+1 for Dungeons of Golarion ! (But please, nothing like that horrible Dungeon book from WotC that came out in the dying days of 3.5)You mean Dungeonscape? Which was written by Paizo's own lead designer Jason Bulmahn?
EPIC BURN!!!! :RoFL:
and +2 on Dungeons of Golarion
Mmmm, not really as good as I hoped. The maps are great [as usual] but I would have liked some City stats with more major NPC's etc.
7/10
Mmmm, not really as good as I hoped. The maps are great [as usual] but I would have liked some City stats with more major NPC's etc.
What do you mean by "some City stats" and "more major NPCs" and "etc."?
Creative Director
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Not to speak for stuart, but I *think* he might be referring to the city stat block where population, government form, max gold, important NPCs, and other pertinent information is contained.
That IS, unfortunately, a place where the Pathfinder RPG isn't that robust yet. The rules for full city stat blocks from the 3.5 DMG are, as far as I can tell, not open content—they're not in the SRD, and thus we can't really make use of them. We CAN build new rules, but there wasn't enough room in the Pathfinder RPG to do that. This is something I hope that the Gamemastery Guide will address and fix by providing new guidelines and rules for things like that. We've tinkered with several variants on the city stat block in the meantime (such as the ones on the inside front cover of Cities of Golarion), but I'm not yet happy with one yet to say "This is the way it should be" for all city stat blocks.
In short; yeah, we know, and we're working on fixing it.
Ravenmantle, yes exactly!
James, sorry, I didn't realize the OGL included that sort of stuff.
Not to speak for stuart, but I *think* he might be referring to the city stat block where population, government form, max gold, important NPCs, and other pertinent information is contained.That IS, unfortunately, a place where the Pathfinder RPG isn't that robust yet. The rules for full city stat blocks from the 3.5 DMG are, as far as I can tell, not open content—they're not in the SRD, and thus we can't really make use of them.
Really? That's... odd. WoTC can actually say that you can't use something so basic as that?
Really? That's... odd. WoTC can actually say that you can't use something so basic as that?
While the data itself may not be copyrightable, the way you present the data (i.e., the organization of the stat block) is copyrightable. So we're trying to find a way and place to present that data that doesn't ruffle any feathers.
Really? That's... odd. WoTC can actually say that you can't use something so basic as that?While the data itself may not be copyrightable, the way you present the data (i.e., the organization of the stat block) is copyrightable. So we're trying to find a way and place to present that data that doesn't ruffle any feathers.
Shouldn't be hard. Paizo's "presentation" has been superior to WOTC's pretty much across the board.
If WotC doesn't put something into open content, it belongs to them. I'm not a lawyer so maybe Paizo could find a loophole in that given it seems to be an issue with layout, but then there's the possibility of legal action, and Hasbro/WotC has far deeper pockets for lawyer's fees, whatever the actual legal merits of the dispute. Paizo is far better off working to avoid the whole issue.
Maybe we'll get an update to the book as of such time as the people at Paizo are happy with their own style of layout and information.
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Creative Director
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If WotC doesn't put something into open content, it belongs to them. I'm not a lawyer so maybe Paizo could find a loophole in that given it seems to be an issue with layout, but then there's the possibility of legal action, and Hasbro/WotC has far deeper pockets for lawyer's fees, whatever the actual legal merits of the dispute. Paizo is far better off working to avoid the whole issue.
Maybe we'll get an update to the book as of such time as the people at Paizo are happy with their own style of layout and information.
Presenting city stat blocks and rules like that is not something we can easily squeeze into an update of the Pathfinder RPG. It'd take a few pages; it does in the 3.5 DMG after all. There's just no room in the core RPG for it without, say removing something equally significant.
The Gamemastery Guide is the best place for it, and if we build the rules so that they're self-explanatory in the stat block itself we don't have to worry about reprinting those rules when we use them in other products after all.
