Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Pathfinder Unchained (OGL)

The Unchained rogue's capstone ability, Master Strike, has a DC that is based on the rogue's DEXTERITY. (The CRB rogue's Master Strike is based on Intelligence.) So every time the rogue deals sneak attack damage, it is much more likely to outright slay or incapacitate monsters.

Yes...I love options.

The Golux wrote:

Crimlock NL wrote:

I was busy looking into a beorn inspired pc (man/bear:. Druid/ranger? Druid/barb? Werebear?)..

Anything in unchained that could make a build? New multiclass rules perhaps?

Beorn is literally what the Werebear is based off of and why it is usually Lawful Good.

I know, but the werebear pc is complicated... Therefor i was wondering if there is anything with wildshape rules or something simulair in the book.

You (and your GM) might look at the wolfshifter, an alternate barbarian class in Wayfinder #5 (free!). It shouldn't take too much to reskin it into a beornshifter*. I won't be able to buy my PDF of Unchained until April 29th, but I'd be willing to take a stab at homebrewing a beornshifter VMC after I get it (assuming you'd be interested).

(* Rite introduced new shifter types in their Renegade Archetypes II, so they may have already done a bear-variant, but I don't own it yet to verify Yea or Nay.)

Crimlock NL wrote:

The Golux wrote:

Crimlock NL wrote:

I was busy looking into a beorn inspired pc (man/bear:. Druid/ranger? Druid/barb? Werebear?)..

Anything in unchained that could make a build? New multiclass rules perhaps?

Beorn is literally what the Werebear is based off of and why it is usually Lawful Good.

I know, but the werebear pc is complicated... Therefor i was wondering if there is anything with wildshape rules or something simulair in the book.

You (and your GM) might look at the wolfshifter, an alternate barbarian class in Wayfinder #5 (free!). It shouldn't take too much to reskin it into a beornshifter*. I won't be able to buy my PDF of Unchained until April 29th, but I'd be willing to take a stab at homebrewing a beornshifter VMC after I get it (assuming you'd be interested).

(* Rite introduced new shifter types in their Renegade Archetypes II, so they may have already done a bear-variant, but I don't own it yet to verify Yea or Nay.)

While I'm not familiar with Beorn, have you considered using the Skinwalkers from Paizo's Blood of the Moon? It's a race of shapeshifters, including a race variant for Werebear-kin.

This book is everything I was hoping for.

So just made my first quick monster today ...alright the quicken monster creation from Unchained is my favorite one so far. I still need to read the book more in details but as a DM...fun and quick way to make the monster that I want is basically one of the thing that I always wanted.

I've got some lined up for my next session... I'm pumped to throw new stuff at my players

Why are people asking what kind of suggestions should there be to make the Fighter class better, viable and more appealing? I outlined like 6 of them already.

1) Stamina system only for Fighters and based on Fighter level. Being able to pull more oomph out of a Combat Feat should be something they master and others are forced to multiclass to do the same.

2) Their DR when wearing armor should be early and scale as they level. When using shields, they should get their shield bonus to Reflex saves. They should also receive Evasion when equipped with a heavy shield or tower shield later on. The AC they receive from armor should go up as well. A Paladin wearing full plate gets +9, but a Fighter should pull out more, and scale as he levels for any armor he wears.

3) They should be able to apply their feats that choose one weapon (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specializaing) to apply to a group of weapons instead of just one.

4) Archetypes should be free. No replacements. The Fighter should be the only class to get an archetype to give them a theme and focus for what kind of Fighter they should be. Think of it as a Sorcerer choosing their Bloodline.

5A) Style Attacks, like the Unchained Monk, should also be given to them receiving more as they level.

5B) Maybe Combat Tricks instead of (or in addition to) Style Strikes, like how Rogue gets Talents and a Barbarian gets Rage Powers, should be given to fill up dead levels. Maybe not one at 2nd and every two levels thereafter, but maybe one at 4th and every 4 levels thereafter. The tricks could help focus on stuff like move and get a full attack, antimagic abilities, rerolling Fortitude or Reflex save twice and taking the best result, Stalwart, and so on

6) More Fighter only feats

And, yes, all this in addition to bonus Combat Feats. Now you will have a real Fighter.

