Xanesha is a pretty legendary encounter. It is non-sense to suggest that a party needs to be munchkinned to the max to take her on: for the simple reason that Xanesha is going to tear up a munchkinned party with just a bit more effort than your average party. She's just that good. Honestly, I like it that way. It is the point where a GM can take the party to the bone and really see what they're made of.
Flesh, bones, some disgusting tubes and stuff.
A purely simulationist approach to Xanesha is probably ill-advised though, as the numbers simply favor her too much.
When an adventure says "You MUST metagame this encounter or the campaign is over as the players will all die." then there has been a huge mess-up.
If you want something like this, to overwhelm the players with an impossible encounter, you can always sic a red dragon on them.
But I'd say that good module design demands that non-optional encounters should be possible without fiat.
But the very real threat of death (and perhaps one or two actual PC deaths) can open up a whole new avenue of roleplaying to explore as the survivors run for their lives and try to make good their escape
You sure you're not reading from the CoC RPG here?
Having just about finished running The Skinsaw Murders (the players face Xanesha tonight - They all know they're in for a hell of a fight and have been researching and planning) I have to note that there was a decided difference in the ease of GM work between the first half of the adventure (Sandpoint environs and Foxglove manor) and the second half (Magnimar). Besides brief descriptions of how the Magnimar city watch was handling the situation, I found the maps of the townhouse, sawmill and shadow clock to be hard to interpret or unrealistic in design (especially the sawmill). I'm hoping (since I believe I saw Vic mention something about new maps) that these will be corrected in this edition, as well as a little bit more fleshing-out of the city's reaction and handling of the murders. In addition, I'd really like to see a few red herrings or a list of rumors for PC's to come across and follow up on, as well as a bit more information upon Magnimar's history. Any chance we'll see something like this?
Creative Director
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Having just about finished running The Skinsaw Murders (the players face Xanesha tonight - They all know they're in for a hell of a fight and have been researching and planning) I have to note that there was a decided difference in the ease of GM work between the first half of the adventure (Sandpoint environs and Foxglove manor) and the second half (Magnimar). Besides brief descriptions of how the Magnimar city watch was handling the situation, I found the maps of the townhouse, sawmill and shadow clock to be hard to interpret or unrealistic in design (especially the sawmill). I'm hoping (since I believe I saw Vic mention something about new maps) that these will be corrected in this edition, as well as a little bit more fleshing-out of the city's reaction and handling of the murders. In addition, I'd really like to see a few red herrings or a list of rumors for PC's to come across and follow up on, as well as a bit more information upon Magnimar's history. Any chance we'll see something like this?
We'll probably get a bit more detail into the Magnimar part of the adventure, yes. And I suspect both the townhouse AND the sawmill will have the maps re-drawn... but mostly because we want maps that fit half pages better. Being able to redraw those maps to be a bit more realistic as houses and sawmills is a bonus.
We'll probably get a bit more detail into the Magnimar part of the adventure, yes. And I suspect both the townhouse AND the sawmill will have the maps re-drawn... but mostly because we want maps that fit half pages better. Being able to redraw those maps to be a bit more realistic as houses and sawmills is a bonus.
Can I put in my $.02 and suggest Blando? Those maps of his that I have seen are very well constructed, a treat for the eyes, easy to interpret and make sense (even if the structure itself is fantastic).
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In reference to the cover art, I have a suggestion that goes wildly against what makes sense.
*brace for backlash*
Why not use the cover of the players guide? Just move the text on it around to say:
------Pathfinder------
------(Sihedron)------
Rise of the Runelords
-Anniversary Edition-
(except of course, no dashes with pathfinder or the sihedron rune, they are just placeholders to move the words to illustrate my point. definited dashes or squiggles on both ends of 'anniversary edition')
It's iconic, it's nostalgic, and it has that 'ancient' look. While it doesn't tease, most people who are picking this up either have heard of it, already want it, or already know what is in it (this is indeed my assumption, however I believe it is a fair one). And if they don't meet those criteria, it's eye-catching in its own way. The cover has a big pointed star on it. People want to know what the deal with that is.
Just an idea.
P.S. Unrelated, but any chance the store could sell sihedron necklaces like all the bad guys have. Those are pretty cool.
i'm looking forward to this book!
Will the kuchrima get their SLAs back? Remember somewhere on these boards that Vaughn said they were supposed to have had Feather Fall at will and Shield and True Strike 3/day each.
