Pathfinder Guns & Gears

I am trying to decide how I feel about the Inventor. I've read through the class and it left me with mixed feelings.

One, I think it can be and certainly looks like a fun class. The innovation is a fun and flavorful mechanic. The gadgets look fun, and the steampunkness is awesome.

But where my hang up is, and it's my fault for not playtesting, is that I was expecting this to be THE crafting class. I really did expect, features or feats that supplement cost/requirements to craft items. I feel the innovations could be more thematic, like building up draconic armor as the innovation. That could be more likely in future supplements though. But yeah, the sheer focus on just that ONE innovation and not really building up stuff for my allies leaves me very disappointed in the class. I also was hoping for a class feat similar to the Druid's Order feats. Something that let me also expand to other innovations, even if they were staggered so not quite as strong as your first choice.

I guess, I was fully expecting a Pathfinder Artificer which was something I deeply wanted in 1st ed. In the end, I am going to build a couple and give it a fair shot, but yeah. My personal expectations certainly dampened it for me.

You get free Crafting scaling and can get a feat to get daily gadgets for allies. So really, you probably are one of the best options for someone who wants to Craft for allies.

While I do like the inventor a lot, there are definitely a lot of things that aren't specified about crafting. And since they aren't specified, they're going to cause some pretty big headaches. Things like:

Using magic weapons (You found a cool unique magic weapon? Well it can't be your innovation because you can't make a new weapon your innovation, only choose from level 0 or 1 items)

How the heck runes work with changing innovatons (things like infinite invention say you can change your innovation to another one during daily prep, which is cool, but what happens to the runes? Do they have to be removed and reinstalled onto the new innovation, which in itself is a huge pain both timewise and cost wise since you have to have the formula for the runes, pay a little gold, and takes a day per rune. Also what about incompatible runes? If you have an armor innovation and want to change to a weapon innovation, do you have to have a bunch of runestones to save the old armor runes into if you want to change back? It's a massive headache and makes the whole feature really silly. I brought it up in the playtest but it wasn't addressed)

Precious material weapons and armor (similar to how you can't make a magic weapon your innovation, I don't know how creating or finding a precious material weapon can be made into your innovation)

I wish an editor had read the "Politics of Powder" passage for continuity fact-checking.

Cheliax controls the only sea passage to Alkenstar that's been actually mentioned in the sourcebooks, through Corentyn and Khari. Nothing goes in or out of the Inner Sea to the Arcadian Ocean without them getting a cut. It even says on the same page that their privateers harass Vidrian shipping. How are they getting through the Hespereth Strait unharassed with their cargo of firearms? And why would Geb or Nex be intimidated by a navy that can't pass through the strait because Cheliax hates them?

I assume that Vidrian ships go south around the horn of Garund to reach Alkenstar on the other side instead. That's the only way it makes sense, otherwise the "politically savvy" alliance mentioned on page 198 makes no sense whatsoever.

I wish an editor had read the "Politics of Powder" passage for continuity fact-checking.

Cheliax controls the only sea passage to Alkenstar that's been actually mentioned in the sourcebooks, through Corentyn and Khari. Nothing goes in or out of the Inner Sea to the Arcadian Ocean without them getting a cut. It even says on the same page that their privateers harass Vidrian shipping. How are they getting through the Hespereth Strait unharassed with their cargo of firearms? And why would Geb or Nex be intimidated by a navy that can't pass through the strait because Cheliax hates them?

I assume that Vidrian ships go south around the horn of Garund to reach Alkenstar on the other side instead. That's the only way it makes sense, otherwise the "politically savvy" alliance mentioned on page 198 makes no sense whatsoever.

Note that Cheliax also trades with Ravounel despite the fact that Ravounel seceded from them and lacks the military strength to fend them off. Vidrian also has the backing of Senghor, who Cheliax has long attempted to establish a trade embassy with and whose navy has successfully fended off both the Free Captains and Cheliax multiple times. Add to that, yes, Chelaxian privateers harass Vidrian ships, but privateers are not members of the Chelaxian military or government.

Cheliax is in a precarious position. They are weak and surrounded by increasingly powerful opposition who are increasingly organizing and uniting against them. They're barely holding onto Isger as it is and Andoran has flourished while they've waned. They're reliant on political maneuvering and carefully maintained trade agreements to avoid further decline.