You know. Some of that I can get behind. I'm still not sure on all of that, but most of it is pretty obvious. I think I'm starting to get pulled into the Pro-Change for Fighter pool.

1) I still dunno if Stamina should be exclusive, but I'm all for it getting better with more Fighter levels specifically, and at least everybody else having to feat in. I still think extra stamina per combat feat might help, but I can see where you're going.

2) Dunno about the shield bonus to reflex, but I also wouldn't complain about it. Armor training getting a boost would be cool.

3) Seems like an obvious choice to make the Fighter more likeable, and it's not like it's overpowered at all.

4) Eh. I'm a little more iffy on this. Even if it's just one free archetype.

5 and 6) Actually, sorta the same thing to me. They should make more combat feats that work like special attacks. And they gotta be more powerful. They gotta be things that you'll WANT to have. That you'll build around. There's a few neat things like this already, but we need more.

The only problem I think with that as a solution is that it doesn't stop classes with fighter feats from taking em. It's not really a problem for me, but I could see it being one for some of the others in this thread.

Honestly though, with how mix and match pathfinder is, anything being exclusive to one class at all feels weird at this point. I mean this still isn't a lot of change though. We'd have to see more of those fighter only special attack feats, and we'd have to see them be more effective on a fighter than like, a warpriest or whatever. Maybe by sheer number of them?

And of course, Bravery should give immunity to fear.

So to recap what I could dig is small boosts to Weapon and Armor training, including kind of a big boost actually of the DR from armor coming sooner, Fear Immunity, Stamina working better with a fighter, better than currently, and more "fighter only" feats that you'd want, that are super cool. That's what I could go for, but I still don't see anything exclusive. If we're being completely honest, that several Rogue features and Monk features from Unchained are exclusive are a little weird to me even.

I've a question concerning the Variant Multiclass for the Bard.

The multiclass ability for the Bard includes Inspire Competence and Courage at 7th level as per a bard of the level -4 (thus starting at 3rd level).

This I assume is a Standard Action as per normal Bardic Song and can be in the next round continued as a Free Action?

Seeing the ability levels up as per a Bard, does this mean at level 11 (effective 7th level Bard) the ability to start this Song is now a Move action? And at level 17 (effectively 13th level Bard) it becomes a Swift action?

I've a question concerning the Variant Multiclass for the Bard.

The multiclass ability for the Bard includes Inspire Competence and Courage at 7th level as per a bard of the level -4 (thus starting at 3rd level).

This I assume is a Standard Action as per normal Bardic Song and can be in the next round continued as a Free Action?

Seeing the ability levels up as per a Bard, does this mean at level 11 (effective 7th level Bard) the ability to start this Song is now a Move action? And at level 17 (effectively 13th level Bard) it becomes a Swift action?

Pretty sure, yeah.

Nope. I think. Technically, you gain Inspire Competence and Inspire Courage, as a Bard of the level -4, and it happens to be called Bardic Performance. You don't gain the Bardic Performance class feature. Maybe this is an oversight?

Anyways, definitely should be house ruled as yes. And this is the book most inspiring house ruling.

I was just thinking of the loads of fun to be had with an Half-Elf Investigator who took VMC Magus. He'd be able to get Arcane Deed arcanas to pilfer Swashbuckler Deeds. Combined with his Studied Combat and Inspiration stuff and Precise Strike and maybe a Inspired Rapier really big bonuses on attack/damage. All precision damage though.

Plus having Alchemy thrown in.

