And yeah, 6 players IS a big deal... which I think is a certain weakness in the design of what is essentialy as social game. Pathfinder DOES begin to crumble when a party has a slightly different party size. But what are you to do if you have 6 friends who want to play? not everyone can afford the time to split the groups, and many wouldn't even want to. This is a serious issue.
While I'll admit that a party of six got significantly better synergies than a party of four - what's stopping you from giving the same kind of synergies to the opposition?
Instead of increasing the number of orc raiders by 50%, add some bards and/or clerics to the band.
Instead of adding another +1 template onto the solo boss, give him a lieutenant for buffing, battlefield control, or the like.
If action economy or effect synergy is what makes the party strong, use it right back at them.
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And yeah, 6 players IS a big deal... which I think is a certain weakness in the design of what is essentialy as social game. Pathfinder DOES begin to crumble when a party has a slightly different party size. But what are you to do if you have 6 friends who want to play? not everyone can afford the time to split the groups, and many wouldn't even want to. This is a serious issue.While I'll admit that a party of six got significantly better synergies than a party of four - what's stopping you from giving the same kind of synergies to the opposition?
Instead of increasing the number of orc raiders by 50%, add some bards and/or clerics to the band.
Instead of adding another +1 template onto the solo boss, give him a lieutenant for buffing, battlefield control, or the like.
If action economy or effect synergy is what makes the party strong, use it right back at them.
My intention was that it's very hard and time consuming to convert a Pathfinder game designed for 4 players into a game designed for more (or less) players. If just increasing number of enemies by 50% would have worked, or something similarly simple, that would have been a major strength of the game. However, a seasoned GM with a lot of time is required to change the game enough to make it work for 6 players. And that's a rather serious problem for a game that's designed around having your friends come over for some fun, because many groups of friends include more (or less) than 5 members.
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I think the issue here is that you're expecting a 50% increase from adding two players, when in reality, it can be a much larger difference. It depends on class, the player's experience, build... and the higher the level everyone is, the harder things get. So I think assuming a 50% increase is the issue. Instead you really have to gauge it with the ability of the players.
Also, my escalating minions works pretty well. It never feels like a slog, more like, well, an escalating battle. Mind you, I don't have them keep swarming until they are all dead. I do have them retreat for better positioning and regrouping.
Honestly, I think five players changes the dynamic. That is not a popular opinion among developers and professional designers, but my actual play experience points to it. That's 20% more actions on the player side.
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25%.
Yes, 25%.
;-D
Assuming all players contribute equally, which isn't always the case. At the risk of starting a martial/caster disparity thread, when the fifth player is a caster, spells really do change things around.
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Assuming all players contribute equally, which isn't always the case. At the risk of starting a martial/caster disparity thread, when the fifth player is a caster, spells really do change things around.
It's true that not all players contribute equally. However, my experience is that a fifth player always makes a difference (unless they're unconscious, paralyzed, and/or the player is absent and no one is running their PC).
I can't show that to you mathematically. At best, I can say they contribute 25% more effort and that might only consist of healing and buffing the other players. Nevertheless, the reason that I posted is because I believe that makes a difference.
And I am prepared for salaried developers and everybody else to disagree with me. And I'm saying that light-heartedly and in the spirit of fun, but I really mean it. We can all agree to disagree.
However, this is a broad sweeping statement, not a hard fast rule. When I run an AP with 5 players (and I do that regularly) I bump up ALMOST every encounter due to that fifth player. There are always a couple encounters I look at and say to myself, "No, don't bump that one up. That one can handle five players just fine."
Two weeks ago I looked at three chimera and one of them had an advanced template, and I said—"no changes necessary".
Fortunately I am an empowered GM and I can do that. Paizo grants me blanket permission to do that in my home game. Astonishingly, they grant that same license to EVERYONE. :D
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magnuskn, have you considered giving all of the enemies in the AP guns and armor spikes?
Assuming all players contribute equally, which isn't always the case. At the risk of starting a martial/caster disparity thread, when the fifth player is a caster, spells really do change things around.It's true that not all players contribute equally. However, my experience is that a fifth player always makes a difference (unless they're unconscious, paralyzed, and/or the player is absent and no one is running their PC).