Maybe we'll get an update to the book as of such time as the people at Paizo are happy with their own style of layout and information.Presenting city stat blocks and rules like that is not something we can easily squeeze into an update of the Pathfinder RPG. It'd take a few pages; it does in the 3.5 DMG after all. There's just no room in the core RPG for it without, say removing something equally significant.
The Gamemastery Guide is the best place for it, and if we build the rules so that they're self-explanatory in the stat block itself we don't have to worry about reprinting those rules when we use them in other products after all.
Actually, I was just hoping that maybe we'd get a web enhancement or blog entry for Cities of Golarion with the updated versions of your final city statblocks once you had your own system worked out to your satisfaction.
Thanks for the detailed explanation though.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Since Paizo already changed the way GP Limits work by making it into Base GP, that's one hurdle down. Other elements like alignment, population, size, government type, etc. seem like something that logic dictates a city statblock should have and, as such, will I'm sure be in Paizo's version. As it stands, the only things missing from their statblocks on the inside front cover of this book are race breakdowns and major NPCs since they include everything I mentioned above. And the NPCs can be determined by reading each city's article, so we're really only missing demographic information.
Since Paizo already changed the way GP Limits work by making it into Base GP, that's one hurdle down. Other elements like alignment, population, size, government type, etc. seem like something that logic dictates a city statblock should have and, as such, will I'm sure be in Paizo's version. As it stands, the only things missing from their statblocks on the inside front cover of this book are race breakdowns and major NPCs since they include everything I mentioned above. And the NPCs can be determined by reading each city's article, so we're really only missing demographic information.
Rules systems are NOT copyrightable, that is explicitly stated in the US Copyright laws. So all Paizo really needs to worry about is how they present the material, which is why I posted above that this shouldn't be a hard hurdle for Paizo to jump.
I received my shipping notification for Cities, now I am just waiting for the PDF DL to show.
I'va actually always thought giving a city an alignment was wierd, even single individuals don't conform to an alingment, the more real they get, the harder it is to categorise them as just one, so for a city this problem is many, many fold. A LG town might still have a thieves guild, a CE town artists or even some good people.
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Giving a city an alignment is just a tool for GMs to figure out the general tendencies in a city, not a specific alignment for all citizens within the city. It's a guideline for GMs to use in their game when portraying the average citizen. Of course a lot of citizens don't fall under that alignment but still, it's a nice tool in my opinion.
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Creative Director
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Yeah... it's a lot easier to say a city is lawful neutral than to say a city is populated by citizens who adhere to the law and there is not a lot of crime because the laws are strictly enforced and the rulers are more interested in maintaining these laws than they are in doing what's best for the people, but they DO make a safe place to live for the people.
Giving a city an alignment is a fancy, convenient, two-letter way to summarize that city's personality. It doesn't REPLACE details, but it does let the reader know what he's gonna be getting.
Reading through the PDF and am liking what I am reading! I am reading about the Executioner Maximilian Marley of Taldor right now!
A LG town might still have a thieves guild, a CE town artists or even some good people.
Well... yes. Why would you think otherwise?
Giving a city an alignment is a nice, simple, and concise two-letter method of showing the DM the population and leadership's tendencies. In other words, it's efficient and not wasteful. Two. Letters.
Alignment = a good thing for DMs.
As for the book - not a bad little book at all. Unfortunately, the operative word is "little". This book was far too short. (I'm sure Paizo can [and might even attempt to] give many, many reasons why it's too short, but they still won't change the fact that it's too short.)
I agree its too short. Plus the scale of the maps has me looking forward to real maps in the map pack, which I assume is an intentional set up.
Well the whole lack of the block of into about the city was the thing i was coming on to comment about. I loved the book but felt that missing really hurt. Even just a pop total would have helped.
The front inside cover gives us a map with the location of each city, it's Flag, Allegiance, Size, Form of Leadership, Alignment, Gold Piece Limit, and Population :)
And I am loving this book, I must say!
The rules for full city stat blocks from the 3.5 DMG are, as far as I can tell, not open content—they're not in the SRD, and thus we can't really make use of them. We CAN build new rules, but there wasn't enough room in the Pathfinder RPG to do that. This is something I hope that the Gamemastery Guide will address and fix by providing new guidelines and rules for things like that.
