Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods (PFRPG) Hardcover

Erik Mona wrote:

Fnipernackle wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

A "god" writeup of Razmir sounds like a good thing for a Razmiran sourcebook rather than a gods sourcebook.

Is a Razmiran book even going to be put out?

I will publish it as soon as Jason Bulmahn writes it.

Meanwhile, in the other part of the building...

Wes: Hey Jason, when are you going to write the Razmiran book?
Jason: Oh, I'll get to that once Erik writes the one about Nex.

Buuuuuuurrrrrnn.

You guise, we will totally get to Razmir. I'm in Jason's current campaign and he has been doing all sorts of awesome stuff about them. Let me just say that after the last few weeks of Jason's game I am 100% confident that I hate the Cult of Razmir more than any of you, and the desire to spread Jason's particular blend of "I am screwing you over right in front of your face and smiling because there is nothing you can do about it" to as many campaigns as possible (i.e. "yours") is overwhelming.

I am certain all of this campaign material will find its way into a Bulmahn project soon enough. He is currently working on Bone Keep for Pathfinder Society, and after that I will start lobbying him hard to turn some of this campaign stuff into a book. It's brilliant and you fine folks really should have it.

I am interested in some of the core Deities such as Shelyn, Desna, and Rovagug. But I am really interested in the lesser knowm ones like Brigh.

You guise, we will totally get to Razmir. I'm in Jason's current campaign and he has been doing all sorts of awesome stuff about them. Let me just say that after the last few weeks of Jason's game I am 100% confident that I hate the Cult of Razmir more than any of you, and the desire to spread Jason's particular blend of "I am screwing you over right in front of your face and smiling because there is nothing you can do about it" to as many campaigns as possible (i.e. "yours") is overwhelming.

I am certain all of this campaign material will find its way into a Bulmahn project soon enough. He is currently working on Bone Keep for Pathfinder Society, and after that I will start lobbying him hard to turn some of this campaign stuff into a book. It's brilliant and you fine folks really should have it.

Thank you for this post, sir. This is enough to shut me up...for a while. I expect this content to be published now.

As for screwing me over, you've got the wrong idea. I love Razmir, and my next character is a Razmiran Priest so that I can be the one smiling!

You guise, we will totally get to Razmir. I'm in Jason's current campaign and he has been doing all sorts of awesome stuff about them. Let me just say that after the last few weeks of Jason's game I am 100% confident that I hate the Cult of Razmir more than any of you, and the desire to spread Jason's particular blend of "I am screwing you over right in front of your face and smiling because there is nothing you can do about it" to as many campaigns as possible (i.e. "yours") is overwhelming.

I am certain all of this campaign material will find its way into a Bulmahn project soon enough. He is currently working on Bone Keep for Pathfinder Society, and after that I will start lobbying him hard to turn some of this campaign stuff into a book. It's brilliant and you fine folks really should have it.

Sweet!

And, bonus, if there's a standalone product that deals with Razmir eventually, there may end up being *more* room to dedicate to his 'church' than there would be packed into a book with 30+ actual gods!

That would be just extra saucy, if Razmir ends up with more pagecount at the end of the day than 'real gods' like Desna or Zon-Kuthon... :)

Quandary wrote:

Is this covering the Gods of the Inner Sea, or the Gods of Golarion as a whole?

The Title sort of conflicts with the given description...?

Kinda sounds like a huge fusion of Gods and Magic, with Faiths of Purity, Balance, and Corruption, potentially with Champions of Purity and/or Chronicles of the Righteous and the Books of the Damned.

agree...which makes me wonder why.

I think that was answered above. Gods and Magic is about to go out of print. So, this is the time to do a major update/compilation of lots of god info. I strongly suspect there's going to be more in here than was in the list you give as well. I also suspect that there will be little reprinting of Chronicle of the Righteous, because that's recent, and because SKR pretty much said that above.

It will be interesting how much overlap there is with the Faiths of books, but even if there is a lot, it doesn't obsolete them. Players who don't want the full huge-on hardcover can still get the Players Companion book that covers their characters' alignments.

