Kalin Agrivar's page

Thank you very much. Oh, and yesterday I received #123 so I definitely did not receive #122.

I am writing that I still have not received my Pathfinder Adventure Path #122. The email notification I received on September 8 stated it would be shipped out by September 20 and would take 7-11 business days for transit (16 days at least so far). I emailed customer service earlier this week and have not gotten a reply yet. Any reply would be awesome.

Kalin

Thank you very much for the help!

Would it be possible for you to put package with the 4 back issues with my May subscription and send the package with the hardcover out immediately, to save on shipping costs?

Hello,

I made this order on March 9, 2015 during the DMs Day sale for a Paizo hardcover and some back issues. After a couple of weeks of waiting for my order to arrive I read the fine print and it said this order would be shipped with my monthly AP subscription (Order #3496443).

On April 13, I received notice that my AP copy (#3496443)) had been shipped though the email said there was only 1 item in the shipment; I checked my account and my DMs Day sale order (#3496413) had been divided into two packages: 4 back issues would be with the AP and 1 back issue with the hardcover (I am assuming due to package weight).

Yesterday in the mail (April 23) I receive in my mail box a slip to pick up one package from Paizo. I waited for the mail today (April 24) to see if the slip for the second package had arrived (as I live out of town and was trying to avoid making two trips). The second slip did not arrive so I went into town to pick up the first package.

I found that all that had been delivered to me was the monthly AP; the back issues were not in the package. Going back into my account it says (if I understand right) package 1 with the AP and the 4 back issues have already been shipped and package 2 with the hardcover and back issue still has not been shipped yet.

It is almost seven weeks since I made the DMs Day sale order (#3496413) with no resolution in sight. The hard cover was supposed to be a birthday gift for a friend and I have become frustrated with this order. Could someone contact me and tell me the status of my purchase and why it will be over 2 months before I receive my order?

* raise hand *

there was a brown/amber gemstone dragon in Basic...but the chromatic brown was introduced the Forgotten Realms (maybe 1st in Dragon magazine) as was the yellow dragon (there as a diffrent yellow brought in Dragon magazine, one of the missing chromatics)...both were desert dwelling dragons...and later in 3rd ed in Sandstorm they made the sand dragon, (which was brownish-yellowish) and the rattler dragon (purple/gray) in the Realm's Shining South, two more desert dragons lol

Brown Dragons, does anyone else miss them? I always liked them. I liked how they were chromatic yet they were still good dragons.

I don't remember any "good" brown dragons from 1st ed D&D on...there were evil chromatic variants and brown-ish dragon variants but unless it was back in Basic when golds were the only metallic I can't think of any

So we are starting a new campaign with at least four players plus the GM and essentially all of us are holding off on picking our classes until she picks what she wants. While we will support any class she wants to play (this is a home brew campaign, only rule is that all paizo official books and rules are to be used, it is not PFS) we also want to make this as gentle a learning curve as possible.

I will self admit that despite playing AD&D since the 80's I have never played a pure magic using class so I'm not the best judge on what is a good learning class to recommend.

Appreciate any and all advice. It isn't too often our little group of Pathfinders can add a new member and we're hoping she will have enough fun to fall in love with it as we have. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

I think many of the posters have missed the OP’s original question, he asked for a good learning class with as gentle a learning curve as possible.

Generally, any “pure magic using class” (which seems to mean a wizard-like class) have these disadvantages at the beginning levels(I’m assuming you know the advantages of being wizard-like and that the character will not be some ultimately optimized-power monger-munchkin kind of character):

- Really low HP, to the point they may be one-shotted on a non-crit
- The worst AC in the party
- No real combat (melee & ranged) skills
- Very few skill points
- A very limited amount of spells with the real risk of “Nova-ing” all their power in the first couple conflicts
- If they have a familiar then that is another vulnerability (especially for the witch who needs their familiar to regain spells)
- A high dependency on the rest of the party to protect them

With a new player with 0% RPG experience using a wizard-like class could quite easily end up in an early death unless the DM fudges dice, the players shield her or everyone at the table helps her play her character.

As the Vazt poster remarked, is that a low level wizard can run out of spells very easily leaving the player with nothing to do....in fact even without spells a low level wizard-like class may end up having little do with the lack of front-line ability or the proper skill point
allocation.

Early character death or inability to participate in the action of the game meaningfully are two big red flags that could discourage a new player.

I think a cleric would be a good idea for a better “involved spellcaster” but I think I would suggest her being a paladin *ducks* It is a class with high offence and defense abilities, mystical/magic powers to heal and to harm and will gain a limited spell selection, a good “training” for future spell casting classes. And don’t freak her out about the LG alignment BS everyone goes on about, just tell her all she needs to do is act as an honest, decent caring person that always tries to the right thing for other people and she’ll be good

I disagree with StrangePackage’s point that “Give her options, let her pick. Once she has made her base decision, give her more options, and again, let her pick. This is her character, so let her decide how it works.”

As a new player she doesn’t have the knowledge or experience to know the consequences of those choices, to go that way you might as well pre-generate the character for her since, as the DM, you will know what will fit in your game the easiest.