While it doesn't tease, most people who are picking this up either have heard of it, already want it, or already know what is in it (this is indeed my assumption, however I believe it is a fair one).
Of course. Because everyone else will think it's some boring old thing and pass it over :P
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Can I put in my $.02 and suggest Blando? Those maps of his that I have seen are very well constructed, a treat for the eyes, easy to interpret and make sense (even if the structure itself is fantastic).
We'll probably get a bit more detail into the Magnimar part of the adventure, yes. And I suspect both the townhouse AND the sawmill will have the maps re-drawn... but mostly because we want maps that fit half pages better. Being able to redraw those maps to be a bit more realistic as houses and sawmills is a bonus.
Jared's maps, while aesthetically pleasing and very artful, are sometimes PITA when it comes to clarity and usefulness.
I personally prefer Jared on regional maps (the Sandpoint hinterlands map from JR1 is awesome) and good ole Rob L on tactical and urban mapping.
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In reference to the cover art, I have a suggestion that goes wildly against what makes sense.
*brace for backlash*
Why not use the cover of the players guide? Just move the text on it around to say:
------Pathfinder------
------(Sihedron)------
Rise of the Runelords
-Anniversary Edition-(except of course, no dashes with pathfinder or the sihedron rune, they are just placeholders to move the words to illustrate my point. definited dashes or squiggles on both ends of 'anniversary edition')
It's iconic, it's nostalgic, and it has that 'ancient' look. While it doesn't tease, most people who are picking this up either have heard of it, already want it, or already know what is in it (this is indeed my assumption, however I believe it is a fair one). And if they don't meet those criteria, it's eye-catching in its own way. The cover has a big pointed star on it. People want to know what the deal with that is.
Just an idea.
P.S. Unrelated, but any chance the store could sell sihedron necklaces like all the bad guys have. Those are pretty cool.
I actually like that idea. I doubt it will be done that way, but...
Icaste Fyrbawl: looks to me like eliminating the faux binding to the left and the metallic decoration on the other edges (extending the blue leather texture across the whole cover) would leave enough room for a metallic version of the current Pathfinder: Roleplaying Game logo on the top, and for a metallic RotRL: Anniversary Edition title on the bottom, without overlapping the eponymous runes.
Don't know if your idea is better from a sales standpoint, but it's certainly aesthetic! And I suspect it would get more of an "Oooh!" reaction being pulled off the shelf.
Icaste Fyrbawl: looks to me like eliminating the faux binding to the left and the metallic decoration on the other edges (extending the blue leather texture across the whole cover) would leave enough room for a metallic version of the current Pathfinder: Roleplaying Game logo on the top, and for a metallic RotRL: Anniversary Edition title on the bottom, without overlapping the eponymous runes.
Don't know if your idea is better from a sales standpoint, but it's certainly aesthetic! And I suspect it would get more of an "Oooh!" reaction being pulled off the shelf.
I'm glad you clarified what he was suggesting, because when I first read his suggestion I was thinking the artwork of the GameMastery Guide, not the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide, for some reason. I KNOW he said Player's Guide, but it didn't click right for me.
In other words, the suggestion is to basically do it black-cover with the Sihedron Rune in the middle? If it were just solid black or blue leather texture with the Sihedron Rune in the middle and no fake hinges or trim or anything like that, I think it could look cool.
Honestly, I'd rather It had
Rise of the Runelords
Anniversary Edition
at the top and the Pathfinder logo centered at the bottom.
Having the Pathfinder logo taking up the main title space is more of a thing suited for magazines than books IMO. (This is also a complaint I have with the Pathfinder Tales line. Book titles work better at the top of novels than product line logos.)
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CEO
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I remember the blog post of the Lego lineup of Paizo Runelords characters. So, what I learned from running our AP might be a good blog series.Will you restat the encounter with Xanesha? Every time I played it it's been a TPK or almost... when I did some math after PFRPG was released, I think I realized that encounter was 6 or 7 CRs above the party level.That encounter is probably the single most cited encounter in the category of "overpowered TPK machine." So... yes. Rebuilding that encounter is very much going to happen. In fact, we'll be rebuilding and rebalancing a lot of the encounters... some in small ways, some in big ways.
That was my gaming group! :)
-Lisa
That was my gaming group! :)
-Lisa
Maybe you should let Erik send Ostog in and see what happens :) He's invincible, after all....
