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Is there any way this conversation can maybe be moved over to the Kineticist Preview Thread, Goblinsauraus (and other folks)? I love a good in-depth mechanical discussion as much as the next guy, but the kineticist talk has already far outweighed any other topic in this thread, and there are now some other forum options for you folks to discuss the intricacies of the class now without drowning out the more general discussion of Occult Adventures in this thread. Please?
Is there any way this conversation can maybe be moved over to the Kineticist Preview Thread, Goblinsauraus (and other folks)? I love a good in-depth mechanical discussion as much as the next guy, but the kineticist talk has already far outweighed any other topic in this thread, and there are now some other forum options for you folks to discuss the intricacies of the class now without drowning out the more general discussion of Occult Adventures in this thread. Please?
So how 'bout those minor artifacts, amirite?
Where is the clairvoyant and/or precognitive character type? What about the raw combat department, a Combat Precognitive archetype for the brawler perhaps? The bard and ranger classes have a great deal they can trade off to become a different kind of psychic.
I took some time to look at the "Weapon adept" monk archetype with the trait - Threatening combatant and the following feats: improved unarmed combat, dodge, crane style, combat expertise, perfect strike (human for the bonus feat). At first level I would have a -2 on all attacks and gain a +5 AC, on top of monk AC.
As the weapon adept monk gets weapon focus instead of stunning fist; This is actually only a -1 to hit. This archetype appears to work with the unchained monk. At third level with three ranks in acrobat, fighting defensive ac bonus is bumped up to +6 AC.In a way, one could play a passive warrior who only attacks to defend.
I imagined the Magus-Kensai as a pure Martial class, only taking "spells" that could be inferred as some kind of martial feat, or instead of spell casting gained bonus feats and the brawler's martial flexibility. This is more likely an intrigue class idea.
The idea I look forward to reading about is a form of Combat precog.
I am looking forward to player made guides, optimizations, and so forth for this book. Especially for the kineticist - elemental ascetic as I am uncertain of what it has lost. Can someone clear this up for me and show me in writing what is left useable?
A little help here somebody?
I haven't looked at anything but the kineticist for me to have too much of an opinion on the other classes, but I remember the harrow medium being way too complicated for me to easily keep track and build a playtest character for. I like that it's more simplified and will check it out when I ever get the book. WHY CAN'T IT BE WEDNESDAY ALREADY?!?
I'm really liking the Amnesiac archetype for Psychic. I love me some spontaneous casters, but it can be a little bit of a downer not getting to try new stuff now and then. Amnesiac is nice middle ground, and it's cool that your spell list isn't set in stone for a spell level until you've got access to a solid number of spells known. When I get around to playing the class, it'll be that archetype with a bit of reflavoring.
So, does the PDF open up for digital purchase at Midnight PST on Wednesday? Because if that's normal practice I'm staying up late tomorrow to buy it.
I would like to know this too.
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If they had followed what you wanted Goblinsaurus the board would be filled with cries of power creep and calls of why play any other class.
You mean like Wizards, CLerics, Druids and their verious Tier one options? As well as the recent Arcanist and Psychic which are basically Wizard+
The MAth has been done. In terms of Damage potential, the Kinetecist is competing with an Expert with a bow. Burn is a needless mechanic that punishes you for bohwhat your class is designed to do and what Wizards get for practically free. While Gather Power at first seems like it can allow you some recovery, its far to risky of a mechanic for a combat oriented class and handicaps your action economy, and the open-hand requirement basically castrates some builds. Add in the Burn restriction and suddenly you are being forced into wasting more of your action economy to get back that burn in order to actually use your abilities and to make them not be complete feces.
Meanwhile Fullcasters like Wizard or ol' CoDzilla get all thier Wands, Scrolls, Cantrips, and other things to end encounters, and even a Barbarian is going more consistant damage than the Kineticist and with less risk to himself, and the Magi, Bards, and Inquisitors are able to both fulfill magical roles, Combat roles, and skill roles with ease without ever overshadowing eachother. The Kineticist can barely do the thing which it is designed for.
Saying that the Kineticist is overpowered or fairly balanced is like saying that the Core Monk is well balanced.