BTW, do NPC's have their own progression table for the Big Six-less system or do they get the same bonuses players get? If they do get them, that'd be a huge upgrade to NPC opponents in AP's. ^^

BTW, do NPC's have their own progression table for the Big Six-less system or do they get the same bonuses players get? If they do get them, that'd be a huge upgrade to NPC opponents in AP's. ^^

You should probably put them one level lower, as their CR is considered one lower. This will indeed still be an upgrade (with a size that varies depending on their gear allocation and how much was in the Big 6 already), but honestly, it's probably more in line with what their challenge likely should be, there just wasn't a way to do it before without overloading your PCs on gear every time they win a fight.

magnuskn wrote:

BTW, do NPC's have their own progression table for the Big Six-less system or do they get the same bonuses players get? If they do get them, that'd be a huge upgrade to NPC opponents in AP's. ^^

You should probably put them one level lower, as their CR is considered one lower. This will indeed still be an upgrade (with a size that varies depending on their gear allocation and how much was in the Big 6 already), but honestly, it's probably more in line with what their challenge likely should be, there just wasn't a way to do it before without overloading your PCs on gear every time they win a fight.

I don't know if there's a method to high-five someone through the internet, but consider yourself high-fived. Because that was exactly one of the main problems with NPC's, that they suffered from a distinct lack of equipment compared to PC's, but you couldn't give it to them without overloading the WBL system.

Thanks, Mark. :) Although I probably won't be able to convince my groups to change to the new system mid-campaign. ;)

You should probably put them one level lower, as their CR is considered one lower. This will indeed still be an upgrade (with a size that varies depending on their gear allocation and how much was in the Big 6 already), but honestly, it's probably more in line with what their challenge likely should be, there just wasn't a way to do it before without overloading your PCs on gear every time they win a fight.

I'll probably pick the level that corresponds to the NPC gear as compared to PC gear, references those two tables in the CRB.

Tracking has my copy as 'out for delivery'. I can't wait to get my hands on it. From the descriptions its everything I wanted.

I must admit to some curiosity as to how you could mix and match the Automatic Bonus Progression that replaces certain aspects of magic items (such as negating the need for Rings of Protection, Cloaks of Resistance, and the like) with Scaling Items, especially with items like the Armor of the Celestial Host, the Dragonshield, or the Thirsting Blade.

For that matter, it might be interesting to see the third party publishers who will inevitably create a Scaling Item Guide to also provide an alternative for Scaling Items that also use the ABP.

I must admit to some curiosity as to how you could mix and match the Automatic Bonus Progression that replaces certain aspects of magic items (such as negating the need for Rings of Protection, Cloaks of Resistance, and the like) with Scaling Items, especially with items like the Armor of the Celestial Host, the Dragonshield, or the Thirsting Blade.

For that matter, it might be interesting to see the third party publishers who will inevitably create a Scaling Item Guide to also provide an alternative for Scaling Items that also use the ABP.

I don't think they're meant to be used together. I suppose one could adjust both systems so that they "add" up together.

That got me thinking that maybe someone could post something in the Homebrew thread. But then where do questions asking for clarification about the content in Pathfinder Unchained go: Rules Questions or Homebrew?

Mark Seifter wrote:

You should probably put them one level lower, as their CR is considered one lower. This will indeed still be an upgrade (with a size that varies depending on their gear allocation and how much was in the Big 6 already), but honestly, it's probably more in line with what their challenge likely should be, there just wasn't a way to do it before without overloading your PCs on gear every time they win a fight.

I'll probably pick the level that corresponds to the NPC gear as compared to PC gear, references those two tables in the CRB.

But then again, if you are looking for a simpler way to make NPCs, it seems like the Monster Creation chapter is the easiest way to go about it. I just started looking at it today, and it is impressive. Think the Monster Creation chart from page 291 of the Bestiary, but more detailed so that it accounts for a Combatant, Expert, or Spellcaster, and it gives you base Fort, Reflex and Will saves, AC (all 3 types), skill modifiers, ability modifiers, and CMD to work with as well. Then on top of that you can use one of the Class Grafts (there's one for each core and base class pre-Advanced Class Guide, with a chart giving guidance for how to implement those classes as well), which further points you to sub-branches where you can pick abilities akin to class features, spells and spell-like abilities, etc.

It's comparable to the Pathfinder Strategy Guide, but for GMs. And on steroids.

I just got my hard copy today, and just a brief skimming of this section showed me that there is an IMMENSE amount of thought and "crunch" and ease-of-use that has been put into this book.

