Stunned speechless.


Dungeon Magazine General Discussion

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farewell2kings wrote:
KnightErrantJR wrote:


Sooooo . . . I take it the drinking has commenced?
I'm finished. Just killed my last Sam Adams. Had a six pack tonight...never realized how much I cared emotionally about these two magazines...seeing them die live and in person bothers me more than it should. As I told Onrie--I paid for my first Dragon subscription in 1981 by mowing lawns and cleaning pools in the apartment complex where I lived at age 14. f~*&, I'm SAD over magazines! How pathetic is that.

That's not sad at all. These magazines were the source of so many a young person's daydreams. They were the source of so many an older person's daydreams. I was kind of hoping they'd be there to continue to give me joy into old age. Something that was so dear and rewarding for us, once warm and cuddly, has turned into Brundlefly for the wrong reasons. That's no splinter, that's a stake in your back.


I worked at an egg farm to afford them . . . chickens are nasty, evil creatures . . .

Grand Lodge

farewell2kings wrote:
f&%&, I'm SAD over magazines! How pathetic is that.

You and me both, man. And I don't even have any beer in the house...


What a shock, I didn't see this coming. I looked forward every month to the day when I would find each magazine waiting in my mailbox... kind of like a touch of Christmas every month. I can't believe that the mags that carried D&D for so many decades are coming to such an abrupt end... Even worse, there goes Greyhawk (not counting the stuff put out by Troll Lord or Kuntz)... A sad day indeed...


This really caught me off guard. It just doesn't seem right that Dungeon and Dragon should cease to exist.

I've converted my subscriptions over to Pathfinder - I wish everyone at Paizo all the best.

Gawd - I feel like I'm writing an obituary.

Liberty's Edge

KnightErrantJR wrote:
I worked at an egg farm to afford them . . . chickens are nasty, evil creatures . . .

I've been to one. ye gads.


My best wishes and best of luck to the Paizo staff, I am sorry, verry sorry over this news.

Alas, I will dust off my old books and boy-cot any further WotC/Hasbro material. Enough is enough.

I am totally disgusted with all of it. They have ruined an iconic, a legendary form of media....ageless in its presentation. The loss of Dragon and Dungeon magazines will send ripples, nay... a shock wave through the RPG community.

Hasbro/WotC... sorry, but somehow, the CEO's of Hasbro have to have some level of influance for such a STUPID descision!!! If not WotC is in its death throws, and I'll not help support the jobs of such cretins by buying into them. No more!


Thank all of you at Paizo. I opted for the three issues of Pathfinder.

Having the faith in you folks that I do (developed from years of subscribibg), I'll actually buy the full fledge subscription in another month or two (when I have the cash).

If you're putting as much work into it as you did both Dungeon and Dragon, I'm sure Pathfinder is gonna be sweet!

The only down side I see is that _if_ the other two players in my group who also subscribe to Dragon roll their subscriptions over as well, and then go for the full subscritption, running advenbture paths with out them looking ahead will be a bit more difficult.

There was a very sound reason why Dragon, and Dungeon were two seperate magazines.

Thank you (again)! It was cool to give us subscribers an option for our remaining credit on subscriptions.


Heathansson wrote:
KnightErrantJR wrote:
I worked at an egg farm to afford them . . . chickens are nasty, evil creatures . . .
I've been to one. ye gads.

Indeed . . . I'm one of the lucky ones . . . my brother and my cousin both worked out in the houses with them, and they swore they could hear them calling their names . . . then again, I think it was the funny cigarettes they both took with them.

The Exchange

I don't like this but am confident the Paizo team will take care of us as long as it is viable. I will continue to make Paizo my preferred choice for gaming stuff. I like the Print/Online nature of Pathfinder. I need my Critical Hit Cards soon.

I have not read all the posts, but I wonder if WotC really thought about the damage to future editions? I returned to playing D&D after a 15 year sabbatical because of Dragon's third edition preview articles. I respected the move to 3.5 because of Dragon's 3.5 preview articles. Without this print product, I wonder if the next edition (or some other change or product) will not be given a chance. WotC may get a boost to their online content but will it damage D&D in the long run?

Now I am going to fondle my copy of The Dragon Issue #1. A Pink and Green cover, what were they thinking?


