How many monsters are going to be in it's Bestairy?
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ooooo... I hope it's Mhar.
So there will be 8 monsters in all with some of them more then likely being the missing Lamia-kin that are not in any of the Bestairies.
Creative Director
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[Expounding on topic started in the Bestiary 3 thread] I found my copy of Spires of Xin-Xhalast with my hand-written notes in it. Tactical descriptions of the kuchrimas describe them using Shield and True Strike and Greg wrote in one of the RotRL threads that they should've had Feather Fall at will and Shield and True Strike each once per day as SLAs.
Further, it seems clear (from Mr. Vaughn's comments on said threads) that the lamia harridans were meant to have charming SLAs and the wisdom-draining capabilities of their lesser lamia kindred.
In particular, Mary Yamamoto complained at length about the latter and we don't want a repeat of that do we?
I've scoured all of the Runelords messagebaords for feedback, and have been using the consolidated feedback to advise my development of this book. Among those copious notes are notes to decide which way to go with the kuchrimas—give them a few spell-like abilities, or keep them without spell-like abilities (and scrub all references in tactics to them using them).
I do quite like the idea of keeping them as the ONE type of lamia that doesn't have spell-like abilities, cementing their role in lamia society as the "thug." We'll see how it ends up in the end though!
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Creative Director
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So there will be 8 monsters in all with some of them more then likely being the missing Lamia-kin that are not in any of the Bestairies.
At current count, yes, there are eight monsters. That can still adjust slightly as the book continues through development, although I think that such an adjustment would be VERY unlikely.
He'd be above CR 25, and as a result I'm not quite ready to stat him up. Yet.
I suppose thanks are in order, then, for not stringing me along.
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Creative Director
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Could we get another resident of Leng, instead? Though I would love to see Mhar in print!ooooo... I hope it's Mhar.Nope.
As revealed in Pathfinder #46, Mhar is a Great Old One. He'd be above CR 25, and as a result I'm not quite ready to stat him up. Yet.
There's some critters that are Leng-friendly in Bestairy 3, in fact. Zoogs and vooniths and moonbeasts!
Not to mention Leng references in the Dragon Empires Gazetteer.
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Mary Yamamoto was my RotRL forum hero when I was first planning to Gm the AP.
Don't even get me started. If everything was as overthought as she wanted no one would be able to publish because the books would be 400 pagers per chapter.
Some things just require DM fiat people.
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Creative Director
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Mary Yamamoto was my RotRL forum hero when I was first planning to Gm the AP.Don't even get me started. If everything was as overthought as she wanted no one would be able to publish because the books would be 400 pagers per chapter.
Some things just require DM fiat people.
If I remember correctly, Mary ran games for a single player, which is NOT what we expect for an Adventure Path (we assume four players and a GM). That she was able to run the APs anyway is pretty cool, though, and a lot of her observations were really really keen and helpful. Others were above and beyond what we could even hope to detail in a book, and that's where the fact that these boards exist is really helpful.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that Mary never made valid arguements. She just made a lot of arguements and was not one to let a dead horse lie still.
One last appeal regarding the kuchrimas and I'll shut up. In RotRL, the giants are the thugs. The lamias are the elite. Even the lowly kuchrimas rank above the likes of ogres and hill giants.
Hmmmm...I seem to be kicking dead horses myself. I'll be quiet now.
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Creative Director
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Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that Mary never made valid arguements. She just made a lot of arguements and was not one to let a dead horse lie still.
One last appeal regarding the kuchrimas and I'll shut up. In RotRL, the giants are the thugs. The lamias are the elite. Even the lowly kuchrimas rank above the likes of ogres and hill giants.
Hmmmm...I seem to be kicking dead horses myself. I'll be quiet now.
There are COUNTLESS things you could nominate as "thugs" in Runelords. Saying "the giants are the thugs" is meaningless to this argument, which is about how the various lamia-kin function as a group of monsters on their own without any interaction with the rest of the game world.
Having one member of that group be a thug who's less intelligent/wise/charasmatic than all the ohters who doesn't have spell-like abilities is fundamentally more intresting than "just another lamia." A huge part of my design philosophy is that in order for a monster to be justified, it needs to do something new. And a new lamia whose CR is VERY CLOSE to both the lamia and the lamia matriarch needs to have a different feel. And that's something that a lack of spell-like abilities does VERY well.
I like the idea of Lamia having similar spell-like abilities as part of the "Lamia subtype" as I look at it even if they do not have an actual subtype or trait.
ooooo... I hope it's Mhar.Nope.
As revealed in Pathfinder #46, Mhar is a Great Old One. He'd be above CR 25, and as a result I'm not quite ready to stat him up. Yet.
I saw that.
Zoogs and vooniths and moonbeasts...oh MY!