The idea, if she absolutely has to be a wizard-like class, that she is someone's apprentice (an experienced player also playing the same class)isn't a bad idea, it lets the experienced player to "train" her with the class in and out of the game

My first question would be does she have any experience with any type of RPG but IMHO (based on her never playing any type of table-top RPG) as a long time DM who has taught/trained many to play AD&D and Pathfinder I wouldn't give her any type of magic user.

A new player can often become intimidated with the (perceived) pressure of learning the game's rules (especially combat rules) and the spotlight of playing a role in front of others. Add in many DMs and players, eager to share their love of the game, can overwhelm the new players with options and complicated storylines/strategies while they are struggling with the basic game. Thus a new player can easily become disheartened and give up on the game (I have lost a few players like that in the past).

If you don't (as a DM) expect a certain level of roleplaying for being an elf (I usually have new players play a human) I would let her be an elf and then strongly (but gently) advise her to be a fighter or maybe a rogue. In my experience they are the simplest class to play as their role n the party is simple, obvious and relatable. Any one that is a huge fan of fantasy knows how to bash things with weapons or how to be sneaky.

If she resists compromise and say after she has a good grasp of the game she can multiclass or roll up a new magic-using character.

Hope this helps

Hi, I made and paid for this order November 18. Has it been shipped out yet? I havn't gotten an email about it yet...and email I did get said it would be shipped out in less than 2 weeks..

Hi, just a quick question with a long build up....

Are there any DMs that have had any difficulties with maintaining the character levels (CLs) of each of their player’s characters vs the appropriate CL for each A0W adventure (i.e. the Whispering Cairn is for 4 players starting at Lv 1 and ending Lv 3)?

Unfortunately my group of players consists of 3 players I can rely on regularly to show up on game night (and 1-3 others that play once in a blue moon) so each of the core players have 2 characters each (so almost too many PCs for the Whispering Cairn), and with the “floaters” PCs the party can approach up to 10 PCs at a time.

Also each of the PCs are human and their backgrounds are deeply entwined into the background of Diamond Lake (we are playing the Greyhawk version), so each PC (to a degree) has a motivation to “clean” up Diamond Lake (the mayor, the mine managers, the Ebon Triad cultists, the gangs, the St. Cuthbert cultists, etc.). Thus I (with input from my players) have had and will be developing a whole “save Diamond Lake” side campaign...

Even with the large number of PCs (resulting in less role playing by the players and dividing up XP rewards to a large number of PCs) and having only done one small side adventure already (basically a “shades of things to come” battle with three tree trolls [taken from an older Dragon Magazine], 2 dire weasels and a [unidentified] cleric of the Ebon Triad in a valley tomb) my players have passed Lv 4 and have just defeated Filge, returned the Lands family bones and are on their way back to the Cairn (with the new knowledge of something going on in the Dourstone mine and that Smenk is involved in it somehow)

I am in no way loose and easy on XP rewards (I prefer to grant the most XP on smart thinking and role playing) but I have had to often split the party in half (for various reasons) and have been more stingy with XP rewards just to curtail the off chance they would be a (large) 5th level party by the end of Whispering Cairn...it looks like we will be evolving the group into a “character tree” concept like in the old Dark Sun campaigns (and with one player death so far [cleric/paladin of Heironeous who was raised already)

So back to the question: has anyone had problems balancing party CL vs the Adventure Lv, especially if they are do the more “enriched” campaign involving the plotters and schemers of Diamond Lake? I don’t mind adjusting the AP adventures for higher level encounters, but I feel it will become problematic in the future

Thanks for any replies

oh, a P.S.

has anyone noticed that Kullen and crew, to get fodder for Filge's necromantic spells, have to go out of town to get a handful of skeletons for him as the clergy of Wee Jas guards the Diamond Lake graveyard from defilement...while in the description of the Feral Dog (the tavern where Kullen and crew hang out) there is (and I quote) "A festering garbage pit in the sharp crags behind the building is said to hold the corpses of as many humans as dogs"

;P

this will be a great help! Thanks!!!

Kalin Agrivar wrote:

just a quick update..my Dungeon #146 arrived yesterday (on time as usual) and so did the replacement #353 (which I am very thankful for, thank you) so my orginal #353 never came and my #354 is still MIA, we'll see if #355 arrives in the next few weeks..

Thanks for the update! Keep me posted on the arrival of your 355.

Thanks!
cos

I recieved my #355 this past friday (yeah!) so my 354 never arrived... hopefully this Canadian glitch is shipping is over!

We will be releasing additional PDFs of back issues over the coming months. We still have a lot of rights issues to work through on older issues, so we can't say which ones yet, but stay tuned.

thats cool, thanks alot! :)

let most of us cool off, then we will be more civil after that.

I would have thought these boards would be cooling down too...but I'm afraid the demagoging (if that is a word) will continue (excusingly or not) for at least a while longer

here is from the "players Unite" thread, for anyone who missed it...

Guys,

I can definitely understand the emotions in this thread. Dragon and Dungeon have been an important part of many of our lives for a long time, and it's understandable that people are upset by this development.

That said, I feel it's my responsibility as publisher to point out that Wizards of the Coast has really been a good partner for the last five years. We had to get every single issue of the magazine approved by members of their business and design staff, and I can count on one hand the number of times we had to make significant changes to our material to satisfy their needs. They could have been much more hard-assed than they were, and I appreciate that very much.