It is now harder for non-pros in gaming to become pros and get published, since Pathfinder will reply on talents of those who have come before.

With Dragon and Dungeon, people were encouraged to contribute to the magazines, and a fair number of those who post here have seen their names in print in the magazines.

Now...?


Sob

I have just had a look at pathfinder's blog.
A few words.

1 The name pathfinder links to a disastrous hack and slash movie. What a misstep.

2 A large part of the value of Dragon and Dungeon is the heritage they bear. Thirty years of goodwill.

3 Greyhawk is going to lose all official support. Pathfinder uses its own new world. I love that the adventure paths are set on Oerth. This is also a misstep, discarding a brand that has fanatical loyalty.

4 It seems to me to be a very risky endeavour to discard two proven successes for one untried experiment. A risk of "new coke" proportions.

5 An online model is environmentally sound, but I do not game with a computer at my desk. Yes, there is a print copy available. I live in Taiwan and shipping costs are an issue.

6 The announcement is not transparent. Despite the sensitivity shown to the supporters of the old model, we as a community are still, obviously unconvinced of the neccessity of the change. Why are we not given a clear, compelling reason that this is a good change for the hobby we love?

7 Sob.


Vattnisse wrote:
farewell2kings wrote:
f&%&, I'm SAD over magazines! How pathetic is that.
You and me both, man. And I don't even have any beer in the house...

That's criminal. Not even some of that Norwegian beer you told me about? That sucks! I'm past Sam Adams now and working on a Paulaner Salvator and no I'm not working tomorrow!!


Vic Wertz wrote:
Sir Kaikillah wrote:
Because of delivery problems with both magazines, prior to Paizo, I am reluctant to renew my subscriptions. I was just about to change that and subscribe. I will difinitly think about the Pathfinder stuff.

Pathfinder is a book, not a magazine, so it won't be shipped as Periodicals class mail. That's a REALLY good thing for you and me both.

-Vic.
.

Yes, yes it is, lol

I know it was the vagaries of USPS and Canada Post, but the Periodical class sucked big time.

I could physically walk down the I-5 from Vancouver to Paizo's warehouse (I'm assuming you ship out of the Seattle area) faster than Periodical class shipped internationally :-(

And 1/3 my magazines arrived banged up, or didn't arrive, or arrived after they showed up on newstands, etc.

That being said, I'm lazy and have a new baby in the house, so not having to run to the FLGS to buy the latest issue before it sells out made it worthwhile.

I'm extremely happy that Pathfinder won;t be using Periodical class mail!


Sebastian wrote:
Baratuk wrote:
The Jade wrote:
Many of us are in our thirties. We can afford a $20 book. Paizo will get my money before Wizards does. I only wish they had even more monthly periodicals lined up.
I am one year from thirty and 20 dollars a month can buy me alot of blank paper for me to come with my own ideas with. Just because I dont want to pay 20 a month for a magazine/book doesnt mean I cant afford it.

Ah, so you're cheap. That's totally different.

If it's worth your money, buy it. If it's not, don't. Simple as that.

lol

I read this post right after your comment to Heath about "asshattedness"


Pardon my french, but this is f$%~ed up. Over the last few years, the quality in Dungeon and Dragon magazine have steadily risen above just about anything I had seen before. I have more published modules in the pages of this magazine than I could use for years, a great number of them of top quality. I will never, ever get as excited about a pdf coming out on a website as I will about receiving a printed magazine that I can hold in my hands. I'll definitely take a look at what Paizo is coming up with, but WoTC is not getting another dollar of my money if I can help it. Cancelling a license that has thrived and grown into something really excellent in favor of a fad publishing tactic is terrible business sense.

Remember a few years ago when Stan Lee and Marvel comics tried publishing comic books online? Remember how fast that s@+$ tanked? That's probably where the magazines are heading now that WoTC is pushing to put them online. The internet is a great tool, but it will never replace the simple pleasure of having a magazine or book in hand and reading it.

And, honestly, when WoTC puts out such alarmingly bad or mediocre books and adventures full of stupid new rules and complex new systems, they shouldn't get any money. They could never compete with what Dungeon does every month with their crappy overpriced modules. "Hmm. $10 for one 32 page module padded out to twice that with a cumbersome new encounter format, frought with cliches and encounters meant only to sell their other products or $7 for a 100 page magazine with guarantees three adventures and all kinds of useful articles. Which should I choose?"