Mary Yamamoto also noticed that the lamia harridans are missing the charming abilities common to all of the higher order lamia-kin. I notice that thier stat block in Spires of Xin-Shalast reads "Spell-like Abilities" instead of "Cleric Spells Prepared" so I'm wondering if a part of their block was accidentally cut. After all, like Mary says, the hungerers were created from the harridans and they have the expected spell-like abilities (Charm Monster, Mass Charm Monster, Suggestion).
Any plans to clear this up in the big book?
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So now that Bestiary 3 is out lets look at which monster might make it into this book. There are 16 monsters from RotRL bestiaries that have not been updated to PRPG. They are:
Goblin Snake (now appears in Bestiary 3)
Carrionstrom
Smoke Haunt
Skull Ripper
Argorth
Mother of Oblivion
Deathweb (now appears in Bestiary 3)
Scanberig
Runeslave
Ercinee
Night Monarch
Yethazamri
Crag Spider
Kuchrima
Harridan
Hungerer"
That leaves 14 updated. We can remove Night Monarch and Yethazamri as they don' actually appear in the AP.
So here are my guess for the six:
Carrionstorm
Mother of Oblivion
Scanberig
Runeslave
Ericinee
Harridan
What does everyone else think?
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@ Jacobasaur I don't recall this being asked before; if so, please forgive. The bestiary in the HMM gave the Ogrekin a greater range of choices regarding deformities than there are in the Bestiary 2. Do you intend to rebuild the Grauls based on the Bestiary 2, or do you intend to expand Bestiary 2's list of deformities?
I'm just curious as I am in the process of converting the Grauls into Hero Lab.
Thank you!
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That leaves 14 updated. We can remove Night Monarch and Yethazamri as they don' actually appear in the AP.
So here are my guess for the six:
Carrionstorm
Mother of Oblivion
Scanberig
Runeslave
Ericinee
HarridanWhat does everyone else think?
As far as the Runeslave goes, are you referring to the Runeslave Giants? If so, Bestiary 2 has the Rune Giant.
I have never run all of Rise of the Runelords, but would definitely like to either run or play in it especially after being updated to Pathfinder. Perhaps that is why I placed my order for this book already. Or maybe I just like giving Paizo all of my money.
The Mother of Oblivion was statted out in a free pdf if I remember correctly.
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Creative Director
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Mary Yamamoto also noticed that the lamia harridans are missing the charming abilities common to all of the higher order lamia-kin. I notice that thier stat block in Spires of Xin-Shalast reads "Spell-like Abilities" instead of "Cleric Spells Prepared" so I'm wondering if a part of their block was accidentally cut. After all, like Mary says, the hungerers were created from the harridans and they have the expected spell-like abilities (Charm Monster, Mass Charm Monster, Suggestion).
Any plans to clear this up in the big book?
Absolutely. Harridans are probably going to become a simple template for lamias, actually, rather than something all new and on their own. In which case their spell-like abilities are the same as a regular lamia.
In any case, clearing up the harridan's spell-like abilities will be handled in the reprint for sure.
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Creative Director
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@ Jacobasaur I don't recall this being asked before; if so, please forgive. The bestiary in the HMM gave the Ogrekin a greater range of choices regarding deformities than there are in the Bestiary 2. Do you intend to rebuild the Grauls based on the Bestiary 2, or do you intend to expand Bestiary 2's list of deformities?
I'm just curious as I am in the process of converting the Grauls into Hero Lab.
Thank you!
I believe I kept all the Graul deformities unchanged. The lists in both HMM and in Bestiary 2 are not intended to be full, complete lists, in any event; like ghost powers, you can make new deformities up if you want.
Won't templating the harridans make their stat blocks even longer and take up more space, thus reducing what might be added elsewhere? Can't say I'm in favor of that at all.
Won't templating the harridans make their stat blocks even longer and take up more space, thus reducing what might be added elsewhere? Can't say I'm in favor of that at all.Not if the template goes into the bestiary section. Hmmmm...have we discovered one of the six?
So picture this...Grand High Ceoptra as a lamia cleric with the harridan template. This will make her statblock quite a bit bigger IMO. That takes up room that could be used to better flesh out Xin-Shalast.
As far as the Runeslave goes, are you referring to the Runeslave Giants? If so, Bestiary 2 has the Rune Giant.That leaves 14 updated. We can remove Night Monarch and Yethazamri as they don' actually appear in the AP.
So here are my guess for the six:
Carrionstorm
Mother of Oblivion
Scanberig
Runeslave
Ericinee
HarridanWhat does everyone else think?
There was a Runeslave template that was applied to Giants in part 4 that is different then a Rune Giant.
Harridans as template, that would be very disapointing.
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Creative Director
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Won't templating the harridans make their stat blocks even longer and take up more space, thus reducing what might be added elsewhere? Can't say I'm in favor of that at all.
Templating a harridan won't increase their statblock length at all, really, since there's only one harridan in the AP. In addition, it prevents us having to use one of the bestiary appendix pages on a monster that's essentially no different than a lamia cleric advanced to Huge size, which allows me to put a brand new monster into the adventure path.
