Level 9 Rogue with Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) eligible for Improved Familiar?


Rules Questions


Is a level 9 Rogue with Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) counted as a level 7 Sorceror for the purposes of unlocking Improved Familiar?

Sovereign Court

I would say no, but only due to very strict reading. You only count as a 7th level sorcerer for that power specifically. So you have the familiar a 7th level sorcerer would have. You do not have any Spellcasting levels, as required by the Improved Familiar feat.

As a DM I would allow it if you didn't have some terrible abuse planned for it.


Heck No.

It's clear you already have an existing feature, your familiar(ex) talent, that is based off of Wizard level; not soceror levels. So even if you could use the caster level granted by heritage it's not the right levels for the feature. Furthermore, the feats are pretty clear they don't even affect other sorceror features also.

Just wait till level 11 like all the other rogues.

Sovereign Court

That wouldn't work either. The advanced talent he would get at level 10 only gives him "effective" wizard levels for the purpose of quantifying his familiar. He still wouldn't have the arcane spellcasting levels for Improved Familiar.

I also don't see why a rogue who really wants a familiar wouldn't just spend the two feats to get it at 3rd level rather than spend 3 talents to get it at 10th.

The Exchange

Yes.

Eldritch heritage says you count as a Sorc -2 for the purposes of the bloodline.

The bloodline says you qualify as a wizard equal to your sorc level for the purposes of detemining the powers of your familiar. It says that regular wizard levels stack.

Improved Familiar says "When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil)."

RAW and RAI - I see no controversy.


yes, you have the arcane spellcasting levels for the specific purpose of having a familiar from whatever source that gave you the ability to have a familiar, those are the exact same levels required to determine the abilities of a normal familiar, and also count for getting an improved familiar.


cp wrote:

Yes.

Eldritch heritage says you count as a Sorc -2 for the purposes of the bloodline.

The bloodline says you qualify as a wizard equal to your sorc level for the purposes of detemining the powers of your familiar. It says that regular wizard levels stack.

Improved Familiar says "When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil)."

RAW and RAI - I see no controversy.

pretty much this.


Yep, totally legal.

Sovereign Court

You left out a lot of the text for Improved Familiar. You need three things to qualify:

1) Ability to summon a familiar - You have this through the bloodline, no argument.
2) Compatible Alignment - You need the check the table for this
3) Sufficient Level - Again check the table

Now if you look at the table it lists three headers:

1) Familiar
2) Alignment
3) Arcane Spellcasting Level

Sufficient level is clarified as Arcane Spellcasting Level. Said differently, that is the level at which you can cast Arcane spells. The bloodline feat does not give you a caster level. The level it provides is only to determine what stats your familiar has, as it improves with levels.

Would argue that he could take Scribe Scroll? It requires Caster level 1st. Of course not, because he doesn't have a caster level.

Eldritch Bloodline lets you take a pick a bloodline and determine it's benefit as if you were a level-2 Sorceror. It does not give Caster levels.


Improved Familiar is still using the Class Ability Arcane Bond/Familiar that is granted by Eldritch Heritage ("when choosing a familiar" is referencing using the Arcane Bond ability), it is just a modification of it. So Eldritch Heritage's line saying "For purposes of using [the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline], treat your sorcerer level as" still applies. When the Pre-Req says "sufficiently high level (see below)." that means sufficiently high level "When choosing a familiar", i.e. using the Familiar/Arcane Bond ability (which Eldritch Heritage gives you an effective Sorc level for). If it just said 'Prerequisite: Arcane Spellcaster Level 3' that wouldn't let Eldritch Heritage qualify, but since it says "(see below)" that means it is invoking the FUNCTIONALITY of the Feat, namely the 'choosing a familiar' part... which invokes the usage of the Arcane Bond/Familiar ability, which Eldritch Heritage applies to.

Sovereign Court

That's selective reading, Quandary. It works differently because it's in the body of the feat, not in the prereq line? I can't agree with that.

They wrote see below so that they could capture in a table that there are options at three different Arcane Spellcasting Level(s). Don't try to create some alternate connection just because they left the prereqs in a table.

Like I said before, I think a DM would be more than reasonable to extend the Improved Familiar feat to someone with the Eldritch Bloodline. But Improved Familiar was written back when there were only Wizards and Sorcerers with familiars. And it's restrictive of this edge case because no one had even imagined Eldritch Bloodline at the time. Who'd imagine a someone could be just a little bit sorcerer? Which is why I find it laughable that someone thinks this is RAI. No one intended this specific collection of feats adding up to this when Improved Familiar was written.


So not reading 'when choosing a familiar' (referencing usage of Arcane Bond) is NOT selective reading then?
The issue is NOT merely 'where' it is located, but WHAT specifically is being said:
Namely, the 'when choosing a familiar' part (which the entire table ties into)
is referencing using the Arcane Bond ability, which Eldritch Heritage applies to.
There is no CL requirement enunciated independent of the usage of the Arcane Bond ability.


You count as a CL-2 Sorcerer for the purpose of the bloodline ability, and the familiar bloodline ability states you count as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level concerning your familiar abilities. Improved familiar references your arcane caster level which for the purpose of your familiar is CL-2 izard levels.


I'm not sure if by RAW it would be possible.

But I don't see anything unbalanced by allowing it.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Level 9 Rogue with Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) eligible for Improved Familiar? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.