SO I can't find anything in the rules that says I can't use the shove action to move a target vertically. Could a fighter with Flinging Shove push an enemy 10ft/20ft into the air? The enemy would then take falling damage and land prone.
This question originates from the fact that, as far as I know, the Roc is the only creature that can grab a target and move afterwards. In play, we have handled wrestling shenanigans like grabbing someone, running across the tavern and slamming their head in the wall, as a shove action, followed up by a grab action and then an unarmed attack. I think the vertical shove would fit within this framework as something like a suplex or body slam.
Falling always happens at the end of a given action unless the activity explicitly says you may take another action before falling, right?
If forced movement would move you into a space you
can’t occupy—because objects are in the way or because you
lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—
you stop moving in the last space you can occupy.If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually
be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge,
or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way
can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify
otherwise.
The second part clarifies that you can be pushed and pulled into hazardous squares (eg. off a cliff) but other types of forced movement (eg. "make a creature walk" and "teleportation") can't place you somewhere dangerous (eg. midair).
Generally speaking shoving someone does not lift them.
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SO I can't find anything in the rules that says I can't use the shove action to move a target vertically. Could a fighter with Flinging Shove push an enemy 10ft/20ft into the air? The enemy would then take falling damage and land prone.
This question originates from the fact that, as far as I know, the Roc is the only creature that can grab a target and move afterwards. In play, we have handled wrestling shenanigans like grabbing someone, running across the tavern and slamming their head in the wall, as a shove action, followed up by a grab action and then an unarmed attack. I think the vertical shove would fit within this framework as something like a suplex or body slam.
Falling always happens at the end of a given action unless the activity explicitly says you may take another action before falling, right?
Generally, abilities which shove creatures usually push them back the same way they came, or the opposite direction from where the attack is coming from. Not only does this make sense from a rules standpoint, it makes sense from a realism standpoint as well.
Unless you're underneath the target in some fashion, this is probably physically impossible and would require it being its own ability for it to work the way you wish it to.
If forced movement would move you into a space you
can’t occupy—because objects are in the way or because you
lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—
you stop moving in the last space you can occupy.If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually
be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge,
or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way
can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify
otherwise.The second part clarifies that you can be pushed and pulled into hazardous squares (eg. off a cliff) but other types of forced movement (eg. "make a creature walk" and "teleportation") can't place you somewhere dangerous (eg. midair).
Generally speaking shoving someone does not lift them.
The part you bolded is explicitly talking about moving you to a space you cannot occupy. If the character could get their by jumping, then it is a space they could occupy.
The rules around forced movement are problematically sparse for making claims that you can only use the shove action to move enemies horizontally in the exact opposite direction that you approach them from. If that is true, no one can ever move anyone except straight back, because there are no actions that specify you can force movement in any other direction.
I think the developers were deliberate about this choice so they didn't have to make a drag action or a pull action, and didn't have to take up a bunch of space in the rulebook for stuff that can be sorted with common sense. If your game would be disrupted by characters being pushed upwards, then by all means don't allow it, but I don't think you really have a case that the RAW on this speaks to one interpretation or another. Unlike many games, there is no break down of concepts like push or pull.
The rules of forced movement just say:
Usually the creature or effect forcing the movement chooses the path the victim takes.
If you are going to hang a lot of weight on the shove action including the words away from you, then up can just as easily be a direction that is away from you.
I am not bringing this up as a tricky way for players to pull one over on GMs, I actually see GMs using this rule as much as players to have more interesting and colorful things for characters to do then have to just strike as often as possible because the rules make it impossible for any character to attempt a body slam.
Keep in mind, without a special feat or ability, you have to get a critical success on a vertical shove for it to move someone far enough that they don't just land on their feet right where they started. And even on a critical success, you have moved them 10ft up, which means they take 5 damage and land prone. Which is ok, but a critical success on a trip does almost exactly the same thing. A little less damage, but it has a regular success effect that shoving upward does not.
It says away from you. If you are lifting it that isn't away unless you are already under it and I would say it is a pretty extreme stretch that leads to the following being readable
C= character, T= Target, _= empty space, 1-4= squares shoved in order for a 20ft shove.
