No. Paladins are LG and get their powers from deities within one step of that alignment. How many favorites Sean's trolling gets doesn't change the way paladins work in our setting, despite unfortunate elements that may have seen print in the past saying otherwise.
But only the Sacred Servant Paladin Archetype 'gets their powers' from a Deity (who must be within one step of LG).
For other Paladins, any relationship with a Deity isn't really any more significant (rules-wise) than for a Monk.So "Paladin of X Deity" (without invoking Sacred Servants) just isn't indicating a specific relationship on par to Clerics,
and AFAIK the Paladin of Asmodeus article never indicated that they are even WORSHIPPING Asmodeus in any way.
As we know, Paladins MAY work with Evil, and I don't see why Asmodeus would be excluded from that,
never mind that the article also never said the Paladins in question need to be fully aware of Asmodeus' role in the matter,
it was just discussing how Paladins may 'serve' Asmodeus, which may be thru intermediaries.
The article also explicitly said how the end-game of that relationship was the Paladins falling.
I'm not sure why Asmodeus would NOT enjoy manipulating Paladins to eventually fall while furthering his goals.
I don't have the article with me here to quote, but that was the gist of it as I understood it,
it seems like most of the reaction contrary to it was predicated on reading too much into the phrase "Paladin of Asmodeus",
rather than a sober assessment of what it described as actually going on.
I do hope that Paizo does a Blackguard PrC for fallen Paladins, Asmodeus-linked or not,
it's a totally different concept than Anti-Paladin, A-P is not any sort of 'replacement' for it,
but it seems a role that is just as relevant to Pathfinder as 3.5.
Creative Director
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm assuming this means no more nonsensical paladin/hellknight multiclasses? :D
Paladin hellknights have been and will continue to be a part of the game.
Most hellknights are lawful neutral. Lawful evil is the next most common alignment. Lawful good hellknights exist, but they're the least common.
The alignment isn't the issue to me. It is more the idea that a character who is supposed to be devoted to battling evil (to some degree at least) would decide to affiliate himself with hell in any way. While the Hellknights technically aren't evil, they sure are modeling themselves after something that is evil.
Hellknights are not affiliated with Hell. They're dedicated to killing Devils.
Sure, some Hellknights might be affiliated with Hell, but certainly not all.As a group they aren't 'modelling' themselves after Hell or Devils, they're 'modelled' after the Jistka Imperium.
Devils may have a wide range of abilities, including elemental resistances or melee abilities,
using or emulating some of those does not indicate allegiance or sympathy,
or else the Soviet Red Army would have been Nazi sympathizers for also using tanks in combat.
Paladin Hellknights can certainly be expected to be fully dedicated to fighting Evil.
I don't see why this is more problematic than a Sacred Servant of Abadar, or a Paladin that is part of a national military such as Qadira.
Paladins can explicitly work with Evil for one, so to say they may never be part of an organization unless it is 100% Paladin seems absurd.
Might that provoke more difficult situations re: the Paladin Code than being a warrior of a LG church? Sure.
But it doesn't mean it isn't a viable choice and path for Paladins to take.
Please, PLEASE, tell me that Razmir will be included in this book, and please let it be in a lot of detail. I really REALLY need that! I'll pay extra!
|
Creative Director
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Please, PLEASE, tell me that Razmir will be included in this book, and please let it be in a lot of detail. I really REALLY need that! I'll pay extra!
Wellllll...
Not sure why we spoiler that anymore, since it's probably the worst-kept secret of the Inner Sea region.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm pretty sure he was aware that Razmir isn't a God, but just wanted a more detailed treatment of him and his 'religion' anyways, since you could discuss their 'religion' in similar terms (friends/enemies, symbology, practices of the 'clergy', etc)
Though other chunks of the standardized detailed format would be pretty barren:
Relationship with other deities: None
Planar Allies: None
Herald: Nope
Myths: All of it
Well, given he is still a caster, he could still be capable of binding planar allies and even enslaving one in particular to be his herald. Would be pretty interesting to see that.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A "god" writeup of Razmir sounds like a good thing for a Razmiran sourcebook rather than a gods sourcebook.
Yep, that's what I thought you were talking about. See, when we first started these god articles, there was no Core Rulebook, nor was there a campaign setting book for Golarion, so the articles were the only place to get that info. I can't remember why we did it in paragraph form like that instead of a little sidebar, but that's how we did it for the first one, and we used that same structure for the later articles. For this book, we've already talked about pulling that info into a sidebar for each entry (plus I'm sure we'll have a full-page table listing all of that info for at least the major gods), so it won't be in that running text format any more. :)
As for your comment about the Relations With Other Religions section, that's exactly the sort of thing I meant by my comment about how other deities (and aspects of the setting) hadn't been detailed yet. But they've now been detailed, so... :)
Thanks for your answer. I have hoped that you have realised this, but as it was never changed I thought I mention it.
