Because of delivery problems with both magazines, prior to Paizo, I am reluctant to renew my subscriptions. I was just about to change that and subscribe. I will difinitly think about the Pathfinder stuff.Pathfinder is a book, not a magazine, so it won't be shipped as Periodicals class mail. That's a REALLY good thing for you and me both.
-Vic.
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Everyone wants to write for Paizo over Wizards. You're going to knock them out with Pathfinder. Let 'em feel the sting of your profits and the coming street cred.
PDFs are for a younger audience that bitmap the things in 5 minutes and distribute them for free. Watts is suffering from corporate dillusion if he can't read the writing on the walls. You don't mess with a vibrant scene, a loyal culture, and an esteemed tradition. Mark my words, this is a New Coke move and they're going to choke on it.
I'm not usually one for this, but this seems like the ideal time to suggest a letter writing campaign to Watts to express our outrage!
I'm not usually one for this, but this seems like the ideal time to suggest a letter writing campaign to Watts to express our outrage!
I agree with your idea. However, if Watts actually checks the WotC boards then we might not need to take out the stationary.
Thumbs down WotC
My gamming group doesn't use computers at the gamming table, if I want what WotC is offering I'll need to print it off, and I don't see myself doing that . . . never mind buying digital property. Two months ago I had a major FUBAR with my computer. I lost everything. That doesn't happen with magazines or books.
Reading through Dragon magazine made me feel part of a larger group before the internet. I love the internet gamming community but now I feel as though the internet is robbing me of my magazine.
Scott Rouse is human, fully capable of making mistakes, but I'm not very pleased with him right now.
Many of us found that Dragon, then Dungeon magazine became our favorite part of D&D. Too bad we're too old to enter into their financial models. Apparently young guys who DL everything for free is the heart of the market. Good luck with that.
Lake is a WotC trademark. Improper use is likely to get you sued. Try "Go jump in a pond" or, better yet, "Go jump in a sewage filled pit."
Or, "Go jump in a liquid-containing-hole-in-the-groud fully compatible with version 3.5 of the world's most popular roleplaying game"
Eric,
I have not missed an issue of Dungeon or Dragon in about seven years but I prefer to contribute to keeping my local gaming shop alive and therefore purchase both there. Will the 1st issue of Pathfinder be available at local gaming shops or is it subscriber only?
Thanks
CEO
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Lisa, I must say I am shocked by todays announcement but I know you will go forward with the new endeavor.I must admit I will miss the magazines also, on that note will the forums remain for people to discuss the adventures?..it would be a shame to loose all the great information.
The forums aren't going anywhere! If anything, they will get better as we implement some cool ideas we have had floating around Paizo's halls for about a year or so!
This may be the end of an icon in our hobby (my first Dragon was #51, and my first subscriber copy was #62), but with every death there is a rebirth and I am excited to see what the future holds!
-Lisa
Were the magazines losing money?
Absolutely not. As far as I know, the sales of the magazines were not a factor in this decision. We're actually very pleased with the sales of the magazines, and in particular with our growing subscriber lists.
Here's hoping that enough readers decide to give Pathfinder and our GameMastery Modules a try. We're extremely excited about the new opportunities we'll have with the new arrangement.
--Erik
I'm sorry but I cannot pay twenty dollars for a magazine. Your asking us to pay over one hundred dollars for an adventure path when we used to get one for forty. I guess its back to homemade adventures for me. Thanks for the best magazines I've read and I'm sorry to hear this news. No more WOTC junk will be bought with my money. I will give the money from my DnD Fund toward back issues until you guys run out.
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Hello to the Great Staff at Paizo,
I like so many others feel like the rug has been pulled out from under me. I'm very upset that it appears WoTC have decided to discontinue their deal with Paizo. I have deliberately not purchased a subscription of either Dragon or Dungeon because I have wanted to support my local game store (SGC) and purchase the magazines from them for the past few years.
Will Pathfinder be available to my local games store here in Sydney, Australia? I would wish to support both Paizo and SGC in this matter.
In addition, what will happen to the current messageboard setup? I'm still half-way through the Age of Worms and was looking forward to running my group through Savage Tide. The messageboards for each are invaluable and would be greatly missed.
And finally, a really special note of appreciation to ALL the Paizo staff for making Dragon and Dungeon the pinnacle of game publishing since 2002. I like so many others truly appreciate your efforts and will continue to support your future endeavours. Many companies must look at the loyal following you guys have and be incredibly jealous.