1 2 3
T _ 4
C _ _
It is technically shoved "away from you" but obviously not how the developers intended it ;).
Now I could see an argument of a diagonal shove gaining height. However I would apply diagonals and the fly speed gravity rules as a GM, e.g. shoving 5ft across and 5ft up would cost 15ft of shove, shoving 10ft across 10ft up would be 25ft required shove distance.
I would also be tempted to check it against their bulk capacity as a simple binary yes/no before allowing it too.
The part you bolded is explicitly talking about moving you to a space you cannot occupy. If the character could get their by jumping, then it is a space they could occupy.
(1) No, its talking about forced movement. That text is under a header titled "Forced Movement". Shove causes forced movement. Like, seriously, read the rest of the sentence around the bolded part, "if forced movement would move you into a space you can’t occupy..."
(2) Forced movement uses your movement types available. Walking, climbing, flying. You cannot walk into the air. Jumping is an action that results in occupying a square you cannot normally occupy. Obviously a creature that floats (eg. a will-o-wisp) can be shoved vertically, but it won't fall and take damage, because it floats.(3) Shoving someone does not make them jump.
The rules around forced movement are problematically sparse for making claims that you can only use the shove action to move enemies horizontally in the exact opposite direction that you approach them from. If that is true, no one can ever move anyone except straight back, because there are no actions that specify you can force movement in any other direction.
Wrong.
(1) Shove specifically specifies "away from you." The only direction that is "away from you" is...well...away from you horizontally in most cases.(2) "there are no actions that specify you can force movement in any other direction" ...yes there are. POSITIONING ASSAULT, GUIDING FINISH, GUIDING RIPOSTE, TANGLED FOREST RAKE, and polearm crit specialization all come to mind.
The rules of forced movement just say:
Usually the creature or effect forcing the movement chooses the path the victim takes.If you are going to hang a lot of weight on the shove action including the words away from you, then up can just as easily be a direction that is away from you.
And you forgot about the section on page 473 that says that forced movement cannot move you in a direction you cannot normally move, with the exception that you can be forced into hazardous terrain, such as off a cliff, that I quoted and found by searching "forced movement."
If forced movement would move you into a space you
can’t occupy—because objects are in the way or because you
lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—
you stop moving in the last space you can occupy.If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually
be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge,
or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way
can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify
otherwise.The second part clarifies that you can be pushed and pulled into hazardous squares (eg. off a cliff) but other types of forced movement (eg. "make a creature walk" and "teleportation") can't place you somewhere dangerous (eg. midair).
Generally speaking shoving someone does not lift them.
I don't see how being pushed Vertically 10 Feet is different than being pushed off a ledge.
I think this idea is fine, but I would take Bulk into account. You can't do this if the Bulk of the Creature plus your Gear would exceed your maximum Bulk Limit.
Page 473 is the page I was referencing. You ignored the dominant clause of the sentence you were quoting. The clause "because you lack the movement type needed to reach it" is subordinate to "If forced movement would move you into a space you can’t occupy." I would interpret this to mean something like requiring a burrow speed to push someone through a square of loose sand. If you can push someone off a cliff, into a space that can make them fall. Then pushing them up into a space from which they can fall is almost exactly the same thing.
Again, I think these rules are deliberately nonspecific, and have avoided trying to be rules-lawyery so that the GM and table can interpret things their own way. All of the feats you mention do more than just move someone in a direction other than horizontally away. I don't think it makes any sense to prevent average characters in world from being able to move someone in a direction other than exactly away, so shove is the action I use, and have my players use for anything that is focused on general forced movement. You are welcome to play it any way you want at your table.
I find that being too restrictive on players want to be creative in how they utilize terrain and the environment makes for a much more static and boring encounter.
If forced movement would move you into a space you
can’t occupy—because objects are in the way or because you
lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—
you stop moving in the last space you can occupy.If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually
be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge,
or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way
can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify
otherwise.The second part clarifies that you can be pushed and pulled into hazardous squares (eg. off a cliff) but other types of forced movement (eg. "make a creature walk" and "teleportation") can't place you somewhere dangerous (eg. midair).