Personally, me, and a large amount of my associates, would've loved to have seen the uncut Kineticist that Mak had originally designed before it got gutted by JAcobs and Buhlman to make room for the Mary Sue Psychic.
Currently, as it is, IF I wanted to play a class that was similiar to Kineticist, yet could also compete and actually be useful in a party of Tier 3 classes, I'd get an Elementalist from Spheres of Power instead. At least that system understand proper power scaling in magic and the concept of level-based class balance, even if the Incanter can get a bit rediculous with the right build.
Anybody have more archetype questions that they'd like answered early?
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QuidEst, I want to play a magus-like character that channels spells through weapons in new and interesting ways. What are the pros and cons of the mindblade magus archetype versus the ectoplasmatist spiritualist archetype?
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The MAth has been done. In terms of Damage potential, the Kinetecist is competing with an Expert with a bow. Burn is a needless mechanic that punishes you for bohwhat your class is designed to do and what Wizards get for practically free. While Gather Power at first seems like it can allow you some recovery, its far to risky of a mechanic for a combat oriented class and handicaps your action economy, and the open-hand requirement basically castrates some builds. Add in the Burn restriction and suddenly you are being forced into wasting more of your action economy to get back that burn in order to actually use your abilities and to make them not be complete feces.
Build me an 11th expert that can do 53 damage every round until the end of time, while flying in a cloud, with a 40% flat dodge chance vs projectiles and evasion.
Build me an 11th level expert that can 5 foot step into the floor and start flinging 6d6+12 at you from Improved Cover with constant Stoneskin.
I can keep going.
Anybody have more archetype questions that they'd like answered early?
I'd love to know more about the Battle Host (Occultist). What this "bond" consists of and what they give up.
I'd also like to know whether the Psychic Detective (Investigator) gets knacks. (I really want an Investigator who has unlimited Detect Magic.)
Apologies for the salt, I just wish people could make up their minds already about whether Kineticists are over or underpowered.
Apologies for the salt, I just wish people could make up their minds already about whether Kineticists are over or underpowered.
It is very rare that a class is published that doesn't have concerned players with at least one of those opinions, and often both. It's not that people are being contradictory, and sometimes nobody is wrong, for their own games, since the way the game is played varies amazingly wildly from game to game.
In any case, I'm with Brandon; let's talk about some of the other things that interest you guys. I personally haven't heard much about the Running an Occult Game section, and I think it deserves some attention. I personally never realized how close my own game style was to an occult style until developing that section, and I had assumed running an occult game would be hard, but thanks to the tips from the freelancers in that section, after I finished developing it, I was able to put together an occult one-shot for Paizocon that even Brandon thought was super-cool. So that's one testimonial from a former hadn't-run-occult GM: This section helped me run an awesome occult game!
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I was able to put together an occult one-shot for Paizocon that even Brandon thought was super-cool. So that's one testimonial from a former hadn't-run-occult GM: This section helped me run an awesome occult game!
That wasn't a game, Mark--that was a frikkin' work of art.
QuidEst, I want to play a magus-like character that channels spells in new and interesting ways. What are the pros and cons of the mindblade magus archetype versus the ectoplasmatist spiritualist archetype?
Ooh, good question. I hadn't really looked into that! Somebody else will be able to speak to the differences much better, since I've never gotten around to playing a Magus.
Mindblade gets the advantage of drawing from the Magus list and cherry-picking Psychic spells as needed (starting at level 4). Losing out on the Improved/Greater Spell Combat, though, he's going to have a rough time with those +10 concentration checks. That said, charging in with a psychic greatsword means that his baseline damage is better.
Ectoplasmatist instead sticks with the Spiritualist list, making it a debuffer in combat instead of tossing out fistfuls of electric d6s. Spiritualist holds up a lot better on the concentration checks (I think), because it can spell combat with reach (I think). There also some weird uses of reach lashes, like disarming somebody and picking their weapon up from their space.
I was able to put together an occult one-shot for Paizocon that even Brandon thought was super-cool. So that's one testimonial from a former hadn't-run-occult GM: This section helped me run an awesome occult game!That wasn't a game, Mark--that was a frikkin' work of art.
I know I spoiled the "multiple layers of the onion" reveal for you, but I'd be happy to run it for you at some point!