May I request that the Inner Sea deities covered in this book get a "stat block" (for lack of a better term) like that presented for the deities of Tian Xia?
(i.e. Not just the basics of alignment, portfolio, symbol, domains, favored weapon, centres of worship, & nationality, but also including subdomains & sacred animal[s] -- maybe even add home-plane/realm?)

Please & thank you.

Carry on!

-- C.

I'm looking forward to more information on less developed 'lesser' gods, like Alseta, Brigh and Sivanah, as well as the elven gods!

Hear hear.

Naderi being my current favorite.

I like the idea of adding home plane/realm, subdomains and sacred animals to there "stats".

As an eternal fanboy of Cayden's accidental herald, I humbly request that Thais be given an updated statblock and new artwork in this manual.

Also, please consider including additional content about the Dwarven and Elven deities (especially some of the Dwarven ones). Torag is nice and all that jazz but it's getting hard for my neice to roleplay her merciful healer Cleric of Bolka.

Unlike other hardcovers and source books where there are different artists throughout, will this book have one artist depicting all the Gods of Golarion?...(I hope so *crosses fingers*)

I want to read more on the racial demi-gods.

We're making sure that each of the main deity writeups has all of the same structural elements (a priest's role, dogma, relations with other religions).

Will this also include things like hierarchy and structure, clerical titles, premier shrines, etc.?

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

We're making sure that each of the main deity writeups has all of the same structural elements (a priest's role, dogma, relations with other religions).

Will this also include things like hierarchy and structure, clerical titles, premier shrines, etc.?

This is what I most want... the titles of the priests and the types of rituals/activities that set them apart from the 'average' follower. Less about the gods in general (we have many books on those)more on how to RP a PRIEST of that deity!!!!

This is what I most want... the titles of the priests and the types of rituals/activities that set them apart from the 'average' follower. Less about the gods in general (we have many books on those)more on how to RP a PRIEST of that deity!!!!

Definitely, I sort of miss that crazy table in the back of the old Deities and Demigods with the favored animals and favored colors of clothing and sacred days and sacrifice types, etc.

put my 2cp down for Demitgods and avatars

Definitely, I sort of miss that crazy table in the back of the old Deities and Demigods with the favored animals and favored colors of clothing and sacred days and sacrifice types, etc.

+1 to crazy tables. Lots of tables

phantom1592 wrote:

This is what I most want... the titles of the priests and the types of rituals/activities that set them apart from the 'average' follower. Less about the gods in general (we have many books on those)more on how to RP a PRIEST of that deity!!!!

Only problem with that is there may be several or even many independent church hierarchies with different rules, priestly roles, etc.

Set wrote:

phantom1592 wrote:

This is what I most want... the titles of the priests and the types of rituals/activities that set them apart from the 'average' follower. Less about the gods in general (we have many books on those)more on how to RP a PRIEST of that deity!!!!

Only problem with that is there may be several or even many independent church hierarchies with different rules, priestly roles, etc.

I recall that Faiths & Avatars touched upon some of these varying beliefs and different orders and the like too, so that's fine! =)

Some stats for some of the most powerful clergy members of these gods would be nice too!

Some stats for some of the most powerful clergy members of these gods would be nice too!

That's not only beyond the scope of the book (which focuses more on the gods than the people who worship them), but it's also not something we have room for.

Fortunately, we've plenty of other opportunities to stat up worshipers of the gods in other products and adventures.

It would be great to also have more info about the Peacock Spirit if you can squeeze more info about it in the book. The current info is pretty thin...

What I would love to see is more neutral gods, even if only "lesser" gods.

It would be great to also have more info about the Peacock Spirit if you can squeeze more info about it in the book. The current info is pretty thin...

That info will remain thin for some time.

My plans for the Peacock Spirit are not yet ready for the public.

Naderi being my current favorite.

I keep focusing on the drama between Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon so much that I keep forgetting about Naderi, but every time she pops back up....man. For a minor neutral deity that has yet to step anywhere near the spotlight anywhere, she and the implications of her following are both tragic and chilling.

It's too easy to imagine a parent of teens looking at the local priest of Asmodeus with nothing more than distaste and duspicion while being worried to death by rumors that Naderi worship has caught on amongst some of the youth...