I also appreciate that when they told us about their decision, they were also willing to extend Paizo's license several months in order that the Savage Tide Adventure Path reach its natural conclusion in Dungeon #150.

The folks on the design side at WotC are long-time gamers, and I'd like to hope that their connection to Dragon and Dungeon was as strong as that shown by many posters on this thread. Even some of their business folks play the game regularly. These are not black-hat-wearing villains, but good people. Many employees over there got their start on these magazines. Many of them are our friends.

So it's disturbing to hear readers issuing threats of physical violence and the like against Wizards, Renton, etc. Again, I really do appreciate all of the support our readers have graciously shown us since this announcement hit, but these messageboards have always been a place for rational, friendly discussion. I can appreciate that some of you aren't feeling very friendly right now, but I'd like to ask that people attempt to be civil here on Paizo.com.

Thanks,

Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC

Maybe, but if 4e is not significantly different from 3e, the old OGL will provide sufficient compatibility that you will see new products arise anyway. If 4e is excellent and closed, you'll probably see fragmentation of the market because a significant number of publishers (and players) are vested in OGL products.

That is what I would think too...which would also remind me of the RPG buisness around the end of TSR (but then again at that time I wasn't paying much attention to non-AD&D games)...but I would hazard a guess that 4.0 will be that different (rumors say more miniatures driven right?) as to be a whole new system...

Technically 3.0 has already been revised once (3.5)...we had 1st ed. than the revised 2nd ed. (which were compatibly similar enough to work together) and then the 3rd gen ed. 3.0 and the revised 3.5...

Yeah, but if it gets phased out by an excellent 4.0 product, then you're in a universe where 4e is the better product, so you should purchase it instead. The license really only becomes obsolete if no one is playing a variation of 3e anymore.

I guess so..but to me, what makes 3.0 great is the fact it is a OGL...without the Dragon/Dungeon magazines and a closed 4.0 system D&D goes stale again (like at the end of TSR) IMO...

With a little tweaking you could get your D&D characters to go through a Call of Cthulhu or even a Star Wars adventure... I'm pretty certain that as long as they stay in the "medieval fantasy" setting, you can convert it to any world you like...

Ultradan

exactly...it is usually not too hard to incorporate non-WoTC d20 material in a WoTC game...except often the OGL material is over-powered compared to WoTC standards..

WotC can't kill the OGL, it is irrevocable.

Legally (and I have no education about law and copyrights and such) I imagine you are right...but the OGL can be "phased" out by an excellent 4.0 product (or maybe not so excellent, with the right marketing)...like VHS vs Beta...if WoTC "closes" the license to 4.0 then the OGL could become obsolete...right?

Well then I'll set myself on fire in front of their offices.

You've got the extinguishers at the ready, right?

Right?

of course...in case the wand of fire extinguishing doesn't work...

but just on the side of safety...maybe we should use burning effigies instead? (not the undead version)

Not me. But bad for business is bad for business and even Hasbro would feel a public backlash. Televised protest would tell the Wall Street Journal that Hasbro can't keep its customers happy.

Bad PR is worth more than division profit, I'd suspect.

It also allows us a chance to show the world that we fine gamers are legion.

very true..but I think you would need someone also in the public eye to give this message...otherwise I think "the movement" wouldn't be much more than a 30 second quirky-intrest story about a few mad "RPG geeks"...the only time our hobby (or similiar hobbies) get mainstream attention is when there is death, murder or cults involved (IMHO)

well written Troy!

The Jade wrote:

What's more... a boycott draws attention to consumer unrest. Not great for stock value.

D&D books are not a big income stream for Hasbro. To the extent Wizards is mentioned in Hasbro's financial statements, it is always in the context of Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, and miniatures.

I totally agree...alot of peopel seem to forget that WoTC is more or less a front for Hasbro in the RPG/Fantasy Gaming market...

I'm not sure how effective a boycott would be too...only because WoTC is just one head of the beast of the monster known as Hasbro...and even if you could get 10% of the D&D consumers to boycott (that is the role players, not the novel readers or the miniature collectors, cause they have no reason to boycott) how does that actually hurt the mega-company that owns Magic, Pokemon, Barbie, Transformers, etc. (http://www.hasbro.com/default.cfm?page=brands) ...all you may be doing would be hurting D&D RPG sales and damaging your own beloved hobby

The only real “revenge” (per say) would be to make Paizo/Pathfinder (and there partnered OL d20 companies) a huge success, and maybe even a competitor to WoTC in the future...

But I totally agree with personal boycotts, save your $$$, don’t spend in on W0TC products and sample the rest of the d20 universe and find the “diamond in the rough” that are out there to enrich your game

How about a virus attack on the WoTC website? That could be the shot heard around the world.

I like the spirit of the idea but I don't think criminal acts would help anything

I'm as angry as anyone else here, but to play the devil's advocate for a second...

with Paizo now in full "Pathfinder" gear (design, advertising, writing, etc.), is bringing back Dragon and Dungeon even viable anymore? I imagine they have known about the license denial for a short while and are already deep in implementing their post-WoTC plans already

I totally support a boycott but I'm not sure getting the license back is even viable or would be even the right choice anymore...