Generally speaking shoving someone does not lift them.
I don't see how being pushed Vertically 10 Feet is different than being pushed off a ledge.
I think this idea is fine, but I would take Bulk into account. You can't do this if the Bulk of the Creature plus your Gear would exceed your maximum Bulk Limit.
Because you can Stride to fall off a cliff but you can't Stride to get 10ft in the air. The whole rules are clear: if you lack the type of movement to reach a square you can't be shoved there. If you don't fly you can't be shoved vertically.
Because you can Stride to fall off a cliff but you can't Stride to get 10ft in the air. The whole rules are clear: if you lack the type of movement to reach a square you can't be shoved there. If you don't fly you can't be shoved vertically.If forced movement would move you into a space you
can’t occupy—because objects are in the way or because you
lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—
you stop moving in the last space you can occupy.If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually
be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge,
or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way
can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify
otherwise.The second part clarifies that you can be pushed and pulled into hazardous squares (eg. off a cliff) but other types of forced movement (eg. "make a creature walk" and "teleportation") can't place you somewhere dangerous (eg. midair).
Generally speaking shoving someone does not lift them.
I don't see how being pushed Vertically 10 Feet is different than being pushed off a ledge.
I think this idea is fine, but I would take Bulk into account. You can't do this if the Bulk of the Creature plus your Gear would exceed your maximum Bulk Limit.
You can't Stride 10 Feet off a cliff either. The rules are clear that if you are being pushed or pulled, it's an exception.
You can't Stride 10 Feet off a cliff either.
So you fall after 5ft.
The rules are clear that if you are being pushed or pulled, it's an exception.
Do you have any quote? Because what has been quoted don't say that.
The way I read the rules, forced movement is movement. You are not thrown 10 feet away you are pushed and will move through all the squares using one of your movement types. For example, if there is a pressure plate on the square behind you and you are pushed 10 feet you will activate the pressure plate by walking on it. If there is a 5 feet gap behind you and you are push 10 feet you will fall and never reach the other side of the gap. You can't Shove your allies over hazards and traps.
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Page 473 is the page I was referencing. You ignored the dominant clause of the sentence you were quoting. The clause "because you lack the movement type needed to reach it" is subordinate to "If forced movement would move you into a space you can’t occupy." I would interpret this to mean something like requiring a burrow speed to push someone through a square of loose sand. If you can push someone off a cliff, into a space that can make them fall. Then pushing them up into a space from which they can fall is almost exactly the same thing.
Again, I think these rules are deliberately nonspecific, and have avoided trying to be rules-lawyery so that the GM and table can interpret things their own way. All of the feats you mention do more than just move someone in a direction other than horizontally away. I don't think it makes any sense to prevent average characters in world from being able to move someone in a direction other than exactly away, so shove is the action I use, and have my players use for anything that is focused on general forced movement. You are welcome to play it any way you want at your table.
I find that being too restrictive on players want to be creative in how they utilize terrain and the environment makes for a much more static and boring encounter.
Allowing things like shove into the air or Whirling Throw into a space in the air (unlike allowimg shive diagonally away instead of only directly away) is not something that I would point at as encouraging the players to make creating use of the environment. Instead they tend to make "throw vertically" an optimal tactic whenever there's enough vertical space and discourage thinking based on the specifics of the area.
If forced movement would move you into a space you
can’t occupy—because objects are in the way or because you
lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—
you stop moving in the last space you can occupy.If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually
be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge,
or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way
can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify
otherwise.The second part clarifies that you can be pushed and pulled into hazardous squares (eg. off a cliff) but other types of forced movement (eg. "make a creature walk" and "teleportation") can't place you somewhere dangerous (eg. midair).
Generally speaking shoving someone does not lift them.
I don't see how being pushed Vertically 10 Feet is different than being pushed off a ledge.
I think this idea is fine, but I would take Bulk into account. You can't do this if the Bulk of the Creature plus your Gear would exceed your maximum Bulk Limit.
It's different in that you're actually adding elevation to a creature's previous position, which requires significantly more force (since you're not only elevating a certain amount of bulk, but fighting gravity as well) in a real life situation, whereas the other one doesn't require any of those things. Kicking a person 5 feet in the air is way different than, say, kicking a soccer ball or a football 15+ feet in the air. Different objects with different weights, dimensions, positioning, etc.