And if anyone in the forum is interested, I might run it again next year at Paizocon in the lottery too!
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Apologies for the salt, I just wish people could make up their minds already about whether Kineticists are over or underpowered.It is very rare that a class is published that doesn't have concerned players with at least one of those opinions, and often both. It's not that people are being contradictory, and sometimes nobody is wrong, for their own games, since the way the game is played varies amazingly wildly from game to game.
In any case, I'm with Brandon; let's talk about some of the other things that interest you guys. I personally haven't heard much about the Running an Occult Game section, and I think it deserves some attention. I personally never realized how close my own game style was to an occult style until developing that section, and I had assumed running an occult game would be hard, but thanks to the tips from the freelancers in that section, after I finished developing it, I was able to put together an occult one-shot for Paizocon that even Brandon thought was super-cool. So that's one testimonial from a former hadn't-run-occult GM: This section helped me run an awesome occult game!
As if you aren't busy enough, I'd love to see the notes for such a game.
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As if you aren't busy enough, I'd love to see the notes for such a game.Apologies for the salt, I just wish people could make up their minds already about whether Kineticists are over or underpowered.It is very rare that a class is published that doesn't have concerned players with at least one of those opinions, and often both. It's not that people are being contradictory, and sometimes nobody is wrong, for their own games, since the way the game is played varies amazingly wildly from game to game.
In any case, I'm with Brandon; let's talk about some of the other things that interest you guys. I personally haven't heard much about the Running an Occult Game section, and I think it deserves some attention. I personally never realized how close my own game style was to an occult style until developing that section, and I had assumed running an occult game would be hard, but thanks to the tips from the freelancers in that section, after I finished developing it, I was able to put together an occult one-shot for Paizocon that even Brandon thought was super-cool. So that's one testimonial from a former hadn't-run-occult GM: This section helped me run an awesome occult game!
While it had strong occult themes taken directly out of Occult Adventures, including the occult classes, spells, etc, it actually has the engine behind the scenes and was instead diceless, rather than d20. Not that the corresponding section of Occult Adventures tells you to do that, mind you; it gives advice for a Pathfinder game with occult themes that also happens to be really useful no matter what system you're playing, since it's all about story, and the engine-in-the-background is just something I also did for that one-shot. I'm not sure if that would mean you would like it less or like it more ;)
Anybody have more archetype questions that they'd like answered early?I'd love to know more about the Battle Host (Occultist). What this "bond" consists of and what they give up.
I'd also like to know whether the Psychic Detective (Investigator) gets knacks. (I really want an Investigator who has unlimited Detect Magic.)
Battle Host's bond is with a weapon/armor/shield of their choice. It's masterwork and you start with it for free, so if you want to play a gun-toting Occultist, this is pretty nice. Oh, speaking of firearms, I just noticed that it's immune to the broken condition. So there's your Quick Clear Deed++. Proficiencies are as a Fighter. Anyways, it fills in for all your implements, so don't lose it (focus is still split amongst the different schools, though). Your UMD/Object Reading is just for weapons/armor/etc. Bonus combat feats replace just about all the other utility stuff that an Occultist gets, except for the ones traded in for Spiritual Ally SLA and a temporary physical stat booster ability that stacks with belts. The main drawback is that your effective implement count is reduced, so you know fewer spells.
Yes, yes they do! Cast Detect Magic to your heart's content! You draw from the Psychic list, which is great, plus you add a few detective-y spell options. Poison/alchemy stuff gets replaced by a bonus on saves vs. psychic stuff, and you get a small phrenic pool with an amplification of your choice. No Alchemist Discovery option for you, though. All in all, a very solid archetype!
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Personally, me, and a large amount of my associates, would've loved to have seen the uncut Kineticist that Mak had originally designed before it got gutted by JAcobs and Buhlman to make room for the Mary Sue Psychic.Surely it must be somewhere!
What if it... accidentally found its way into the homebrews section or the such?