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

I don't often post on these messageboards, but I feel the need to add my voice to those who are deeply saddened by this decision. This truly is the end of an era. It just add to my misgivings about the direction that WoTC has been heading in the last 12 months or so...

I am interested in Pathfinder though and have a couple of quick questions that Erik or Lisa might be able to answer:

What will the 'feel' of the new campaign setting introduced by Pathfinder be like? I've read the first blog entry by James, but it doesn't give an indication of the kind of setting that is under construction. Will it be sword & Sorcery? High Fantasy? Dark Fantasy? Steampunk? Or some interesting combination of these elements...

Will Paizo be using any OGL content from other publishers such as Green Ronin, Necromancer, et al in Pathfinder?

Also, will new creatures, spells and other stuff introduced in Pathfinder be released for third-party use under the OGL?


This sucks. I had power attack and ioun stones going.

I'm taking Wingclipper hostage.


I'm too young to drink but that has never stopped my age group.


Joshua,

Thanks for the reply and for helping to clear some of this up. I have been spending quite a few hours going back and forth between Paizo and WotC's forums. There has been a great deal of animosity over this decision, and I have not been immune to the profound sense of loss.

I have noticed that between the two websites, there has been a conspicuous lack of presence of WotC Staff to respond to questions. Meanwhile, several staffers from Paizo have been here to bring us enlightment in troubled times. Thanks.

Joshua J. Frost wrote:


Paizo has no decision-making authority in this matter. I've seen this same notion crop up on the WotC boards today, too, and I can't imagine where it's coming from. If we were allowed to, we'd publish Dragon and Dungeon until the end of time. As licensees, though, we're beholden to the license holder and since WotC has decided to take the brand in house and go another direction with the magazines all we can do is look to our future and plan accordingly. We wish WotC the best in their ventures and hope folks will enjoy what we have to offer.

You can only get month-to-month subscriptions to Dungeon or Dragon on paizo.com as of 11:00 A.M. this morning. We suspended subscriptions greater than one year nearly six months ago. Unfortunately, our in-bag renewal letters didn't get changed and we've had to deal with the customer service side of that mistake.

There is no grand conspiracy here.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

As is said in Highlander:
"It's better to burn out, than to fade away!"

Erik, James, Lisa an all those guys at Paizo did exactly this. The magazine stoped when it was at it's best! WotC would've never been able to do something similar!!!


Rexbo wrote:


I have noticed that between the two websites, there has been a conspicuous lack of presence of WotC Staff to respond to questions. Meanwhile, several staffers from Paizo have been here to bring us enlightment in troubled times. Thanks.

I've also noticed the lack of responses by the WOTC staff.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Prime Evil wrote:
What will the 'feel' of the new campaign setting introduced by Pathfinder be like? I've read the first blog entry by James, but it doesn't give an indication of the kind of setting that is under construction. Will it be sword & Sorcery? High Fantasy? Dark Fantasy? Steampunk? Or some interesting combination of these elements...

All of the above. The world we're developing is enormous. There's room for all genres. For Pathfinder, we're focusing on a relatively small part of that world to start with (about the size of California), and it probably matches the Sword & Sorcery and Dark Fantasy genres the best; think Robert E. Howard meets Hammer Horror. As we move on to other Adventrue Paths, we're likely to move on to other regions of the world where different genres rule.

Prime Evil wrote:
Will Paizo be using any OGL content from other publishers such as Green Ronin, Necromancer, et al in Pathfinder?

Yes. Currently, the Advanced Bestiary, Book of Fiends, and Tome of Horrors I are all in easy reach on my desk, for example.

Prime Evil wrote:
Also, will new creatures, spells and other stuff introduced in Pathfinder be released for third-party use under the OGL?

Absolutely. Pathfinder's an OGL product, and while we'll likely retain product identity on the flavor stuff, the crunch is all open.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Not Happy Jan.

I've got an old, battered copy of Dragon #51 with a little pixie on the cover sitting here, and a bunch more in shelves behind me.

Dungeon got me and my friends back into the game after years of not playing and now it just stops.

Mind you, I had wondered why Paizo was starting to push the Game Mastert line - writing on the wall?