I might lean on Wes to get him to have me write the Naderi section (I invented her, after all).

Sounds interesting to me, I am all for obscure stuff.

Of the minors who get little mention, I'm most intrigued by Alseta. (Brigh and Sivanah as well, but they get mentioned more.)

My one hope is that there will be a nice lovely table summarizing ALL the gods, or as much as is possible, and their most important crunch details. The 3.0 FRCS two-page spread with ALL the human deities (except the Egyptian ones) is one of my most opened spreads in that book. It's very user-friendly when you can see all your options in a single view without having to turn pages. So something like that would be awesome.

I'm mostly ready for more information regarding the Gray Lady :)

I've (for the most part) grown out of my goth-kid days, but by good golly miss Molly I love me some Lady of Graves :DD

Sandman's Death + True Neutral + Hates Undead + Arbiter of Souls = Happy Me

Hmm.

I'm really hoping to see the Ancient Osiriani gods given some details here, along with other dead gods - Aroden, the Thassilonian ones... but mainly the Osiriani ones. Actually, just cut out Erastil and give them his page count :p .

I'm also really hoping for a couple of completely new deities.

I would love to see at least some new Deities covered in this book.

As someone who already has Gods & Magic, Faiths of Purity, the Inner Sea World Guide and a good number of divinity articles from 6 different APs, and who doesn't care too much about the "gathering all the information in one place" part, what would I be getting out of this product?

Just trying to get a sense of whether this is for me or somewhat superfluous. If I mostly get stuff I already have, I probably won't be interested.

I would really like to see them flesh out cultural details for different gods.
Differences in how for example the Elves see a specific god, VS how the Dwarves see that same god, or the Orcs, or even older human cultures like Azlant.

I would really like to see them flesh out cultural details for different gods.

Differences in how for example the Elves see a specific god, VS how the Dwarves see that same god, or the Orcs, or even older human cultures like Azlant.

Neat thought.

Desna and Nethys are considered 'elven' gods, as well as human gods, so it would be neat how differently they are viewed in Kyonin, as compared to by Varisians or Osirioni.

Toragite dwarven faith seems the default, but Gods & Magic also lists Abadar and Irori as dwarven gods. Irori, in particular, as a preferred dwarven god, is fascinating.

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

Just to get this on the table: I not only want, but demand, that this include reprints/rewrites of SKR's writeups.

In fact, those writeups are going to form the backbone of the book. They'll mostly all be expanded upon as well.

Does this mean Asmodan Paladins and some of Erastils vaguely chauvinistic traits will get retconned out?

Hmm.

I'm really hoping to see the Ancient Osiriani gods given some details here, along with other dead gods - Aroden, the Thassilonian ones... but mainly the Osiriani ones. Actually, just cut out Erastil and give them his page count :p .

I'm also really hoping for a couple of completely new deities.

The anicient Osiriani gods are gonig to be covered before this in Mummy's Mask and it's support books.

They already are, no? I know the Erastil article in Kingmaker was, though he is the deity of traditional families, strong community, hard work, and hunting and gathering, where modern ideas just dont apply or work. Not really chauvenist as practicle and wise when in game modern civilization and technology fail. So that aspect probably will jot (and shouldnt) change.

I believe that you can be a Cheliaxian or Hellknight paladin, but I think they said no for Asmodian paladins.

They already are, no? I know the Erastil article in Kingmaker was, though he is the deity of traditional families, strong community, hard work, and hunting and gathering, where modern ideas just dont apply or work. Not really chauvenist as practicle and wise when in game modern civilization and technology fail. So that aspect probably will jot (and shouldnt) change.

I believe that you can be a Cheliaxian or Hellknight paladin, but I think they said no for Asmodian paladins.

I meant in an official writeup. I know the nonsense of actual Asmodian Paladins has been addressed on the boards. I know the tradition and strong community part of Erastil is in the KM writeup, but so is

It's a little off putting to me that old deadeye seems to think that women should shut up and make a sandwich. I'd rather leave that to Asmodus since that seems to be Hell's schtick.

I seem to recall that the developers have already said in another thread on these forums that the above quote by XperimentalDM is no longer part of Erastil's faith.

