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pad300 wrote:Econ Question for Vic Wertz. Would it be practical (and possibly cheaper for Paizo) to make a box set: The interior stuff could be the 6 AP modules, just with corrections from 3.5 to PF, almost no retypesetting needed. You could even go to a stapled not sewn/glued binding ilke the original red box set...I believe that Lisa or Vic (or both) have stated in the past that box sets are not cheap at all - that, while cool, there is no cost savings in producing such a product over a hardcover.
This is true. (Slipcases, for some reason, seem to be crazy expensive.)
But even if it were easier and cheaper, it wouldn't be the best move.
For one thing, XP works a bit differently in Pathfinder and 3.5, so just changing the stats has the potential to actually introduce new XP problems in places—hence the new encounters sprinkled throughout.
More importantly, though, we just wouldn't be satisfied with that. We've learned a lot about making APs in the last five years, and we've learned a lot from reading your feedback on Rise of the Runelords. And we've got a much better idea of what Golarion looks like. This is a great opportunity to tweak things to improve on the original.
Finally, speaking from a strictly commercial point of view, increasing the appeal of the collection to people who already purchased the original volumes is pretty important.

Kajehase |

Joana wrote:Pretty sure it's a CYA statement, like the about getting a complete set of minis if you buy a case: in case of human error, if someone doesn't get a complete set, they can't come back to Paizo and say, "Hey, you lied to me!"
If the official wording says "We will never compile another AP," and then they end up updating, say, CotCT for their 15th or 20th anniversary, then people can say, "Hey, you lied to us! You said you weren't going to do that!" They don't want to commit to doing or not doing anything indefinitely.
Pretty much that. Saying "never" is never a good idea...
** spoiler omitted **
Well, never say never again.

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$60? My interest in this product just doubled. I've been scheming to get ahold of this AP, but the prices online sellers want for Book I alone are insane. I see other 3.5 APs around in used bookstores or sometimes even regular gaming stores, but never a Runelords installment.
Updating and compiling this was an incredible idea, and newcomers to Pathfinder like myself, who have no affordable way to get ahold of the older stuff but know of it by reputation, will love you guys for it. In fact, I just subscribed and preordered.

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Vic Wertz wrote:
Pretty much that. Saying "never" is never a good idea...** spoiler omitted **
Reminds me of my communication lecturer some time ago who said:
"Somebody who says "never" or "always" is always trying to manipulate you .... always ...."
:o)
That's why us lawyers, who are on principle honest to a fault and never, EVER use any deception or misinformation, prefer to use words such as "unlikely", "probably", "quite possibly" or "never, unless..." ;-)

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pad300 wrote:Econ Question for Vic Wertz. Would it be practical (and possibly cheaper for Paizo) to make a box set: The interior stuff could be the 6 AP modules, just with corrections from 3.5 to PF, almost no retypesetting needed. You could even go to a stapled not sewn/glued binding ilke the original red box set...I believe that Lisa or Vic (or both) have stated in the past that box sets are not cheap at all - that, while cool, there is no cost savings in producing such a product over a hardcover.
Yep.
In fact, Lisa (and others) said that, once you look at the numbers, you see that all those box sets TSR did actually LOST money. It was one of the factors that caused TSR's demise in fact.
Back on topic, I think it's really cool that Paizo is doing this to honor the fifth anniversary of the Pathfinder Adventure Path and the tenth anniversary of Paizo ! What an awesome gift to the fans!

Power Word Unzip |
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I wanted to chime in here and say thanks to Paizo for greenlighting this book. I, like many other fans, offer a lot of criticism about upcoming products, and I'd like to make sure that the perception isn't that we are all squeaky wheels with no capacity for satisfaction or recognition. =]
That you listened to your fans and undertook this project, making the adventure path accessible for even more gamers who missed it the first time around or are concerned about making mistakes in converting it from D&D3.5 to PFRPG, is a wonderful thing indeed. Thank you so much, and I hope it sells out - I'm doing my part to spread the word about it to the gamers I know who have never played through "Runelords"!
(An aside question: Is this compilation something that will only be printed once, or do you see it going through multiple printings? The difference to me personally being that instead of ordering two right off the bat, I might wait for the revised and errata'd reprinting to get my second copy.)

