Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Distant Shores (PFRPG)

Personally, I think it's a terrible idea to finally show stuff in Arcadia and have it be just a colony of white people. In fact, I'd rather not revisit the colonization of the Americas.

I doubt they will show a Syrinx's city but that would be cool if they did.

Maybe the city in the southern part of Garund will be that one with those amazon woman.

Personally, I think it's a terrible idea to finally show stuff in Arcadia and have it be just a colony of white people. In fact, I'd rather not revisit the colonization of the Americas.

In a recent episode of the TV series "Backstrom", LT Backstrom sent one of his minions to a nearby Indian reservation for some reason or other. The minion came back, and reported that he was denied access to the reservation. The reason given was "no white people allowed". The minion is black. To me, this illustrates how silly the whole "color of skin" thing is.

I think I can say it a bit better and way less racist than Alba.

My personal thought is that we have a great wealth of European-themed kingdoms and cultures in Golarion already. From Cheliax to Andoran to Taldor and Varisia and beyond, we are pretty well set with that style of gaming. And the same goes for most fantasy games out there. Dragon Age TTRPG, Lord of the Rings TTRPG, Dnd 5e.... all of them use similarly European inspired culture that we've pretty much come to expect from the standard fantasy fare. Even with some little twists here and there, it's still a bit old hat. Sure, we could add the colony aspect, but we'd still be detailing an English (or Spanish) inspired colony that also deals with the natives. It's really been done, even in Golarion (see Sargava).

What I want is a city of the natives. A city of people from Arcadia, inspired by the Pre-Columbian peoples that Arcadia takes its inspiration from, with the old Golarion twist. There are many reasons I really want this. One, it's something that isn't explored in other RPGs. There's Maztica and... that's really the only big name one I can find. And even that was removed from Forgotten Realms during 4e DnD. This would be breaking some rarely tread ground and bring on a glimpse of a setting that'd be unique and fresh. Something great to bring players and GMs alike into the cornucopia of cultural idiosyncrasies, traditions, and folklore that are from my and many other people of the Americas. Seeing a city inspired by the Aztec or Cahokia or the Taino tribes of the Caribbean mixed with magic and fantasy would be a dream come true for me. Hell, I even have a topic about it here if you desire.

Most importantly, though, going to detail with a single Native city would help to open up the ability to play Arcadians in PFS play and show GMs you can play all types of characters, both in official games and home games. I've been to plenty a game where I could not play my own ethnicity or any non-European (or hell, any non-Anglo-Saxon in some cases) because according to GM's, my people don't fit in their world. I've received the same reaction that people get when wanting to play a troll or drow with wings. It's an ugly reaction that I've unfortunately had to deal with. And the response is always the same. "There aren't Hispanic people in this setting because it's a European setting." Frankly, it sucks. But seeing this book out with a legitimate native city would help open things up for people. Maybe not myself, since I'm an adult and am too busy being all cynical and post-ironic ;)..., but for kids that were like me and always told that they can't play African characters or Hispanic characters. This gives them that opportunity to see that in action and see a world where they can feel like they fit in in this hobby.

Now, I'm not actually against any Avistani colonies in Arcadia. In my own Caribbean-inspired setting, I have some islands that are inspired by the Spanish, Dutch, French, and British colonies of the Age of Sail period. Of course, I understand the baggage that having that entails and some people really don't want to deal with that. Few people wants to play Jim Crow the RPG, or White Guilt: The Masquerade (I've met one that would though...yeesh). That said, I want the first foray into Arcadia to be a fresh and unique one that finally give me and fans of Native American myths what we've been craving for for a while; a high fantasy Pre-Columbian American world.

I agree that a colony in Arcadia would feel like a wasted opportunity. Perhaps if this was a book that dealt with Arcadia in depth, I would view a colony as worth it, but as it is, we know a lot about the Inner Sea region, and it would be easy to flesh out a colony in Arcadia founded by a nation from the Inner Sea Region. We know almost nothing about the people of Arcadia; for those who want to deal with a colony, some information about at least part of Arcadia could still allow them to create their own colony. But the culture of the colony is likely to be very much like that of wherever they come from, so insight into such a place feels rather pointless to me, at least. I'd much rather this book be able to shine a light on cultures that have received little to no attention thus far.