Concerning the relations part, am I correct to assume that this does not imply that the book will include write-ups about beings of god-like power, i.e. Horsemen, Empyreal lords, etc?
Whilst you did not say that you want further suggestions, I will still write them down. I hope you do not mind.
Would it be possible to have a better distinction between the general topics in the articles? It would be nice to have three general sections about a given deity: one about the deity itself, one about its church/religion, and one about general and/or common information concerning the deity. For example in the article on Pharasma, the part on the deity itself is really lacking (if I remember correctly) and thus, unless this was intended, it could be avoided.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I wish the individual priests were an archetype rather than prestige classes. Pathfinder made prestige classes inferior to regular classes. Few will ever choose a prestige class over a base class with an archetype. It only hurt more with prestige classes not getting favored class bonuses.
I miss the deity books like the Forgotten Realms had, where choosing to be a particular deity's priest meant having competitive power rather than being an inferior choice to the base class as it would be now. Prestige classes rarely even somewhat equal (usually they are far inferior) giving up favored class bonuses and the base abilities of a class with an archetype. Which makes them a very unattractive option for most players.
There was a posting on how to create 'non-generic clerics' some time back. I took it and created modifications to better fit the deities than the CORE cleric. A deity of Rogues would not favor plate and shield Clerics and I really think the skill list might get enhanced. Other than Domains, there is mechanically little to differentiate a Cleric of Asmodeus and Desna.
Might there be alternate abilities, etc for some Clerics? Optional, of course.
I wish the individual priests were an archetype rather than prestige classes. Pathfinder made prestige classes inferior to regular classes. Few will ever choose a prestige class over a base class with an archetype. It only hurt more with prestige classes not getting favored class bonuses.
I miss the deity books like the Forgotten Realms had, where choosing to be a particular deity's priest meant having competitive power rather than being an inferior choice to the base class as it would be now. Prestige classes rarely even somewhat equal (usually they are far inferior) giving up favored class bonuses and the base abilities of a class with an archetype. Which makes them a very unattractive option for most players.
Most players aren't optimizers. They don't care about the loss of the FCB, as minor as that is. Half the time, they don't even remember that thing :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In other words, JJ will "speak to the printer about it later."
From "1776" the musical:
HANCOCK: Gentlemen are there any objections to the Declaration being approved as it now stands?
JOHN: I have one, Mr. Hancock.
HANCOCK: You, Mr. Adams?
JOHN: Yes. Mr. Jefferson, it so happens the word is unalienable, not inalienable.
JEFFERSON: I'm sorry, Mr. Adams, inalienable is correct.
JOHN (his voice rising): I happen to be a Harvard graduate
JEFFERSON (his voice also rising): And I attended William and Mary --
HANCOCK (pounding the gavel): Gentlemen, please! Mr. Jefferson, will you yield to Mr. Adarns's request? (A pause)
JEFFERSON: No, sir, I will not.
JOHN: Oh, very well, I'll withdraw it.
FRANKLIN: Good for you, John!
JOHN (privately): I'll speak to the printer about it later.
I wish the individual priests were an archetype rather than prestige classes. Pathfinder made prestige classes inferior to regular classes. Few will ever choose a prestige class over a base class with an archetype. It only hurt more with prestige classes not getting favored class bonuses.
I don't know, I think it's more that they're not nearly as crazy/required as they were in 3.5, and that's causing a lot of people to think PrCs are a lot worse than they really are. I mean, if you take a standard 10 class levels in a Prc, and your first 10 are in a base class that's, what, 10 hit points or skill points you're missing out on by level 20? Really not a big deal.
PrCs in Pathfinder excite me. Most of them are very nicely designed, and have pretty fair trade-offs for the abilities they offer. My players and I love taking them, and there hasn't been a single AP we've run in PF so far, that hasn't ended up in at least one person taking a PrC. Sure, there are some bad ones (Tattood Mystic, I'm looking at you), but most are flavorful and introduce fun mechanics.
Announced! Cover image is a mockup, and will change prior to publication.
Well I still hope it's Sarenrae on the cover. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hope the cover art will be Cayden, Desna, Azmodeus, Norgorber, and Pharasma playing poker.