So Vidrian sails its ships right through the strait while smiling and paying the toll and Cheliax smiles back while sending word to the privateers that a ship full of guns is passing through, because for Cheliax that allows them to claim plausible deniability and avoid a war that would destroy them utterly and for Vidrian it's one of the best routes to securing their own interests and improving their political position in the Inner Sea. Cheliax would much rather have Vidrian and Alkenstar trading and paying them a cut of the profits than Alkenstar shipping cannons to Andoran in a unified campaign to end them once and for all. Right now, Alkenstar doesn't have a strong need to open up trade with even more nations and it would behoove Cheliax not to make them think they should when inertia currently favors them.

This is consistent with the other established canon for the nations and countries.

In the future, please consider that maybe you're just misinterpreting the context of events before spamming multiple threads with a copy-pasted post and impugning our editors.

Hm. Without knowing about things like prevailing winds and currents it's hard to figure whether it's easier for trade between Vidrian and Alkenstar to go north through the inner sea or south around the horn of Garund. So what are the prevailing winds and currents around the continent?

Michael Sayre, just want to say: any book, adventure, or AP that delves into international naval politics is an instant purchase for me. Your post above is a joy.

Milo v3 wrote:

Is it intended for Gunner's Bandoliers not working with Quick Draw? Sort of kills any reason to use multiple guns to begin with.

Can you elaborate? I don't have my PDF here and I'm not sure where the disconnect is.

It takes an action to get your Bandolier's benefits on a gun and to draw it. So if you want to actually get your runes benefits on the gun, you need to use the action to draw it and not quickdraw.

I believe the goal with them is to be able to both:

1. Swap Guns: Like going from a dueling pistol to a scatter weapon. Think of it like "Shifting" for ranged weapons.
2. ""Reload"" Guns: If you have only one hand free, you might not have the feat to reload without a free hand. This basically lets you reload via swapping to a reloaded gun, which takes one action either way.

Except during the playtest, the time where the devs mentioned the existance of this item was where people kept saying that 'the reload mechanics are fine because you can drop your gun, quickdraw a new one'. It doesn't work for 2 IMO, since it is just 'spend money / 3rd level item to make your character equivalent to not using the item to begin with and just reloading your gun, if not worse because at least there are hybrid-reload actions for gunslingers'.

1 technically is a use, but the bandolier only works with 1 handed weapons with reload 1 to begin with. So you aren't getting much shifting from it, and cannot do things like swap a duelists pistol for a weapon with scatter.

Michael Sayre, just want to say: any book, adventure, or AP that delves into international naval politics is an instant purchase for me. Your post above is a joy.

Super seconded.

For anyone with pdfs, does the trade route map depict anything going on with Kelesh, Iblydos, or Kaladay? I heard Vudra gets a section on technology in this book, but hadn't heard anything else about Casmaron.

keftiu wrote:

Michael Sayre, just want to say: any book, adventure, or AP that delves into international naval politics is an instant purchase for me. Your post above is a joy.

Super seconded.

For anyone with pdfs, does the trade route map depict anything going on with Kelesh, Iblydos, or Kaladay? I heard Vudra gets a section on technology in this book, but hadn't heard anything else about Casmaron.

No. The trade route map is very low detail, and what is there is pretty much all wrong. I don’t recall any info on any of the locations you mention.

Opsylum wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Michael Sayre, just want to say: any book, adventure, or AP that delves into international naval politics is an instant purchase for me. Your post above is a joy.

Super seconded.

For anyone with pdfs, does the trade route map depict anything going on with Kelesh, Iblydos, or Kaladay? I heard Vudra gets a section on technology in this book, but hadn't heard anything else about Casmaron.

No. The trade route map is very low detail, and what is there is pretty much all wrong. I don’t recall any info on any of the locations you mention.

I'm not sure what happened with the route markers there, but I've tagged them for errata so we can shift the trade points to the correct locations. Shackles are yanked north and east for some reason while the Garundi markers look like they jumped about an inch south of where they should be and pulled the other lines along with them.

I love the paragraph detailing how orcs teamed up with dwarves to help with their Quest for Sky. To the current day it's mentioned, they remain good allies. I hope we see more of these groups.

I love the paragraph detailing how orcs teamed up with dwarves to help with their Quest for Sky. To the current day it's mentioned, they remain good allies. I hope we see more of these groups.

