Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Campaign (OGL)

Optional systems usually aren't a Player focused option. It seems like this is more a GMG 2 with some side advice to players for me.

Optional systems usually aren't a Player focused option. It seems like this is more a GMG 2 with some side advice to players for me.

- Innovative new story feats that tie your character’s background and experiences into the game, giving players goals to accomplish for even greater rewards
- A complete system for tracking what your character does between adventures, from opening a tavern to crafting a powerful magic item.
- A number of systems to add expand Pathfinder play, including fame, honor, relationships, and more (all for the PC).
- Rules for building and maintaining a kingdom, from a small town to a mighty nation (focused on PCs yet again).

This is an APG 2 disguised as the GMG 2.

Again, won't know more till this is out but for me this isn't a DM aid, it's just another player book.

Hi Auxmalous,

I can only speak directly for 33,600 words of the book, but that chapter is a GM aid.

Actually, I can speak for the outline and purpose of the rest of the book, and what I can tell you is that you are creating a false dichotomy between GM aid and player stuff. The PCs, after all, are supposed to be part of the campaign world. The fact is that in many campaigns... they aren't. They're just these sort of roving free-riding heroes that float around and nothing happens when they're not on screen in the middle of "the adventure."

This book is all about filling in the rest of the screen. What are PCs doing when it's not "the adventure"? What is the rest of the world doing when the PCs aren't there?

You could, of course, only use these subsystems to deal with PC actions, if that were your preference as a GM. Alternatively, you could stat up the entire world and have players interact with the defined system you've created. You could also land anywhere in between.

Without giving anything away, this book is miles away from an APG2 and right next door to the GMG2. You're welcome to your preconceptions if you like, but I'd advise you to wait for more information before passing judgment.

What are PCs doing when it's not "the adventure"?

Ale.

What is the rest of the world doing when the PCs aren't there?

Making Ale.

Did we really need a 256 page book for this?

Whose idea was it to have the story feats, anyways? I want to thank them next year at PaizoCon.

Actually, I can speak for the outline and purpose of the rest of the book, and what I can tell you is that you are creating a false dichotomy between GM aid and player stuff. The PCs, after all, are supposed to be part of the campaign world. The fact is that in many campaigns... they aren't. They're just these sort of roving free-riding heroes that float around and nothing happens when they're not on screen in the middle of "the adventure."

No, I am not creating a false dichotomy between GM aid and player stuff.

I know you need to jump in to pitch or defend product and your work, and that's fine - but don't try to present this as something I am trying to construct out of a figment of my imagination. This wasn't an attack upon you or any of the contributors of this book, I am just making an observation based on facts presented and the direction that Paizo decided to go with on this product (targeting both DMs and players).

There is campaign design material and there is running campaign support material and rules (as they concern the PCs and world as a whole), and based on the information provided this looks like a whole lot of the latter and only focusing on the PC part (not the world outside of the PCs).

Campaigns actually "do exist" beyond the players - as in starting up a new one with no one having actually played in said campaign?
You know - when a DM is creating (or modifying) the world the players are going to play in. Designing countries/empires, faiths, economies, cause and effect of magic on the world, etc - how things may work in a low magic world, or heck - even a low combat/heavy rpg campaign? Or any number of things that could go into a campaign at day 0/inception up untill game day and after. You know - some of the things an Ultimate Campaign-style of book should tackle?

These would be options and design considerations for the DM, not extended collection of down-time player abilities and class features that didn't fit in the last "ultimate PC" book.

This doesn't look like a DM toolkit - but in any case I will "wait and see" as I stated two times so far in this thread. Not expecting much but a bunch of expanded player-based campaign rules and abilities for players though.

Thanks for your attempt at clarification Jason.

Innovative new story feats that tie your character’s background and experiences into the game, giving players goals to accomplish for even greater rewards.

When I read this, I wonder how it works:

or if you accomplish Goal Y you now Qualify for Feat 2 which gives you ability Z.

Any details you can share at this point in development?

You know - when a DM is creating (or modifying) the world the players are going to play in. Designing countries/empires, faiths, economies, cause and effect of magic on the world, etc - how things may work in a low magic world, or heck - even a low combat/heavy rpg campaign? Or any number of things that could go into a campaign at day 0/inception up untill game day and after. You know - some of the things an Ultimate Campaign-style of book should tackle?

All that was already tackled in Game Mastery Guide.

Auxmaulous wrote:

You know - when a DM is creating (or modifying) the world the players are going to play in. Designing countries/empires, faiths, economies, cause and effect of magic on the world, etc - how things may work in a low magic world, or heck - even a low combat/heavy rpg campaign? Or any number of things that could go into a campaign at day 0/inception up untill game day and after. You know - some of the things an Ultimate Campaign-style of book should tackle?

All that was already tackled in Game Mastery Guide.

It covered a few of the issues but yes, that was a nice 29 page chapter in that book.

So, I'm definitely interested. This goes on my list.

One question, though (not that it will affect my getting it,I'm just curious). While it looks like it includes all the various subsystems you've used so far, I don't see a refence to the caravan rules. Will you be updatig and including those as well?

