Would you say druids are overpowered?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Druids are both powerful and flexible. However, like other very flexible classes, they are also a class that requires a certain amount of system mastery in order to be effective. Druids builds can focus on several different capabilities and roles, but you can't excel in all of them at once. You have to understand your role going in and build to be good at it.


I more or less agree with the "Jack of all trades, master of none" opinions expressed here (where "Jack" means "pretty dang good at it"), but with this caveat:

Druids cannot equal dedicated role classes in any of those dedicated roles over the long haul, but druids CAN equal many of them for a single encounter, which is sometimes all that is needed.

For example, a druid will never have the sheer number of spells available to compete with a sorcerer for blasting. But for a single encounter a druid can be very close to as good. The same goes for healing, buffing, battlefield control, etc.

And the REAL power of the druid, imho, is that the same druid can do that for DIFFERENT roles in the same game day.

Shadow Lodge

Barry Armstrong wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
Barry Armstrong wrote:
6. Labeling ANYTHING as op because the "potential to do too much damage" exists is simply ridiculous. I can min/max or munchkin anything to stand out from the other players. But I choose not to.
I agree, to an extent. The power of a character is highly dependent on the specific build choices made. However, I do think that a class imposes some sort of power range on characters of that class, and that ideally the power ranges of all classes should be similar.

By "power range" do you mean the ability to pump out a certain number of pure damage points per round? Because if so, the classes will never be "balanced" in that way. Certain classes aren't designed around dealing damage. This is not an MMO, terms like "DPR" and "Action Economy" are there for the min/maxxers, munchkins, and optimizers to set a baseline for their particular build. NOT to be a rating scale of "This class sucks because it's only 7.3 DPR. Everyone should just play Barbarians because they can do 9.3 DPR."

Some, like a druid, have utility in mind with the potential to do decent damage with spells, decent damage in combat, or decent spellcasting ability. The balance comes in by strengthening one, you lessen the power of the others. He's a "hybrid".

Some, like a barbarian, have combat in mind with the potential to do ridiculous damage, but....how does he heal himself once the rage fades? Others, like a wizard, pump out spell damage, but what happens when they are silenced or involved in a fistfight? So he's a "specialist".

No, I'm not talking about power range, more like Koloktroni's "capability juice." You have to look at the roles that a class is generally expected to fill and how powerful they are in each of those roles. For example, rogues and bards are often used as skill characters. How many skill points do they get, how good is their class skill list, and what abilities do they get to improve skills (such as versatile performance and rogue talents)? Is there an obvious "better choice" for the skilled character role? You then look at the number of roles they can fill for the versatility/hybrid factor, and the extent to which optimizing in one role sacrifices the other capabilities. For example, a druid optimized for melee combat with no resources in scouting will still have a decent scouting option through Wild Shape. An optimized melee druid is probably going to lag behind an optimized barbarian for DPR, but that druid will have a handful of other useful abilities - for example, they can use a spell slot or two for emergency self-healing. So they're probably roughly even. It's a hard comparison to make, but I don't think it's quite accurate to say that because it's possible to optimize any class, we shouldn't be concerned with class balance.

Silver Crusade

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Druid summoning is weaker than wizard and cleric summoning, because the latter a) get far more spell-like ability access from their monsters and b) benefit from Paizo's MASSIVE buff to smite good/evil. A summoning character gets more benefit out of smite evil than a paladin does.

And look at the spells they get a level later. They're often the important ones, like dispel magic, or heal. The ones they get "early" (usually compared to clerics due to clerics not supposed to be good at those sorts of spells) tend to be direct damage type spells, like flame strike or (badly nerfed due to PF's changes to poison rules) Poison.

Then look at the spells they just plain don't get. Their teleportation options are ery limited; they get no planar travel spells like Plane Shift at all. Other than Baleful Polymorph, a wonderful exception, they tend to lag behind badly on save or suck/die. Their buff spells are extremely lackluster, other than some animal-based buffs. In the abjuration department, critical for shutting down other spellcasters (the most dangerous type of foe you can face, other than dragons and outsiders....who often are casters in their own right.... and higher-than-your-CR monsters), nearly everything they get at all is delayed a level or simply doesn't exist. Antimagic Field? Dimensional Anchor/Lock? Nope, sorry. Look elsewhere. Oh, and Enervation to nuke CL would be nice, too....

In short, their list is severely lacking in nearly all of the categories of the most powerful/important spells. Even in battlefield control, which IS one of their strengths, many of thier BFC spells are situational based on terrain (like Entangle and Plant Growth). Which is why I said the druid is excellent at bullying the weaker classes (noncasters) with their combination of self-buffing polymorph, free meat shield class feature (companion), and mix of summoning, BFC, and direct damage spells, but terrible for taking on a mage. Therefore, their spell list is weaker than the other primary casters,...