I mean sure, the difference is 5 extra damage that bypasses all resistance, but honestly this is a much bigger deal in the lower levels where you're lucky to have 20+ hit points at 1st level. Taking 1/4 of your health (or more if you're a spellcaster or other low health character) from a critical success of a Shove action is a pretty good use of a 1st action if their next action is to cast a spell that affects saving throws or even targets AC. For some classes (like Rogues, Fighters, etc.), it's even better than feinting for Sneak Attacks if enemies have high Will Saves, and enemies will provoke Attacks of Opportunity if they move or stand from that position, setting you up for more full-bonus attacks outside your turn, which also take advantage of the reduced AC for improved critical chances.
I'd totally let players take feats that let them do this sort of thing (like Monks and Fighters might be capable of it), but I probably wouldn't allow it as a base game thing for balance and realism purposes.
You can't Stride 10 Feet off a cliff either.So you fall after 5ft.
The rules are clear that if you are being pushed or pulled, it's an exception.Do you have any quote? Because what has been quoted don't say that.
The way I read the rules, forced movement is movement. You are not thrown 10 feet away you are pushed and will move through all the squares using one of your movement types. For example, if there is a pressure plate on the square behind you and you are pushed 10 feet you will activate the pressure plate by walking on it. If there is a 5 feet gap behind you and you are push 10 feet you will fall and never reach the other side of the gap. You can't Shove your allies over hazards and traps.
The rules do say that, and I already bolded the relevant part.
Next time I'm facing a Baomal, I'll be sure to point out that its Breath of the Sea Attack can't affect me because I don't have a Swim Speed.
Want to pull someone up with a rope? Sorry, that's Forced Movement, so unless they have a Climb Speed, you can't do that.
I guess casting Levitate on anyone without a Fly Speed turns them into an immovable object, as they don't have the required type of Speed to be pushed or pulled in any direction.
You can't Stride 10 Feet off a cliff either.So you fall after 5ft.
The rules are clear that if you are being pushed or pulled, it's an exception.Do you have any quote? Because what has been quoted don't say that.
The way I read the rules, forced movement is movement. You are not thrown 10 feet away you are pushed and will move through all the squares using one of your movement types. For example, if there is a pressure plate on the square behind you and you are pushed 10 feet you will activate the pressure plate by walking on it. If there is a 5 feet gap behind you and you are push 10 feet you will fall and never reach the other side of the gap. You can't Shove your allies over hazards and traps.
The rules do say that, and I already bolded the relevant part.
Next time I'm facing a Baomal, I'll be sure to point out that its Breath of the Sea Attack can't affect me because I don't have a Swim Speed.
I guess casting Levitate on anyone without a Fly Speed turns them into an immovable object, as they don't have the required type of Speed to be pushed or pulled in any direction.
The rules say: You can't be moved into a space you can't occupy because you lack the movement type to reach it.
Then, they say you can be pushed over hazardous terrain or cliffs assuming you have the ability to walk and as such you have the movement type to go through hazardous terrain or fall off a cliff. This sentence doesn't contradict the previous one, you can still not be pushed 10 feet off a cliff, you will stop after 5 feet.And yes, too bad for the Baomal, but per the rules if you lack a swim speed a Baomal can't use forced movement abilities on you.
And that's not the first time monster rules are in contradiction with the rules and I'm pretty sure the DM can apply what is the most logical course of event even if technically it's not RAW.
You can't Stride 10 Feet off a cliff either.So you fall after 5ft.
The rules are clear that if you are being pushed or pulled, it's an exception.Do you have any quote? Because what has been quoted don't say that.
The way I read the rules, forced movement is movement. You are not thrown 10 feet away you are pushed and will move through all the squares using one of your movement types. For example, if there is a pressure plate on the square behind you and you are pushed 10 feet you will activate the pressure plate by walking on it. If there is a 5 feet gap behind you and you are push 10 feet you will fall and never reach the other side of the gap. You can't Shove your allies over hazards and traps.
The rules do say that, and I already bolded the relevant part.