I have a question kinda linked to the transition...

As I am probably thinking like many other people, I have decided to look into getting the last of the back issues I need ASAP

Between the old Dragon Mag CD (issues 1-250), PDFs I have downloaded here and actual back issues I could buy/find (I'd much rather have the real magazine than a PDF) I have the Dragon Magizine collection covered but I am missing # 254, 261, 262 and annual #1 and #5....they are all unavailable as either pdfs or back issues...

is it possible to offer them in PDF format (or acquire other back issues) before the license ends?

(my Dungeon collection though, still needs alot of work, but as there is not one WoTC book coming out in the next few months that I have any great interest for I think back-issues of Dungeon are where my RPG spending allowance will go towards)

I am also very saddened at this news...I just logged in and there it was...like a sudden kick in the groin...

But it doesn't surprise me...the amount of positive feelings I have for Hasbro and their product has been nose-diving in the last few years or so...all WoTC has seemed to be churning out recently are reprints of older products/ideas or optional crap that I will never use and I have been turning to other open d20 material for my role playing needs...

Paizo was the only "officially licensed" producer of D&D material that I am/was actually excited about ( I have/had subscriptions to both magazines) ...some magazines were better than others but I could reliably say that every magazine had at least something hat either inspired me or I directly incorporated into my campaigns...

so I will give Pathfinder a try, cherish my old Dragon memories ( like being 10 years old and buying Dragon #94 with the $$$ I had earned from mowing my departed grandma's lawn so long ago) and grieve for the loss of something that for no reason ended except for the greed and shortsightedness of a bunch of suites who believe in the "gotta catch them all" mentality more so than over 20 years of loyal customers and experience...IMO Dragon made D&D/AD&D bigger than what it could ahve ever been without it...

P.S. I've seen the "online" content of WoTC's D&D site...except for some Realms and Eberron stuff (usually written by the creators of those campaign worlds themselves), it has never impressed me enough to spend the cents to actually print it out...

(though I have recieved word that i have mail at home today, so my situation may change in a few hours)

just a quick update..my Dungeon #146 arrived yesterday (on time as usual) and so did the replacement #353 (which I am very thankful for, thank you) so my orginal #353 never came and my #354 is still MIA, we'll see if #355 arrives in the next few weeks..

Ok, so you guys keep telling me that magazines sent to Canada seem to take longer than in the US< and I can accept that it might be an extra couple of weeks, but this isn't making any sense to me.

I _still_ haven't received Dragon 353 (March), nor have I yet to receive Dragon 354 (April). We all know the way magazines work. If a magazine says March on it, that means it is on the stands in February. So a magazine that was on the stands in February STILL hasn't arrived half way through April!

This isn't a one-time thing, it seems to happen almost every month. Again, you have already told me, and others, that it takes longer to ship to Canada, and I would be happy to believe you, except that my Dungeon subscription arrives on time without fail every month!

Why is there no problem sending me my Dungeon subscription, but there is a problem sending me my Dragon subscription?

I understand that they are printed and shipped at different times, and I'm starting to think that maybe I should ask you to hold my Dragon magazine and ship it with my Dungeon mag.

I'm always two Dragon issues behind my Dungeon issues. Maybe someone in distribution/shipping should contact the US postal service and/or Canada Post and see what the problem is.

Thanks

I'm another Canadian dual-subscriber and that is exactly what is happening to me too (I was starting to fear someone was stealing them), the last Dragon I have recieved in the mail is #352

in fact Paizo was kind enough to send me another #353 as my subscribed issue was very late and the replacement hasn't arrived yet (that was almost a month ago)..I am also up-to-date with my Dungeon mags but the Dragon ones are MIA

(though I have recieved word that i have mail at home today, so my situation may change in a few hours)

thanks alot Jeff!

Hi, I also haven't recieved my issue #353, I'm going to have to go buy one off the rack soon...if there are any left...

Thank you very much Michelle!

oh, forgot to add...I'v been very happy with the service here with Paizo...I am just anxious to get those books and was wondering what was taking so long as it never has done so before...

Hi

I placed an order for 8 books on Dec 12 and my account says the order is still pending...how long does it take to verify an order??

umm, maybe a stupid question...why isn't it also in PDF format to be downloaded? still charge $5.00 for it and save use shipping costs?

I really hope more are printed out as it is pretty discouraging to me to run the SS series without it..

Sel Carim wrote:

There's a place in Dark Sun that gives me the whillies. Can't remember the name off the top of my head right now, but the upshot is that only "perfect" people can enter it. There is a magical feild in the are that causes anyone who does not meet its exacting requirements to deform into a one of the creatures that lives there. If I remember correctly, even being wounded is enough to fall short of the spells requirements.

It's called the Pristine Tower, and yeah anyone injured in its radius mutates into a horrible mutated thing. Though it was created by a real nazi, I don't think the tower cares about the perfection of those around it--just if you've been injured, and then it works its will upon your flesh. Heh.

Good memory, the Pristine Tower does have a "radiation" that horrible mutates any flesh the moment it is damaged, but the Tower was built by the ancient Halfling Lifeshapers (Biomancers) to harness the energy of their blue sun to destroy a brown algae plague that was poisoning their (then) ocean world. Using the tower turned the sun from blue to yellow.