Not every subsystem we've tried out in the Adventure Path is going into this. The caravan rules won't be here, for example. We won't have the additional ship combat stuff or fleet battles from Skull & Shackles in there too, I don't think...

Again, won't know more till this is out but for me this isn't a DM aid, it's just another player book.

A significant amount of this book's contents first appeared in various Adventure Paths, where we needed rules for GMs to run unusual adventures. Adventures revolving around things like kingdom building, honor, mass combat, and the like that the core rules didn't cover all that well.

There's no reason to suspect that the transition of these GM tools from the Adventure Paths will somehow become only player tools once they're between hard covers.

Again, won't know more till this is out but for me this isn't a DM aid, it's just another player book.

Roleplaying games are about players, you know: Bestiary - a catalogue of PC opponents, GM Guide - a toolbook for enhancing player experience.

So what's your point? What kind of a book would be interesting to you?

Regards,
Ruemere

In my experience as a GM is that the PCs are as much the GM's responsibility as they are the Player's. The PCs cannot be cool if the GM does not allow them the opportunities to be so. I believe that this is what the book is largely about, giving the PCs all of the opportunities to feel like they are heroes, or just a sense of accomplishment outside of raiding monsters and stealing their loot. ^_^

In my experience of DMing games I found that the campaign is much better when the player has more choices and anything that makes the player feel more in tune with the character the richer the campaign and story. Also any tool the player has your also as the DM is able to tap into. Any book can be a gm's aid if use right. Just got to be creative. :)

Frankly, if you're GMing a homebrew? Character backgrounds can help develop the setting as much as anything you come up with on your own (depending on the level of detail in the backgrounds). Also, as a GM, I find that I need to have the Player books on reference anyway for my players' convenience. All books are GM-Books. a better distinction is "non-player" book. But even then. this book seems more slanted towards GMs than players.

Looking forward to this one. Great looking cover as well!!

I'd love to see a preview of Story feats.

As I understand Lisa's most recent history post, I think that the spring 'slot' is the hardest to come up with quality books for after the first few givens.

This is an intriuging book and I'm looking forward to seeing how it finally comes out. The Game Master Guide really helped me learn Pathfinder, so the bar is high.

We may need a Midgard verson of the Quests and Campaigns book to supplement it, too. :)

Shiny idea!

This book does sound like a must-have fore me. Looking forward to it.

If I didn't already have all the APs and didn't already modify the subsystems to be a perfect fit for my group and I and already integrate them into our setting, I would be all over this book.

Really, much of it is the 'book of subsystems'. This is something that D&D needed decades ago, and I'm glad we're finally seeing it now.

Looking forward to this! I for one do not run the APs, but I would love a compendium of the optional GM rules introduced in them.

Out of all the books ever released thus far, this is one I've got the highest hopes for.

Mixed feelings of hope and dread, I really wish they would drop the "Ulitimate" from the title of their suplement book is seems to lead to more disapointment. A good product dont need to call itself Ultimate anything the peaple that by it will simply know.

I'd love to see a preview of Story feats.

They probably started out as Achievement feats. Here's to hoping they have improved since then.

I do find it fairly strange that this book will have "tons of player options" in it while at the same time seeming to be a book for GMs to get heavy use out of for GM-specific stuff. Perhaps it's the name that gives that perception.

To a certain extent, the same thing happened with Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat. The majority was non-GM specific, but there were parts mixed here and there that were (designing a new spell for your campaign, basic rules for setting the technological level). Sure, those can be used by players, but at the same time they seemed more oriented to the GM.

Maybe it's just the name, kind of like how some people for whatever reason thought Ultimate Combat was going to be Ultimate Not-Magic.

Wait and see is a-okay. Because it could turn into a purchase and word of mouth recommendation to friends.

Let's not burn bridges. Caution and concern are not crimes. But you can aggravate people into not even taking a look.

Auxmaulous, I understand what you are going for. There were some good things in the GMG for what you were mentioning, though I think Paizo is cautiously wary about having options that are solely for NPCs, because it becomes an issue of, "Why can he do it, but I can't?" They want the PCs to be the special ones, rather than the NPCs.

As for the title, it occurs to me that this is called Ultimate Campaign because many of these rules were a basis or jumping point for many of the APs. Many of these rules were created simply because, in order to be able to craft the Adventure Path, they needed to come up with these rules. In my interpretation, a mechanic can be a starting point for a new campaign and that's what they started with. The next step is to add detail to an existing Campaign, which would be the other, more Player-centric options that GMs could offer to his/her Players.

I guess it is just a matter of perspective. I guess that your own desires filled you with a preconception that lead you to be disappointed with what was being offered.

I, for one, would love to see the book that you were hoping for, but I am just as happy to see this one!

Waiting and being cautious is probably wise. At least the pdf option will be less of a gamble than plopping $40+ on this.

I don't understand this discussion. In my eyes, the GM is a player, too.

I was looking for a book that was a true campaign set-up book (to restate yet again), you know - details or information about setting up a game or campaign world that didn't directly interact or rely on PC interaction/decision?