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(An aside question: Is this compilation something that will only be printed once, or do you see it going through multiple printings? The difference to me personally being that instead of ordering two right off the bat, I might wait for the revised and errata'd reprinting to get my second copy.)
While I won't 100% rule out additional printings, we plan to print enough of the first printing that we think that it will be the only printing. This is how we usually approach all of the books outside of the core RPG line. So I would put the chance of a second printing at less than 10%. But you never know. We could vastly underestimate demand. It has happened before! :)
-Lisa

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Joana wrote:Pretty sure it's a CYA statement, like the about getting a complete set of minis if you buy a case: in case of human error, if someone doesn't get a complete set, they can't come back to Paizo and say, "Hey, you lied to me!"
If the official wording says "We will never compile another AP," and then they end up updating, say, CotCT for their 15th or 20th anniversary, then people can say, "Hey, you lied to us! You said you weren't going to do that!" They don't want to commit to doing or not doing anything indefinitely.
Pretty much that. Saying "never" is never a good idea...
** spoiler omitted **
See the problem here is that you, Vic, stated in this comment that it is not going to happen. To me it reads "We will never compile another AP" and if that is not the intent then you shouldn't say it. Either you are open for compiling other APs or you are not, and if you are there is no harm in people saying that they would like it to happen.
Seriously, guys, please stop asking for other compilations. It's not going to happen, and I don't want people who don't read carefully thinking it's likely to happen.
One of the main reasons for not doing this one is that just having the notion out there that we *might* do this for other APs is harmful. I'd really appreciate it if everybody would help squash that idea whenever and wherever it is raised.This is a unique circumstance.

Joana |

Vic Wertz wrote:Joana wrote:Pretty sure it's a CYA statement, like the about getting a complete set of minis if you buy a case: in case of human error, if someone doesn't get a complete set, they can't come back to Paizo and say, "Hey, you lied to me!"
If the official wording says "We will never compile another AP," and then they end up updating, say, CotCT for their 15th or 20th anniversary, then people can say, "Hey, you lied to us! You said you weren't going to do that!" They don't want to commit to doing or not doing anything indefinitely.
Pretty much that. Saying "never" is never a good idea...
** spoiler omitted **
See the problem here is that you, Vic, stated in this comment that it is not going to happen. To me it reads "We will never compile another AP" and if that is not the intent then you shouldn't say it. Either you are open for compiling other APs or you are not, and if you are there is no harm in people saying that they would like it to happen.
Vic Wertz wrote:Seriously, guys, please stop asking for other compilations. It's not going to happen, and I don't want people who don't read carefully thinking it's likely to happen.
One of the main reasons for not doing this one is that just having the notion out there that we *might* do this for other APs is harmful. I'd really appreciate it if everybody would help squash that idea whenever and wherever it is raised.This is a unique circumstance.
And Lisa stated in a forum post that buying a case of minis ought to get you a complete set. The press release/product description does not make that claim.
I.e., the Paizo staff speak for themselves and not ex cathedra on the fora. :)
The alternative is that they stop chatting with us on the forums and run all communication with the customer base through a law firm.

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While I won't 100% rule out additional printings, we plan to print enough of the first printing that we think that it will be the only printing. This is how we usually approach all of the books outside of the core RPG line. So I would put the chance of a second printing at less than 10%. But you never know. We could vastly underestimate demand. It has happened before! :)-Lisa
I sure hope you do underestimate the demand, and that you may reconsider to compile others AP because of it!