Fortunately (or as fortunately as can be when space happens), the space issue became somewhat clear before I had written too much additional stuff, and then when they became even more clear (by virtue of the kineticist being over on pages dramatically), I somehow managed to shorten wording and copyfit it in order to keep in all the wild talents that I had written so far, by a hair. So there isn't finished material out there that got erased, mostly just little astral medium spirits of ideas floating around in my head but not put to the page. That said, I love homebrewing new and cool stuff for every class (wouldn't have become a designer if I didn't), and I'm always happy to chat about possible cool new wild talents and the like in a new thread in the homebrew section, or general discussion. It sounds like a really fun thread idea to me!
Ectoplasmatist instead sticks with the Spiritualist list, making it a debuffer in combat instead of tossing out fistfuls of electric d6s. Spiritualist holds up a lot better on the concentration checks (I think), because it can spell combat with reach (I think). There also some weird uses of reach lashes, like disarming somebody and picking their weapon up from their space.
Using the Spiritualist spell list is interesting. I don't remember a lot of touch attack spells on that list. Is the Ectoplasmatist still an Int based caster?
Ectoplasmatist instead sticks with the Spiritualist list, making it a debuffer in combat instead of tossing out fistfuls of electric d6s. Spiritualist holds up a lot better on the concentration checks (I think), because it can spell combat with reach (I think). There also some weird uses of reach lashes, like disarming somebody and picking their weapon up from their space.Using the Spiritualist spell list is interesting. I don't remember a lot of touch attack spells on that list. Is the Ectoplasmatist still an Int based caster?
Ectoplasmatist uses Spiritualist as the base, so it runs on Wisdom. Don't know how much touch is on it now because I haven't had time to look over the list, but a glance looks like at least two touch debuffs per spell level, with some other touch options.
Battle Host's bond is with a weapon/armor/shield of their choice. It's masterwork and you start with it for free, so if you want to play a gun-toting Occultist, this is pretty nice. Oh, speaking of firearms, I just noticed that it's immune to the broken condition. So there's your Quick Clear Deed++. Proficiencies are as a Fighter. Anyways, it fills in for all your implements, so don't lose it (focus is still split amongst the different schools, though). Your UMD/Object Reading is just for weapons/armor/etc. Bonus combat feats replace just about all the other utility stuff that an Occultist gets, except for the ones traded in for Spiritual Ally SLA and a temporary physical stat booster ability that stacks with belts. The main drawback is that your effective implement count is reduced, so you know fewer spells.Anybody have more archetype questions that they'd like answered early?I'd love to know more about the Battle Host (Occultist). What this "bond" consists of and what they give up.
I'd also like to know whether the Psychic Detective (Investigator) gets knacks. (I really want an Investigator who has unlimited Detect Magic.)
My favorite classes are those with a mix of martial and magic-user. (Hence my screen name.) I always like it when a class has an archetype that gives me the option to shift a bit more to the martial side. This one sounds pretty well-balanced.
Yes, yes they do! Cast Detect Magic to your heart's content! You draw from the Psychic list, which is great, plus you add a few detective-y spell options. Poison/alchemy stuff gets replaced by a bonus on saves vs. psychic stuff, and you get a small phrenic pool with an amplification of your choice. No Alchemist Discovery option for you, though. All in all, a very solid archetype!
You have made me very happy! :D Mechanically knacks aren't a huge deal, but having Detect Magic, and actual spells instead of elixirs, fits an Investigator flavor that I've wanted to try for a while. :D I expected to lose Alchemist Discoveries, and losing Mutagen is rough. :D But that does open up some slots for Talents that I could never fit in before. :D
I can't stop smiling. :D
Thank you so much for the information! :D
Ectoplasmatist uses Spiritualist as the base, so it runs on Wisdom. Don't know how much touch is on it now because I haven't had time to look over the list, but a glance looks like at least two touch debuffs per spell level, with some other touch options.Ectoplasmatist instead sticks with the Spiritualist list, making it a debuffer in combat instead of tossing out fistfuls of electric d6s. Spiritualist holds up a lot better on the concentration checks (I think), because it can spell combat with reach (I think). There also some weird uses of reach lashes, like disarming somebody and picking their weapon up from their space.Using the Spiritualist spell list is interesting. I don't remember a lot of touch attack spells on that list. Is the Ectoplasmatist still an Int based caster?
So we now have a CHA based Magus and a WIS based magus. I prefer Int based classes, but the Ectoplasmatist might offer some interesting multiclass options.