Later on the "nazi" Raajet used the tower to make his Champions (epic warriors/wizards [defilers]) to lead his genocidal Cleansing Wars, turning the sun from yellow to red

Ravenloft gets my vote for worse place...the Demi-Plane itself was sentient, the purest evil and waited for your slightest slip to corrupt you, even the lower planes are only "naturally evil" not "actively" evil (though the natives there make up for it)

Kalin

Thanks alot! I have re-posted in Candlekeep now..

I forgot about the FR5 mention of the Creator Races (for the Nether Scroll description right?) I think the first "fleshed out" idea of the Days of Thunder was from the 2nd Ed. Faiths and Avatars book right?

I like your version, I forgot about the Fey opening gates (isn't that a recent 3.5 addition) and I think I will add that "Fey Factor" in my home-brew

I'm not a huge fan of extreme multi-planar tampering...the way I see it, in a brand new world, with little to no sentient faith coming from it (lack of sentient beings) it would be little attraction to multi-planar travellers...like one in a million unmarked planets (like Star Trek)

I think Toril was intended to be as Earth is in regards to laws of physics except being rich in magic, unlike Earth..thus Ed Greenwood's original idea of being one of the Forgotten Realms [Earth or Toril that is? ;)] and so I think evolution should be accounted into the pre-history of Toril as much as multi-planar seeding

thanks for the response!

Kalin

Sebastian wrote:

The Planescape Monstrous Compendiums are also in the same league. Two page spreads for each monster with a lot of flavor text and tangential information. Good stuff.

Here is a little related question to all -- You say that you don't need/want any more new monsters -- would you want a monster manual that updated a whole mess of 2nd edition monsters (there were a whole lot of "annuals" and then there were all the looseleaf pages from different worlds) and compiled them for 3rd edition?

Not all the 2nd ed. monsters, some were as odd or silly as some of the new 3rd Ed. ones

one thing I am pleasantly surprised with is that there have been many new 3rd Ed. monsters that never appeared in 2nd Ed. and the 2nd. Ed. translations have been a slow trickle

I'd rather a 1 page summary, like the looseleaf pages, for each monster, and a "-nomicon" book for each creature type...the Planescape "Manual" books (though there was a MC Outer Planes appendix, it was not a Planescape accessory and had really screwed up monster XPs) were much more detailed and fun to read, but 2 pages:monster would make a much huge hardcover book

and just a FYI, the 4 "MC Annuals" were 95% (or more) reprints from the Dragon Magizine, Dungeon/Polyhedron and the numerous 2nd Ed. Campaign worlds (Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Birthright, Mystra, etc.) and were generalized for base AD&D use. They really didn't give anything new.

Maybe for D&D 3.5 the annual can be reintroduced to convert/reprint the 2nd Ed. monsters for new players who don't have the old, out-of-print material. Or something like a regular Creature Catalogue in Dragon maybe.

Kalin

Hi, here is a Forgotten Realms question/post for those interested

In the last couple of years, with the Lost Empires of Faerun sourcebook and the Serpents Kingdoms sourcebook there has been a whole lot of revelation about the first age in the Realms, the “Days of Thunder”, the “prehistoric” age of Toril over -20,000 years before the present year in the Realms.

In the Days of Thunder there were a number of consecutive world-spanning empires of the “Creator Races” the first and greatest sentient races in the Realms (that created or de-evolved into many of the primitive humanoids and monsters in the modern age): The Sarrukh, The Batrachi, The Aearee, and The Fey. In earlier Realms canon the Dragons were a Creator Race but that appears to have been changed. Humanity is also a “Creator Race” but was not much more than Neanderthals during that time and only in the present history (in the Realms) have humans reached world-spanning potential.

Now, here is the way I see it, mostly using basic scientific theory and some general train of thought (Don’t you hate it when new canon infringes on your years-long home-brew? *l*)

The Creator Races are the true, native sentient species evolved on the planet of Aber-Toril. The has planet existed for millions of years and numerous species have naturally (Darwin’s theory) evolved into sentience...the most successful species being the orders (as in scientific orders) of the Sarrukh (reptile), the Batrachi (amphibian), the Aearee (bird) species, some of the Progenitor Races. I also maintain that what was to become humanity also had its own time in the Days of Thunder, a race I termed the Primians (human).

I do not see the Fey as a progenitor race as they are not “natural” (Darwin’s theory) but are usually accepted in RPGs as living embodiments of either nature or life...every D&D world has a fey population to a certain extent, depending on it’s youth and level of civilization. So the Fey as a progenitor is out.

I could go into the history of the Primians but that’s not the purpose of this post and this post is too long anyway so I’ll just finish by saying in my home brew Forgotten Realms campaign (that I have been building/rebuilding from 2nd to 3rd Ed., tinkering on and off with since 2001), the core of the campaign is the premise that there is a hidden, unbroken bloodline of Primian-Humanity that has existed for over 40,000, dedicated to the worship of the Sun, Moon and Nature and as the fallout of the Time of Troubles continue (ancient secrets awakening) the Primian dynasties must also reveal themselves...