Ah well. I'll just have to hope that Pathfinder can make it from Sydney to Adelaide.

Thank goodness the messageboards don't have to go - it's my main link to all things gamey.

Thanks for the hard effort Paizo People.

Reggie


On Thursday night, approximately 7 hours after the announcement concerning the end of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, Phil Lacefield Jr., the Sales Manager at Paizo, granted Pulp Gamer an exclusive interview.

Phil talked about the end of an era, the reaction of Paizo customers, and the introduction of Paizo's Pathfinder.

You can listen to the interview at the following link:

http://www.pulpgamer.com/2007/04/20/inside-track-018-phil-lacefield-jr-of-
paizo-publishing/


Ok, I think I have calmed down enough to post something coherent.

First off I echo the sentiments here or shock and dismay. It's funny how attached you can get to a magazine.

I would rather this had not happened but it has so, we are where we are.... Given that I think Paizo is making the best of the situation and it sounds like we are going to get pretty much everything we liked before but split between Pathfinder and Gamemastery. the only down side is the cost but if this makes Paizo more secure and they continue to produce the quality (I'm sure they will) I will find the cash.

As to the reaction I think the fact Paizo senior staff manned these boards to look after thier customers is fantastic. It only enhances my opionion of you guys. As for WOTC, well they are suspiciously absent (hidding under the desks no doubt) which says all I need to hear about how much they care about thier customers.

As always its been dressed up in whats good for the consumer but, again as always, it is money that rules and I think WOTC think they can do the mags online, avoid publishing and make a mint from rising sales.

There is one small problem, well two actually

1) The most loyal Dungeon and Dragon mag customers are on these boards and we are unanimously either going with Paizo or boycotting WOTC offering, from what I've read on the boards

2) Without the periodical on the shelves what drives people into game stores? Nothing. Lost opportunity purchases. (someone else point but sorry cant find it now)

I'm in for Pathfinder. I know it will be good. As for WOTC, I never bought much anyway and what I did way through Paizo. I wont say I will never buy anything because you never know but I will certainly not but anything I dont absolutley have to have. such as a new PH or MM.

Thak you Paizo, we are with you, keep up the good work!

Elcian

PS sorry for the long post. I feel strongly about this. I think we all do.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

There's little more I can add to the shock and dismay thus far displayed. I do not feel so eloquent as to be able to better many of the comments made here in this thread nor can I muster the needed pathos to lament what I consider the loss of an old friend in both the Dungeon and Dragon Magazines.

I am an old gamer (41) and I started before Dice, Initiative and 4th level spells. Each proceeding refinement and change in the game has taken a bit of the wonderous mystery the game invoked in me when I first piced up that simple boxed set with the dragon on it way back in 1979. I have come to understand the secret E.G.G. wove into the game so long ago, that the game is all about what you put into it, as a player and as a DM... and also as a producer of products. WotC puts in only money and thus that is what it wants out of it. I hope it finds what its looking for. Paizo put in talent, drive, hope and the love of a game and they have recieved from it the support, admiration and love of a powerful entity, the community that now lingers here on these boards. On these selfsame boards the people of Paizo hear our words, thoughts, ideas and hope and they listen to them, again gaining a bounty far greater then the sum of its parts in our loyalty. I will find a way to subscribe to Pathfinder and I will continue my support of Paizo knowing that in their actions I will find solice and comfort in what returns from my support.

These are dark times in our gaming world but now when the blade has fallen we see what truth lies behind the curtain, that Paizo will continue to be the beacon in our now strange Gaming Days where WotC will continue to seek its 20 silvers. Long Live Paizo!

Guess I had a smidgen of Eloquence in me afterall. ;)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
The world we're developing is enormous. There's room for all genres. For Pathfinder, we're focusing on a relatively small part of that world to start with (about the size of California), and it probably matches the Sword & Sorcery and Dark Fantasy genres the best; think Robert E. Howard meets Hammer Horror.

Now you've definitely got me intrigued! It sounds like the initial adventure path will feature a setting kind of similar to the works of Clark Ashton Smith, C.L. Moore et al.

James Jacobs wrote:
Prime Evil wrote:
Will Paizo be using any OGL content from other publishers such as Green Ronin, Necromancer, et al in Pathfinder?
Yes. Currently, the Advanced Bestiary, Book of Fiends, and Tome of Horrors I are all in easy reach on my desk, for example.