Best Regards
Sam Phipps (Herremann the Wise)
Many of us are in our thirties. We can afford a $20 book. Paizo will get my money before Wizards does. I only wish they had even more monthly periodicals lined up.
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CEO
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Will Pathfinder be available to my local games store here in Sydney, Australia? I would wish to support both Paizo and SGC in this matter.
Absolutely! We will be selling Pathfinder into all the distribution channels that we sell our other products into. We have a distributor in Australia and I am sure he will be picking Pathfinder up. So please go to your local store and ask them to carry our products. We are more than willing to sell to them!
-Lisa
Many of us are in our thirties. We can afford a $20 book. Paizo will get my money before Wizards does. I only wish they had even more monthly periodicals lined up.
I am one year from thirty and 20 dollars a month can buy me alot of blank paper for me to come with my own ideas with. Just because I dont want to pay 20 a month for a magazine/book doesnt mean I cant afford it.
It will be with a heavy heart that I say goodbye to Dragon and Dungeon magazines. Having read them for most of my life, I like others will definately feel a void there.
I will not try to fill that void with a replacement, but I will seek out Pathfinder in the hopes it can become a new fast friend, albeit a bit different.
Good luck to the team at Paizo. Even when not playing they sure have given myself some rollicking good adventures to read and dream about running/playing in.
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I bought WotC products to support my playing of Dungeon adventures, not the other way around.
This has become true for me as well. In fact, I think a great number of people are in the same boat.
As other people have stated, I think WotC have really pulled the wrong lever on this one. What an absolute shame.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
Wow. I look up at the racks and racks of these magazines and all I can say is Wow.
I won't ask anyone not to be mad at WotC, but please remember (as has been mentioned) that they saved the game, if not the industry. What I do ask is that those of you who aren't totally pissed at Wizards please give this online thing a shot. I don't really like the idea either, but this game has taught me, maybe more than anything, to adapt.
Wow. It still hurts. I'm going to miss Dungeon and Dragon. Like I miss buying boxed sets of books and maps.. guess everything changes eventually.
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To Lisa: kudos for putting together an outstanding team of creators, and then giving them the go-ahead to craft their epic-level magic.
To the whole Paizo crew: thank you for the love that you've so clearly poured into these magazines. They are the only two to which I have subscribed in the past several years. Even if one of those plastic-wrapped treasures arrived in my mailbox just days before, every time I walked down the drive and opened it up, I had a hope of finding another waiting there for me.
To Erik and James in particular: I can think of no higher compliment than to say, in the past few years, I've gone from, "How can I convert this to Eberron?" (a world which continues to intrigue and inspire me) to, "Man, I have really got to track down and spend quality time with some of this Greyhawk stuff."
Here's to the hope that you'll get the license to produce new Greyhawk materials.
And a second "huzzah!" to your new enterprise of Pathfinder. Count me in.
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Dragon got me from reading fnatasy books and looking at my uncle's pewter figures and the 3.0 phb sitting on the shelf at home to owning 20 WOTC books and DMing age of worms and now savage tide. I find it ironic that just after I go from a $9 an hour job to a $24 an hour job this comes out, its like it was my destiny to be able to continue getting your products. (My familiy will hit me when I say that it was because I would have to spend more money on gaming stuff that I actually started looking for a better job again, but oh well....) I salute you, and am looking forward to picking up a Setting that I know will feel like D&D instead of star wars (sorry but thats my take on Eberron) an will be put out by people who care! I currently play at a game store and 4 weeks out of the month paizo material outsells WOTC material.... and thats just the magazines! the only week WOTC outsells is when new books come out... now I can't wait to see the book sales scew.. D&D minis being used for pathfinder outselling all wotc books...
I'm 38. Once every two weeks I go get my D&D magazines. And I read them. That's what I do. I don't like getting jerked around. Now I can't do what I do. I don't ask for much, just a freakin' magazine, you bastards!!!!!
So I'm mad.
I have a routine too. I buy each month's issue at full price from my local game store. {I do this because I want my local gamestore to get some revenue too and stay in business.}
Then, I goto the coffee shop and read them, and hold them as we talk about them. I like being able to carry them, and set them on the table when we game.
How is WotC going to replace this experience for me? This is what gets the cash flows from me. I am certainly not going to pay to read .pdf's on the web.