So mostly this long post is for the FOR fans/players to get their thoughts on the Creator Races and how everything ancient is becoming new again in the Realms.

If you don't want to be flamed, I'd recommend reading all the other posts on the thread by experienced DMs expressing a different opinion than yours and try not to insult us by inferring that a preference for pre-generated monsters, NPCs, and lairs makes us less experienced.

I apologize strongly if I insulted anyone, I never meant to infer that any of you were less experienced nor that I was more experienced

While I was typing this post I was thinking of the young DMs with only a year or so of RGP experience that may depend more on pre-generated material than their own home brewed adventures as they learn to grasp the balance of stats, rules, etc. and as I said I have also and still do use pre-generated material when I do not have the time to whip something up from scratch.

The rambling point I was trying to make was I think that the format of the MM IV appears to have changed from past monster manuals and now has too much additional information that while would be useful for DMs, takes away from the (IMO) purpose of a monster manual, introducing new monsters. The pre-generated material would fit better in another type of accessory, like a Book of Lairs or a NPC accessory

Once again, I never meant to insult or offend any DM or role player.

Kalin

OK, I'll probably get flamed for this but here goes...and for the record it has been almost two years since MM III was published and I have been looking forward to the MM IV for just as long...

One of my little peeves with 3.0/3.5 is that every prestige class and some monsters are given an "example", like "here is the dread pirate DR and here is a dread pirate" or "here is the basilisk and here is the abyssal basilisk” (putting the spin more on the abyssal basilisk a separate species (like a troll to a scrag) and not so much as an advanced version of the basilisk with a template).

As an experienced DM I personally do not need all these “examples” as I am well capable of advancing and applying a PR or template but I also do appreciate that sometimes you need something pre-generated when you are flying by the seat of your pants. My peeve is more about the amount of space taken up in the books for these “examples”, how many pages that could be saved for more new monsters, templates, artwork or expanded biology/depth on a monster (which is sorely lacking, considering the 2nd Ed. monster compendiums, which is why (IMO) they are going into the “-nomicon” book series, to flesh out their monsters, which other d20 supplements have been doing for years now).

That’s why it is just a little peeve; I understand how less experienced DMs may need these pre-generated monsters and NPCs.

Or at least until I also studied the table of contents for the MMIV. I really hope I’m wrong about the new MM, I realize these judgments are only based by the ToC but anyone playing for the last 10 years could figure out the same

I am pretty disappointed in the MMIV for a number of reasons.

First it looks like 1/3 of the “new” monsters are not actually new but just old monsters with classes, prestige classes and old templates. Unlike, for example, the greathorn minotaur which seems to be a true variant of a minotaur, there are seven older monster races chosen for “new monsters”. The drow, githyanki, gnoll, lizardfolk, ogre, ogre and yuan-ti are all represented this way and by my quick count, there are 26 “new versions of old monsters” are in the MMIV...something any DM with a bit of experience could do on their own...that a 1/3 less monsters that could have been

(my gut tells me many of these drow, orcs, lizardfolk etc. are from the “fantastic location” and other recent D&D adventure modules but since I don’t own any of them I can’t prove this)

Next there appears to be 10 (or so) variant “examples” of the new monsters, like the abyssal basilisk to the basilisk. This is close to a dozen more pages that could have been new monsters

And last but not least are the 7 “sample lairs”...this is what really ticks me off. Go back to the 1st Ed. original monster manuals and fiend folio (which had about no depth), the 2nd Ed. equivalent compendiums (which had much depth) there were no lair, stronghold, etc. examples...a monster manual was about presenting MONSTERS, not mini-hooks and adventures...there were some books for that, they were called BOOK OF LAIRS. There is no reason to have “lairs” in the MMIV, it takes up space and artwork that should have been reserved for new creatures and templates

Now don’t get me wrong, I think a “book of lairs” accessory for each 3rd Ed. MM/FF would be a great idea (especially in a soft cover like the early 3.0 products) and accessories with NPCs (races and monster NPCs) using new races, monsters and prestige classes are also cool (like the old Enemies and Allies 3.0 or earlier NPC anthologies like Hall of Heroes) but in a new Monster Manual it only seems like extra and unnecessary crunch added in, like they were trying to do too much

It wouldn’t surprise me that there is practically less than 50% the amount of new creatures in the MMIV than in the earlier monster accessories

So there you have it...but on the bright side there seems to be around 56 new monsters and 2 templates that are new, look cool and should fit in well (I don’t know what to make on the spawn of tiamat yet). I’ll still be buying the MM IV (my players and myself all love new monsters) but I hope any future MM V will go back to the tried and true structure of a MM

Kalin

P.S. I do really hope this will be a good book

Since it is spreading over the message boards, does anyone want to decide upon a (serious :P ) definition of what a munchkin player is?

Kalin

Munchkinism and power-gaming came along well before EQ was a thought in somebody's noggin. It has more to do with a person's...well, personality (or lack of it) than anything else, I think. I'm sure video games, in all their various incarnations, have had quite the impact with their "bigger better faster badder" mentality, but it's not exactly new.