I agree. I also find that the abilities and spells really fit the class. I'm glad their spells come with that nature vibe that makes them situational.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Oh, and I missed this earlier:

Ragnarok Aeon wrote:
They can be stupid OP when the GM doesn't pay attention though, forgetting the fact that it's a move action using the handle animal skill to control an animal companion...

It's only a move action to push an animal companion to perform a trick they don't know.

Animal Companion Rules wrote:
A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill.

So if the AC knows the "attack" trick...

Handle Animal - Attack wrote:
The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able.

...you can direct it to attack a particular enemy as a free action.


^that's good news I was about to trip out


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I more or less agree with the "Jack of all trades, master of none" opinions expressed here (where "Jack" means "pretty dang good at it"), but with this caveat:

Druids cannot equal dedicated role classes in any of those dedicated roles over the long haul, but druids CAN equal many of them for a single encounter, which is sometimes all that is needed.

For example, a druid will never have the sheer number of spells available to compete with a sorcerer for blasting. But for a single encounter a druid can be very close to as good. The same goes for healing, buffing, battlefield control, etc.

And the REAL power of the druid, imho, is that the same druid can do that for DIFFERENT roles in the same game day.

shallowsoul wrote:
I agree. I also find that the abilities and spells really fit the class. I'm glad their spells come with that nature vibe that makes them situational.

.^

/.\
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I agree with both of those posts.

I really do rather like druid, it is the only cating class I count among my favorites, I tend to prefer martial artist and skirmisher non-casters. Druid is one of the best designed classes in both 3.5 and PF, and a shining example of how to marry fluff with mechanics successfully.

It just annoys me when people try to claim their spell list is equally powerful to the other primary casters'. It's not. I'm not complaining about it, I'm quite happy with the power level of the druid. The annoyance is that, firstly... these people are wrong and misleading others, and secondly, they often then go on to claim, "well, since they have the casting of clerics and wizards and also a pet and wildshape, clearly they're the most overpowered class" and.... that is just infuriating.

Grand Lodge

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Druid summoning is weaker than wizard and cleric summoning, because the latter a) get far more spell-like ability access from their monsters and b) benefit from Paizo's MASSIVE buff to smite good/evil. A summoning character gets more benefit out of smite evil than a paladin does.

And look at the spells they get a level later. They're often the important ones, like dispel magic, or heal. The ones they get "early" (usually compared to clerics due to clerics not supposed to be good at those sorts of spells) tend to be direct damage type spells, like flame strike or (badly nerfed due to PF's changes to poison rules) Poison.

Then look at the spells they just plain don't get. Their teleportation options are ery limited; they get no planar travel spells like Plane Shift at all. Other than Baleful Polymorph, a wonderful exception, they tend to lag behind badly on save or suck/die. Their buff spells are extremely lackluster, other than some animal-based buffs. In the abjuration department, critical for shutting down other spellcasters (the most dangerous type of foe you can face, other than dragons and outsiders....who often are casters in their own right.... and higher-than-your-CR monsters), nearly everything they get at all is delayed a level or simply doesn't exist. Antimagic Field? Dimensional Anchor/Lock? Nope, sorry. Look elsewhere. Oh, and Enervation to nuke CL would be nice, too....

In short, their list is severely lacking in nearly all of the categories of the most powerful/important spells. Even in battlefield control, which IS one of their strengths, many of thier BFC spells are situational based on terrain (like Entangle and Plant Growth). Which is why I said the druid is excellent at bullying the weaker classes (noncasters) with their combination of self-buffing polymorph, free meat shield class feature (companion), and mix of summoning, BFC, and direct damage spells, but terrible for taking on a mage. Therefore, their spell list is weaker than the other primary casters,...

Yes the druid's summons lack the smite abilities of the summon monsters and they do lack spell casting summon options as well. That said, the druid actually never has to memorize a single summons to use it. If your excellent at figuring out what is to come...then yes wizards and cleric summons is superior...I find that to be almost never the case however.

And you need planar travel spells because? Sorry, that is about as effective as AD assertion that you need wish/mircle to be top teir caster because the dev's fluff said so. I just as easily can say that the other casters don't have an hour/level summons (changestaff)so they should be a lower teir just as easily.

Dealing with casters...well casters have bad fort saves...I find swarms to be wonderful at dealing with enemy casters. They can't do much when they have no standard actions. Creeping doom is a pretty nice caster shutdown. It is a 7th level spell tho. The lower level swarms can do an okayish job at the levels you get them tho. And AMF kills YOUR magic as well...so unless your an EK, AMF is just as bad for you as it is for the other guy. Enervate is nice...actually great caster shutdown...but the cleric doesn't get that one...so are clerics teir two casters as well?