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Creative Director
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Harridans as template, that would be very disapointing.
Why?
I'm not being snarky. I honestly believe that the changes to a lamia to make her "harridan-identical" can fit into a simple template with ease, and thus save us an entire page that can then be used on a brand new monster that was originally (back in the day) going to have a role in the later AP but we ended up not using for various reasons.
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Creative Director
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So picture this...Grand High Ceoptra as a lamia cleric with the harridan template. This will make her statblock quite a bit bigger IMO. That takes up room that could be used to better flesh out Xin-Shalast.Won't templating the harridans make their stat blocks even longer and take up more space, thus reducing what might be added elsewhere? Can't say I'm in favor of that at all.Not if the template goes into the bestiary section. Hmmmm...have we discovered one of the six?
The current harridan from Pathfinder #6 already has the casting spellpower of a 12th level cleric, though, so adding a "spells prepared" section won't make a difference there. The statblock won't grow much in size from the one on page 82 in Pathfinder #6 at all as a result.
In any event, there's going to be big stat blocks near the end no matter what. As a result, I've made sure to reserve additional pages for expansion for the last two chapters.
Is there any chance that there will be stats for the other Runelords at the end for continuing the campaign?
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Creative Director
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Is there any chance that there will be stats for the other Runelords at the end for continuing the campaign?
None whatsoever.
I have other plans for the other six runelords that far outstrips what I could do in a "continuing the campaign" element for Rise of the Runelords.
Is there any chance that there will be stats for the other Runelords at the end for continuing the campaign?None whatsoever.
I have other plans for the other six runelords that far outstrips what I could do in a "continuing the campaign" element for Rise of the Runelords.
Hmm...do tell.
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Hmm...do tell.Is there any chance that there will be stats for the other Runelords at the end for continuing the campaign?None whatsoever.
I have other plans for the other six runelords that far outstrips what I could do in a "continuing the campaign" element for Rise of the Runelords.
I don't think he's allowed. If you are, though, by all means, do tell.
Is there any chance that there will be stats for the other Runelords at the end for continuing the campaign?None whatsoever.
I have other plans for the other six runelords that far outstrips what I could do in a "continuing the campaign" element for Rise of the Runelords.
Wow. I expected the first part of your answer. You anticipated my second question, and now I'm wondering what those plans could entail. I hope that means something interesting for the Shattered Star AP.
I guess my next question would really be . . . if you have a group of players who just finished this AP, and they really wanted to continue the fight against the other Runelords, would you;
A. Spend a lot of time and effort in creating the stats for all the Runelords yourself along with their minions, lairs, and such to make your players happy?
or
B. Tell your players to wait a year or so because Paizo has big plans for the Runelords that would blow away anything a tired, time-strapped, and old DM could come up with by himself?
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Is there any chance that there will be stats for the other Runelords at the end for continuing the campaign?None whatsoever.
I have other plans for the other six runelords that far outstrips what I could do in a "continuing the campaign" element for Rise of the Runelords.
Holy Hellfurnaces James!
You are a sexy beast!
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Creative Director
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Is there any chance that there will be stats for the other Runelords at the end for continuing the campaign?None whatsoever.
I have other plans for the other six runelords that far outstrips what I could do in a "continuing the campaign" element for Rise of the Runelords.
Wow. I expected the first part of your answer. You anticipated my second question, and now I'm wondering what those plans could entail. I hope that means something interesting for the Shattered Star AP.
I guess my next question would really be . . . if you have a group of players who just finished this AP, and they really wanted to continue the fight against the other Runelords, would you;
A. Spend a lot of time and effort in creating the stats for all the Runelords yourself along with their minions, lairs, and such to make your players happy?
or
B. Tell your players to wait a year or so because Paizo has big plans for the Runelords that would blow away anything a tired, time-strapped, and old DM could come up with by himself?
B. But it'll be longer than a year.
Shattered Star will have SOME new stuff about some runelords... but the AP itself is not ABOUT the runelords.
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Creative Director
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From the end of "Concluding the Campaign" in Pathfinder 6:
Most importantly, for all the party's success against Karzoug, he was but one of seven. The other six runelords went into seclusion at the same time as Karzoug, and the Runelord of Greed's attempt to rise sent ripples through the various runewells scattered throughout the world. These other six runelords are quickening in their tombs, preparing for their own emergence into Golarion. It might be years, even decades, but one thing is certain:
The Return of the Runelords draws near.
From the end of "Concluding the Campaign" in Pathfinder 6:
** spoiler omitted **
Spectacular! I couldn't have asked for a better response. I remember reading that passage, but I don't always expect such threads to be followed up on. Now I can quit working on my stats for Sorshen, and tell my players to just hold onto those old PC sheets. I'm really looking forward to whatever you have planned.