Next time I'm facing a Baomal, I'll be sure to point out that its Breath of the Sea Attack can't affect me because I don't have a Swim Speed.
I guess casting Levitate on anyone without a Fly Speed turns them into an immovable object, as they don't have the required type of Speed to be pushed or pulled in any direction.
The rules say: You can't be moved into a space you can't occupy because you lack the movement type to reach it.
Then, they say you can be pushed over hazardous terrain or cliffs assuming you have the ability to walk and as such you have the movement type to go through hazardous terrain or fall off a cliff. This sentence doesn't contradict the previous one, you can still not be pushed 10 feet off a cliff, you will stop after 5 feet.And yes, too bad for the Baomal, but per the rules if you lack a swim speed a Baomal can't use forced movement abilities on you.
And that's not the first time monster rules are in contradiction with the rules and I'm pretty sure the DM can apply what is the most logical course of event even if technically it's not RAW.
Your interpretation breaks the game. Even with its special text, a Roc can't carry anything that doesn't have a Fly Speed. A river can't move anything that doesn't have a Swim Speed. A Quicksand Hazard can't affect anything that doesn't have a Burrow/Swim Speed.
Your interpretation breaks the game. Even with its special text, a Roc can't carry anything that doesn't have a Fly Speed. A river can't move anything that doesn't have a Swim Speed. A Quicksand Hazard can't affect anything that doesn't have a Burrow/Swim Speed.
Wow.
So, for (1) quicksand doesn't use forced movement rules. It simply says that "creatures or objects are submerged."(2) Rocs are carrying creatures, not shoving them:
Snatch A roc can Fly at half Speed while it has a creature grabbed or restrained in either
or both of its talons, carrying that creature along with it.
(3) Swim takes care of the river
If you end your turn in water and haven’t succeeded at a
Swim action that turn, you sink 10 feet or get moved by the
current, as determined by the GM.
Which also takes care of things like the baomal, as its forced movement is considered current.
Breath of the Sea [one-action] (attack) A baomal can inhale tremendous
amounts of water, drawing everything in the sea nearby
closer. All creatures and objects in the water within
60 feet of the baomal (including ships) are
pulled toward it.
Your interpretation breaks the game. Even with its special text, a Roc can't carry anything that doesn't have a Fly Speed. A river can't move anything that doesn't have a Swim Speed. A Quicksand Hazard can't affect anything that doesn't have a Burrow/Swim Speed.Your interpretation of their interpretation seems to not include specific rules being able to trump general rules.
The reason a Roc can carry things is because it has a specific ability that says it can do so, not because it's ability relies upon a general rule (as there is no general rule that allows for taking an unwilling grabbed creature with you when you move).
It has a specific ability that allows it to move without breaking a Grapple. Nothing allowing it to circumvent Forced Movement Rules.
Luckily, this interpretation is wrong, as the Forced Movement Rules themselves cover this with "If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like."
Which is why vertical Pushing/Pulling is fine.
Your interpretation breaks the game. Even with its special text, a Roc can't carry anything that doesn't have a Fly Speed. A river can't move anything that doesn't have a Swim Speed. A Quicksand Hazard can't affect anything that doesn't have a Burrow/Swim Speed.
Specific over general
"Snatch A roc can Fly at half Speed while it has a creature grabbed or restrained in either or both of its talons, carrying that creature along with it."
A roc 100% can regardless of forced movement general rule readings.
I agree with your reading btw, I cannot see any way that it can be read to mean "move 5ft and drop like wil-e-coyote". You aren't being moved "into a space you can’t occupy", you can occupy empty air, just not for long.
I disagree that it allows for vertical shoves while you are infront of a target though :p
Your interpretation breaks the game. Even with its special text, a Roc can't carry anything that doesn't have a Fly Speed. A river can't move anything that doesn't have a Swim Speed. A Quicksand Hazard can't affect anything that doesn't have a Burrow/Swim Speed.Your interpretation of their interpretation seems to not include specific rules being able to trump general rules.
The reason a Roc can carry things is because it has a specific ability that says it can do so, not because it's ability relies upon a general rule (as there is no general rule that allows for taking an unwilling grabbed creature with you when you move).