The books that you mention are all good, solid works. And I personally find the idea of sharing the best OGL material between third-party publishers very appealing. I like the idea of building a shared body of high-quality material that benefits everyone....

James Jacobs wrote:
Prime Evil wrote:
Also, will new creatures, spells and other stuff introduced in Pathfinder be released for third-party use under the OGL?
Absolutely. Pathfinder's an OGL product, and while we'll likely retain product identity on the flavor stuff, the crunch is all open.

Ok...I think that you just sold me a subscription...

Shadow Lodge

I am a long time RPGer and customer of both Dungeon and Dragon magazines bought faithfully from my FLGS. Won over by the superb Adventure Paths in Dungeon I recently, like last week, subscribed to the magazine. Boy is this news hard to take!. Still I am going to give Pathfinder a go I am very confident in the staff at Paizo and wish you guys all the very best for what is bound to be a bright, bright future.

SW

Dark Archive

I'm vexed. I'm terribly vexed.

Gah! WotC and Hasbro, assuming the corporate monkeys in suits are still involved, never cease to amaze me.

I like online content to, as an extra, I cannot surf the internet in the bath which to be honest is where the vast majority of DRAGON and DUNGEON magazines get read. It is traditional for me to be all wrinkly and freezing by the time I read the last page. Bumcakes and arsecandles.

At least Pathfinder looks rather good. Gonna hurt like hell to say goodbye to Greyhawk...again.

DRAGON and DUNGEON have become the best D20 supplements to my games ever. Oh well.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Talion09 wrote:
I could physically walk down the I-5 from Vancouver to Paizo's warehouse (I'm assuming you ship out of the Seattle area) faster than Periodical class shipped internationally :-(

The magazines were shipped directly from our printer in Illinois. Pathfinder will be shipped from our warehouse near Seattle.

-Vic.
.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Do you guys know how much I trust you!?
I never, ever, subscribed to something I have never seen before, and here I go, already being a Pathfinder Charter Subscriber, and I am so sure this world is going to rock.

One thing I am going to miss, though, Campaign Workbooks and Wolfgangs column!
Anyway, I trust in you!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Tensor wrote:
Now that this decision is public can you please tell us your opinion of what WotC is trying to accomplish or subvert?

We can't speak on behalf of WotC. You'll have to ask them that question...

-Vic.
.


I should have known that the impending conclusion of Downer was a herald of bad things coming... Psychologically speaking, I am intrigued by how many people seem to have a sense that WotC owes us somehow.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Well, I've thought about it some more and these are my thoughts:

1) This decision was made a couple months back, let's say September (am I right?).
2) Because developing something takes time.
3) No new product from WotC, because they decided to revoke the license, this means that either they are letting Paizo present their new line first (very gracious of them) or they don't have anything to present. Which doesn't bode well for their on-line content venture.

It still sucks that WotC revoked the license, Dungeon was a great source for fresh adventure ideas, and wonderful maps and handouts.


Okay folks, I'm rolling 1's trying to make sense of everything that's happening so please be patient with my stupidity.

I understand that WoTC had granted Paizo a license to publish the magazines, DUNGEON and DRAGON but not that license has, for some unknown reason, been revoked. This means both publications will be dead after September and WoTC plans on creating all online content at their website. Paizo's answer to this tragedy is to produce Pathfinders, which will be a whopping campaign book set in their own world and needing very little from us writers and hopefuls except new monsters and playtesting. Since Pathfinder will be OGL sourced, we can't use the D&D books that we've spent tons of time and money gathering over the years and now have to use the SRD or similar materials due to license infringement. So even if I had the chance to write an adventure for Pathfinder, which it seems is unlikely, I would have to reference OGL materials instead of the actual DMG or PHB that I have always used. Do any of us know whether or not WoTC has a niche for new writers in their upcoming online content resource? My main concerns about this change are what happens to those of us who want to write and contribute and be a viable part of the phenomenon we so dearly love and obsess over?

Thanks again for your patience.