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CEO
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Maybe you should let Erik send Ostog in and see what happens :) He's invincible, after all....That was my gaming group! :)
-Lisa
I only perma killed two characters in this AP, which was beneath my AP average. So far, none in Kingmaker. I usually had at least one by level 3. Must be slipping in my old age. :) I blame the Eidelon, who I would have killed twice.
-Lisa
Nice to see this post, i have heard about it but i hadn't came across this blog post.
I am really happy that they are updating to the PF rules.
Now i am torn about running RotRL in October or waiting for that.
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Creative Director
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FWIW, I just preordered. BOOM.
Are the haunts going to have to change significantly to be updated to PF?
Haunts were updated to Pathfinder in the GameMastery Guide. The haunts in Runelords will work like that, but will retain their unique categories for that particular haunted house.
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P.S. Unrelated, but any chance the store could sell sihedron necklaces like all the bad guys have. Those are pretty cool.+1
That would be very cool. Id probably be more likely to buy a keychain than a necklace, but still very cool.
I would buy a necklace. And wear it to GenCon every time I go.
And whack people on the head with it while shouting "The Power of Thassilon compels you!"
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Well, this is cool, I will be purchasing this for sure! Has anyone yet begged for the adventure to go past 15th level? I'm not asking for 20+ level stuff, I just can remember the awesome that was shackled city, and continue to hope that the added content will be stuff at the end, like tracking down another runelord come back from the dead or something.
Icaste Fyrbawl: looks to me like eliminating the faux binding to the left and the metallic decoration on the other edges (extending the blue leather texture across the whole cover) would leave enough room for a metallic version of the current Pathfinder: Roleplaying Game logo on the top, and for a metallic RotRL: Anniversary Edition title on the bottom, without overlapping the eponymous runes.
Don't know if your idea is better from a sales standpoint, but it's certainly aesthetic! And I suspect it would get more of an "Oooh!" reaction being pulled off the shelf.
I'm glad you clarified what he was suggesting, because when I first read his suggestion I was thinking the artwork of the GameMastery Guide, not the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide, for some reason. I KNOW he said Player's Guide, but it didn't click right for me.
In other words, the suggestion is to basically do it black-cover with the Sihedron Rune in the middle? If it were just solid black or blue leather texture with the Sihedron Rune in the middle and no fake hinges or trim or anything like that, I think it could look cool.
Honestly, I'd rather It had
Rise of the Runelords
Anniversary Editionat the top and the Pathfinder logo centered at the bottom.
Having the Pathfinder logo taking up the main title space is more of a thing suited for magazines than books IMO. (This is also a complaint I have with the Pathfinder Tales line. Book titles work better at the top of novels than product line logos.)
I remembered D&D novels that put the title above the art, so I double-checked my memory about how they did it (just looking at Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms novel covers). Although I didn't remember it there, they still put the logo above the title. They made it work by having a trim logo and relatively compact art. I intuit that Paizo's expansive art style is an aesthetic sense, in which case it would be resistant to persuasion.
There's also a psychological difficulty with not using art once it's been commissioned and paid for, even though sunk costs are economically irrelevant; if only for that, it's unlikely that our collaborative suggestion will be used at all, no matter how awesome it would look. Regardless, I think it's cool that the CEO and Creative Director probably at least read it. 8) I mean really, how often does that happen elsewhere? Not taking it for granted!
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Creative Director
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Well, this is cool, I will be purchasing this for sure! Has anyone yet begged for the adventure to go past 15th level? I'm not asking for 20+ level stuff, I just can remember the awesome that was shackled city, and continue to hope that the added content will be stuff at the end, like tracking down another runelord come back from the dead or something.
Actually, the Rise of the Runelords AP went to 17th level.
It's unlikely that the hardcover of Runelords will change that much. The added content will be throughout the campaign; a little bit at the end, but the biggest section will be details on the Festering Maze of Sloth in Runeforge, I suspect.
We won't be adding another runelord to the mix, though. That's not something we'd be able to add to the AP without making it twice as long, and that'd put it at over 800 pages and that's not really an option.
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Actually, the Rise of the Runelords AP went to 17th level.
Maybe in your game! My players got to about 15th. Of course, it was a group of 6 players, so that may have a lot to do with it.
