I like where your head's at, Pseudonym. Are you sure you're not one of ours?
I'm more daemonic than devilish, but I'm willing to hire out to both sides in this dispute. Nocticula had engaged me to defend her prior claim on darkness related marketing, but she stiffed me on my fee, which was rather an inversion of our agreement.
Wes did not write the Archdevil stats in Bestiary 6, but rest assured they're plenty powerful. As for their CRs, you can expect the ones who rule upper layers of Hell to be less powerful than those who rule lower layers of hell. AKA: Mephistopheles is the most powerful of the arch devils, and the rest descend from him in power... Although not necessarily all the way down to CR 26...Firstly, thanks again for your replies Mr. JJ.
I'm really anxious to see how powerful Mephistopheles is, as the strongest Archdevil, and I'm already satisfied to know none of them are bellow CR 27. To hold their position against the Dukes of Hell and also fight the celestial forces, indeed they would need to be plenty powerful.
This leaves Geryon with CR 28-29, depending if Mephistopheles is the only CR 30 Archdevils, a position I supposed The Lord of Flies would also hold. As there are eight of them, things could go perfectly like this: 27 Barbatos, 27 Dispater, 28 Mammon, 28 Belial, 29 Geryon, 29 Moloch, 30 Baalzebul, 30 Mephistopheles.
People are grabbing on to strongly to the hyperbole in the Geryon article. He's the fount of lies, of course he didn't actually personally kill 800+ demigods.
Never heard of the Horla, but sounds interesting after looking it up online.
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They're not angels and I'd rather not confuse things by calling them that. Furthermore, they're not all about vengeance.I liked "Angels of Vengeance" myself.
Still, can't complain.
My thoughts 100%
Never could really 'get' the whore angle with Mahathallah especially... (my favorite evil deity in the Golarion setting thus far)
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So....still no word as to if Ushers are included in this volume ???They are not. We haven't yet gotten a good point to do more with them yet. Maybe some day.
sad face......
People are grabbing on to strongly to the hyperbole in the Geryon article. He's the fount of lies, of course he didn't actually personally kill 800+ demigods.Wes did not write the Archdevil stats in Bestiary 6, but rest assured they're plenty powerful. As for their CRs, you can expect the ones who rule upper layers of Hell to be less powerful than those who rule lower layers of hell. AKA: Mephistopheles is the most powerful of the arch devils, and the rest descend from him in power... Although not necessarily all the way down to CR 26...Blablabla Geryon Blablabla CR...
I was lied to? =O Never believing in the fount of lies again... ònó
For what it's worth, "Queens of the Night" are playing somewhat with the implications in "Prince of [b]Darkness[b]." Night and darkness have long been associated with Hell. For example, all devils can see in darkness. It's pretty on-point as far as I'm concerned... but that said, feel free to call them what you want in your game.
It's true that darkness have been associated with Hell but night has also been associated with goddess of the night (aka stars, dreams, the moon, and such). Take my campaign world for instance. It has a pair of Eldest sisters (one LG one representing the sun, daylight, patience, and benevolence and one NG one representing the night, the moon, the stars, and forgiveness [who is a friend to Desna]).
They're the Queens of the Night officially going forward though.
Cool, actually, the title of my Eldest demigoddess of the night is "princess of the night" so "queens of the night" might actually not be too much of a step onto her turf in my campaign. :D
I would prefer the name "Hell's Hookers";)
Considering we have Great Old Ones that are aberration, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, and plant type, will there be any that are dragon, fey, humanoid, and/or undead type?
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They're not angels and I'd rather not confuse things by calling them that. Furthermore, they're not all about vengeance.I liked "Angels of Vengeance" myself.
Still, can't complain.
My thoughts 100%
Never could really 'get' the whore angle with Mahathallah especially... (my favorite evil deity in the Golarion setting thus far)
Re-reading my previous post, I could perhaps 'see' the point of 'whore' from a good-aligned hard stance, as the whore moniker is probably appropriate, as they serve Asmodeus i.e. the god of all slavers and 'legal' pimps and people who want to control others, or anyone who wish to prop up a ruling elite upon the backs of others, with no fear of reprisal from the authorities.