We can at least hope that the people of Valenhall have somewhat "gone native" in terms of their lifestyle and have regular interaction or outright cohabitation with native arcadians. I do believe the Vikings in Vinland lived in a much less exclusionary way than a lot of the later settlers. But I'm not a super expert on these issues.

I want the first foray into Arcadia to be a fresh and unique one that finally give me and fans of Native American myths what we've been craving for for a while; a high fantasy Pre-Columbian American world.

To a large extent, I agree with this. It would be a great thing IMO to see a country on Golarion with similarities to the Atzec, Mayan, Incan, Toltec, or whatever Empires. Or the Iroquois Confederacy, or the Navajo, or the Anasazi. Or, as you say, the Cahokia or the Taino. Or the Caribs for whom the region is named. But I think we also have to keep in mind that Golarion is not Earth. Nor should it be.

For those curious, we already know of a few colonies in Arcadia. From the Inner Sea World Guide:

other Avistani settlements, such as Andoran’s lumber and agricultural colony at Elesomare and Cheliax’s voracious gold mining and slaving operations at Canorus and Anchor’s End.

We can at least hope that the people of Valenhall have somewhat "gone native" in terms of their lifestyle and have regular interaction or outright cohabitation with native arcadians. I do believe the Vikings in Vinland lived in a much less exclusionary way than a lot of the later settlers. But I'm not a super expert on these issues.

It appears that Valenhall is actually fairly closed-off from native contact, although the passage is a bit vague. From the ISWG:

Guarded by einheriar and valkyries and ministered to by a trio of reclusive norns, Valenhall certainly seems to have one boot firmly planted in the supernatural world, leaving it relatively free from interference from the native peoples or other Avistani settlements

Ah, that's kind of unfortunate.

Ah, that's kind of unfortunate.

Note that all of that was written in 2011... they could have entirely new ideas about how things work now. ^_^

But I think we also have to keep in mind that Golarion is not Earth. Nor should it be.

Then the attempt to have Avistani colonization should be minimal, IMO.

But on the topic of the colonies already there...

Note that all of that was written in 2011... they could have entirely new ideas about how things work now. ^_^

Either Canorus and Anchor’s End could both become an inversion of Sargava: a place where the colonists have separated from the crown, and have positive relations with the native peoples.

It would be a great thing IMO to see a country on Golarion with similarities to the Atzec, Mayan, Incan, Toltec, or whatever Empires. (...) But I think we also have to keep in mind that Golarion is not Earth. Nor should it be.

Shouldn't it? What about all those people who want to play their ethnicity, and who want to feel included? Paizo and Pathfinder have made great strides in including women and alternate sexualities in ways not much seen in RPGs prior. I think it would be a shame if they stopped their inclusiveness when it came to people wanting to play Native American characters.

For those curious, we already know of a few colonies in Arcadia. From the Inner Sea World Guide:

Inner Sea World Guide wrote:

other Avistani settlements, such as Andoran’s lumber and agricultural colony at Elesomare and Cheliax’s voracious gold mining and slaving operations at Canorus and Anchor’s End.

Oh, yeah, I certainly know they exist, I just think it would be a waste, if we only had to go over one city, to focus on one whose cultural imprint is primarily from the Inner Sea region. We know a lot about their cultural imprints, and while it might reference some Arcadian culture, I'd rather see a more direct example. After all, if we have some Arcadian culture to go with all the stuff we know about Inner Sea cultures, it wouldn't be too hard to brainstorm how the colonies we know about might interact with it. Obviously it's still pretty limited since there should be plenty of different Arcadian cultures (it is an entire continent, after all), but I'll take what I can get.

Besides, I'll confess to wanting to see Paizo's take on non-European high fantasy culture...it seems like a real waste to only focus on it from the European high fantasy culture's point of view.

Odraude wrote:

I want the first foray into Arcadia to be a fresh and unique one that finally give me and fans of Native American myths what we've been craving for for a while; a high fantasy Pre-Columbian American world.