I can't show that to you mathematically. At best, I can say they contribute 25% more effort and that might only consist of healing and buffing the other players. Nevertheless, the reason that I posted is because I believe that makes a difference.
And I am prepared for salaried developers and everybody else to disagree with me. And I'm saying that light-heartedly and in the spirit of fun, but I really mean it. We can all agree to disagree.
However, this is a broad sweeping statement, not a hard fast rule. When I run an AP with 5 players (and I do that regularly) I bump up ALMOST every encounter due to that fifth player. There are always a couple encounters I look at and say to myself, "No, don't bump that one up. That one can handle five players just fine."
Two weeks ago I looked at three chimera and one of them had an advanced template, and I said—"no changes necessary".
Fortunately I am an empowered GM and I can do that. Paizo grants me blanket permission to do that in my home game. Astonishingly, they grant that same license to EVERYONE. :D
Actually, I agree with you that a fifth person does make a difference. I just think that it can't really be quantified simply by a percentage like 25%.
And vestigal arms holding bastard swords?
Oversized bastard swords? *ducks for cover*
Actually, I agree with you that a fifth person does make a difference. I just think that it can't really be quantified simply by a percentage like 25%.
It really depends on who that 5th person is.
Our current CoT group (Ftr Pal Rog Sor Wiz), when complete, is having less difficulty with bumped up encounters than the same group minus one player has with standard encounters.
magnuskn, have you considered giving all of the enemies in the AP guns and armor spikes?
That would only lead to the party having all the guns and armor spikes afterwards.
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magnuskn, have you considered giving all of the enemies in the AP guns and armor spikes?That would only lead to the party having all the guns and armor spikes afterwards.
Not if those weapons explode in daylight!
:D
along with a bestiary of several monsters (including the final demon lords to be presented during the campaign!)
Does this mean there will be an extra bestiary for demon lords or does that mean there will be less monsters and more demon lords? or does that mean we get more than 4 monsters in this bestiary?
magnuskn, have you considered giving all of the enemies in the AP guns and armor spikes?That would only lead to the party having all the guns and armor spikes afterwards.Not if those weapons explode in daylight!
:D
Is there even real "daylight" in the Worldwound and the Abyss? :p
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The enemy's weapons exploding when they die? I'm sure I've seen that in a video game recently. "You'll take my heavy plasma from my cold dead hands"
I can tell you from running multiple AP's, group size is a huge factor in how encounters go. More than one primary caster or full BAB class and fights can go very quick. With 6 in Kingmaker and 5 in Way of the Wicked I've needed to upgrade or combine encounters to make them a challenge. Technically, if you let the PC's lag behind a bit it might help. As you are dividing the XP between 5 or 6 instead of 4 this will happen naturally. As long as you don't add extra stuff of course.
Normally encounters get modified (the advanced template is really handy for this as it can be done on the fly). And even a group with 5 or 6 can have a blind spot. Tweaking an encounter to attack that spot can spice things up.
Creative Director
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along with a bestiary of several monsters (including the final demon lords to be presented during the campaign!)Does this mean there will be an extra bestiary for demon lords or does that mean there will be less monsters and more demon lords? or does that mean we get more than 4 monsters in this bestiary?
There are 4 monsters in this volume's bestiary, one of which is a demon lord.
Sounds like this issue is going to be ridiculously awesome! The PCs get to fight
Cannot wait for this one
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What I fail to see is how them taking good skills makes them so much better than "average" players. I imagine the average RPG player is an above-average intelligent person and thus, when presented with a host of choices, will try to take an effective one most of the time (outside of RP choices, of course). Perception is the most important skill in the game, every AP module published will teach you that. Diplomacy is the second most important skill in the game, both for its versatility in finding local information and because Paizo seems to hate Intimidate when having people interact with their NPC's (see the first module of Wrath of the Righteous for a good example of that).
Making sound choices when choosing your skills and feats doesn't make you a power gamer. I don't imagine that Paizo thinks that their average gamers blindly flick through the feat section and choose their feats by just stabbing their fingers at a random...