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Re-reading my previous post, I am a bit shocked... from a good-aligned hard stance, the whore moniker is probably appropriate, as they serve Asmodeus i.e. the god of all slavers and 'legal' pimps and people who want to control others, or anyone who wish to prop up a ruling elite upon the backs of others, with no fear of reprisal from the authorities.They're not angels and I'd rather not confuse things by calling them that. Furthermore, they're not all about vengeance.I liked "Angels of Vengeance" myself.
Still, can't complain.
My thoughts 100%
Never could really 'get' the whore angle with Mahathallah especially... (my favorite evil deity in the Golarion setting thus far)
It's still a misogynist slur. One the Queens and their followers definitely don't appreciate.
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It's still a misogynist slur. One the Queens and their followers definitely don't appreciate.Re-reading my previous post, I am a bit shocked... from a good-aligned hard stance, the whore moniker is probably appropriate, as they serve Asmodeus i.e. the god of all slavers and 'legal' pimps and people who want to control others, or anyone who wish to prop up a ruling elite upon the backs of others, with no fear of reprisal from the authorities.They're not angels and I'd rather not confuse things by calling them that. Furthermore, they're not all about vengeance.I liked "Angels of Vengeance" myself.
Still, can't complain.
My thoughts 100%
Never could really 'get' the whore angle with Mahathallah especially... (my favorite evil deity in the Golarion setting thus far)
Definitely bad for our modern day use yes, especially if you're gaming with kids. I can appreciate why they're changing it. However any 'tough sounding' Game of Throne-like fantasy movie will not bat an eye at the term whore, but there's no real point or advantage creating a PG vs. non-PG rift in the Pathfinder customer base (same way there's no real point of having a core vs. setting rift, IMO).
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Definitely bad for our modern day use yes, especially if you're gaming with kids. I can appreciate why they're changing it. However any 'tough sounding' Game of Throne-like fantasy movie will not bat an eye at the term whore, but there's no real point or advantage creating a PG vs. non-PG rift in the Pathfinder customer base (same way there's no real point of having a core vs. setting rift, IMO).It's still a misogynist slur. One the Queens and their followers definitely don't appreciate.Re-reading my previous post, I am a bit shocked... from a good-aligned hard stance, the whore moniker is probably appropriate, as they serve Asmodeus i.e. the god of all slavers and 'legal' pimps and people who want to control others, or anyone who wish to prop up a ruling elite upon the backs of others, with no fear of reprisal from the authorities.They're not angels and I'd rather not confuse things by calling them that. Furthermore, they're not all about vengeance.I liked "Angels of Vengeance" myself.
Still, can't complain.
My thoughts 100%
Never could really 'get' the whore angle with Mahathallah especially... (my favorite evil deity in the Golarion setting thus far)
That's an assumption you are having.
The "it's the time period" defense is complete bunk, moreso when we're talking about a fantasy setting whose history in no way, shape, or form syncs up with Earth's. Whore has always been a sexist insult.
Kaiju, kaiju, kaiju, kaiju, kaiju!!!!!
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Are you going to ban words that describe things? Or professions? Especially in regards to the oldest profession in the world? Because it's a long list, on all sides of the gender equation. There's words that are hate filled, and I won't stand for those. There's words that handle mature themes, like whore (I think time period or say, using it for a female devil, is not entirely inappropriate).
I agree about the change of 'team name' here but not for the same reason you guys use. I'm more concerned about it for the kids sake if the game is marketed to kids. Other than that censorship is not my forte...
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Just a clarification question, do the Whore Queen fall in the quasi-deity category, or are they full fledged demi-gods? They are stated to be equal rank to the Infernal Dukes within Hell, but as you've stated individual Dukes can end up on either side. Thank you for your time.Nope; no exceptions. At least not yet. That's merely has a typo. An Empyreal Lord is, by defintion, a demigod in the CR 26 to CR 30 range. They are intended to be analoges to the Horsemen, demon lords, archdevils, Great Old Ones, and other demigods.
The CR 21-25 range is for quasi-deities, such as nascent demon lords, maelbranche, qlippoth lords, mythic characters with the divine source ability, and others.