Thanks again!
So we now have a CHA based Magus and a WIS based magus. I prefer Int based classes, but the Ectoplasmatist might offer some interesting multiclass options.
Thanks again!
You're welcome! What I meant to say was that it is an archetype for Spiritualist that makes it more like a Magus. But effectively, yes, Magus comes in all three flavors!
My favorite classes are those with a mix of martial and magic-user. (Hence my screen name.) I always like it when a class has an archetype that gives me the option to shift a bit more to the martial side. This one sounds pretty well-balanced.
Yep! You've got a long stretch of only having two, but that's enough for Transmutation to boost your combat and then another school to fit your character.
You have made me very happy! :D Mechanically knacks aren't a huge deal, but having Detect Magic, and actual spells instead of elixirs, fits an Investigator flavor that I've wanted to try for a while. :D I expected to lose Alchemist Discoveries, and losing Mutagen is rough. :D But that does open up some slots for Talents that I could never fit in before. :D
I can't stop smiling. :D
Thank you so much for the information! :D
Oh yeah, definitely- you don't miss cantrips until they're gone. Plus, you can also pick up Two World Magic as a trait to grab any cantrip you're missing. And don't forget- with no verbal components, you can sneak around a lot better than arcane casters can.
Anybody have more archetype questions that they'd like answered early?
rwally want to play a mesmerist so is the cult leader/ master(whatever they called it) archtype any good in your opinion I got a real good character concept for it if it turns up like I hope it does.
Does the Ectoplasmatist do more stuff with the spiritualist's tentacle things? Might be able to play as The Darkness with it.
I will say only this: I have asked the fine folks on the development team to keep me apprised of kineticist-related topics, and as such, I can tell you that not only did Owen have something amazing planned for kineticists in Occult Origins, that I was like "Yes, let me write that for you please!" but also, he agreed, and furthermore, he went the extra mile got extra wordcount for it in order to make sure it could keep its full potential of extra awesome (initial...
Occult Origins might be the first Player Companion I get just for that.
WHY CAN'T IT BE WEDNESDAY ALREADY?!?
At least you don't have to wait till Thursday -.-
Create mindscape is a 4th-level spell for mediums, mesmerists, and psychics, and a 5th-level spell for sorcerers and wizards. Greater create mindscape is a 6th-level spell for mediums and mesmerists, and a 7th-level spell for sorcerers and wizards.
Decent levels, my crafter will get great use out of that spell.
The rogue archetypes should work with the unchained rogue only one possible problem and that is the false medium replaces trap sense which the unchained rogue does not have, unchained rogue has danger sense which is pretty much the same thing so just talk to your GM.
I'm pretty sure danger sense has text that lets it count as trap sense for trading it with archetypes.
Ectoplasmatist isn't a magus archetype. It's a spiritualist archetype.Ectoplasmatist uses Spiritualist as the base, so it runs on Wisdom. Don't know how much touch is on it now because I haven't had time to look over the list, but a glance looks like at least two touch debuffs per spell level, with some other touch options.Ectoplasmatist instead sticks with the Spiritualist list, making it a debuffer in combat instead of tossing out fistfuls of electric d6s. Spiritualist holds up a lot better on the concentration checks (I think), because it can spell combat with reach (I think). There also some weird uses of reach lashes, like disarming somebody and picking their weapon up from their space.Using the Spiritualist spell list is interesting. I don't remember a lot of touch attack spells on that list. Is the Ectoplasmatist still an Int based caster?So we now have a CHA based Magus and a WIS based magus. I prefer Int based classes, but the Ectoplasmatist might offer some interesting multiclass options.
Thanks again!
LOL! I was confusing it with the Esoteric Magus. My brain is mixing up "E" words. Too. much. new. information. :)
Ectoplasmatist trades away their phantom and a bunch of other stuff to get one or two lashes made out of ectoplasm that gain reach, enhancement bonuses, and a bunch of other stuff, as well as getting spiritual combat (basically spell combat) and ectoplasmic armor.
Yeah that should work for The Darkness. I still will probably make another archetype that is ectoplasmatist without spells eventually though.