I agree with 100%, but the average gamer doesn't choose that efficiently in my experience. I've played for a very long time, and DM'ed many high level games (level 20+) and find that such optimised choices are not as common as you think. I know I run into issues with a few core players in my group because of efficient character design. In fact I often choose suboptimal choices purely to keep in line with the power of the other players so we all enjoy the game, or point out other options for them to consider for their own character.
I would also agree with Mr Groves. Running games I find the difficulty at higher levels arises entirely from numbers. The only solution that seems to work for me is to alter ad-hoc, increase HP, attack bonuses, saves by a few points. Throw in some minions of 1 lower CR. My favourite is new arrivals, once PC's get on top unless they've been particularly careful I draw other monsters in to support. It means no room-to-room slog in a dungeon and feels a little more dynamic.
All good points. I'm very interested to see what Paizo has in store for us which can deal with mythic highest level characters.
It's weird that the cover art for the next volume has appeared on Facebook while we haven't gotten an update for this volume yet.
Damn Facebook spoilers! ;)
You'll see it by the end of the week. ;)
Link? You mean the final art? Dang, I really want to see the art for THIS one.
Yeah if you go on Pathfinder Art page on Facebook you can see it.
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Product image updated!
Product image updated!
Looks like Areelu Vorlesh in the foreground with Deskari in back.
Wow that cover is amazing!! Areelu is smokin' and Deskari looks crazy cool!!
Can't wait for this one!!
...does Areelu have a quasit familiar wearing spiky metal armor?
Some of my favorite cover art ever :D
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Creative Director
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Awesome cover art, but I kind of have to wonder how it came to be decided that Deskari is not going to be the big character in front... maybe they wanted to show the iconics fighting him? Or maybe it's that he's not really a humanoid?
It's mostly because Deskari's shape would end up covering up most of the artwork in the background. Pathfinder covers work best with human-shaped figures.
Also...
Awesome cover art, but I kind of have to wonder how it came to be decided that Deskari is not going to be the big character in front... maybe they wanted to show the iconics fighting him? Or maybe it's that he's not really a humanoid?It's mostly because Deskari's shape would end up covering up most of the artwork in the background. Pathfinder covers work best with human-shaped figures.
Also...
** spoiler omitted **
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It's mostly because Deskari's shape would end up covering up most of the artwork in the background. Pathfinder covers work best with human-shaped figures.
Also...
** spoiler omitted **
That is one awesome piece of art. I really hope Areelu gets a mini based on that artwork. Well done mr Reynolds. Now mr Jacobs
Seeing that locust-demon lord on the cover makes me pretty sure the Apocalypse Locust will be somewhere in the story!
Hell we'll go after Deskari! REVENGE FOR SARKORIS!
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It's like Seoni suddenly exploded into a succubus.
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It's like Seoni suddenly exploded into a succubus.
Thank you! I wondered if I was the only one who immediately thought 'Seoni's evil brunette identical twin a la Bewitched and I Dream of Jeannie.' Same dress, same tattoos, same anatomy not found in nature....
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It's like Seoni suddenly exploded into a succubus.
Eh...kinda a cross between Seoni and Ameiko..somthing about the hair and face shape.
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I admittedly was mostly responding to the clothes and tattoos.
Just realized it says that the bestiary will include the final demon lords to be featured in this AP..meaning there's more than one!!! Is this a typo?
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We'll be talking SPECIFICALLY about the topic of what it means to world canon in the last WotR I suspect, since it's going to have some significant changes on the world no matter what the PC's level of success is.
But yes. Basically...it's only canon to YOUR would once your group plays the adventure. No other adventure is assumed to have occurred in Golarion yet, which means that someone who comes to Golarion today has only to buy the Inner Sea World Guide to be ready to go with pretty much ANY of our other products. That new customer doesn't have to read through 6 years of books to get caught up. And perhaps more importantly for us developers... neither do new freelancers.
Does that include Society adventures? I kinda got the impression that PFS had an ongoing storyline from Season 0 right up to the current season?