No, not a lot of their BC spells are terrain dependant. Fog spells? Sleet storm? Ice storm? Wall spells? Yes entangle is...but that is just ONE spell and you have oh so much other options when that one isn't.

Their delayed spells aren't as bad as you make it to be. Dispel is one behind but greater dispel is not. Heal yes yes...but seriously if you didn't delay the heal for druids and witches, you would kinda step on the cleric's toes as that spell is kinda their signature spell. They get deathward (you have no idea how many NPCs my wizard would slaughter for access to deathward) a level behind as well...but better then not at all. They get stoneskin a level behind as well (take a wild guess what my clerics would do for that spell...yes yes earth domain gets it as a domain spell...at spell level 6)...but resist and prot from elements are on cue. Their magic attack boost spell is on cue at 1 and 3 like the wizard. The stat boost are on cue.

Which leads to buffs...They have two of the most wanted buffs in the game as one caster. Deathward and stoneskin. Barkskin is also very much a wanted spell. They have all the basic stat boost, resist/prot elemenents, boost AC and to hit and damage as well. So other then the fact that they don't have haste (which the cleric is lacking as well) I fail to see this whole they have lackluster buffs.

And yes, we all agree that their SoS/SoD list is pretty dang small. Wow...sorry that they can't do everything with their spell...oh wait that is true of the wizard spellist as well since they can't heal (okay okay they have infernal healing...but you know what I mean).


Knowing what are you going to encounter is in real game, as far as my experience goes, very unlikely. Druid can transform and fly / summon / crawl / climb / dig according to the situation without any spell prepared, they can prepare a variety of spells and spontaneously substitute them with a summon, choosing a different creature according to what is needed.

I think druids are a very good and adabtable class.
OP? I played once with a friend which knows the game rolling an elf druid and a new player with a human barbarian; the armored wolf, animal companion of the druid, was outstanding the barbarian in combat, not to mention the spells and arrows coming from the elf. That time you could say druid was overpowered.


I'd like to see the builds that end up with an AC wolf outdamaging a barbarian...


Cold Napalm wrote:
Damage wise...they are pretty middle of the road. Fighters and barbs can do more (nothing says pain like a fighter or barb in giantform 2). Clerics and magus and alchemists can burst for WAY more. Rangers vs favored enemy is pretty above as well and a paladin vs intended tagerts makes druis weep at the numbers they generate. What makes the druid powerful is that they have a full 20 levels of full casting. All that other stuff is just icing on the cake that makes them a cut above the other full casters.

Cold Napalm: How are you getting your fighter or barb in giantform 2 in the first place?

Grand Lodge

Jakynth wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
Damage wise...they are pretty middle of the road. Fighters and barbs can do more (nothing says pain like a fighter or barb in giantform 2). Clerics and magus and alchemists can burst for WAY more. Rangers vs favored enemy is pretty above as well and a paladin vs intended tagerts makes druis weep at the numbers they generate. What makes the druid powerful is that they have a full 20 levels of full casting. All that other stuff is just icing on the cake that makes them a cut above the other full casters.

Cold Napalm: How are you getting your fighter or barb in giantform 2 in the first place?

UMD is your friend. Then make nice with the party wizard for your scrolls and/or staff.


I really like Koloktroni's cup metaphor.

Semi-seriously:

Cold Napalm wrote:
And AMF kills YOUR magic as well...so unless your an EK, AMF is just as bad for you as it is for the other guy

Double dip AA, fire antimagic field arrows.

Cold Napalm wrote:
Wow...sorry that they can't do everything with their spell...oh wait that is true of the wizard spellist as well since they can't heal

That is what Summon Monster is for.

Grand Lodge

Aioran wrote:

I really like Koloktroni's cup metaphor.

Semi-seriously:

Cold Napalm wrote:
And AMF kills YOUR magic as well...so unless your an EK, AMF is just as bad for you as it is for the other guy

Double dip AA, fire antimagic field arrows.

Cold Napalm wrote:
Wow...sorry that they can't do everything with their spell...oh wait that is true of the wizard spellist as well since they can't heal
That is what Summon Monster is for.

Okay fine AA and EK then...but otherwise still screwed.

Wait...what summone monster casts heal?!?

Grand Lodge

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
LOL, your insults would have more sting if you could spell.
Wow...way to jump the shark. Picking on spelling and grammer is the last resort of those who have nothing actually witty or worthwhile to say. I thought you were done...so go away.

LOL, man you are certainly full of yourself aren't you? I must have hit a nerve.

Go on with your quest to "prove" the druid spell list is equal to wizard or cleric. It's sort of fascinating to watch, like a train wreck in slow motion.