I am saddened by this... However, I am already onboard for Pathfinder. The Adventure Path have made my life easier and I will continue to use them, though it is a shame that Pathfinder will not feature other adventures, which I guess if I can squeeze out the money I will need to go to GameMastery for... This sunday at my gaming group, I will have a moment of silence for the DUNGEON and DRAGON magazines.


Been reading "Dungeon" since issue #1, "Dragon" since issue #24.
Even through the years when I wasn't actually playing AD&D, I read them and adapted the content to my then "rules of choice".

Needless to say, this hurts like some well-known and cherished friend passing on.... "friends" actually, considering "Dragon" finally falls asleep too.
/sarcasm ON
Thanks a bunch WotC for "boldly going ahead" and killing off our old beloved friend and support in our dark hours of GMing need !
/sarcasm OFF

As for "Pathfinder", I truly hope that the torch that gets passed on will deliver - and, even considering the massive oversea-mailing charges (much cheaper to buy it through my friendly local gamestore), I find myself contemplating a subscription.

And given the "new-way" of presentation in their published adventures WotC uses since "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft", I really don't care all that much for their "online content". After all, I can hardly read that on the bus, train, airplane, waiting at the traffic light or beside my breafast on the kitchen counter, can I ?

GL


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Robin Hildick wrote:
The only problem I see with Pathfinder is the price...
Erik Mona wrote:


Here are some points to condier about Pathfinder:

• Each volume is a perfect-bound book with a cardstock cover and a much thicker quality of paper. It will be _much_ more durable than a magazine.

• Unlike the magazines, Pathfinder's content will not be subsidized by ads, resulting in more content for you.

• Pathfinder will include content similar to that found in both Dragon and Dungeon. It's perhaps more accurate to say that it is a replacement for both magazines, rather than a replacement for just Dungeon.

With a $7 to $8 cover price for two magazines being replaced by one book for $20 with no ads, it really isn't an outrageous price jump. That's one less cheeseburger, and let's face it, I personally could stand to miss a few cheeseburgers! It may keep me alive to game longer.

When you also add that you can get the book AND the PDF all for the same price, I'm sold. I would have subscribed to Pathfinder even it it were in addition to Dungeon and Dragon.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens Subscriber

I´m astounded just how deeply the news touched me. The bottle of red wine I had opened for casual consumption yesterday while surfing the net and relaxing was empty in no time... Reading this thread onward just now had me shedding a few tears, even if this may be stupid or childish.

I stil think that this is a stupid decision on WotCs part, and I guess that they will feel it. I will give their online content (and the conditions for getting them) a look, but from what I have seen on their page in the past, I´m not overly enthusiastic.

This might foreshadow the revocation of the OGL and the advent of 4th Ed., but if they should really plan to revoke the OGL, this will hurt themselves in the end the most. In computer software, Open Source software produced by professional software manufacturers is on the rise - you can either take the software as it is and do whatever you want, or you can buy the professional support. My guess is that they plan some business model like this in 4e. Yes, I´m convinced that a new edition is in the making - face it, 3e is nearly seven years old by now. If you compare this to other RPGs, this is a rather long time. My guess is that we will see a new edition before this decade ends.

Still, I want my mags back!

Stefan


After sitting and staring at the screen in disbelief for a couple of minutes I started looking into Pathfinder instead, and now I must say that I'm getting kind of excited instead. Much as I love Dungeon many of us are aware of that WotC prevented Paizo from doing something really cool with Age of Worms, just because they thought it was too Greyhawk specific. Now that they have severed their ties with Paizo that means that the guys (and girls) at Paizo no longer have their hands tied behind their backs by WotC anymore, and I'm really looking forward to what they will produce.

Also, the world of Pathfinder just sounds unbelievably cool ::drool::


just wanted to let all of you at Paizo know, i will be following everything you put out from now on. i cannot in good consience buy anything from WOTC any more. the king is dead, long live the new king. the adventures you guys have put out in the past 3 years have added more to my campaign than 30 years of tsr/wotc. my angst with that company has been steadily growing for the past 5 years, and now i'm over the top with this decision. i have been collecting both magazines for a number of years, and i will remain loyal to those who have made it great. every month you have put out consistently high grade product, that seems to have been written with heart in mind, not money. i only wish WOTC could see it. while i understand things change, this is going to spell a disasterous change for wizards. now all i have to do is convince my sister to get me a pathfinder subscription for my birthday in september. probably won't be too hard.

to all the writers (nick, wolfgang, richard, james, and others), editors, artists, cartographers (primarily mr. west) etc. at paizo who have made my gaming experiences over the past 5 years more rich and dynamic, i give you my salute. thank you for many fond memories, and many happy ones in the future. you have a customer for life. WOTC just lost one. forever.