Infernal dukes are the weirdos that cross that barrier; most of them are CR 21 to 25, but a few are higher than CR 25. Those who are above CR 25 are demigods and could, in theory, some day be an archdevil.
So now we can use the term quasi-deities for these lesser beings with a small spark of divinity. Thanks Mr. Jacobs! It's actually refreshing to know that there's no chance that Ragathiel (or any of the empyreal) is a CR 25 creature. =P
I can't express how much I appreciate when you Mr. Jacobs (and many other members of the staff) come here to clarify our doubts and dilemmas. (*-*)b
They are demigods. So, CR 26–30. Same tier of power as Archdevils. Also, we're in the process of transitioning their name to "Queens of the Night," which is the group that they call themselves rather than deferring to the name "Whore Queens" which is the name the misogynistic archdevils refer to them as. That said, they don't have stats in this book.
Wes did not write the Archdevil stats in Bestiary 6, but rest assured they're plenty powerful. As for their CRs, you can expect the ones who rule upper layers of Hell to be less powerful than those who rule lower layers of hell. AKA: Mephistopheles is the most powerful of the arch...
Archdevils are gonna be goooooood.
At being bad. :)
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Are you going to ban words that describe things? Or professions? Especially in regards to the oldest profession in the world? Because it's a long list, on all sides of the gender equation. There's words that are hate filled, and I won't stand for those. There's words that handle mature themes, like whore (I think time period or say, using it for a female devil, is not entirely inappropriate).
I agree about the change of 'team name' here but not for the same reason you guys use. I'm more concerned about it for the kids sake if the game is marketed to kids. Other than that censorship is not my forte...
The term "Whore Queens" has not been removed from the campaign setting. As James said, it's what the Archdevils call them, and understandably not what they'd want to call themselves.
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Hey folks, once again, if the comments are not about Bestiary 6, leave them out of this thread. Going forward, given the volume of posts that have been off-topic, these may be removed without notification. Thanks!
Creative Director
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Are you going to ban words that describe things? Or professions? Especially in regards to the oldest profession in the world? Because it's a long list, on all sides of the gender equation. There's words that are hate filled, and I won't stand for those. There's words that handle mature themes, like whore (I think time period or say, using it for a female devil, is not entirely inappropriate).
I agree about the change of 'team name' here but not for the same reason you guys use. I'm more concerned about it for the kids sake if the game is marketed to kids. Other than that censorship is not my forte...
EDIT: As Chris said, let's keep the discussion here on-topic... but that said, I want to step in here and qualify something.
Nope. Not going to ban words that describe things at all. But neither are we going to use words that have loaded meanings or insulting/disparaging connotations unless we INTEND them to be insulting or disparaging.
If we want to talk about prostitutes, we'll probably use the word prostitute rather than whore, unless we're specifically going for the connotations for the word. For example, the demon lord Sifkesh will continue to be known as the "Sacred Whore" because part of her whole theme is blasphemy, and the juxtiposition of "sacred" and "whore" there fits that theme. For the Whore Queens, that name is very much an insulting term levied to them by the misogynistic realm they happen to be part of. While Archdevils will likely still call them whore queens, they (and their worshipers) will refer to themselves as the Queens of the night.
But the word "whore" has FAR more negative connotations in modern parlance than "prostitute." And since it's got more negative connotations, it's not appropriate to use it in a context where we don't intend to be insulting.
And again... the Queens of the Night are not prostitutes. From the start, they've represented concepts and roles that do NOT involve selling their sexual favors for money. They're about things like snakes and pain and battle and fate and death and seduction and dispassion. "Queens of the Night" is a far more appropriate term for them.
Feel free to keep using the term "Whore Queen" in your game if you want, but if you do, keep in mind that you're using a word that folks will find offensive.
You say that there's words that are "hate filled," and I consider "whore" to be one of them. When that word is used in modern society, it is NOT used merely as a "job title" or to be descriptive. It's used almost ALWAYS to demean, insult, and humiliate, and to argue vehemently otherwise kinda just marks you as someone who's insensitive to the matter, frankly.
NOW: Going forward, let's talk about Bestiary 6 here. The discussion of what we name our outsiders is for another thread.
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As an actual female gamer I appreciate the move away from using "Whore queens" as their official name.