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

They already are, no? I know the Erastil article in Kingmaker was, though he is the deity of traditional families, strong community, hard work, and hunting and gathering, where modern ideas just dont apply or work. Not really chauvenist as practicle and wise when in game modern civilization and technology fail. So that aspect probably will jot (and shouldnt) change.

I believe that you can be a Cheliaxian or Hellknight paladin, but I think they said no for Asmodian paladins.

I meant in an official writeup. I know the nonsense of actual Asmodian Paladins has been addressed on the boards. I know the tradition and strong community part of Erastil is in the KM writeup, but so is

"He believes the strength of a man’s will makes
him the center of a household, and while women can be
strong, they should defer to and support their husbands,
as their role is to look after the house and raise strong
children (consequently, there are few female priests in
his church). Independent-minded women, he believes,
can be disruptive to communities, and it is best to marry
them off quickly so their duties as wife and mother
command their attention."

It's a little off putting to me that old deadeye seems to think that women should shut up and make a sandwich. I'd rather leave that to Asmodus since that seems to be Hell's schtick.

This passage sparked intense controversy and ultimately many people expressed the view that chauvinism isn't something a Good deity should subscribe to. Of course, we have also folks here who bemoan the fact that the one deity that had the correct view on woman's role in society got that part of portfolio axed on demands of pinky hippo commies.

Thats what I was refering to, but my understanding was the entire article as well as parts of the AP where retconned out, and he correct Eristal focuses on strong traditional families, hard work, and survival of the community.

XperimentalDM wrote:

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

They already are, no? I know the Erastil article in Kingmaker was, though he is the deity of traditional families, strong community, hard work, and hunting and gathering, where modern ideas just dont apply or work. Not really chauvenist as practicle and wise when in game modern civilization and technology fail. So that aspect probably will jot (and shouldnt) change.

I believe that you can be a Cheliaxian or Hellknight paladin, but I think they said no for Asmodian paladins.

I meant in an official writeup. I know the nonsense of actual Asmodian Paladins has been addressed on the boards. I know the tradition and strong community part of Erastil is in the KM writeup, but so is

"He believes the strength of a man’s will makes
him the center of a household, and while women can be
strong, they should defer to and support their husbands,
as their role is to look after the house and raise strong
children (consequently, there are few female priests in
his church). Independent-minded women, he believes,
can be disruptive to communities, and it is best to marry
them off quickly so their duties as wife and mother
command their attention."

It's a little off putting to me that old deadeye seems to think that women should shut up and make a sandwich. I'd rather leave that to Asmodus since that seems to be Hell's schtick.

This passage sparked intense controversy and ultimately many people expressed the view that chauvinism isn't something a Good deity should subscribe to. Of course, we have also folks here who bemoan the fact that the one deity that had the correct view on woman's role in society got that part of portfolio axed on demands of pinky hippo commies.

I was disappointed at the retcon, because Erastil represented to me that even the Gods can be wrong in their attitudes.

Please note I do not agree with Erastil's views.

James Jacobs wrote:

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

Just to get this on the table: I not only want, but demand, that this include reprints/rewrites of SKR's writeups.

In fact, those writeups are going to form the backbone of the book. They'll mostly all be expanded upon as well.

Does this mean Asmodan Paladins and some of Erastils vaguely chauvinistic traits will get retconned out?

Yes. Those elements I regard in the same way as typos or errata—the were never really appropriate or intended for those deities in the first place.

One of the benefits I see to this book will be the polish, detail, and consistency that can only be obtained through several years of setting maturity.

As a person who has printed every deity article into a reference binder, I'm also very much looking forward to it combining information in addition to refining it.

XperimentalDM wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

Just to get this on the table: I not only want, but demand, that this include reprints/rewrites of SKR's writeups.

In fact, those writeups are going to form the backbone of the book. They'll mostly all be expanded upon as well.

Does this mean Asmodan Paladins and some of Erastils vaguely chauvinistic traits will get retconned out?

Yes. Those elements I regard in the same way as typos or errata—the were never really appropriate or intended for those deities in the first place.

Add me to those who are disappointed about this. While the Asmodean paladins never made sense (since I think that all divine spellcasters should be subject to the "one-step-away" rule for their alignment versus their god's), I disagree with the idea that someone is only as "good" as their worst quality - or that their worst quality is somehow the most definitive part of them.