Jeffrey Palmer |

Lisa Stevens wrote:I sure hope you do underestimate the demand, and that you may reconsider to compile others AP because of it!
While I won't 100% rule out additional printings, we plan to print enough of the first printing that we think that it will be the only printing. This is how we usually approach all of the books outside of the core RPG line. So I would put the chance of a second printing at less than 10%. But you never know. We could vastly underestimate demand. It has happened before! :)-Lisa
Ditto! I'd buy everyone you guys did! And even if this is it, thanks! It'll great on my shelf and I'll really look forward to reading it!
Jeff...
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And Lisa stated in a forum post that buying a case of minis ought to get you a complete set. The press release/product description does not make that claim.
I.e., the Paizo staff speak for themselves and not ex cathedra on the fora. :)
The alternative is that they stop chatting with us on the forums and run all communication with the customer base through a law firm.
Except that the press release does state that:
Buyers who purchase factory-sealed cases (4 bricks) should get a nearly complete set of figures.
Located in the first Q/A, last sentence of the first paragraph. Sorry, but that supports my statement that we should not be told in a hostile manner to stop talking about something that is told to us in the product description.
If I want to talk about how cool it would be to print other APs like this and the product description states that it is a possibility in the future then I shouldn't be told later by an employee that it is not a possibility and we need to stop talking about it.
All I am saying is that if it is a possibility then don't tell me to shut up about it and if it is not a possibility then remove the part in the product description that says it is one.

deinol |

If I want to talk about how cool it would be to print other APs like this and the product description states that it is a possibility in the future then I shouldn't be told later by an employee that it is not a possibility and we need to stop talking about it.
I like how a Question/Answer that is specifically there to tell people it isn't going to happen is being used as a glimmer of hope that it still may happen.
Q: Will you be doing hardcover compilations of all of your Adventure Paths?
A: No.
They go on to qualify that they have no plans to reprint. Yes, they left it open for a faint, remotest possibility in case they change their mind someday in the future.
This however, is a product thread for Rise of the Runelords. If you want to start another thread about bringing back other APs elsewhere on the forums go ahead. Paizo has never locked down or discouraged those threads before. Other than to come say, time and again, that regularly compiling old APs discourages current subscribers so they don't do it.
I for one look forward to this special, unique, one of a kind product.

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All I am saying is that if it is a possibility then don't tell me to shut up about it and if it is not a possibility then remove the part in the product description that says it is one.
Guys, can't we all agree that the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition is a great thing and just support it? I'm pretty sure that if we just do so, and show them that we ARE interested in buying such products (even those of us with an AP subscription), then maybe they'll reconsider it then.
I mean, it's totally understandable that they are afraid to lose some good customers if they tend to do this kind of release on a regular basis, and the last thing I want to see is a great company such as Paizo to have some financial problems because of a decision made in too much of a hurry.
Paizo has listened to their customers, A LOT, and if they think they can manage to do it, without shooting themselve in the foot, they will! Otherwise, Who knows, maybe they'll keep it going just as an Anniversary thing once every X years, or not.
Meanwhile, let's just all enjoy what they are doing for us, and support them for what a great job they are doing!
And I sure as hell can't wait for that Rise of the Runelord special edition!

Ross Byers RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |

Sorry, but that supports my statement that we should not be told in a hostile manner to stop talking about something that is told to us in the product description.
First of all, I don't think Vic was being hostile in the least. Firm, direct, unsubtle, sure (and with reason), but hostile, not so much.
Second, the product description does not state that future compilations are a possibility. It flat out says we are not planning on it. It does not state that they are impossible, but that is not the same as saying they are possible (at least in English, not math). It absolutely is not the same as saying they are probable.
Q: Will you be doing hardcover compilations of all of your Adventure Paths?
A: No. This is a special celebration of our very first Adventure Path on its 5th Anniversary. Several of the original volumes of Rise of the Runelords have been unavailable in print for a long time, yet it remains one of our most popular adventure paths; that circumstance presents a unique opportunity for us to expand and update it for use with the Pathfinder RPG, and to apply lessons we've learned about making Adventure Paths over the last half-decade. Our other adventure paths are largely still in print, and many of them were designed for use with the Pathfinder RPG to begin with; we have no plans to recompile them anytime soon.
It says "No." and elaborates on why the answer is "No." No matter how many times you quote the final sentence out of context will not change that.
It is not code for "we have plans to recompile them not soon i.e. later".
It is not code for "we expect to change our minds".
It is certainly not meant to be somehow construed as a reason to expect them.
Just to make sure things are clear, I've removed the words "anytime soon" from the product description, just in case more people take them to mean we have plans ever, as opposed to no plans at all.
I understand you'd like to see those products made, but this isn't the place to talk about it. We've made it clear why the expectation of hardcover compilations could be very bad for us