And yes, just because the technology level is medieval doesn't mean the society has to be the same as Earth's medieval period. Pazio has never hewn close to actual medieval culture and that's a good thing.
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Creative Director
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I know I took a while to make my post, but again... back on topic please, folks. Talk Bestiary 6 here. Other topics deserve other threads.
To get folks going again, I'll refocus the discussion on Bestiary 6 stuff. THE VERY NEXT PERSON who posts to this thread and asks a single question about Bestiary 6 and is thus on-topic will get an answer by me as to one bit of content in the book!
GO!!! :-P
What are the 3 kaiju in the book?
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Creative Director
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What's something cool Szuriel has in this book?!?!
YOU WIN.
Okay, for Szuriel, we present stats not only for Szuriel herself (she's CR 28, by the way), but also for her sword, Lamentation of the Faithless. It's a +5 speed unholy greatsword for starters, and heals her of damage each time she hits someone with it plus she can blind people and crush their hopes with it. And if she loses the sword, she can call it back to her hand, so don't waste your time trying to disarm her.
Oh. And when she pops in via teleportation, she does so with an explosion of fire that deals 20d6 damage to everything within 30 feet. And yes, she can teleport at will.
Plus lots of other things.
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What's something cool Szuriel has in this book?!?!YOU WIN.
Okay, for Szuriel, we present stats not only for Szuriel herself (she's CR 28, by the way), but also for her sword, Lamentation of the Faithless. It's a +5 speed unholy greatsword for starters, and heals her of damage each time she hits someone with it plus she can blind people and crush their hopes with it. And if she loses the sword, she can call it back to her hand, so don't waste your time trying to disarm her.
Oh. And when she pops in via teleportation, she does so with an explosion of fire that deals 20d6 damage to everything within 30 feet. And yes, she can teleport at will.
Plus lots of other things.
Yay!
OoO
*dies of happiness*
Thank you James:)
Varklops! Yay! He's totally going to be Ghidorah. I think.
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I had fun with Szuriel. >:)
What's something cool Szuriel has in this book?!?!YOU WIN.
Okay, for Szuriel, we present stats not only for Szuriel herself (she's CR 28, by the way), but also for her sword, Lamentation of the Faithless. It's a +5 speed unholy greatsword for starters, and heals her of damage each time she hits someone with it plus she can blind people and crush their hopes with it. And if she loses the sword, she can call it back to her hand, so don't waste your time trying to disarm her.
Oh. And when she pops in via teleportation, she does so with an explosion of fire that deals 20d6 damage to everything within 30 feet. And yes, she can teleport at will.
Plus lots of other things.
Can't I mark this as favorite twice? *---*
Thanks for the Kaiju as well, Mr. Jacobs! I'm expecting fun and cool illustration for these guys. The art for the kaiju in B4 are among my favorite - specially Mogaru.
Queen Vorgozen, the Shapeless Feeder of the vast swamp (oze creature?)
Yarthoon, the Moon Grub of the darkest nights (a larvae and than a moth?)
If we are already that excited about Bestiary 6, imagine how we are going to react when real previews are out? XD
Mr. Jacobs,
Would it be to much to ask for your next "revelations" to be about the Wild Hunt or about the Green Man? We already know they are in the book, so, that would be a "quasi-spoiler"... It doesn't need to be for today or tomorrow, but next time, you could at least remember this plea... =P
Is the Wild Hunt a single creature or a group? And about the Green Man, is he a powerful fey or a plant? That's all we need to know (Seriously, I'm dying because we couldn't really talk about these creatures)... =)
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It would be great if they were expies of
Varklops- I hope he will be a dragon but more then likely an evil outsider. He is the closest thing to Ghidorah we can get.
Vorgozen- Could be an aberration or ooze. But I agree reminds me of Hedorah.
Yarthoon- If it is like Mothra, it is the larva version. I am sure this one will be a magical beast.
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I'm hoping Vorgozen is more Biollante than Hedorah. And that Yarthoon is somehow related to Desna.
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I second the info request on the Wild Hunt!
Thank you for the previous info (and setting this thread back on topic!).
The Purity of Violence, the "shapeless" part makes it sound like it will be a ooze or amorphous aberration then a plant but who knows.