Everything about the Arcadia section rules, but this is a particular standout.

Is it intended for scatter weapons to be hitting you if you're a close-range gunslinger like a vanguard?

TODAY IS THE DAY! I should be picking up mine from my LFGS Friday.

Any ETA on Nethys getting the info posted, or is this not-that-department?

It is on AoN now.

It doesn't work for 2 IMO, since it is just 'spend money / 3rd level item to make your character equivalent to not using the item to begin with and just reloading your gun, if not worse because at least there are hybrid-reload actions for gunslingers'.

I am not sure what you mean, it's useful if you don't have a free hand. Most hybrid reload actions need to still be able to reload like normal. It's also an item that can be used by others besides Gunslinger. For example a Rogue wielding a rapier and dueling pistol, to occasionally use the gun when they get a chance to flatfoot at range. And then to reload can get a new gun on the bandolier.

1 technically is a use, but the bandolier only works with 1 handed weapons with reload 1 to begin with. So you aren't getting much shifting from it, and cannot do things like swap a duelists pistol for a weapon with scatter.

Dragon Mouth Pistol and Spoon Gun.

And now GnG came, we need a boost for "Inventor * Scrounger".

Inventor's Reverse Engineer has the same effect of Scrounger's Reverse Engineering and Expert Disassembler skill feat except formula and level.

More feats for the scrounger archetype.

In the future, please consider that maybe you're just misinterpreting the context of events before spamming multiple threads with a copy-pasted post and impugning our editors.

Whops. I reposted that from James's thread, because he said that's request.

I love this book so much. I'm going to be delving deep in to the Arcadia stuff in some stuff I hope to write for our next campaign.

But, Paizo, you're killing me with these spines (Secrets of Magic too)... It just does not look like it belongs with the rest of my books on the shelf! The Mwangi Expanse book at least still has the top and bottom treatment. But man, it's just so whacky and off brand.

All that said, 11/10 would recommend.

My favourite thing in this book is all of the office equipment.

Hm. Without knowing about things like prevailing winds and currents it's hard to figure whether it's easier for trade between Vidrian and Alkenstar to go north through the inner sea or south around the horn of Garund. So what are the prevailing winds and currents around the continent?

Given how much longer the southern route is, the winds and currents would have to be ridiculously strong in a counter-clockwise route around Garund for the southern route to be easier -- in fact, the very strength of such a current would make it more dangerous. The only reason to take the southern route would be if Cheliax has blocked off the Arch of Aroden or otherwise made the route through the Arch too hazardous for shipping from Vidrian.

Of course, overland transport by caravan might be an alternative worth considering.

Ed Reppert wrote:

Hm. Without knowing about things like prevailing winds and currents it's hard to figure whether it's easier for trade between Vidrian and Alkenstar to go north through the inner sea or south around the horn of Garund. So what are the prevailing winds and currents around the continent?

Given how much longer the southern route is, the winds and currents would have to be ridiculously strong in a counter-clockwise route around Garund for the southern route to be easier -- in fact, the very strength of such a current would make it more dangerous. The only reason to take the southern route would be if Cheliax has blocked off the Arch of Aroden or otherwise made the route through the Arch too hazardous for shipping from Vidrian.

Of course, overland transport by caravan might be an alternative worth considering.

I would assume the bulk of this trade is overland, following the route from Garund's east coast into the Mwangi Expanse that crosses the Ndele Gap. You hit Kibwe relatively quickly once you're through the mountains, which is a major trade hub for a reason.

You might be making the back half of the trip on the river.

I would assume the bulk of this trade is overland, following the route from Garund's east coast into the Mwangi Expanse that crosses the Ndele Gap. You hit Kibwe relatively quickly once you're through the mountains, which is a major trade hub for a reason.

You might be making the back half of the trip on the river.

There could also be some underground stretches of the cross-continental trade routes. The Kulenett have traded between Nex and Dongun Hold before, and they're pretty well honey-combed beneath all of Geb, so they almost certainly have routes beneath the Shattered Range that exit south of Kibwe.

keftiu wrote:

I would assume the bulk of this trade is overland, following the route from Garund's east coast into the Mwangi Expanse that crosses the Ndele Gap. You hit Kibwe relatively quickly once you're through the mountains, which is a major trade hub for a reason.