Just in case I'm the only brain-damaged gamer here, I wanted to mention my inability to differentiate between the two gold limits in the current 3.5e city stat block. I know one of them is for how much a PC can get for selling stuff *to* the city while the other is the limit on the most expensive item they can buy *from* the city, but I keep boggling on which one's which.
Just for me, could you look at alternate ways of presenting those so I can confidently give my poor players a consistent feeling of the fantasy economies?
So it does, didn't notice it. Wish it had been in each chapter though with the city but thats a minor issue as long as it is in the book somewhere.
Putting that in the entry with the cities would mean cutting another paragraph of content about the cities.
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I just got this.
Neat stuff;
A fort run by Asmodeans in Corentyn named 'Dhoffram Keep,' from which people never return. I have no idea if that is a shout-out to the torture-loving 'vengeance demon' D'Hoffryn from a certain TV show, but it made me laugh.
Ten Superstitions of Corentyn. I love this stuff!
In Ilizmagorti, mention of Kaneano 'shark-men' living in the surrounding seas (gosh, I'm not sure we need another aquatic race, but already, it's more interesting to me than sahuagin or, double yawn, locathah).
Mention of critters in the surrounding jungles, including Monkey Goblins!
Top Ten Drinks of Ilizmagorti. I'd pay right now for a Dark and Stormy, Half a Doubloon, Rusty Cutlass or Three Sheets, and, as someone who has tended bar, make a pretty mean Kiss of the Mantis myself, if that last unnamed ingredient is horseradish...
I wanted to like Nisroch more than I did. Due to the nature of the location, it's not well suited to game use, IMO, and the parts of the Kuthonite nation I was most interested in (their focus on unique shadow magics) didn't get much mention.
Sharina Legend-Singer is in Vigil! Ooh, yet another Superstar shout-out.
Love the idea of the Marks or Oaths, in Vigil. Very, very, very cool idea.
Ten Ways to Appease an Angry Ice Troll (warning, some untested, some will probably get you eaten)!
Love the Howling district in Whitethrone, where a powerful enchantment allows Winter Wolves to walk as men.
I would have wanted for more ice-magic or ice-fey themed stuff, or city secrets like theories about how the endless winter of Irrisen is maintained (artifact in the castle? powerful entity? runes carved into things and not to be defaced under pain of death?), but this isn't really the product for it.
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I read somewhere that there is a few feats for mounted characters in this one? is that accurate? if so, how much crunchy stuff does this book contain? (feats, items, spells)
The section on Vigil has three mounted combat feats. Indomitable Mount (help your mount make a save), Mounted Onslought (overrun more than one creature) and Wheeling Charge (turn during a charge).
Cassomir has two feats (Corsair of Taldor, Master Delver).
Nisroch has one feat (Endure Pain) and a new poison / drug (Heathensnuff).
Whitethrone has one feat (Ice Mage) and a new spell (Irrisen Mirror Sight).
Corentyn and Ilizmagorti, as far as I can see, don't have any new toys, so that's pretty much it for 'crunch.'
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Creative Director
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In Ilizmagorti, mention of Kaneano 'shark-men' living in the surrounding seas (gosh, I'm not sure we need another aquatic race, but already, it's more interesting to me than sahuagin or, double yawn, locathah).
Of course... they could be sahuagin... or shark cultists... or weresharks. They don't HAVE to be a new race (and I kind of agree that new races should be applied sparingly...).
Just a short question to all those who own CoG, read it or worked on it:
Does the chapter on Whitethrone contain stats or other crunchy bity on snow goblins, ice trolls, ice magic and such? In general how much crunch does it contain?
... Okay that make up to two questions! ; )
Just a short question to all those who own CoG, read it or worked on it:
Does the chapter on Whitethrone contain stats or other crunchy bity on snow goblins, ice trolls, ice magic and such? In general how much crunch does it contain?