Anguish |

See the problem here is that you, Vic, stated in this comment that it is not going to happen. To me it reads "We will never compile another AP" and if that is not the intent then you shouldn't say it. Either you are open for compiling other APs or you are not, and if you are there is no harm in people saying that they would like it to happen.
I have been wanting to re-phrase Vic's position for him a number of times in this thread, so I'm going to try now.
Imagine Vic had said this:
"Paizo intends to never update and compile other adventure paths in the future."
That's what Vic wants known and understood. I personally think the phraseology "we do not intend to X" is too weak to express their position. There is not merely a lack of intent, there is actually unwillingness, reluctance, and desire to not do another one of these.
The risk behind anyone thinking otherwise is serious. The AP product line is Paizo's bread & butter. It's what makes all the other products possible, practical, and profitable. If compilations are likely or even suspected likely, some number of people will drop their AP subscriptions. The logic is "why subscribe when the product's going to be re-released later, updated, expanded, and hardcover?" Loss of subscriptions undermines the AP products. That's why Vic's made it clear, barring some serious change in circumstances, this is a one-time event.
Also a factor, let's keep in mind that RotR was produced when Paizo really didn't know if the AP products would sink or swim. Print runs were relatively conservative and demand was way higher than expected. So the print copies went out of supply earlier than expected. That's not normal for the other APs. This one has demand, mechanical opportunity to update, and an anniversary nostalgia factor.
Point is that it's supreme alignment of ideal factors that with any luck - from Paizo's perspective - won't ever happen again, regardless of what some customers might like. Like foods that clog your arteries and kill you... what you want may actually be bad for you.

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To begin with all I was originally saying was that it would be nice to have the Pre-PFRPG APs recompiled to use PFRPG rules. And Vic stated that it will never happen, to stop talking about it, and stop anyone else from talking about it. That to me was very hostile, because I was just voicing an opinion and desire and he told me to shut up.
And I understand now what he may have intended to say but that is not what he said. If I state that "I will pay rent on time" and then later say that the intent was that "I wouldn't pay rent to late" it holds no grounds cause that is not what I said, it doesn't matter what the intent was.
OK, I am fine with that. I was just saying if you have no plans to every do another AP then don't make it sound like there is the possibility. 0% is not the same as .01%, given enough time the later will happen. With that line removed the subject is dropped cause now there is no doubt that you will never make another one and speculation of it happening won't have any grounds.
Sorry for all of this. But I don't appreciate being told to shut up about something that has grounds for discussion.

Bengaijin |

Back to the AP at hand, which I am delighted to see as a special edition...
What level span can we expect? Same as the original?
Will there be new encounters/"in-game" content, or will the new material likely be for support and clarification only (ie An NPC gallery, a magic item compendium, incorporated errata, etc)?
Definitely excited for this one.

Bengaijin |

Will there be new encounters/"in-game" content, or will the new material likely be for support and clarification only (ie An NPC gallery, a magic item compendium, incorporated errata, etc)?
Axe that question - I should read more carefully. If I did, I would know the answer is 'yes'.

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chopswil wrote:In fact, this would be a great place to put the original, uncensored version of Hook Mountain Massacre back in!Please DO NOT tone down the "Mama Graul" parts.
Keep them as they are or or crank up the "Deliverance" factor!!!!
Doubtful, but would be awesome

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Let's just appreciate the fact that Paizo is doing this compilation in celebration of their Anniversary!! I personally would like to see Paizo move forward in their Pathfinder line and not live in the past by converting their beginning AP's. Don't get me wrong as I am excited for the revised RotRL but I am equally, if not more, excited to see what other products are to come. Game on friends!!