I agree, it's been going on for decades...but I see "munchkinism" and "power gaming" as two seperate states of mind

a power gamer wants the character with the high ability scores, the big weapons, best armor and the best set of feats and PRs to make him the "BEST", the other type of power gamer I have experienced is the player that wants the in-game power (fame, wealth, prestige, rulership, respect, etc.) that adventuring would bring him/her...e.g. demanding an audience with the king or having all the townswomen swoon when you rid into town...a power gamer usually role-plays their character too

a "munchkin" gamer wants the "COOLEST" character, the one that practically improbable to exist and is totally unusual from about every other being in the game...the LG half-dragons/half/demon/vampiric drow fighter/wizard/bard/psion...a munchkin gamer (in my experience) normally doesn't roleplay their character (I don't know how many thri-kreen fighter dart specialists characters I’ve seen role-played with human personalities and idioms)

A power gamer group will be usually a consist of "average" races (PH core races) but with the best, most kick-a** feats, armor, weapons and spells that make them the best at what they do and as close to undefeatable as possible

A munchkin group will consist of the drow ninja, half-dragon warlock, warforged barbarian, half-ogre fighter and any other illogical race/class combo that will make them "cool"

a good DM can run a fine game session with power gamers, he/she just needs "power foes" to counter the players but a group of munchkins, they will just get tired of the novelty of their character and the (relatively) slow pace of dice-and-paper RPGs and go back to MMO-RPGs or other video games

My 3 cents

Kalin

I don't know if this helps but I remember when 3.0 first came out there was a free WotC flier at the games shop that had conversions from 2nd Ed. to 3.0 Ed. Unfortunately I lost my flier...

maybe those rules are still floating around on the WotC web site?

While all of the classes are good to play they do represent a growing trend of some of the new classes of making the older/core classes obselete or underpowered. Principally, I'm talking about classes like the warmage, dread necromancer, and beguiler cutting the sorcerer down to nothing with their extra abilities and all, and the duskblade making the classic fighter/wizard multiclass combination completely pointless. Everything the muticlass character can do the duskblade can do better. If you don't believe me just watch the duskblade in actual game play sometime and just ponder in awe at the possibilities.

Amen my friend...especially about making the older/core classes obselete

and just as pointless are most prestige classes then, as now you have alternate core classes doing what they do, but much better

the PHII is an ok book, for an experienced DM with too many books in his bookshelf there wasn't too much in it for me (some of the feats were nice) but I have 2 words for the duskblade, beguiller and dragon shaman : Kid Bait

as a DM I do not allow the duskblade and beguiller class in the game, until at least until WotC creates more crunch books with gestalt base classes that my players would buy on their own

Kalin

Isn't that article a bit out of date? It was sent out in July, 2002. That was nearly four years ago. If the falling sky was imminent then, why hasn't it fallen? Are the FR books of the past year of lower quality than those published 4 years ago?

I know it was an older article, and in all honesty, Silver Marches wasn't their best book, it was almost a total reprint of 2nd Ed. cannon (especially "The North" box set) but I was more saddened of how the idiots (oops, sorry, I mean suits) that run WotC can take their #1 D&D seller, their bread and butter, and screw with it to get few $$$ more...there is a reason why it has been #1 for what? 15 years? All to sell a few more books

And the last few years in FOR RPG products? It depends if you are a new post 3rd Ed. player or a continuing pre-3rd Ed. player (I’m an old one): A few supplements were really well done well (like Serpent Kingdoms, almost 100% new, useful cannon and Lost Empires of Faerun), a few almost as well done (Powers of Faerun, Champions of Valor and Ruin) but most still have been just rehashes of past books with 40% toys, 40% old cannon, 20% new cannon (Races of Faerun, Shining South, Underdark, etc.)

I find the theory preposterous myself. The people that run WotC are more informed with respect to gamer trends than any other people in the industry.

I basically agree with that in the fact some of WotC were TSR and/or game designers in the beginning...but I have worked under boards and advisory committees myself that have had no idea what they are advising, I'm sure there is a dash of that too in WotC too

They realize who buys their games and are just as interested in the long term success of the hobby as we are.

I disagree with...and the example of George Lucas peeing all over his Star Wars legacy just for more $$$ is a perfect example of caring for your “long term success”...Jar Jar Binks anyone?

There is a point in any business, when people get greedy and forget the spirit in which they started the business, it's called "selling out"...like how WotC sells out it's dedicated core RPG buyers for flash-in-the-pan kid fads like Pokemon, Yugi-Oh, Duel Masters, etc.

Just like in pro-sports...the #1 goal of the owners are to make $$$, they buy, move, break-up and rebuild teams and athletes while screwing over their core fans, the people that made their team a success in the first place

It is more like they are interested in the long term success of the business, I agree that D&D will never really disappear, but I do believe if D&D became a “no-seller” then WotC would go from fad to fad until they had one (Yugi-Oh the RPG anyone?) while the designers would leave and start their own RPG game (like most of the d20 systems today)

The game (in one form or another) will be the same, but good campaign worlds will be abandoned for munchkin ones (hint hint, nudge nudge)

WotC is a company that took what could have been a flash in the pan fad game (magic) and have kept it going for over 10 years (and still growing strong). There are points in the history of that game where they developed sets or cards that were too powerful, but they understood that a power spiral would only destroy their business and pulled back from the brink each time.