BUt what about people like me who didn't use DUNGEON for the adventures, per se, but for the exciting new ideas and resource materials it presented? I read the adventures but never actually used them because I like to create my own campaigns, but the material gave me new ideas and creative energy that invigorated some of my work. What about people like me who really disdain using prepared "adventure paths" and enjoy the act of writing an entire campaign from their own head and heart? Where do we fall in the new regime?


Hades wrote:
BUt what about people like me who didn't use DUNGEON for the adventures, per se, but for the exciting new ideas and resource materials it presented? I read the adventures but never actually used them because I like to create my own campaigns, but the material gave me new ideas and creative energy that invigorated some of my work. What about people like me who really disdain using prepared "adventure paths" and enjoy the act of writing an entire campaign from their own head and heart? Where do we fall in the new regime?

If I'm not mistaken the GameMastery line is designed to provide you with your fix.


Erik Mona wrote:
Robin Hildick wrote:
The only problem I see with Pathfinder is the price... I got a year of Dungeon and Dragon for $75 - that's $6.25 a month for 2 magazines!! Pathfinder is $20 a month, and even at their 30% off subscription price, that's still $14 a month - double what I paid for the other two. And what with being an poorly paid student, I need every help I can get with cash.

I definitely understand the bit about needing cash. You'd be surprised how little room there is between the cashflow of a student and an RPG company publisher. :)

Here are some points to condier about Pathfinder:

• Each volume is a perfect-bound book with a cardstock cover and a much thicker quality of paper. It will be _much_ more durable than a magazine.

• Unlike the magazines, Pathfinder's content will not be subsidized by ads, resulting in more content for you.

• Pathfinder will include content similar to that found in both Dragon and Dungeon. It's perhaps more accurate to say that it is a replacement for both magazines, rather than a replacement for just Dungeon.

But yeah, Pathfinder is more expensive than Dragon and Dungeon. There's no getting away from that. We believe it will be a higher-quality product and we think it will be more than worth the price. A better comparison in terms of value is probably a product like WotC's "Red Hand of Doom."

I applaud your nerve for going in this direction. My concern is not the cost as much as the sheer amount of content. I could see my group (which plays religiously once a week) getting way behind on the AP, then the next one starts coming in, and I end up with a lot of very pretty books sitting on a shelf. What made you decide to make the monthly so large?

One other question - as a DM that uses initiative cards, the idea of being able to cut and paste a stat block from a PDF to a Word doc gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. I'm debating just getting the PDF version only - is there going to be any difference in the content?


First thought: "HOLY CR4P!"...

...Processing...

...processing...

I'll have to get back after I do some Pathfinder research...

There had better be no Wil Save in Pathfinder...

ASEO out


Another question...

Are WoTC now saying that DUNGEON and DRAGON will be online resources that can be accessed, for free, through their website?


I think Wizards may someday regret its decision NOT to renew DUNGEON and DRAGON magazines, as a lot of fans are going to be turned off by that kind of thing, (I know I am).

On the other hand, this might turn out to be in our (the fans) favor! No longer will Paizo be yoked to Wizards on topics such as, "can we print an AOW hardcover", or adventures designed to support Wizard products such as Frostburn, or the Book of Vile Darkness. They will now be able to publish whatever they want, as long as it's OGL cool!

I won't condem Wizards outright, but I do suspect that it has something to do with Paizo cutting into their bottom line - after all, what in business isn't about the numbers? But, I'm with those who plan on "following the talent", and want to know how to transfer my subscription to Pathfinder so that I don't miss an issue!


OK, I just realized that I'm currently playtesting Wolfgang Baur's adventure for this product, Chapter 4 I believe. Very cool. I'm on board.

So, now when I subscribe month to month, do I out i the number of months I want issues for, say "12", Or am I going to get 12 copies of issue #1 if I do that?

Also, where do I find out what is going to happen with my subscription that goes past issue 150?

ASEO out

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