You should probably put them one level lower, as their CR is considered one lower. This will indeed still be an upgrade (with a size that varies depending on their gear allocation and how much was in the Big 6 already), but honestly, it's probably more in line with what their challenge likely should be, there just wasn't a way to do it before without overloading your PCs on gear every time they win a fight.

As someone who started D&D with 4th ed I will find it really interesting if everyone hails this as the big solution to the NPCs make players too wealthy problem or if everyone embraces the simpler monster creation rules and apply it to NPCs. After all, I thought the greatest thing of 3.5e/Pathfinder was that NPCs and PCs were built with the same rules ;)

As someone who started D&D with 4th ed I will find it really interesting if everyone hails this as the big solution to the NPCs make players too wealthy problem or if everyone embraces the simpler monster creation rules and apply it to NPCs. After all, I thought the greatest thing of 3.5e/Pathfinder was that NPCs and PCs were built with the same rules ;)

I think that there are a couple of factors in play here.

This is a book about options, so different approaches are going to appeal to different people and for different reasons. Some GMs hand-wave NPC stats as they believe there is little benefit in developing an NPC that will get minimal "screen time". While I understand the position, I do find it slightly amusing as no one seems to take issue with Bestiaries full of things that may get minimal screen time.

For some GMs, it's just about having time-savers handy, which I completely understand.

I also think with 4e losing steam and the long 5e development cycle, some 4e fans diverted to PF, so seeing some 4e design principles embraced doesn't surprise me. Keeping most of these cordoned off behind Option walls seems like a smart move to me on Paizo's part.

Personally, I've always found that detailed NPCs make the game easier to run, not harder, and the time I spend creating NPCs is never wasted as it is easier for me to bring a developed character to life than a 3-sentence description with reused stats. YMMV.

However, I think the thing that really cemented by preference for PCs & NPCs using the same rules goes back to a session from before the 3e launch. My players had just defeated a major villain of the campaign and in the post-game discussion they were talking about how epic and memorable defeating the villain was for them. They began asking some questions about some of the villain's abilities, trying to reconcile them with their knowledge of the game. When they learned that the game supported different rules for PCs and NPCs, some were deflated and some were outright passed off, but the group as a whole was soured by the news. In their eyes, my villain went from a mightier opponent to a GM "cheat". I've never forgotten that session and I've had similar experiences with other players and groups over the years where systems play by different rules for PCs vs. NPCs or monsters.

I won't go so far as to say consistent rules for PCs & NPCs is PF's "greatest thing" but it's definitely a big feature, not a bug. So, while I don't expect to really use the simplified monster-building rules for monster or NPCs, I don't begrudge them being in a book about options - even if it's a significant section of the book. I do not, however, want that to become the "standard method" for handling NPCs or monsters. Ever.

Oh, and it's been more than 7 business days since my subscription order - can I PLEASE GET MY PDF?!??!? This has become an unbearable teaser-thread AND I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!

Thank you. :)

(goes back to updating my Downloads page..)

For the rest of us:

6 days, 16 hours, 30 minutes, 23 seconds

{sigh}

Oh, and it's been more than 7 business days since my subscription order - can I PLEASE GET MY PDF?!??!? This has become an unbearable teaser-thread AND I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!

Thank you. :)

(goes back to updating my Downloads page..)

Same here! I've been waiting for almost 2 weeks and the lack of PDF is driving me crazy! D:

I'm probably going to get some good use out of hte fast monster creation rules. I've got a plan to run a campaign that uses every Miniature I have and seeing how I went in on both Reaper Bones kickstarters, I have a heck of a lot of them. More relevant it includes a few strange things that don't have stats in any of the beastiaries.

Being able to stat up a Sarlacc Pit in a hurry is going to be handy.

So the inner sadist in me wants to mention what came in the mail today...

Reading the AP in the shipment now.

I got it in the mail yesterday and spent the rest of the day reading. I like it although some of it I won't use do to the complexity of translating; some players have trouble grasping the rules as it is, I don't need them fiddling around between books because they need to find out what their stamina'd feats do.

Oh boy wizard VMC being able to take any wizard discovery...this is pretty beast. So anybody with Wizard VMC at level 15, can take true name and get a 18 HD outsider buddy? Best trade for a feat ever.