I feel very sick.
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Wow, just wow.
I've been following Dragon since it was the Strategic Review...
The adventure paths never appealed to me much, but I've taken the Pathfinder option for my subs (so there's your chance to really astound me!)just to show a little support and solidarity for the Paizo folk, who have done a great job as caretakers for Dungeon and Dragon.
I sold my first printing of the original brown box D&D rules at Gen Con last year. I knew the hobby had changed, indeed it has to if it is to survive. I realized that I had no one to pass them on to. I was actually a little misty-eyed about it too. Then I realized that what has kept me playing since 1974, through all those editions and versions (and yes I bought and played every one), was the people and the excitement and the sense of wonder and the imaginative vision and the fun. Not the printed and bound rules.
I'm losing some very old and comfortable friends in Spetember; I will mourn them. I hope that Pathfinder will wow me. I expect that at the very least I'll always find something interesting and useful for my game therein.
Whatever WOTC does cannot take away what really matters to me in gaming.
You just can't kill that spirit. Good-bye my friends.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm going to go get drunk and go to sleep.
I have nothing more to say that is good for anyone at this time, so I need to just shut up and leave it alone, before I end up getting banned for asshattedness.
Peace.
You are aware that you haven't said anything even close to offensive, right? I mean, if they aren't going to ban me for my every day level of asshattedness, I think you're go jump in the lake comment will fly under the radar too.
I tell you though Heathy, never have I been so disheartened that we inhabit a virtual community. I sure the hell would've liked to hit a bar tonight with you, Aubrey, F2K, Saern (assuming he could get in), I've Got Reach, the Jade, Moff, Sexi, Fakey, Celestial Healer, kahoolin, KnightErrentJr., Tensor, Ultradan, FS, GGG and all the other regulars (to whom I send my apologies for not calling out individually) and talk about this. It's like we should have a funeral or wake or something.
Edit: add some regulars I missed.
Many of us are in our thirties. We can afford a $20 book. Paizo will get my money before Wizards does. I only wish they had even more monthly periodicals lined up.I am one year from thirty and 20 dollars a month can buy me alot of blank paper for me to come with my own ideas with. Just because I dont want to pay 20 a month for a magazine/book doesnt mean I cant afford it.
I was posting in every thread that came up. My thoughts were just a continuation from from something I'd just been talking about with another gamer over the phone. I followed The Wise in and vented. Never saw your post.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Many of us are in our thirties. We can afford a $20 book. Paizo will get my money before Wizards does. I only wish they had even more monthly periodicals lined up.I am one year from thirty and 20 dollars a month can buy me alot of blank paper for me to come with my own ideas with. Just because I dont want to pay 20 a month for a magazine/book doesnt mean I cant afford it.
Ah, so you're cheap. That's totally different.
If it's worth your money, buy it. If it's not, don't. Simple as that.
I tell you though Heathy, never have I been so disheartened that we inhabit a virtual community. I sure the hell would've liked to hit a bar tonight with you, Aubrey, F2K, Saern (assuming he could get in), I've Got Reach, the Jade, Moff, Sexi, Fakey, Celestial Helaer, FS and all the other regulars (to whom I send my apologies for not calling out individually) and talk about this. It's like we should have a funeral or wake or something.
You know what's weird? I am not a big drinker . . . I might have a beer or a shot two or three times A YEAR, and yet, after hearing this news, I kind of want to slink off somewhere and get, what the dwarves might say, hammered. Its really strange, but telling, that a magazine (or two in this case) can engender this kind of response.
I don't know what to say.
While I no longer own every issue of Dungeon, I was there from issue 7 on, and had back-issues from 1 to 6.
It has been a part of my gaming life for SO LONG!
Dragon, even longer (since about issue 73).
Good God...
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Pathfinder sounds good and all, and sure, web content is nice...
But this is a passing of an era.
What's next, Marvel Comics giving us Spider-Man ONLY on the web?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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You know what's weird? I am not a big drinker . . . I might have a beer or a shot two or three times A YEAR, and yet, after hearing this news, I kind of want to slink off somewhere and get, what the dwarves might say, hammered. Its really strange, but telling, that a magazine (or two in this case) can engender this kind of response.
Same here - I almost never drink. But I tell you, I am seriously bummed out about this. The pet comparison that people have been making is apt.
The forums aren't going anywhere! If anything, they will get better as we implement some cool ideas we have had floating around Paizo's halls for about a year or so!