To a large extent, I agree with this. It would be a great thing IMO to see a country on Golarion with similarities to the Atzec, Mayan, Incan, Toltec, or whatever Empires. Or the Iroquois Confederacy, or the Navajo, or the Anasazi. Or, as you say, the Cahokia or the Taino. Or the Caribs for whom the region is named. But I think we also have to keep in mind that Golarion is not Earth. Nor should it be.

While true, looking at the Inner Sea already shows that Golarion is very inspired by Earth's Europe and North Africa. And there's no denying it. The reason we don't really acknowledge it is to us, Europe is the default of fantasy setting. Castles, knights, kings and vikings, etc are all fine... but you throw a samurai or medicine man and suddenly, people lose their mind. They don't have to be exact duplicates of their Earth counterparts, like the Inner Sea, but they can have that inspiration while putting a high fantasy twist or one's own ideas.

And like was said earlier, since Golarion isn't Earth we aren't really beholden to having Avistan colonies in Arcadia ala New World.

I would be disappointed if any of these cities on far off lands turned out to be just a Inner Sea colony.

This book looks great.

I already know Paizo are going to knock it off the park with dripping flavor, because that is what they do. I'm sure the inspiration for many stories and characters could come from this book.

I am interested in seeing if they can do well on the visuals department. This book demands a distinct visual style for each of its sections, and that will have as much impact on the value I get off the book as the writing itself. A single captivating image can go a long way to showcase a culture and an environment. And this one needs to have at the very least 6 distinct new styles.

I think some of us may have forgotten where the Hispanic culture's real roots are?! That would be Spain and Portugal, which are in Europe... Without them, you have no Hispanic culture.
While I really liked Forgotten Realms, the whole Maztica story/culture did not interest me at all. I prefer the way native tribes have been done in Varisia (the Shoanti), Realm of the Mammoth Lords, Mwangi Expanse, etc.
I am looking forward to how this will turn out. Personally, I hope to have interaction with the Inner Sea, but that is not for me to decide. I am not one of the developers! Thanks for all your efforts, Paizo and others.

an Arcadian version of Cahokia would top my list. Also a fantasy analog to New Orleans would be pretty sweet.

I would be disappointed if any of these cities on far off lands turned out to be just a Inner Sea colony.

Ditto. Korvosa and Sargava are not typically Varisian or Mwangi cities, but just 'Cheliax abroad.'

I'd much rather any Arcadian or Iblydosian cities be more representative of the local culture, than an Inner Sea invader / colonizer.

I think some of us may have forgotten where the Hispanic culture's real roots are?! That would be Spain and Portugal, which are in Europe... Without them, you have no Hispanic culture.

While I really liked Forgotten Realms, the whole Maztica story/culture did not interest me at all. I prefer the way native tribes have been done in Varisia (the Shoanti), Realm of the Mammoth Lords, Mwangi Expanse, etc.
I am looking forward to how this will turn out. Personally, I hope to have interaction with the Inner Sea, but that is not for me to decide. I am not one of the developers! Thanks for all your efforts, Paizo and others.

I didn't forget considering I am Hispanic, though you've forgotten the cultural roots for the taino and west African slaves that my people, Puerto Ricans, have. Both of which aren't in Europe. Furthermore, since it's a gaming world, there really isn't anyone stopping us from putting Hispanic culture in there without the slavery and rape and conquering. We aren't trying to recreate earth history, but making a high fantasy America. So we can chat a little. He'll I have an entire thread about that posted above.

I wonder if this product might be hint of what kind of AP we will be getting after Hell's Rebels.

Ed Reppert wrote:

It would be a great thing IMO to see a country on Golarion with similarities to the Atzec, Mayan, Incan, Toltec, or whatever Empires. (...) But I think we also have to keep in mind that Golarion is not Earth. Nor should it be.

Shouldn't it? What about all those people who want to play their ethnicity, and who want to feel included? Paizo and Pathfinder have made great strides in including women and alternate sexualities in ways not much seen in RPGs prior. I think it would be a shame if they stopped their inclusiveness when it came to people wanting to play Native American characters.