Hey, on that note, when you get to a new section in the AP, could you list something like: "By now, a party of 4 players should be #th level, +/-# for a group of smaller or larger size," I notice you do this more in your current adventure paths, but I thought I might give a shout out about that while I'm posting about things I'd like to see, lest it get overlooked.
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Creative Director
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Maybe in your game! My players got to about 15th. Of course, it was a group of 6 players, so that may have a lot to do with it.
Actually, that pretty much has everything to do with it. To be 17th level on the fast track (which is essentially what RotR used, since it used the 3.5 system) you would need 850,000 xp per person, which in a 4 person party (like RotR assumes) is a total award of 3,400,000 XP. In a 6 person party, that ends up being 566,666 XP... or in other words... a group of 6 15th level characters.
Still want this. Reading this thread makes me want this more. Just an FYI. ;)
Also still hoping for medium advancement track like all the PF APs, and willing to shell out more money for it. If it's destined to stay fast track, see my first two sentences in this post. :P
Will this book be translated to french by Black Books Editions like the rest of the RotRL AP? I bought all of them (in french) and would be very interested to complete the collection with a french version of this awesome hardcover version.
Thanks
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Chief Technical Officer
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Will this book be translated to french by Black Books Editions like the rest of the RotRL AP? I bought all of them (in french) and would be very interested to complete the collection with a french version of this awesome hardcover version.
Thanks
Black Book Editions is free to make their own decision on when and if they want to do that.
So I better go put some pressure on their message board then. Thanks for your time!
What are the chances of getting some info (blog post, something here, message from a delivery pteradon) on possible NPC class changes? What I'm looking for is something along the lines of
Bob - changed from fighter to cavalier
Henry - staying the same
Fred - changing from fighter/wizard/eldritch knight to magus
Sally - staying the same
so on...
There was a lot of talk on the RotRl boards of changes to key NPCs, especially with the APG/UC/UM books out...so I wasn't sure if there were plans to fiddle with this much/lots/not at all. I know James said earlier things were going to stay as close to core as possible, with some adjustments, so chances things aren't going to be changed enough to warrant much of an answer, but I thought I'd ask anyways. As someone who fiddles with this type of thing a lot, I wanted to know as far ahead of time as possible what official "fiddling" there would be.
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Creative Director
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What are the chances of getting some info (blog post, something here, message from a delivery pteradon) on possible NPC class changes? What I'm looking for is something along the lines of
Bob - changed from fighter to cavalier
Henry - staying the same
Fred - changing from fighter/wizard/eldritch knight to magus
Sally - staying the same
so on...There was a lot of talk on the RotRl boards of changes to key NPCs, especially with the APG/UC/UM books out...so I wasn't sure if there were plans to fiddle with this much/lots/not at all. I know James said earlier things were going to stay as close to core as possible, with some adjustments, so chances things aren't going to be changed enough to warrant much of an answer, but I thought I'd ask anyways. As someone who fiddles with this type of thing a lot, I wanted to know as far ahead of time as possible what official "fiddling" there would be.
I can do that right here:
I can't think of a single NPC in Rise of the Runelords who's going to have a class change, with the exception of three:
Aside from that, I'm not planning on changing any class levels at all.
What are the chances of getting some info (blog post, something here, message from a delivery pteradon) on possible NPC class changes? What I'm looking for is something along the lines of
Bob - changed from fighter to cavalier
Henry - staying the same
Fred - changing from fighter/wizard/eldritch knight to magus
Sally - staying the same
so on...There was a lot of talk on the RotRl boards of changes to key NPCs, especially with the APG/UC/UM books out...so I wasn't sure if there were plans to fiddle with this much/lots/not at all. I know James said earlier things were going to stay as close to core as possible, with some adjustments, so chances things aren't going to be changed enough to warrant much of an answer, but I thought I'd ask anyways. As someone who fiddles with this type of thing a lot, I wanted to know as far ahead of time as possible what official "fiddling" there would be.
I can do that right here:
I can't think of a single NPC in Rise of the Runelords who's going to have a class change, with the exception of three: ** spoiler omitted **
Aside from that, I'm not planning on changing any class levels at all.
James if you will indulge me I can think of 1 and only 1 off the top of my head who would seriously be awesome with a class change
I can understand you not changing it though, I'm just saying is all. I can't really think of any that need a true class change outside of that.
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Creative Director
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There are plenty of NPCs who might have "better" class fits... but their current classes work just fine.
There are some pesky utility spells introduced in UM/UC that I hope you address explicitly.