It has a specific ability that allows it to move without breaking a Grapple. Nothing allowing it to circumvent Forced Movement Rules.
Luckily, this interpretation is wrong, as the Forced Movement Rules themselves cover this with "If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like."
Which is why vertical Pushing/Pulling is fine.
So, why is there this sentence: "If forced movement would move you into a space you can’t occupy because you lack the movement type needed to reach it you stop moving in the last space you can occupy."?
Maybe you have a reading of this sentence that says nothing at all as you just completely ignore it in your interpretation of the rules.
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Page 473 is the page I was referencing. You ignored the dominant clause of the sentence you were quoting. The clause "because you lack the movement type needed to reach it" is subordinate to "If forced movement would move you into a space you can’t occupy." I would interpret this to mean something like requiring a burrow speed to push someone through a square of loose sand.
Or perhaps into the air if they can't fly.
If you can push someone off a cliff, into a space that can make them fall. Then pushing them up into a space from which they can fall is almost exactly the same thing.
One of these is utilizing terrain and requires positioning, planning, and risk-taking, while the other can be done anywhere and at any time.
One of them also makes sense, while the other makes levitating opponents as easy and shoving them, and means there's never any reason to use Shove to actually shove anyone.I find that being too restrictive on players want to be creative in how they utilize terrain and the environment makes for a much more static and boring encounter.
This is an option for ignoring terrain and the environment, and makes an option strictly better (by giving Shove the Success result of both Shove and Trip, for one thing) so it'll be done all the time. That's not particularly creative.
Your interpretation breaks the game. Even with its special text, a Roc can't carry anything that doesn't have a Fly Speed. A river can't move anything that doesn't have a Swim Speed. A Quicksand Hazard can't affect anything that doesn't have a Burrow/Swim Speed.Your interpretation of their interpretation seems to not include specific rules being able to trump general rules.
The reason a Roc can carry things is because it has a specific ability that says it can do so, not because it's ability relies upon a general rule (as there is no general rule that allows for taking an unwilling grabbed creature with you when you move).
It has a specific ability that allows it to move without breaking a Grapple. Nothing allowing it to circumvent Forced Movement Rules.
Luckily, this interpretation is wrong, as the Forced Movement Rules themselves cover this with "If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like."
Which is why vertical Pushing/Pulling is fine.
So, why is there this sentence: "If forced movement would move you into a space you can’t occupy because you lack the movement type needed to reach it you stop moving in the last space you can occupy."?
Maybe you have a reading of this sentence that says nothing at all as you just completely ignore it in your interpretation of the rules.
It definitely has meaning. You can't be shoved inside a wall, tree, other person, etc...
More importantly, you can't be forced to Flee over a cliff, or into lava.
I find that being too restrictive on players want to be creative in how they utilize terrain and the environment makes for a much more static and boring encounter.This is an option for ignoring terrain and the environment, and makes an option strictly better (by giving Shove the Success result of both Shove and Trip, for one thing) so it'll be done all the time. That's not particularly creative.
A vertical Shove of 5 feet does nothing. It would only have any effect at all on a Critical Success. It's a risky maneuver to even attempt.
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Ah yes, you only fall prone if you take damage.
Well, a diagonal shove upward (which is actually closer to the rules, since it fits "back" and "away from you" unlike vertical straight up) accomplishes everything a Shove does, gets the Trip benefits plus higher damage as an added bonus, and makes levitating people as easy as shoving them.
I'm not sure what the risk is meant to be.
Ah yes, you only fall prone if you take damage.
Well, a diagonal shove upward (which is actually closer to the rules, since it fits "back" and "away from you" unlike vertical straight up) accomplishes everything a Shove does, gets the Trip benefits plus higher damage as an added bonus, and makes levitating people as easy as shoving them.I'm not sure what the risk is meant to be.
The risk is that if you don't get a critical success you wasted your action.
The risk is that if you don't get a critical success you wasted your action.Ah yes, you only fall prone if you take damage.
Well, a diagonal shove upward (which is actually closer to the rules, since it fits "back" and "away from you" unlike vertical straight up) accomplishes everything a Shove does, gets the Trip benefits plus higher damage as an added bonus, and makes levitating people as easy as shoving them.I'm not sure what the risk is meant to be.