That's cool, but the piece that you're overlooking is that the book was never billed as what you're seeking. It was billed from the beginning in the teasers at Paizocon & GenCon as a book to flesh out campaign details -- things like downtime between adventures, running a business, etc.

It's fine if that's not what you want, but it's not really fair to ding contributors for not fulfilling your dream GM book when that wasn't the assignment they were given.

I can appreciate your issue with the title "Ultimate Campaign". I didn't find Ultimate Combat to be everything I had hoped. I'm not getting hung up on naming conventions, though.

Well regardless of the quality of the content of the book, this is in my eyes far and away the coolest looking cover page of any Paizo product thus far. I know no poster prints have been sold of any past cover, but one can dream that an exception might be made! I'd love to put a framed copy of this up on my wall.

I removed a post and a bunch of replies. Name-calling is unacceptable.

I'll admit. I am concerned. Particularly about the kingdom building rules.

The rules presented in kingmaker were horribly broken and open to abuse by players. I sincerely hope this has been addressed. As it was my players and decided to just throw the rules out the window and run kingmaker a lot more free form. The rules in my opinion and in the opinion of a few others on this forum did not need a few minor tweaks but rather some major changes.

Has this been addressed?

I'll admit. I am concerned. Particularly about the kingdom building rules.

The rules presented in kingmaker were horribly broken and open to abuse by players. I sincerely hope this has been addressed. As it was my players and decided to just throw the rules out the window and run kingmaker a lot more free form. The rules in my opinion and in the opinion of a few others on this forum did not need a few minor tweaks but rather some major changes.

Has this been addressed?

No Idea if it's been addressed or not, but the wonderful thing about this game is that the optional rules are optional, and if you don't like the rules as given you can house rule them or discard them. I'll be grabbing this book even though I know I won't be using more than half the rules in it. Even if I don't use the rules, having the rules there helps me come up with my own optional systems.

So, I hope they've updated and fixed some of the issues with the rules, but even if they haven't I'll but the book (despite owning Kingmaker) anyway, for some of the newer stuff in it.

Snow Crash wrote:

I'll admit. I am concerned. Particularly about the kingdom building rules.

The rules presented in kingmaker were horribly broken and open to abuse by players. I sincerely hope this has been addressed. As it was my players and decided to just throw the rules out the window and run kingmaker a lot more free form. The rules in my opinion and in the opinion of a few others on this forum did not need a few minor tweaks but rather some major changes.

Has this been addressed?

No Idea if it's been addressed or not, but the wonderful thing about this game is that the optional rules are optional, and if you don't like the rules as given you can house rule them or discard them. I'll be grabbing this book even though I know I won't be using more than half the rules in it. Even if I don't use the rules, having the rules there helps me come up with my own optional systems.

Yep. I already know some rules mentioned in the product blurb are teh kind of thing I won't be using(rules for downtime for example, which is something most of us would rather actually play out), but even the stuff that doesn't get used can be useful when cobbling together your own stuff for your campaign.

Hoping for alternate rules for magic gear-less/light PCs that could be used to get them through a standard AP as written. If they can enable "gearless" PCs to work fine alongside traditionally geared PCs, even better.

The problem with optional rules is that they are shiny and new and everyone wants to use them.

It's not until after you've played with them for a while that you start to find the flaws in them. By then it's too late. If I spend money on a product, I expect the product to be polished. Especially when the rules in question re pretty much essential. Ie kingdoms building rules in kingmaker. I really felt they'd just been thrown together. My players and I felt like we were play testing them. Unfortunately in our opinion they were too broken for a couple of house rules to fix. They needed a complete rewrite. And that in itself would then need to be tested. Not something you want to do in the middle of a campaign.

The problem with optional rules is that they are shiny and new and everyone wants to use them.

It's not until after you've played with them for a while that you start to find the flaws in them. By then it's too late. If I spend money on a product, I expect the product to be polished. Especially when the rules in question re pretty much essential. Ie kingdoms building rules in kingmaker. I really felt they'd just been thrown together. My players and I felt like we were play testing them. Unfortunately in our opinion they were too broken for a couple of house rules to fix. They needed a complete rewrite. And that in itself would then need to be tested. Not something you want to do in the middle of a campaign.

Then wait and see how it goes. It's not like the book won't be disected, examined, praised and cursed on these boards. If you don't mind waiting that should be all the information you'll need for an informed purchase.

*edit* As for me, I'm picking it up. Whether I use all, some, or none of it I'm sure it will be a good read. If I don't use any major part of it I'll just canibalize bits of it and take inspiration from it for my own in-place homebrew systems.

Lots of discussion here, but nobody's brought up what I see as the biggest dilemma...

What do we call it?!

As for the kingdom-building rules, some things were changed a little, some were changed a lot, some things stayed the same. Some things will change further during development. Hopefully the final result is something that pleases most!

Lots of discussion here, but nobody's brought up what I see as the biggest dilemma...

What do we call it?!

UCa (in contrast to UC, or UCo, as it may be called in the future).

I'll call it "Ultimate Campaign".

The problem with optional rules is that they are shiny and new and everyone wants to use them.

No I don't.