Oh boy wizard VMC being able to take any wizard discovery...this is pretty beast. So anybody with Wizard VMC at level 15, can take true name and get a 18 HD outsider buddy? Best trade for a feat ever.

Yeah, I think that looking over them as trades for feats like that, it becomes clear that the package deal of VMC is pretty strong, especially if you set up a favorable situation or combo. A lot of people seem to finding some really good combos!

So the inner sadist in me wants to mention what came in the mail today...

Reading the AP in the shipment now.

Lol. Hope your inner sadist doesn't encounter my outer baseball bat!

Congrats, you rat bastard. :)

Does the VMC Wizard get the first levels school power of his chosen school? If so, I'd probably go with Air on a number of characters. That at-will fly at 10th level is hard to pass up.

Does the VMC Wizard get the first levels school power of his chosen school? If so, I'd probably go with Air on a number of characters. That at-will fly at 10th level is hard to pass up.

Yes they do. But they have to wait until level 7 to get the 1st level powers of the school. But well considering that you don't get to fly until level 10, it's not a problem at all. Your character level = wizard effective level for purpose of school powers.

Tels wrote:

Does the VMC Wizard get the first levels school power of his chosen school? If so, I'd probably go with Air on a number of characters. That at-will fly at 10th level is hard to pass up.

Yes they do. But they have to wait until level 7 to get the 1st level powers of the school. But well considering that you don't get to fly until level 10, it's not a problem at all. Your character level = wizard effective level for purpose of school powers.

Hmm... Archer Fighters just got a lot more annoying to deal with.

Eltacolibre wrote:

Tels wrote:

Does the VMC Wizard get the first levels school power of his chosen school? If so, I'd probably go with Air on a number of characters. That at-will fly at 10th level is hard to pass up.

Yes they do. But they have to wait until level 7 to get the 1st level powers of the school. But well considering that you don't get to fly until level 10, it's not a problem at all. Your character level = wizard effective level for purpose of school powers.

Hmm... Archer Fighters just got a lot more annoying to deal with.

Are we sure the VMC would grant Air Supremacy and not Lightning Flash? (Or does it do both?)

(Obviously, I don't have the book...)

It does both. It say 1st level school powers, you get both. VMC wizard is 10/10 in my eyes in general, lot of useful stuffs.

So what does Lore do? All I have heard mentioned is that it's a very specific version of Knowledge, but that doesn't really seem that different than normal knowledge. So, why would someone invest in that skill?

It does both. It say 1st level school powers, you get both. VMC wizard is 10/10 in my eyes in general, lot of useful stuffs.

It does have one slightly weaker level than the others (11), but that's intentional because the rest is really good.

Eltacolibre wrote:

It does both. It say 1st level school powers, you get both. VMC wizard is 10/10 in my eyes in general, lot of useful stuffs.

It does have one slightly weaker level than the others (11), but that's intentional because the rest is really good.

Yikes, yeah. Shapechange, Air, Foresight ... All great.

Here's another question: how does Automatic Bonus Progression impact monsters like Giants or Ogres or other critters who can wield weapons and the like?

Here's another question: how does Automatic Bonus Progression impact monsters like Giants or Ogres or other critters who can wield weapons and the like?

I'd say that since in general monsters in the bestiaries are balanced assuming they don't have numerical boosts from their treasure, you probably don't want to give them those bumps. But if you're adding 3 fighter levels to an ogre? Well, then it says you're supposed to gear them out like an NPC, and you can use the auto progression instead of buying all those nitpicky items, so that just got easier! (even if you're not using the easier monster creation from Chapter 5)

So far I have only had one legitimate wtf moment reading this. and that would be the Greater Feint combat trick.

For those who don't have the book, it basically says as long as you have 1 stamina point you can feint as a swift, HOWEVER doing so makes the target flatfooted against ONLY your NEXT ATTACK, not any others you make that round.

Why would anybody ever use this? Swift actions are already used so much for more important things: Studied Target, Ki, Arcane pool, deeds, a lot of feats changing the type of actions, etc. Also having greater feint means you can already do it as a move action because of improved, plus he is flat-footed for all of your other allies and against any AoO's he provokes.
The only reason I could see for wanted to feint as a swift action was to get a full-attack, which doesn't work with this combat trick at all.