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Let's just appreciate the fact that Paizo is doing this compilation in celebration of their Anniversary!! I personally would like to see Paizo move forward in their Pathfinder line and not live in the past by converting their beginning AP's. Don't get me wrong as I am excited for the revised RotRL but I am equally, if not more, excited to see what other products are to come. Game on friends!!
I am as excited as you are, but I'd still like to see the non-Pathfinder ones converted and compiled eventually. (And, dare I say it, in due course the Pathfinder ones converted to Pathfinder second edition.)
If Paizo does one every five years or so, that should prevent the problem of people cancelling subscriptions. Why buy the Shackles adventure path? You do know it's going to be brought out in hardcover for Pathfinder 2 in 2037, right?

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the Haunted Jester wrote:Let's just appreciate the fact that Paizo is doing this compilation in celebration of their Anniversary!! I personally would like to see Paizo move forward in their Pathfinder line and not live in the past by converting their beginning AP's. Don't get me wrong as I am excited for the revised RotRL but I am equally, if not more, excited to see what other products are to come. Game on friends!!I am as excited as you are, but I'd still like to see the non-Pathfinder ones converted and compiled eventually. (And, dare I say it, in due course the Pathfinder ones converted to Pathfinder second edition.)
If Paizo does one every five years or so, that should prevent the problem of people cancelling subscriptions. Why buy the Shackles adventure path? You do know it's going to be brought out in hardcover for Pathfinder 2 in 2037, right?
And at that point Paizo would go belly up as everybody would cancel their AP sub, safely sure that someday they will buy a collected, updated, upgraded (and cheaper) edition.

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And, dare I say it, in due course the Pathfinder ones converted to Pathfinder second edition.)
Wow. If they don't have the time or resources to convert 3 APs from 3.5 to PFRPG, what makes you think they would EVER have the time or resources to convert that many APs over to PF2E ? If they were to attempt that, they would probably have to simply shut down all other products for a couple of years minimum.
How about I make the suggestion that if, in ten years, you want to play Carrion Crown, instead of begging Paizo to convert it to PF2E, you just play it using PF1E rules?

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They are making this hardcover, as I understand it, NOT because it needs to be updated, but because it's Out of Print and highly demanded. The updating is just an added bonus. It's not that PFRPG is incompatible with the AP as it was. In any event, that's a discussion for a forum and not a product description thread.
Someone asked a question, beyond re-balancing encounters, about a CR difference between giants in Beastiary 2 versus the original module (14 v 17, apparently)... I'm sure the situation will be similar to other books, where many creatures just get a Bestiary page number but variants get their own statblock on the page.

The Forgotten |

Translation: Paizo might compile AP's in the future, if this compilation proves profitable. Part of the problem is that at 2 AP's a year there really isn't enough material to produce regular compilations. Also, Kingmaker and Carrion Crown, two of Paizo's most popular APs are relatively recent. The popularity of the APs between Rise of the Runelords and Kingmaker probably does not justify a compiled volume.
Personally, I expect that we are going to see a Kingmaker compilation in about three years, along with mini support.

Blazej |

To begin with all I was originally saying was that it would be nice to have the Pre-PFRPG APs recompiled to use PFRPG rules. And Vic stated that it will never happen, to stop talking about it, and stop anyone else from talking about it. That to me was very hostile, because I was just voicing an opinion and desire and he told me to shut up.
I'm unsure if this helps the issue (and I hope I'm recalling this correctly), but I believe this is because of what occurred last time they released a compilation. When they were doing Dungeon magazine they compiled their first adventure path into a book. Later on, it seemed apparent that many people were canceled their subscriptions because they were waiting for the later compilation books. The very thought that they might print a compilation was enough to cause them to lose a lot of sales.
They want to avoid that thought from spreading and morphing to such that potential customers think that they won't bother with a subscription because they believe that there will be compilations of the best adventure paths later on.
If people think that there may possibly continue to do compilations, that is bad for them.
Translation: Paizo might compile AP's in the future, if this compilation proves profitable.
Even if it is profitable, I doubt that they will compile anymore adventure paths because it has the potential of cutting off a significant portion of their monthly revenue.

deinol |

Rise of the Runelords is the only AP to have sold out parts. Paizo has no incentive to create a compilation of other APs that they are still trying to sell in their store.
On the other hand, they may do another Christmas bundle where you can buy all the volumes together at a discount.