Interpretation A is that success pushes your target "away" 5', and critical success pushes your target "away" 10'.
Interpretation B is that you can choose, with no change in difficulty, for success to push your target "away" 5', and critical success to push your target "away, but also up" 10' and thus also inflict some falling damage and render the target prone. And the falling damage from this method is typically superior to that which you could get from a critical success on a Trip action.
That invokes the "too good to be true" text from page 444.
Nope. I think any reasonable GM would make you declare the direction you are attempting to Shove before rolling. Nobody said anything about diagonal pushing. The way diagonal movement is measured, 10 foot diagonal movement is impossible, so that wouldn't be an option.
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I don’t believe the rules are meant to rule out shoving someone into a river. Again, the dominant clause on the sentence about movement types is that you cannot be forced into a space you cannot occupy, everything else in the sentence is subordinate to that first clause.
But even more, the rules on forced movement in PF2 are not excessively legislated. We don’t get clear definitions of pushing or pulling like other RPGs. Don’t get too bogged down in overthinking it. If the crocodile grabs someone by the rivers edge, are you going to rule that it can’t pull its target into the water because there is no action for pulling? Is my game broken because I just use shove to approximate it, since it is the action that makes the most sense?
I don’t believe the rules are meant to rule out shoving someone into a river. Again, the dominant clause on the sentence about movement types is that you cannot be forced into a space you cannot occupy, everything else in the sentence is subordinate to that first clause.
Yes. I agree.
And I contend that moving someone 10 feet vertically is Not A Thing You Can Do because generally speaking humans cannot occupy space ten feet above a horizontal surface.Not because they can't enter the volume (like with a tree) but because they can't stay there.
Cliff edges are a noted exception, subordinate to both clauses.
They can't stay at a cliff edge or a river for the same exact reasoning you're positing they can't just be in the air 10 feet above solid ground. Because by this reasoning, if I shoved a creature 10 feet in the air, you're telling me it doesn't work because they're above solid ground, but if they're 10 feet higher than the cliff they were shoved from, it's fine? No, that's shenanigans of the highest order.
It's much easier to argue you can't shove creatures in the air unless they are flying as well simply because there's too much effort required and not enough leverage to shove creatures in the air normally, contrary to what typical fighting games would demonstrate to you; they aren't exactly great examples of physics and realism that can be applicable to Pathfinder.
They are certainly nice inspirations for character abilities, but by no means should be the default norm the game expects. After all, you don't see 1st level human townsfolk throwing Hadoukens left and right...
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I don't know about you, but I find throwing Hadoukens left much harder than throwing them right.
They can't stay at a cliff edge or a river for the same exact reasoning you're positing they can't just be in the air 10 feet above solid ground. Because by this reasoning, if I shoved a creature 10 feet in the air, you're telling me it doesn't work because they're above solid ground, but if they're 10 feet higher than the cliff they were shoved from, it's fine? No, that's shenanigans of the highest order.
Challenge for you:
Without jumping or using a cliff, end up 10 feet in the air.
Now, walk off a cliff.
Which one of those were you able to do with your ability to walk?
They can't stay at a cliff edge or a river for the same exact reasoning you're positing they can't just be in the air 10 feet above solid ground. Because by this reasoning, if I shoved a creature 10 feet in the air, you're telling me it doesn't work because they're above solid ground, but if they're 10 feet higher than the cliff they were shoved from, it's fine? No, that's shenanigans of the highest order.Challenge for you:
Without jumping or using a cliff, end up 10 feet in the air.
Now, walk off a cliff.
Which one of those were you able to do with your ability to walk?
Assuming by "walk" you mean "Stride", the answer is neither. You can't actually Stride off a cliff.
STRIDE [one-action]
MOVE
You move up to your Speed (page 463).
Speed
Most characters and monsters have a speed statistic—
also called land Speed—which indicates how quickly
they can move across the ground. When you use the
Stride action, you move a number of feet equal to your
Speed. Numerous other abilities also allow you to move,
from Crawling to Leaping, and most of them are based
on your Speed in some way. Whenever a rule mentions
your Speed without specifying a type, it’s referring to
your land Speed.