Anybody else agree? any ideas how to fix it via houseruling?

Sneak attack would be a reason.

Sneak attack would be a reason.

you can sneak attack without using the combat trick...what's your point?

So far I have only had one legitimate wtf moment reading this. and that would be the Greater Feint combat trick.

For those who don't have the book, it basically says as long as you have 1 stamina point you can feint as a swift, HOWEVER doing so makes the target flatfooted against ONLY your NEXT ATTACK, not any others you make that round.

Why would anybody ever use this? Swift actions are already used so much for more important things: Studied Target, Ki, Arcane pool, deeds, a lot of feats changing the type of actions, etc. Also having greater feint means you can already do it as a move action because of improved, plus he is flat-footed for all of your other allies and against any AoO's he provokes.
The only reason I could see for wanted to feint as a swift action was to get a full-attack, which doesn't work with this combat trick at all.

Anybody else agree? any ideas how to fix it via houseruling?

Sap Adept/Sap Master comes to mind. It also allows for a Rogue to use a feat like Spring Attack to move up, swift action feint, attack, and then move away and get his sneak attack off.

By the way, keep in mind that making a target flat-footed is a lot harder to do as opposed to denying them their dexterity bonus to AC.

Eltacolibre wrote:

Sneak attack would be a reason.

you can sneak attack without using the combat trick...what's your point?

It would be a weird specific situation but basically sneak attack and feint here how it goes:

-you sneak attack one guy, kill him. His buddy is nearby and not flat footed during your full attack, swift action to feint him, as you throw your dagger at him for sneak attack damage.

Sap Adept/Sap Master comes to mind. It also allows for a Rogue to use a feat like Spring Attack to move up, swift action feint, attack, and then move away and get his sneak attack off.

By the way, keep in mind that making a target flat-footed is a lot harder to do as opposed to denying them their dexterity bonus to AC.

Spring attack does seem viable with this, but how many people really use spring attack? I have never used it, I can see how this may allow for more use of it, though that is assuming GMs allow stamina for all classes, and it seems to me because of all the complaints about the fighter that may not be the case for a lot of them.

I just feel like instead it would be better to spend 1 or 2 stamina points to feint as a swift action. that's it, no limiting the duration of the effect or anything, I mean the whole reason you get Greater Feint is so that you can make your enemy flat-footed for the whole round, I don't think it's worth getting for the sole purpose of using it with spring attack.

I don't want to derail this any further into a debate...

WOW.... just WOW.

Just got my PDF this evening but first impressions are that this book is everything that I hoped for and more. The number of levers and switches that this book provides is staggering.

It's been called PF's Unearthed Arcana but this is a much more useful & coherent collection of optional rules than any Unearthed Arcana book I've owned previously. It also appears to have avoided the missteps of earlier variants like Ultimate Combat's Wounds/Vitality and Armor as DR.

For everyone who's ever been told "you can't use Pathfinder to run that type of game because X is too ingrained or hard-wired into it", this is the book for you. Skill systems, wound thresholds, ways to customize spellcasting, the Stamina system, the inherent bonus system... there is so much here.

It will take me a while to determine what to include & use but there is so much of it that I want to try!

For anyone who has heard people say that Paizo is running out of design space with the Pathfinder rules - this book shows what a hollow lie (misperception if you prefer) that is.

I just want to thank Paizo and all of the developers and staff who worked on this book. You have my sincere thanks.

So far I have only had one legitimate wtf moment reading this. and that would be the Greater Feint combat trick.

For those who don't have the book, it basically says as long as you have 1 stamina point you can feint as a swift, HOWEVER doing so makes the target flatfooted against ONLY your NEXT ATTACK, not any others you make that round.

Why would anybody ever use this?

Got a really high AC/dex enemy that no-one can hit? Swift action feint, declare Stunning fist, let the rogue and everyone else kill him on their turns.

I forgot if it was mentioned, does it have rules for VMC the ACG classes? If so what is it for Bloodrager, Warpriest, and Brawler?