This may be the end of an icon in our hobby (my first Dragon was #51, and my first subscriber copy was #62), but with every death there is a rebirth and I am excited to see what the future holds!
-Lisa
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Lisa,
I read a response by Erik who answered that this was not necessarily happening because of a need to cut losses, and in fact readership was increasing.
Trying to understand this, in broad brush strokes, from a financial standpoint taking Net Present Value as an example, what caused Wizards of the Coast to shift away from positive cash flow and make the decision to take on what seems (to an outsider) to be huge risk with an untried product?
Now that this decision is public can you please tell us your opinion of what WotC is trying to accomplish or subvert?
Best regards.
I like being able to carry them, and set them on the table when we game.
How is WotC going to replace this experience for me? This is what gets the cash flows from me. I am certainly not going to pay to read .pdf's on the web.
I feel very sick.
I agree 100%.
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You are aware that you haven't said anything even close to offensive, right? I mean, if they aren't going to ban me for my every day level of asshattedness, I think you're go jump in the lake comment will fly under the radar too.I'm going to go get drunk and go to sleep.
I have nothing more to say that is good for anyone at this time, so I need to just shut up and leave it alone, before I end up getting banned for asshattedness.
Peace.
Yeh. Guess you're right. I just don't know what to say without cursing.
It's like the Lone Ranger shot Silver, to make glue or something.
It makes no friggin' sense.
I'm lost for words. I keep wanting to go to my parent's house 12 hours away and pull out my gold early 90's best of Dragon softcover. just to look at it.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Lisa,
I read a response by Erik who answered that this was not necessarily happening because of a need to cut losses, and in fact readership was increasing.
Trying to understand this, in broad brush strokes, from a financial standpoint taking Net Present Value as an example, what caused Wizards of the Coast to shift away from positive cash flow and make the decision to take on what seems (to an outsider) to be huge risk with an untried product?
Now that this decision is public can you please tell us your opinion of what Wizards is trying to accomplish or subvert?
Best regards.
It really depends on the terms of the license. It's entirely possible that WotC made very little cash off the licensing rights and lost sales to the Paizo products. Businesses rarely act out of spite; WotC believed the bird in the bush was worth more than the one in the hand. Keep in mind, WotC receives no cash off of Pathfinder or any of Paizo's other unlicensed product lines.
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And I'm tired of people saying, "well, if you don't support WOTC, you don't support gaming. Gaming would cease to exist without WOTC. So you see Mr. McGoo, walking around knocking over all those expensive Ming vases and breaking everything? Did you see Mr. McGoo put his cane through Van Gogh's Sheaves of Wheat? Clap for him!!! Clap for Mr. McGoo!!! Do a little dance, because if you don't clap for Mr. McGoo, GAMING AS WE KNOW IT IS OVER FOREVER!!!"
I tell you though Heathy, never have I been so disheartened that we inhabit a virtual community. I sure the hell would've liked to hit a bar tonight with you, Aubrey, F2K, Saern (assuming he could get in), I've Got Reach, the Jade, Moff, Sexi, Fakey, Celestial Healer, kahoolin, KnightErrentJr., Tensor, Ultradan, FS, GGG and all the other regulars (to whom I send my apologies for not calling out individually) and talk about this. It's like we should have a funeral or wake or something.Edit: add some regulars I missed.
Right there with you, Seb.
And I'm tired of people saying, "well, if you don't support WOTC, you don't support gaming. Gaming would cease to exist without WOTC. So you see Mr. McGoo, walking around knocking over all those expensive Ming vases and breaking everything? Did you see Mr. McGoo put his cane through Van Gogh's Sheaves of Wheat? Clap for him!!! Clap for Mr. McGoo!!! Do a little dance, because if you don't clap for Mr. McGoo, GAMING AS WE KNOW IT IS OVER FOREVER!!!"
Sooooo . . . I take it the drinking has commenced?
... Keep in mind, WotC receives no cash off of Pathfinder or any of Paizo's other unlicensed product lines.
Exactly, so why would they close the door completely??
I am on the outside obviously, and I am sure it must make financial sense to them -- just wondering what direction that sense is running in..
( ha! I just realized I am trying to Rationalize my feelings )
we do need a wake or something just put me in a sad mood this really did i know its just a mag but they have been apart of my games sence i started almost 15 years not as long as some but i do need a drink tonight i think end of an era indeed my friends
Sober as a judge (who doesn't drink). But in my head, we're all drinking together.