You might be making the back half of the trip on the river.

There could also be some underground stretches of the cross-continental trade routes. The Kulenett have traded between Nex and Dongun Hold before, and they're pretty well honey-combed beneath all of Geb, so they almost certainly have routes beneath the Shattered Range that exit south of Kibwe.

I hadn't thought about the Kulenett getting that far west, but it makes good sense! They've been cropping up more and more lately; I'd love to have enough detail to play one.

That route makes a fun split for anyone playing a merchant caravan - do we try to brave the dangerous mountain passes, or take the underground path?

Given how much longer the southern route is…

What, exactly, are the relevant distances, and where is that information available?

David knott 242 wrote:

Given how much longer the southern route is…

What, exactly, are the relevant distances, and where is that information available?

The southern bit of Garund seems to be about twice-again the size of what we usually see on Inner Sea maps: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/XBl2Ry

Different projections distort different things. That said, I'm not conversant enough with the various projections to know what is distorted, if anything, on that map, and to what extent. IAC, the map doesn't answer my question. :-)

Every map that shows the entirety of Garund has much more of it south of Vidrian than north of it, and none of these maps use a projection that would make areas near the equator look too big. As I recall, Vidrian is near Golarion's equivalent of the Tropic of Cancer.

Every map that shows the entirety of Garund has much more of it south of Vidrian than north of it, and none of these maps use a projection that would make areas near the equator look too big. As I recall, Vidrian is near Golarion's equivalent of the Tropic of Cancer.

Vidrian is south than that. When I put the world map on maptoglobe.com, the northern tropic passes through Mediogalti Island. Though it's worth noting that John Mechalas' interpretation has it closer to the Shackles instead.

But yeah, what we see on the map is about the northern quarter of Garund (in terms of latitude anyway, not necessarily 25% of the land area). A little less if you count the big island to the south of it.

Correction accepted.

What I was getting at was that Vidrian is well north of the equator, and not approximately on the equator as one would conclude from blindly accepting the geography of Garund as matching that of Africa. In fact, one thing we could conclude is that going around the southern end of Garund is a longer trip than going around the southern end of Africa.

The geography of Vudra would be an even worst mismatch with its real world counterpart in India, as Vudra is entirely in the southern hemisphere and India is entirely in the northern hemisphere. But I am drifting way off topic here.

Vidrian is south than that.

*further south than that, I mean. Didn't catch that typo in time.

Question/potential error: the map of Arcadia describes the region as Old Razatlan, while the sidebar calls it Fallen Razatlan - which is correct?

It should be Fallen Razatlan.

It should be Fallen Razatlan.

Thanks, Luis!

Question/potential error: the map of Arcadia describes the region as Old Razatlan, while the sidebar calls it Fallen Razatlan - which is correct?

It was Old Razatlan, but it go so old it became Fallen Razatlan, known to some as And It Can't Get Up Razatlan.

I don't want to spam the forum, as I asked this in the Rules area, but since we've got a dev in here, I would really love a simple GnG question answered if at all possible: if you take Inventor multiclass dedication, are you trained in your innovation?
For instance, a Wizard taking Inventor archetype and armor innovation-power suit: is the wizard trained in the power suit? Also on the same subject, weapon innovation says choose a 0 or 1 level simple or martial weapon, is the wizard trained in the weapon innovation?

Should there be a line in the dedication saying "you are trained in your innovation, treat it as [simple?/martial?/light?/medium?] for proficiency"?

If not then, should there be an extra archetype feat for innovation proficiency? Because otherwise it is far too expensive for casters to take the Inventor archetype, unless they want construct which doesn't require proficiency.

I love this book so much. I'm going to be delving deep in to the Arcadia stuff in some stuff I hope to write for our next campaign.

But, Paizo, you're killing me with these spines (Secrets of Magic too)... It just does not look like it belongs with the rest of my books on the shelf! The Mwangi Expanse book at least still has the top and bottom treatment. But man, it's just so whacky and off brand.

All that said, 11/10 would recommend.