Oh yeah, definitely- you don't miss cantrips until they're gone. Plus, you can also pick up Two World Magic as a trait to grab any cantrip you're missing. And don't forget- with no verbal components, you can sneak around a lot better than arcane casters can.
Two world magic is a good idea. (Ray of Frost might be nice for low level survival.) And silent spells are definitely good. That was one of the nice features of using elixirs, and I'm happy to keep it. I've been wanting to make scouting-focused Ratfolk Investigator: heavy emphasis on stealth, finding and disabling traps, etc. This archetype seems like it will work really well. And the ACG errata even changed Unconventional Inspiration so I can get free Inspiration on stealth checks!
This will be my first heavy natural weapon build. He will gradually acquire claws, bite, and tail attacks so he can eventually deliver delicious, heaping portions of Studied Combat damage and effects.
I can't wait to get this book, but between this archetype, the Promethean Alchemist, the Magus archetypes, and the Occultist class I'm not sure where I'll begin reading.
Anybody have more archetype questions that they'd like answered early?
kineticist - elemental ascetic, please show me what infusions/wild talents are useable? the description says something about not being able to use anything that has a ranged attack roll and ranged touch attack. this leaves me confused as to what is left for the Ascetic to use
Please help.
Anybody have more archetype questions that they'd like answered early?kineticist - elemental ascetic, please show me what infusions/wild talents are useable? the description says something about not being able to use anything that has a ranged attack roll and ranged touch attack. this leaves me confused as to what is left for the Ascetic to usePlease help.
I'd assume it means you can use the melee and the save based infusions.
I'd assume it means you can use the melee and the save based infusions.Anybody have more archetype questions that they'd like answered early?kineticist - elemental ascetic, please show me what infusions/wild talents are useable? the description says something about not being able to use anything that has a ranged attack roll and ranged touch attack. this leaves me confused as to what is left for the Ascetic to usePlease help.
which are what infusions and which wild talents? a list please.
Mobile Blast is like the Flaming Sphere of Wild Talents isn't it?
elemental ascetic, please show me what infusions/wild talents are useable? the description says something about not being able to use anything that has a ranged attack roll and ranged touch attack. this leaves me confused as to what is left for the Ascetic to useYou can use it with the Cloud, Cyclone, Deadly Earth, Explosion, Fan of Flames, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Whip, Mobile Blast, Spray, Torrent, and Wall form infusions. Possibly Impale, I'm unsure as to whether it's supposed to be a ranged attack roll or a melee attack roll, but I lean towards not.
My apologies to Mark if this list is too detailed and needs to be deleted.
Erm, can we narrow this down a tad by selecting Aether, telekineticist type?
*Also, I doubt this counts as "Too detailed" all I am being provided with is the names of allowed infusions and wild talents for the elemental ascetic; it is not like you are copying and pasting descriptions.
Another question; Could this Elemental Ascetic Safely punch something hazardous? (*as in the hands are wrapped in aetheric force and thus don't actually touch the foe) I am not asking for the description of the kinetic fist ability - just a Yae or Nae, and why.
Anybody have more archetype questions that they'd like answered early?kineticist - elemental ascetic, please show me what infusions/wild talents are useable? the description says something about not being able to use anything that has a ranged attack roll and ranged touch attack. this leaves me confused as to what is left for the Ascetic to usePlease help.You can use it with the Cloud, Cyclone, Deadly Earth, Explosion, Fan of Flames, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Whip, Mobile Blast, Spray, Torrent, and Wall form infusions. Possibly Impale, I'm unsure as to whether it's supposed to be a ranged attack roll or a melee attack roll, but I lean towards not.
My apologies to Mark if this list is too detailed and needs to be deleted.
The pdf is only about 29 hours away from being released. My suspicion is that this little list isn't a problem even if it might have been an issue two weeks ago.
Wow, are Psychics really supposed to get Overwhelming Presence as a 4th(!) level spell?
Wow, are Psychics really supposed to get Overwhelming Presence as a 4th(!) level spell?
Given that it's Rapport's 9th level discipline spell, I doubt it. I will ask Logan tomorrow.
Are there any archetypes or feats or other mechanisms for old classes that allow to change casting stat?
No archetypes. Didn't notice any feats. The closest is a few Int classes getting spontaneous Int options.