Don’t get me going about Magic...I still miss the good old days *sniff*

And thanks for the discussion!

Kalin

On a related note: Why is Tyr in FR? Is he on some kind of immortals-exchange program?

OK...let start:

if you go back to the 2nd Ed. Planescape and Spelljammer: each "world" in D&D in the Prime material plane is enclosed in a sphere ("called capital "s" Sphere, each about the with of a solar system, give or take), each Sphere floating in a rainbow sea of flamable energy (the Phlogeston [sp??]) so each world (Toril, Oerth, Krynn) is isolated from each other...each Sphere also has a "caretaker", a pseudo-power refered to as an "Over-Power" (Ao is the Overpower of Toril/For)

to get from Oerth (Greyhawk) to Toril (Forgotten Realms)you can either "planes walk" through one of the Planes (usually Shadow or Ethereal), use a portal/gate or hop on a spelljamming ship (space ship) and travel out of your Sphere to the other Sphere

ok, next:

2nd Ed. Planescape also describes in detail how gods need faith to survive, to stay "alive" and though the outer/inner planes are infinite, the faith there is not true faith (kinda hard to have true faith when you can see your god directly) so faith from the Prime is "pure" and all gods covet the faith from Prime worlds

now there are two types of gods, gods that start out on a prime world (like Torm in FR, Vecna in GH or Kiri-Jolith in DL) or an older god whose "religion" is planespanning (like Odin, Zeus, Set, Marduk).

Prime gods are relativly small fish in the multiplanar scheme of things and a "greater" (divine strength) prime god (like Bane or Mystra) outside of their world's Sphere can be really just a demigod due to practicle lack of followers and faith, compared to Zeus or Odin

On the otherhand a multiplanar god, say Tyr of the Norse panthenon, is dieing for lack of followers and faith, decides to flee to a prime world (a big fish in a small pond)to reap "prime faith" and eithor survive or recharge before entering the multiversal rat-race again. Another reason to leave for a prime world is due to a multiplanar god being a weak, grade B god in comparison of their panthenon and leaving for greener pastures, without being under the thumb of their ruling god

oh yeah, and the "Over-god" of a Sphere's main duty is to "shepard" the powers in their Sphere, controling who comes in and out and who becomes brand new godlings

In the Forgotten Realms :

Silvanus and Oghma are celtic (both were dieing)
Mielikki and Lovitar are finnish (both fled their panthenon)
Tyr norse (dieing)
Tymora and Beshaba greek (2 halves of Tyche)(they kinda fled, long story)

the egyptian and babalyonian gods in For, thats a whole different story

Hope that helps

Kalin

P.S. sorry for typing errors, no spellcheck
P.P.S. always thought Sif (norse) would make a good For goddess, no one has her portfolio and she's be popular

I don't really "get" this pulp/noir thing. I googled it; looks like its old adventure fiction and black-and-white crime detective movies. Those came and went before I was even born, how am I even meant to work out how to combine the two? Give me old-fashioned wizards and elves any day.

The best way to describe it is :

"pulp" refers to the old pulp magazines in the early 20th century, which were more like short story anthologies in magazine form than a true magazine (like readers digest). one of the big draws of "pulp" stories were the swashbuckling-like adventure stories, like Allan Quartermain (King Solomon’s Mines), Tarzan, Flash Gordan, even Conan. They were stories where when things got "adventurous" they REALLY got adventurous, almost over the top...and the stories were usually over the top too, the villains were the worst type of villain and were usually out to destroy/conquer the world...it was almost like having multiple climaxes in the storyline...

the Indiana Jones movies are the best example of a "pulp" story...quiet story telling then sudden and intense action (listen to the background music to know when it's happening)

"noir" is also a style of story invented in the early 20th century, mostly similar to a crime or spy movie, where the "hero" (usually more of an anti-hero") is in danger, needs to do something, and can trust nobody...noir stories are also usually not happy endings, usually bittersweet, and often leave big holes in the storyline unfulfilled

most Alfred Hitchcock movies are noir movies, my favorite is Chinatown with Jack Nicholson

so "pulp-noir" is a dark, no-one-can-be-trusted movie with allot of over-the-top action filled sequences that the hero shouldn't really survive (that’s why the Action Points were invented, to reflect that)

They say that the movie Casablanca is the best pulp-noir movie there is, it IS in the top five movies ever (ever!) made but it is more noir than pulp IMO

hope that helps

Kalin

In the past couple of weeks I have been griping that munchkin/power player gamers ruin a RPG in the long run, they first demand cheesy munchkin products, which drives out better sourse material and then get easily bored with the game and abandon it, lowering sales and closing or minimizing RPG settings, like Greyhawk, Ravenloft or Dark Sun...which is the danger of all the cheesy accessories WoC is producing today, and the Eberron campaign world.

Yesterday I was checking out the Candlekeep site (haven't been there in a while) and found this article, which parallels my point, making me even sadder, as the Realms always have been the most richest of the campaign worlds

http://www.candlekeep.com/
- Alaundo's Library
- The Scribe's Gatherings
in the Bard's Rumours
"Is the Future of the Realms at Stake?" by Sean K Reynolds

Kalin