Splinter churches, creative (re)interpretations of canon, clerics who focus on some part's of a god's portfolio/orthodoxy more than others (hence why only two domains) and others are all ways that a cleric of Erastil can still be in their god's good graces while ignoring the sexist aspects of his faith; the idea that Erastil can't be good-aligned while holding that view is, to me, a failure of imagination.

It's necessary, at this point, for me to state that I think social justice, equality, and feminism are all unequivocally good things. I just also like nuance in the game world - promoting issues of social justice in the context of the game (e.g. non-heteronormative characters) while avoiding the uncomfortable flipsides to these issues (e.g. good-aligned characters who do not believe in equality across all demographic spectra), strikes me as being a bit too simplistic, too idealized, for a world that wants to present itself as having depth. Depth means conflict, and while not all conflict requires social controversy, that's usually where the shades of grey lurk...and a lot of good role-playing can come out of shades of grey (so long as there aren't fifty of them *rimshot*).

And before anyone says so, yes, I know I can add all of these into the game manually; that's not the point I'm trying to make. The point is that I wish they were there to begin with.

Now, I recognize why they're not. Paizo has championed making people feel included/not offending people as being paramount, for reasons that are a mixture of ethics and marketability. Again, it must be stated that making people feel welcome and included is an unequivocally good thing. I'm just not sure that I agree with the premise that such inclusiveness necessitates scrubbing the controversial elements from the game world.

Rant off.

It's not just the fact that I feel that a good deity should not be misogynistic, although that is of itself enough of a reason to make the change as far as I'm concerned.

It's that Erastil, like many of Golarion's deities, has a MUCH longer history than what's in print. He's one of the deities from my homebrew game, and has been around in that game for decades as a good guy god of families, community, hunting, and the harvest. He was never intended to have even a small element of misogyny to him, and never did until that bit crept into the article.

Essentially, what you've seen was one designer's take on the deity that clashed against the original designer's take on the deity. When Sean sits down to write a deity article based on a deity I've invented, I give him a block of text for him to essentially riff off of, or just sit down and chat with him about it. I can certainly understand how adding this element to Erastil can make him more interesting in some regards, but in my opinion, it breaks him from his role as the good god of families. Abadar would have been a more appropriate deity to give this flaw to, I think, but don't take that to mean that we're going to do that!

In any event, I get it that some folks might prefer that version of Erastil.

I do not, so it's changing back to the original intent for the deity.

It's not just the fact that I feel that a good deity should not be misogynistic, although that is of itself enough of a reason to make the change as far as I'm concerned.

It's that Erastil, like many of Golarion's deities, has a MUCH longer history than what's in print. He's one of the deities from my homebrew game, and has been around in that game for decades as a good guy god of families, community, hunting, and the harvest. He was never intended to have even a small element of misogyny to him, and never did until that bit crept into the article.

Essentially, what you've seen was one designer's take on the deity that clashed against the original designer's take on the deity. When Sean sits down to write a deity article based on a deity I've invented, I give him a block of text for him to essentially riff off of, or just sit down and chat with him about it. I can certainly understand how adding this element to Erastil can make him more interesting in some regards, but in my opinion, it breaks him from his role as the good god of families. Abadar would have been a more appropriate deity to give this flaw to, I think, but don't take that to mean that we're going to do that!

In any event, I get it that some folks might prefer that version of Erastil.

I do not, so it's changing back to the original intent for the deity.

I apologize if my comment rubbed a nerve. I get what you are saying, now. I really was just trying to say that I like the idea that even the gods are not perfect.

In my view, one of the imperfections about Erastil's faith is that, obviously it strongly encourages people to stay at home, build a strong community, and a strong family. Which is all good and appropriate, but very counterintuitive to the actual premise of the game, going out, exploring, adventuring, etc. . .

I think that a lot of times, also, people forget or ignore that his faith and teaching are far more strict with males than females in most cases, (or what chauvinist actually means). He seems more about gender roles, specifically based around having children and teaching them to work for what they want, then men in the fields, women in the kitchen.