Papa-DRB |
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I am a Charter AP Subscriber, so I have all six volumes. Also the Players Guide, and the Map Folio and I am still buying this!
Real life cancelled the game the last time I ran it just after Mammy Graul, but I have a new group and this will be awesome after we finish Kingmaker.
Pre-Ordered! And I can't wait for the miniature set supporting this to come out as I will buy that also.
Oh well, that's my birthday present for July 2012...
-- david
Papa.DRB

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Actually I do have a question. Will the players guide be part of it as well? And will the players guide be expanded and updated like the more recent ones?
I'm gonna start answering these as I go, so apologies if I repeat any info...
The Rise of the Runelords Player's guide actually had VERY little information specifically about Rise of the Runelords. It was more like an Introduction to Golarion Player's Guide, to be honest.
We'll have some information about how to start your Runelords campaign in the book, though—exactly what sort of additional Player's Guide bonus content we'll have for the hardcover is unclear at this time.

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The Forgotten wrote:Translation: Paizo might compile AP's in the future, if this compilation proves profitable.Even if it is profitable, I doubt that they will compile anymore adventure paths because it has the potential of cutting off a significant portion of their monthly revenue.
Blazej is correct—the profitability of this book will not cause us to compile other APs.

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KaeYoss wrote:Doubtful, but would be awesomechopswil wrote:In fact, this would be a great place to put the original, uncensored version of Hook Mountain Massacre back in!Please DO NOT tone down the "Mama Graul" parts.
Keep them as they are or or crank up the "Deliverance" factor!!!!
The maturity level of the content will not be changing either way.

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1. How much of the added content is material you have already published elsewhere? E.g. the write up of Xin-Shalast in Lost Cities of Golarion, the Sandpoint NPC gallery in Jade Regent #1, the web freebie on Thassilonian magic, and so on? I'm asking because I'm wondering whether - above and beyond this being a golden opportunity for people who missed getting the path the first time round - there's enough added value for older customers who own these materials already.
2. What's the estimated overall page count? Roughly in the vicinity of Shackled City hardcover?
Thanks.
Edit. Two afterthoughts. First, print copies of the Runelords Player's Guide are still available cheaply at many places online. Second, might be worth pointing out that possession of Bestiary 2 is a prerequisite to using the Runelords hardcover (or at least, that's what I assume, otherwise you couldn't have cut down on the bestiary entries).
1) While some of the "added content" might come from other material we've published elsewhere (the writeup of Xin-Shalast in Lost Cities is a good example of a place we'll be looking at picking some stuff up from), the bulk of the "added content" will be new content that I'll be writing specifically for this printing of the campaign. That said... there won't be a LOT of new content in that regard—I'm still figuring out how much actual space for that kind of new stuff I'll have. I'll post more information about that when I have it.
2) Estimated page count is 420. Exactly the same size as the Shackled City book.
Edit) Again, the Runelords player's guide didn't really serve well as a specific for that AP player's guide, really. It was mostly geared at letting players know about Golarion. We don't have to do that now. We've got plenty of that kind of information already.
We WILL assume you'll have access to Bestiary 2 and even Bestiary 3 to run this one—those stats will be on the PRD though (I hope) by the time the book releases in any case. Being able to do short stat blocks of things like bunyips and lamia matriarchs and wendigos and the like is one of the primary ways I'll be able to add that new content, after all!

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I will be pre ordering this. I have a request thou.
The one thing I did not like about the Shackled City hardcover was all the monsters were listed alphabetally in the back. So I was always flipping back and forth when running it. Can Paizo please sort them by chapter/ alpahbetally?
The monster stats will be treated the same way as they have been in every Pathfinder AP—inline in the text as they are needed for their encounters. Placing the stats in the back in the way we did in the Shackled City book was an error, I think.
By placing the stats there in the encounter, at least if things run the way we anticipate, there's no page flipping since you're already on that page. By placing the stats in the back, we only guarantee you'll ALWAYS be page flipping when it comes to stats.