... Okay that make up to two questions! ; )
And the second one gets answered a few posts upward. : D Missed it. Sry.
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Having just finished reading it, I must say that i enjoyed it immensely, from one end to the other.
My favourite was the Cheliax city, but all of it was fun, and gave me ideas. I definitely say, we need more products like this. Another one, and why not a campaign arc where PCs travel from one city to the next ?
Kudos to the authors.
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Ok, I finally found time reading this book.
I started with Ilizmagorti, and found a sentence, which immediately made me raise my eyebrows... (and sorry, if this has already come up here - I didn't found it) ...in the jungles surrounding the city one can find...monkey goblins?!?!
Are they already statted up somewhere?! How do they look like? Do they life in trees? Will a horde of those be a real threat? Do they use weapons? Can I have one as a familiar ;) ???
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Having just finished reading it, I must say that i enjoyed it immensely, from one end to the other.
My favourite was the Cheliax city, but all of it was fun, and gave me ideas. I definitely say, we need more products like this. Another one, and why not a campaign arc where PCs travel from one city to the next ?
Kudos to the authors.
Lost Cities of Golarion is the next book in this "line". Ancient lost settlements of bygone civilizations, yay !
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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My SO says that Monkey Goblins were statted up (or at least included) in one of the submissions in the Encounters round of the First RPG Superstar5.
They are indeed, per this delightful encounter by Maestro Rob McCreary.
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Ok, I finally found time reading this book.
I started with Ilizmagorti, and found a sentence, which immediately made me raise my eyebrows... (and sorry, if this has already come up here - I didn't found it) ...in the jungles surrounding the city one can find...monkey goblins?!?!
Are they already statted up somewhere?! How do they look like? Do they life in trees? Will a horde of those be a real threat? Do they use weapons? Can I have one as a familiar ;) ???
Yes, monkey goblins were originally introduced in the RPG Superstar contest. They're basically just normal goblins adapted for life in the jungle. They haven't been officially statted up for Golarion or Pathfinder, but in your game, you can just use normal goblins, maybe giving them a climb speed as well.
As for how dangerous they are, a horde of monkey goblins is about as dangerous as a horde of normal goblins, except they like to drop out of the trees and ambush people. And no, I don't think they'd make good familiars... ;)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The monkey goblins were originally just kind of a throwaway flavor text reference in Rob's entry for the country round that year, Iskandria, but people immediately noticed them and pounced on them as sounding like the perfectly fun little jungle creeps, and the fandom was highly gratified when Rob revisited them in the "design an encounter" round above.
I immediately had those brutal little jungle-nastys from Diablo2 in mind (can't remember their name)...
The jungle pygmies...
...dear god the pygmies...
*twitches*
+1 for Dungeons of Golarion ! (But please, nothing like that horrible Dungeon book from WotC that came out in the dying days of 3.5)You mean Dungeonscape? Which was written by Paizo's own lead designer Jason Bulmahn?
I kind of feel bad saying this but I thought Dungeonscape was one of the worst gaming products WotC put out and was something of a herald of the end times... But, that's just like, my opinion... man. :P Please note: I only flipped through it for half an hour at the book store so maybe I missed something...
The way I see it even good designers have bad days or products, I love Wolfgang Bauers stuff but so many things in Fortress of the Stone Giants had me scratching my head wondering "How the hell does this make sense?" (while I have many complaints about that modules the first and foremost: mummy-monk with harpy monk students guarding something that wasn't nearly worth the hassle of getting into it with a picture of it bound in a fashion that made it's stat-block make little to no sense at all >.<)
Sorry wolfgang, you're still one of my favorite designers evar...
*prepares to duck thrown objects*
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My favourite was the Cheliax city, but all of it was fun, and gave me ideas. I definitely say, we need more products like this. Another one, and why not a campaign arc where PCs travel from one city to the next ?
Kudos to the authors.
Well, isn't it only natural that a Chelish city is superior in every way? After all, we're the mightiest empire that has ever existed -- and will exist -- on Golarion? ;)