Concerning the relations part, am I correct to assume that this does not imply that the book will include write-ups about beings of god-like power, i.e. Horsemen, Empyreal lords, etc?
Well, my part of this book focuses on the 20 major deities (and some other material we haven't announced yet). I don't what the book is doing with the not-a-true-deity-but-can-grant-spells creatures, but given that each category of them has its own 64-page book for the Pathfinder RPG, I doubt this book will have extensive writeups for such beings (because space limitations for the book means we can't set aside 10 pages for each of those categories, for example).
If you're talking specifically about mentioning those creatures in the Relations section of the gods writeups, I think we can make sure to mention any relationships that are significant to the deity (frex, Urgathoa's writeup mentions daemons because her realm is in Abaddon, and I think Sarenrae's mentions the other empyreal lords because she used to be an angel).
Would it be possible to have a better distinction between the general topics in the articles? It would be nice to have three general sections about a given deity: one about the deity itself, one about its church/religion, and one about general and/or common information concerning the deity. For example in the article on Pharasma, the part on the deity itself is really lacking (if I remember correctly) and thus, unless this was intended, it could be avoided.
As the updates of those entries aren't finished yet, I'll talk to Wes (who's in charge of this project) and see what he thinks of that idea. :)
Well, my part of this book focuses on the 20 major deities (and some other material we haven't announced yet). I don't what the book is doing with the not-a-true-deity-but-can-grant-spells creatures, but given that each category of them has its own 64-page book for the Pathfinder RPG, I doubt this book will have extensive writeups for such beings (because space limitations for the book means we can't set aside 10 pages for each of those categories, for example).
Thanks for your answers.
In this case, I was talking about whether or not there will be writeups like the core beliefs series on very powerful outsiders in the book. It is a shame that there is not enough space for that, but it is understandable nonetheless. As these will be printed in the APs I am not too saddened about it. ;-)If you're talking specifically about mentioning those creatures in the Relations section of the gods writeups, I think we can make sure to mention any relationships that are significant to the deity (frex, Urgathoa's writeup mentions daemons because her realm is in Abaddon, and I think Sarenrae's mentions the other empyreal lords because she used to be an angel).
That you are going to mention all important relations is fantastic as it does really help to see how the deity acts and thus how it thinks.
As the updates of those entries aren't finished yet, I'll talk to Wes (who's in charge of this project) and see what he thinks of that idea. :)
Thanks, this is great to hear. Granted it might just be me but I do like neatly structured texts for the sake of clarification. Perhaps it is just a professional preference.
Generally, would it be possible to get more background history on the deities? Some of the articles seem to lack this more than others. For example, your article on Torag (AP 62) does not explain his history, but perhaps that is intended.
Well, given he is still a caster, he could still be capable of binding planar allies and even enslaving one in particular to be his herald. Would be pretty interesting to see that.
Well, I suppose that's true, though a bound planar being wouldn't be an ally so much as a servant or slave. That is one of the big differences between Planar Ally and Planar Binding. But I see your point.
All of this is moot however, as Sean aptly points out, Razmir would be better served as a feature article for a Razmir sourcebook, or better yet - a Razmir AP (one can only hope) someday.
One of my favorite books is from MWP. They did Holy Orders of the Stars that gives the history of the Dragonlance pantheon. One thing that I especially appreciated is that each god had something specific to him'her such as magic items, PRCs, relics. I hope that this book will do something similar.
Any chance Erik Mona can be tricked into believing he'll have to do stat-blocks for all the deities using the 3.0 rules for that? ;)
A "god" writeup of Razmir sounds like a good thing for a Razmiran sourcebook rather than a gods sourcebook.
Is a Razmiran book even going to be put out?
Please, PLEASE, tell me that Razmir will be included in this book, and please let it be in a lot of detail. I really REALLY need that! I'll pay extra!Wellllll...
** spoiler omitted **
Not sure why we spoiler that anymore, since it's probably the worst-kept secret of the Inner Sea region.
I know he is not technically a god, but he is still worshiped by many as a God. Everything that is out there for him seems to be very little and scattered across various books. I've been longing for more information on him as well as his worshipers, church, etc, and so I was hoping he'd be included in this book. Especially with this excerpt from his Pathfinder Wiki page;
"While he has no divine abilities, his incredible arcane power is enough proof of his godhood to many people. With his magic allowing him to reduce the city of Melcat to ash overnight, few can even question his immense power."
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
A "god" writeup of Razmir sounds like a good thing for a Razmiran sourcebook rather than a gods sourcebook.Is a Razmiran book even going to be put out?I will publish it as soon as Jason Bulmahn writes it.