Are the Avistani peoples analogues of Terran European ethnicities? In some ways I suppose they are. Or perhaps they seem to be because there are similarities — the Shoanti to the Romany, for example. Are the people of Garund analogues of Terran African ethnicities? Same answer, pretty much. Are the people of Arcadia analogues of Terran Western Hemisphere ethnicities? I don't know; there isn't much information about them yet.

One aspect of designing a game world is providing points of similarity so that your customers can recognize and identify with the world. Another aspect is providing differences that make it clear that the game world is not Earth. I have no problem whatsoever with Paizo (or any other game world designer) providing points of similarity for a particular ethnicity, so long as the goal of that second aspect is met. If it's not, if the game world is essentially "Earth Two", I think the designers will have made a big mistake.

Just in case it got missed by anyone just chiming in on the topic of what should/could/might be presented in the book as regards Arcadia, there was this little post at the top of the previous page:

Odraude wrote:

Seconded for a native Arcadian city. We have enough Inner Sea cities. We need a glimpse into the life of the Arcadians, not the colonists.

I happen to agree.

Assuming Adam is one of the developers of this book, then, I'd say that's a good indication of the direction they are choosing to go with Arcadia.

I was just about to bring that up again, and then I scroll down and see you've taken care of that. :)

I don't want to reveal too much too soon, but the Arcadian city going into this book is not one that has been mentioned before. It will be new and not a colony.

NEED MORE ARCADIA IN MY LIFE!!!

Cant wait for this.

Well that is good to know, thanks Mr. Daigle.

I wonder if this product might be hint of what kind of AP we will be getting after Hell's Rebels.

We'll be revealing the next AP at Paizocon... but to manage expectations...

No. Distant Shores is NOT a hint about the next AP.

It appears that Valenhall is actually fairly closed-off from native contact, although the passage is a bit vague. From the ISWG:

Inner Sea World Guide wrote:

Guarded by einheriar and valkyries and ministered to by a trio of reclusive norns, Valenhall certainly seems to have one boot firmly planted in the supernatural world, leaving it relatively free from interference from the native peoples or other Avistani settlements

Valenhall is isolated, but it's a nigh-legendary realm, not the Ulfen colony. That would be Port Valen, not coincidentally located nearby.

Just in case it got missed by anyone just chiming in on the topic of what should/could/might be presented in the book as regards Arcadia, there was this little post at the top of the previous page:

Adam Daigle wrote:

Odraude wrote:

Seconded for a native Arcadian city. We have enough Inner Sea cities. We need a glimpse into the life of the Arcadians, not the colonists.

I happen to agree.

Assuming Adam is one of the developers of this book, then, I'd say that's a good indication of the direction they are choosing to go with Arcadia.

Yeah I know. I just wanted to explain why some of us want a legit Arcadia city a bit more than Alba's "no white people" comment, which certainly doesn't represent my views on the subject.

Dragon78 wrote:

I wonder if this product might be hint of what kind of AP we will be getting after Hell's Rebels.

We'll be revealing the next AP at Paizocon... but to manage expectations...

No. Distant Shores is NOT a hint about the next AP.

Is it a hint about the adventure path after that?

James Jacobs wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

I wonder if this product might be hint of what kind of AP we will be getting after Hell's Rebels.

We'll be revealing the next AP at Paizocon... but to manage expectations...

No. Distant Shores is NOT a hint about the next AP.

Is it a hint about the adventure path after that?

It's not a HINT, it's a guide!

To help steer the conversation a bit. I'm actually really happy to hear that southern Garund is getting a city Gazetteer . I've been pretty excited to see what is in store down there.

I wonder what the Iblydos city will be like.

James Jacobs wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

I wonder if this product might be hint of what kind of AP we will be getting after Hell's Rebels.

We'll be revealing the next AP at Paizocon... but to manage expectations...

No. Distant Shores is NOT a hint about the next AP.

Is it a hint about the adventure path after that?

No.