Mostly I'm thinking of Restore Corpse and how it can undo a lot of the mysteries in Skinsaw Murders. Currently, the antagonists rip the jaws off the victims to prevent Speak with Dead. But now that measure doesn't go far enough. :-(
James, thanks for the very quick responce, this is one of the reasons I love you guys.
Good to know, even if it's disappointing news. To be completely honest, "their current classes work just fine" following the statement "might have "better" class fits" is disheartening. I don't buy Paizo because it's good enough, or works just fine, but because it's generally jaw droppingly amazing. There is a history of going the extra mile, and often times an extra mile ontop of that here. Granted, I fully understand rereleasing RotRl is going about ten extra miles at least, so please don't think I'm unappreciative. I do think that if there are better fits, then the best way to make the best product possible is to use those. Time constraints and other factors always need to be considered of course. For me, I would be game for waiting an extra month or so to have a book that's 100% mind bogglingly cool, then get one that is 99% mind bogglingly cool.
Either way, if that's the answer then that's the answer, and I'm still preordering two, and giving you a huge thank you for updating/adding to this most amazing adventure.
I can do that right here:
I can't think of a single NPC in Rise of the Runelords who's going to have a class change, with the exception of three: ** spoiler omitted **
Aside from that, I'm not planning on changing any class levels at all.
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Creative Director
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** spoiler omitted **I can do that right here:
I can't think of a single NPC in Rise of the Runelords who's going to have a class change, with the exception of three: ** spoiler omitted **
Aside from that, I'm not planning on changing any class levels at all.
I'm kinda worn out by archetypes, honestly.
And anyway... preserving as much of the adventure as it was is a big goal of mine. There WILL be some new content here and there, and that's probably the best place to hope for an inclusion of something like a witch or a magus, I guess, but I'm not a big fan of "fixing what's not broken."
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Creative Director
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Well, if you're not gong to change ** spoiler omitted ** class, can you at least make him something like a challenge? (Though he really would be an excellent inquisitor...)
Making encounters that ended up being too easy/too hard more balanced is one of the big things I'll be doing. Further, since an NPC with class levels in Pathfinder is lower CR than an NPC with class levels in 3.5, I'm going to HAVE to give most NPCs in the campaign at least one extra level anyway.
Turns out that going through the tens of thousands of posts on the Runelords boards (which is something I'm already doing) will likely reveal all of these areas that need adjustment and more.
I can think of a trio of Annis Hags (you know, the ones exiled to the Bonus Bestiary) that could use some witch levels, and a wight that needs to be a dread wight ranger.....
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Well, if you're not gong to change ** spoiler omitted ** class, can you at least make him something like a challenge? (Though he really would be an excellent inquisitor...)Making encounters that ended up being too easy/too hard more balanced is one of the big things I'll be doing. Further, since an NPC with class levels in Pathfinder is lower CR than an NPC with class levels in 3.5, I'm going to HAVE to give most NPCs in the campaign at least one extra level anyway.
Turns out that going through the tens of thousands of posts on the Runelords boards (which is something I'm already doing) will likely reveal all of these areas that need adjustment and more.
Oof...
As much as I am looking forward to the end product, I don't envy that task.
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Well, if you're not gong to change ** spoiler omitted ** class, can you at least make him something like a challenge? (Though he really would be an excellent inquisitor...)Making encounters that ended up being too easy/too hard more balanced is one of the big things I'll be doing. Further, since an NPC with class levels in Pathfinder is lower CR than an NPC with class levels in 3.5, I'm going to HAVE to give most NPCs in the campaign at least one extra level anyway.
Turns out that going through the tens of thousands of posts on the Runelords boards (which is something I'm already doing) will likely reveal all of these areas that need adjustment and more.
Just don't let those Xanesha threads detract you from buffing her! ;-)
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Creative Director
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I'm kinda worn out by archetypes, honestly.So your saying new base classes then? :D
Ha. No.
I'm saying that the classes and options in the Core are good enough for an adventure path on their own, and that just because we introduce new options doesn't mean it's a good idea to abandon the old options.
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I'm kinda worn out by archetypes, honestly.So your saying new base classes then? :DHa. No.
I'm saying that the classes and options in the Core are good enough for an adventure path on their own, and that just because we introduce new options doesn't mean it's a good idea to abandon the old options.
Yeah i know, i just could resist such a good volley setup. :)