Meanwhile, in the other part of the building...
Wes: Hey Jason, when are you going to write the Razmiran book?
Jason: Oh, I'll get to that once Erik writes the one about Nex.
Wes: Hey Jason, when are you going to write the Razmiran book?
Jason: Oh, I'll get to that once Erik writes the one about Nex.I would do unseemly things for either of those books...
Unseemly, I say!
I might even eat salad with the wrong fork!
I'll do the same!
Any chance Erik Mona can be tricked into believing he'll have to do stat-blocks for all the deities using the 3.0 rules for that? ;)HAHAHAHA NONE.
Aww, that's no fun.
|
I will publish it as soon as Jason Bulmahn writes it.Meanwhile, in the other part of the building...
Wes: Hey Jason, when are you going to write the Razmiran book?
Jason: Oh, I'll get to that once Erik writes the one about Nex.
Bwhahahahahahahahahahahaha.
After having just listened to the Know Direction YOU Are the publisher from PazioCon...yeah, probably exactly that. Well played Gorbacz, well played!
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What I'm hoping to see included.
1. Boons and Obediences
2. Holy symbols. Are there differences between higher and lower ranking officials? What about which aspect you worship more. For example are there distinct markings that would show you worship the death aspect of Pharasma vs. the Birth aspect?
3. Titles. What are the named titles for each Dieties clergy. Are there various ones based on the specific aspect of that God that they worship.
Will the upcoming Faiths and Philosophies book (Companion line) be helpful for those needing information on Razmir and his "faith"? I would think - between that and Inner Sea Magic (Campaign Setting line) - that there should be enough information.
But...will thamir gixx be getting some love in this work?
|
|
What I'm hoping to see included.
1. Boons and Obediences
2. Holy symbols. Are there differences between higher and lower ranking officials? What about which aspect you worship more. For example are there distinct markings that would show you worship the death aspect of Pharasma vs. the Birth aspect?
3. Titles. What are the named titles for each Dieties clergy. Are there various ones based on the specific aspect of that God that they worship.
I actually started a thread about #3 back when I created my first cleric character for PFS. I wasn't sure how she should refer to herself as a level 1 adventuring cleric of Sarenrae.
Speaking of holy symbols, I recently came across a reference to negative channeling being unholy, not holy. So would a neutral cleric of a neutral god who chose negative channeling need an unholy symbol instead of a holy symbol? Green Beard the Pirate (CN half orc cleric of Besmara) really wants to know!
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hope the cover art will be Cayden, Desna, Azmodeus, Norgorber, and Pharasma playing poker.
Cayden has so much fun losing, he never wins but never bets big either. Desna has a poker-face so hard that it hurts ther other gods' eyes trying to crack it. Norborger has to have his cards pried out of his hands for the reveal. Asmodeus cheats hard and always looks like he'll win. But, Pharasma always wins, effortlessly.
I'm still upset that Razmir will only have a small part in this book, if even that. He may not BE a true god but he is BELIEVED TO BE a god by many, and therefore is a "god" of the Inner Sea, and therefore, in my opinion, should be included in this book in detail.
Everything on Razmir is spread out throughout multiple books and even if you compiled it all, it's not nearly as much as the other gods. It would just be nice to finally have a book that presents a lot of detailed information on him, his followers, and his church. Just my 2cp.
In Golarion, mere belief doesn't make you a god.
In Golarion, mere belief doesn't make you a god.
No it does not. But if he is gonna be listed in the Inner Sea World Guide in the dieties section, he should be in this book.
In Golarion, mere belief doesn't make you a god.No it does not. But if he is gonna be listed in the Inner Sea World Guide in the dieties section, he should be in this book.
Well, first, Razmir isn't listed in the main deities section, he's listed in the "Fallen, False, and Forgotten" section - for that reason alone I'd no more expect Razmir in this book than I would a section for the Peacock Spirit.
Second, the book isn't called Inner Sea Religions it's called Inner Sea GODS. Just because someone has a religion built around them doesn't mean they deserve an detailed entry in this book. If you have a section for Razmir (who isn't even as powerful as a demigod) where do you stop? Where do you draw the line? Should we expect every Empyreal Lord, Archdevil, Demon Lord, Great Old One, and Horseman to also get a detailed entry? Obviously not.
Third, page count is tight. If they do have a few extra pages to detail beings outside the core 20 deities, those pages would be better spent on detailing other actual gods (such as Droskar, Zyphus, Apsu, etc.) rather than some pretender squatting on the shores of Lake Encarthan.