All that says is that speed indicates how fast they can move across the ground not that their movement consists of only across the ground. Note the following sentence that indicates mechanics.
Otherwise you could not use a fallen tree to cross a river, or a variety of other things we can walk on that aren't literal-ground.
But no, I was referring to what it usually means to "walk." That one can take steps off edges of things and we generally don't consider it to be jumping.
All that says is that speed indicates how fast they can move across the ground not that their movement consists of only across the ground. Note the following sentence that indicates mechanics.
Otherwise you could not use a fallen tree to cross a river, or a variety of other things we can walk on that aren't literal-ground.
But no, I was referring to what it usually means to "walk." That one can take steps off edges of things and we generally don't consider it to be jumping.
Ground is commonly understood to be a horizontal surface. A felled tree can be understood to be ground. Empty air, not so much. Characters can't Stride 5 feet off a cliff Looney Toons style.
Those other mechanics are for other Actions, not Stride. You can't Stride off a cliff anymore than you can Stride up a wall.
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They can't stay at a cliff edge or a river for the same exact reasoning you're positing they can't just be in the air 10 feet above solid ground. Because by this reasoning, if I shoved a creature 10 feet in the air, you're telling me it doesn't work because they're above solid ground, but if they're 10 feet higher than the cliff they were shoved from, it's fine? No, that's shenanigans of the highest order.Challenge for you:
Without jumping or using a cliff, end up 10 feet in the air.
Now, walk off a cliff.
Which one of those were you able to do with your ability to walk?
Air Walk spell says hi. Or using Levitate.
Regardless, the point I'm making is the presence or absence of a cliff doesn't matter in determining whether you can or can't shove someone up 10 feet in the air. It's a non-sequitur in my opinion.
Air Walk spell says hi. Or using Levitate.
Both of those would be a specific exception to the phrase, "because you
lack the movement type needed to reach it." Having either of those spells cast on you does let your movement reach that location.Regardless, the point I'm making is the presence or absence of a cliff doesn't matter in determining whether you can or can't shove someone up 10 feet in the air. It's a non-sequitur in my opinion.
One requires counteracting gravity. So, unless you've got something you're doing about that...
And oh yeah, the specific exception in Forced Movement rules that says you can push people off cliffs.
Not really. Levitate requires actions spent from the caster to move the target up or down, it isn't something the target has power over, nor is it called out as an activity of movement akin to Striding. It's almost like it is its own forced movement...
And in Air Walk's case, even if you're shoved 10 feet in the air, you won't take any damage since you won't fall any distance. Or, it can be ruled you fall 10 feet plus the remaining distance you are to the ground if you're playing with a dick GM who says being shoved in the air means you can't stand normally. But no sane GM would rule that.
Not arguing you can't push people off cliffs. I'm arguing you can push people off cliffs while making them 10 feet above the elevation they were at previously prior to being shoved off said cliff. With the amount of strawmen you're making here, I'd think you're a farmer trying to keep his crops safe from all the birds.
I'm arguing you can push people off cliffs while making them 10 feet above the elevation they were at previously prior to being shoved off said cliff.
That makes no sense.
As for Air Walk and Levitate: Air Walk lets the character treat air as ground. I don't see why you couldn't Shove them upwards. Levitate makes the person float. Yes, it takes an action to move up and down, but how that interacts with Shove is unclear. I don't have an issue with them being shoved vertically (irrespective of if they fall back to their normal height or not).
What I take issue with is shoving someone who is not affected by magic into the air (without using a cliff, as we're all on the same page that you can shove people off cliffs).
I did mean can't**, and the time to edit it back has passed. Oops.
I did mean can't**, and the time to edit it back has passed. Oops.
I wondered.
I'm arguing you can't** push people off cliffs while making them 10 feet above the elevation they were at previously prior to being shoved off said cliff.
So I'll respond to this:
I never said you could or could not do that.What I said/meant about cliffs being an exception is that you can push someone off a cliff and they end up above the local ground (ie they fall down the cliff), not that they end up higher than they started (and fall 10 feet further than the height of the cliff).