTIRE ONLINE REVOLUTION CRAP WAS GOING TO END UP SCREWING US OLD FOGIES (AGE 32) IN THE END. MAYBE I DO HAVE ENOUGH D&D BOOKS NOW........... BUT KNOWING ME PROBABLY NOT :( THIS JUST SUCKS.
Okay, so...I guess submissions are closed for both magazines now...considering you probably have a huge backlog of submitted material?
after 30 years, dragon magazine is just... gone?
after 20 years, dungeon magazine is just... gone?
i'm stunned, and can take no action this round.
messy
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I, too, am tremendously disappointed by this announcement; working on the monthly Maps of Mystery for Dungeon has been one of the highlights of my career, and I'll miss that more than I can say. Dungeon Magazine gave me my big break into this industry and has provided a wonderful creative outlet ever since! That said, I'm pleased that Paizo has invited me to be involved in their GameMastery product line and I plan to keep working for them as long as they'll have me! :)
As for the Maps of Mystery...I'll find some way to keep producing those. I couldn't bear to let that series fade away with so many ideas left to explore!
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...thinking...rereading...trying to disbelieve but rolling a 1...
Oh my! It's gone. You know, I am 36 this coming june and have two really terrible years behind me which had been so tough for my family (car accident, a lot of surgerys), and among all those things my Dungeon's gone!
It can't get worse, at least that's a soothing thought. After 22 years of D&D I never thought such a thing would happen...
One of my friends said this today:"Out of an ending Legends rise! Now the Dungeon and Dragon magazines will be remembered forever!"
Erik and James, you two gave these magazines the touch they need to find a way into so many hearts! I really appreciate what you both have done to the magazines (and all you other guys over there!). Thanx, and know your names, too, will be remembered when someone'll talk about the mags.
The Styes - gone
AP's - gone
Maps of Mystery - gone
My monthly comic fix - gone
People knowing the history of the D&D univers - on to other things
I hope this community here will last, because you (paizonians), became something like family to me over the last couple of years!
I just can't understand what WotC is planning with this... Again, Paizo seems closer to the game and its players than those Wizards over at this coast...
After reading a while on these messageboards, trying to cope with these news, I can only agree: This is a craptacular decision on WotC´s part!
Hell, I want my gaming material PRINTED! Not some online crap that makes your eyes bleed. NOTHING beats a book or a magazine you can hoild in your hands!
I´ve lost my WotC board identity, it seems, but when I regain my user ID and password, I´ll post there for the first time in about 2-4 years, and it won´t be positive! I´m really upset by that decision, and I´ll give paizos pathfinder a chance, as I have really come to like the company that provides such good content, and such a great message board. (And, helped such a great community to come into being). My sub is sufficient to get me the first issue of pathfinder, and I´ll have it!
I´m very upset that one of the best sources of GH material is about to run dry once and for all!
If just read the announcement on the WotC website, and it seems to me that they might have been somewhat envious of the success paizo had with the magazines - twelve (12!) ENnies and a Gen Con award within 5 years speak a loud enough language. The "internet reasoning" is somewhat lame to me. And, obviously, Dragon as well as Dungeon were successful. So, to me, it comes down to this:
It is not due to failure on paizos part (rather on the contrary), the magazines were successful and won several prizes while being published by paizo. Paizo did better that WotC did in the last years they published the mags themselves. So, WotC effectively killed a successful licence (and a 30+ years market brand). There has to be a good reason for this - if a company publishing a licensed product does well, the mother company should do well also, as the licensee advertises the main product. (And I heard no complaint that D&D 3.x was a bad business).
I see two reasons for this:
1. WotC is envious of paizos success and tries to get the success back to their own marketing. (which is questionable, as the audience does not seems to be accepting of a online-only marketing concept - not with Dragons 30+ years of print marketing.)
2. Other reasons warrant a cancellation of the license. This could include an upcoming 4th edition - it will come someday. Or, they view paizo as an intrusion on their very own field, with the (successful and much requested usage of the) Greyhawk setting and other things. The audience was demanding of a GH setting book and things like these, not to mention the requested AP hardcovers.
Either way, I think there are reasons way beyond the lame "internet reasoning" that led to this (in my eyes stupid) decision to cancel the license, which will come to light in the future.
For the time being, I will support paizo by subscribing to the new pathfinder, and I hope for a lot more interesting, funny, upsetting, angry discussions on the messageboards here - I´ve really come to appreciate the lot of you.
And if Erik Mona manages to get a Greyhawk licence - count me in!!!
Stefan
As for the Maps of Mystery...I'll find some way to keep producing those. I couldn't bear to let that series fade away with so many ideas left to explore!
Please, please do!
And everyone... vote with your wallets. Follow the talent, not the title.
The Styes - gone
AP's - gone
Maps of Mystery - gone
My monthly comic fix - gone
People knowing the history of the D&D univers - on to other things
I hope this community here will last, because you (paizonians), became something like family to me over the last couple of years!I just can't understand what WotC is planning with this... Again, Paizo seems closer to the game and its players than those Wizards over at this coast...
Calm down! AP's aren't gone... they're shifting to the main focus of this Pathfinder deely.
And hopefully there will be comics and maps of mystery to come... Downer isn't finished yet, Zogonia still needs to come back from hiatus. And we're gonna stay here as long as we can!
I too feel betrayed by Wotc, I have dragon #48 on up to current and dungeon since Paizo took over. I enjoy being able dig out the back issues to find an article that I remember from over a decade ago.It will not be the same scrolling thru e-mags to find an article. Anyway, I look forward Pathfinder and the continuance of the great material that I have come to expect from the Paizo gang.
so who owns the rights to stuff that was published in Dungeon, Paizo or WOTC?
The Styes - gone
AP's - gone
Maps of Mystery - gone
My monthly comic fix - gone
WOTC, without a doubt.
Stefan
One thought comes to my mind...
Now that Paizo is doing it's own thing, I have no fear of 4E. I hope Paizo will help us to keep being supplied with 3E material for a very long time!
I don´t think so, sorry. A publishing company that wants to stay in the business has to be current. There is a reason why no 2nd ed supplements are produced these days...
Stefan
Ironically, back before Erik Mona and the crew took over, and there were a million and one PrCs and specific campaign setting material was banished from the magazine, I thought exactly what the press release from WOTC said, "I can go online and find this kind of stuff, I don't need the magazine."
After Erik and the crew reworked Dragon and Dungeon, my mind changed completely. Heck, I never even got Dungeon on a regular basis before the current crew came in.
Hell, WotC never even managed to publish a website where you FOUND the the stuff you were looking for - and now they are planning an online magazine???
Stefan
geez, who pulled the drama tag out? i'm going to miss my dragon subscription, but hey.