I'll just note that after getting a couple more "non-core" rule books, it will be the core ones that will become off-brand. :O

I was set off a bit in the Guns section. I do perfectly understand that we have a different development regarding historical firearms. But ...
It set me off.
A Jezail (or Jezzail), is a homemade long musket of differing but with time mostly exceptional quality regarding range and accuracy, the word is actually Pashtu (meaning long gun). now a Jezail is a homemade carbine of questionable quality, with a fancy stock that can be used one-handed. Well...
That's one example.
I do appreciate the work put in, and the reason for game mechanics. But a more thorough research in historical firearms, and early revolvers and stuff would have helped.
It might just be me and being involved in historical work and research. But that did make my Head hurt...

Can you elaborate, the description in the book doesn’t really disagree with your first statement of the Jezzail, it doesn’t have Kickback so good accuracy and pretty decent range, only 3 guns have better range and 2 of them are fictional.

Pashtu doesn't mean long gun. The Pashto (or Pushtu, with quite a lot of other regional dialect variants) language is spoken by the Pashtun people of Afghanistan and Pakistan, with whom the jezail originated (jezail/jezzail means "long barrel[s]" in Pashto). Calling it a Pashtu would be like calling a Colt .45 an "Amerigun". (Though maybe you were just saying it's a Pashtu word? I'm uncertain from the way you phrased your post.) As we explain in the book, the fatal trait represents an accurate shot to a critical area, so a jezail fired one-handed is inaccurate and incapable of such shots, though you can still use it one-handed while e.g. holding a mount's reins in the other hand for some reasonable ranged damage, which other two-handed firearms aren't accurate or ergonomic enough to accomplish. Using both hands with the fatal aim trait makes it one of the longest ranged and deadlier firearms available.

The language of firearms is also highly regional; the original arquebus/hackbut came from the word haakbus, or hook gun, because they featured a particular downward curved or angled stock and hook-like projection for steadying against battlements, something of a predecessor to the French wall gun and Indian jingal (though the word was applied to a wide variety of guns over the course of several centuries as warfare and language both evolved). So our arquebus is a realization of the roots of several of this family of wall-or-battlement-mountable weapons.

That's one of the reasons we took the time in the section introductions and lore to talk about firearms in Golarion featuring refinements specific to this fantasy world, like the development of breech-loading functionality and cartridge shot in Dongun Hold allowing for much faster reloading than real world muzzle-loaders (most guns from Dongun Hold are similar to the original US Hall rifle, which was a flintlock breech-loader), as well as other adjustments to tie the necessity of game balance to logical progressions in weapon families covered by the guns in this book.

Calling it a Pashtu would be like calling a Colt .45 an "Amerigun".

Quick show of hands: who else is now picturing an Amerigun?

Misprint: page 77 to 99 has wrong chapter names on the side of the pages, mentions Shootist and black powder.

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask but I had a question on how the aim action works for siege weapons. So if I'm looking through a top-down reticle onto a battle field, I can move that reticle in any direction I want (for example, if I'm using the ballista I can move the reticle for 35 feet in any direction per action) until it is over a enemy/object and then can use the launch action. Is this how the aim action works?

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask but I had a question on how the aim action works for siege weapons. So if I'm looking through a top-down reticle onto a battle field, I can move that reticle in any direction I want (for example, if I'm using the ballista I can move the reticle for 35 feet in any direction per action) until it is over a enemy/object and then can use the launch action. Is this how the aim action works?

Yes! Assuming its loaded already.

Andru C Watkins wrote:

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask but I had a question on how the aim action works for siege weapons. So if I'm looking through a top-down reticle onto a battle field, I can move that reticle in any direction I want (for example, if I'm using the ballista I can move the reticle for 35 feet in any direction per action) until it is over a enemy/object and then can use the launch action. Is this how the aim action works?

Yes! Assuming its loaded already.

Awesome, thank you!

for Inventor class features under Medium Armor Expertise/Level 11, it says "If you have a medium or heavy armor innovation, you
gain access to the critical specialization effect with your
armor innovation."
Can I assume this means "Armor Specialization", since Armor "Critical Specialization" doesn't seem to exist?

Is there a reason that in the firearms weapon table on page 151, the coat pistol and the clan pistol do not list ammunition?

Is there a reason that in the firearms weapon table on page 151, the coat pistol and the clan pistol do not list ammunition?

Looks like the lines might have been squeezed out by copyfit. They're both standard 10 round / 1 sp ammo units.

Pathfinder Guns & Gears for Fantasy Grounds is now available.

Any ETA on errata?

Any ETA on errata?

No ETA.