Nope. I'm sober.
Sorry Heathy, just trying to lighten the mood a bit . . .
Lisa, very cool about the forums..I know we go sometimes years and dont use modules until later.. I was just concerned what had already been made for Dungeon and Dragon would maybe legally have to be removed from the Paizo site..downloads etc. or to make room for the new stuff..maybe a archive would be implemented?
which brings up the question of open gaming license WOTC has..since this has happened makes me think they could pull the plug on this at any given time..
While Paizo has done good work on the magazines, Pathfinder is simply not something I'm interested in. I have no particular use for a monthly campaign book. I guess once my subscription runs out, that's it.
What is the worst part is that WotC forgot something important... The sales of Dragon Mag and Dungeon Mag helped sell their products. Many of us bought a new product from WotC because it was showcased in those mags. That is a MARKETING and ADVERTISING opportunity and tool lost by those fools at WotC. ~shakes my head~ Fools!
Plus, it helped keep people interested in the game even if they were not playing.
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The best thing in D&D is gone. Ouch. I don't know what else to say.I think I might cry.
Every month I go to the mailbox in anticipation of either Dungeon or Dragon magazine being there waiting. It is one of the things I most look forward to every single month and has been for the past 15 years. I really feel like I just lost a member of my family.
I have to say that you are singing my song. After long days of drudgery at work to see those plastic-wrapped magazines just warms me up inside.
I will probably give Pathfinder a chance. Although at $20 a month, I'm wary. It does sound like Paizo is trying to combine components of Dragon and Dungeon into Pathfinder and maybe that will work. That said, one of my favorite things about Dungeon was having a variety of adventures ... not just one lone adventure path, regardless how good the adventure path is.
I would like to think that Paizo could rise from this occasion and still print A-grade "Dragonesque" and "Dungeonesque" open game content magazines (or merge them back into one) at an affordable price.
Hecks, moving into OGL, Paizo could perhaps even tackle d20 Modern and bring that back into the mix. Paizo could push the gauntlet, creating its rules variants and the like. It may not be "official D&D", but it'd be OGL, and more so, it'd be Paizo.
...As for WotC and what they've done, I believe that the company is feeling the pressures that TSR felt when it became over-extended. I suspect WotC sees Dragon and Dungeon as useful pools of cash flow that it could claim for itself, as opposed to allowing a 3rd party source handle it. That said, I doubt WotC is going to listen to us from its secured isolated compound in Renton.
...Maybe WotC's online content will be good. Maybe it won't. Verdicts out.
Still ... bummer.
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The only problem I see with Pathfinder is the price... I got a year of Dungeon and Dragon for $75 - that's $6.25 a month for 2 magazines!! Pathfinder is $20 a month, and even at their 30% off subscription price, that's still $14 a month - double what I paid for the other two. And what with being an poorly paid student, I need every help I can get with cash.I definitely understand the bit about needing cash. You'd be surprised how little room there is between the cashflow of a student and an RPG company publisher. :)
Here are some points to condier about Pathfinder:
• Each volume is a perfect-bound book with a cardstock cover and a much thicker quality of paper. It will be _much_ more durable than a magazine.
• Unlike the magazines, Pathfinder's content will not be subsidized by ads, resulting in more content for you.
• Pathfinder will include content similar to that found in both Dragon and Dungeon. It's perhaps more accurate to say that it is a replacement for both magazines, rather than a replacement for just Dungeon.
But yeah, Pathfinder is more expensive than Dragon and Dungeon. There's no getting away from that. We believe it will be a higher-quality product and we think it will be more than worth the price. A better comparison in terms of value is probably a product like WotC's "Red Hand of Doom."
Erik, I don't doubt the quality of Paizo's work. What I'm concerned with is having each monthly issue being just one adventure path. It would be nice to have Low/Med/High repeated in Pathfinder. That was once thing about Dungeon that I found so endearing.
Sooooo . . . I take it the drinking has commenced?
I'm finished. Just killed my last Sam Adams. Had a six pack tonight...never realized how much I cared emotionally about these two magazines...seeing them die live and in person bothers me more than it should. As I told Onrie--I paid for my first Dragon subscription in 1981 by mowing lawns and cleaning pools in the apartment complex where I lived at age 14. F&@+, I'm SAD over magazines! How pathetic is that.