If folks really really like what we do with Distant Shores... then we might just start doing more with those Distant Shores. Sort of how the result of folks' approval and interest in Distant Worlds resulted in us having an increased presence of outer space stuff in adventure paths like Reign of Winter and Iron Gods.

I'm at least intrigued to see this product since the Inner Sea region just doesn't quite work for me. Don't know if I'll end up with this one, though, as Dragon Empires didn't work out either.

I can't wait to find out what all locations will be and the names of each respective city.

Is it too early to ask who the artists will be?

Yes. Way too early. We haven't even ordered the art yet.

My guess is that we already know the six regions in play, since the product description lists four regions -- but Arcadia is a big place, with three major Avistani colonies already known. So if Arcadia is split up into at least three regions, we have our six.

I'm not so sure. I think it will be Arcadia, Iblydos, Garund (possibly a city in Dehrukani or Holomog), Vudra, and two other things that haven't been mentioned.

One could be another Tian city, which would be cool (there is still so much of that region to explore). Maybe even something in Kaladay.

Then again, James Sutter confirmed Casmaron would be represented, but didn't say precisely how. I assumed he meant something like Iobaria or Ninshabur- maybe Ezida, but technically Vudra is a part of Casmaron and is already mentioned. It could also be a city in Kelesh, which hasn't been touched on outside of Qadira.

Having three Casmaronian cities (something in Vudra, Kelesh, and Iobaria or Ninshabur) would certainly account for a presence of that continent.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees

Yeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss sssssss!

You beat me to it!

We'll be revealing the next AP at Paizocon... but to manage expectations...

No. Distant Shores is NOT a hint about the next AP.

My heart is crushed. :( :( :( I need non-European cultures like my veins need blood.

I guess I'll just have to buy 10,000 copies of Distant Shores to show support. But where to put them. :(

James Jacobs wrote:

We'll be revealing the next AP at Paizocon... but to manage expectations...

No. Distant Shores is NOT a hint about the next AP.

My heart is crushed. :( :( :( I need non-European cultures like my veins need blood.

I guess I'll just have to buy 10,000 copies of Distant Shores to show support. But where to put them. :(

I'll take one. ^_^

Not for me; I'm buying one. But it makes a fine gift.

I don't think I know even one thousand people, let alone ten. And even among the people I know, most of them would just throw it in the garbage. And from the ones that wouldn't, I also have to be careful that I don't give one to someone who would otherwise have bought one themselves. It's a hard, hard life. #firstworldproblems

I was only talking about the copy you're giving me.

Good luck with the rest, though. ^_^

Well I hope this really, really, really sells well so we can get hardcover books about the continents.

It's a hard, hard life. #firstworldproblems

You ain't just whistling dixie, buster. #FirstWorldProblems

DragoDorn wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

I wonder if this product might be hint of what kind of AP we will be getting after Hell's Rebels.

We'll be revealing the next AP at Paizocon... but to manage expectations...

No. Distant Shores is NOT a hint about the next AP.

Is it a hint about the adventure path after that?

No.

If folks really really like what we do with Distant Shores... then we might just start doing more with those Distant Shores. Sort of how the result of folks' approval and interest in Distant Worlds resulted in us having an increased presence of outer space stuff in adventure paths like Reign of Winter and Iron Gods.

You know I'm always in favor of having new and far flung tidbits of the world revealed! Things like this will make me glad to keep the Campaign Setting line in my subscriptions.

I would love a more accurate Golarion global map or actual globe but i think it will take 2 years until we have a map with all lands and their biggest cities.

I hope this sells well and will buy 2 issues.

I´m still dreaming of a VARISIA BOXED SET with maps and a book each for Korvosa, Magnimar and Riddleport...

But i could also see the value of an Arcadia Box or Casmaron Box one day.

As long as we don´t even have Avistan complete (where are the BREVOY, FIVE KINGS MOUNTAINS and KYONIN Campaign Settings?)that will stay a dream.
So far we only have 9 out of the 27 realms that make up Avistan as Campaign Setting (Absalom as 3.5 version), 4 more as Players Handbook and 2 more in Adventure Paths.

But i am very confident that we will have a complete Golarion one fine day.