So this is you being done then? Man you really can't even seem to do the simpliest of tasks if you don't get the concept of being done means you don't reply to ME...at ALL. You expect people to take you seriously when you can't even get a simple concept like that right...yeah...good luck with that.
... another car jumps the track...

Still failing at being done I see...


Cold Napalm wrote:
Wait...what summone monster casts heal?!?

Astral Deva


Ok, first of all, I think I need to state something: I do not think the druid's spell list is "bad." I merely think it is noticeably less good than the wiz/sorc and cleric lists. Thre's no shame in that, that's like saying your nation doesn't have nearly as many nuclear weapons as the United States. You could still in fact have quite a few of them. You just lose the comparison to the top contender.

Again, this thread is built upon the extremely flawed "druid casting = wiz or cleric casting + other good stuff, ergo, druid = broken." And that is wrong. Their spell list is weaker in exchange for the other stuff. They trade sheer power for versatility, which is awesome. But the game rewards specialization and spellcasting is the most powerful thing a PC can do, so being behind in the casting department does make them a bit weaker than the other primary casters. Not necessarily enough to drop them to "tier 2", though. I do not think they are tier 2, just the bottom of tier 1. I really don't like the tier 1 and 2 differences anyway and would merge them together, myself...

Cold Napalm wrote:
Yes the druid's summons lack the smite abilities of the summon monsters and they do lack spell casting summon options as well. That said, the druid actually never has to memorize a single summons to use it. If your excellent at figuring out what is to come...then yes wizards and cleric summons is superior...I find that to be almost never the case however.

That's a class feature, unrelated to the spells themselves. And does not make them more powerful spells, just more versatile. As I said above. In any case, clerics can drop spells for healing as needed, which is about as useful, and wizards can leave slots open to fill later, which helps a lot with the guessing game.

Cold Napalm wrote:
And you need planar travel spells because? Sorry, that is about as effective as AD assertion that you need wish/mircle to be top teir caster because the dev's fluff said so. I just as easily can say that the other casters don't have an hour/level summons (changestaff)so they should be a lower teir just as easily.

If you lack planar travel spells, it becomes a lot harder to chase the enemy mage across planes, or to deal with him assaulting you from the ethereal plane and so forth. It is a major hole in their anti-caster arsenal.

Cold Napalm wrote:
Dealing with casters...well casters have bad fort saves...I find swarms to be wonderful at dealing with enemy casters. They can't do much when they have no standard actions. Creeping doom is a pretty nice caster shutdown. It is a 7th level spell tho. The lower level swarms can do an okayish job at the levels you get them tho. And AMF kills YOUR magic as well...so unless your an EK, AMF is just as bad for you as it is for the other guy. Enervate is nice...actually great caster shutdown...but the cleric doesn't get that one...so are clerics teir two casters as well?

Casters do not have bad fort saves. Cleric and Druid, for starters, get good base saves. The arcanists treat Con as their 2nd most important stat (or a VERY close 3rd after dex), so they also tend to have decent (not great, but decent) fort saves.

Swarm DCs are tiny, they won't distract/disrupt a caster. By the time you have Creeping Doom, the wiz is using Overland Flight and the Cleric is Air Walking. It's not even a threat.

Yes, AMF kills your magic. The point is, presumably, you're a better fighter than the other guy (cleric, or EK wizard or sorc), OR you outnumber the enemy caster and can deal with mutually assured obsolesence because it still leaves your friends open to smash his head in.

Cleric can get Enervation from domains and has Energy Drain, and also has the tools to gain control of undead with level drain abilities if evil. In any case, cleric has such a large amount of anti-caster abjurations (some at lower level than the wizard!) that missing out on level draining spells doesn't single-handedly make his spell list suck against casters.

Cold Napalm wrote:
No, not a lot of their BC spells are terrain dependant. Fog spells? Sleet storm? Ice storm? Wall spells? Yes entangle is...but that is just ONE spell and you have oh so much other options when that one isn't.

A good portion of their unique ones and most powerful are. But fine, I concede that point. BFC is one of their strengths, no dispute.

Cold Napalm wrote:
Their delayed spells aren't as bad as you make it to be. Dispel is one behind but greater dispel is not. Heal yes yes...but seriously if you didn't delay the heal for druids and witches, you would kinda step on the cleric's toes as that spell is kinda their signature spell. They get deathward (you have no idea how many NPCs my wizard would slaughter for access to deathward) a level behind as well...but better then not at all. They get stoneskin a level behind as well (take a wild guess what my clerics would do for that spell...yes yes earth domain gets it as a domain spell...at spell level 6)...but resist and prot from elements are on cue. Their magic attack boost spell is on cue at 1 and 3 like the wizard. The stat boost are on cue.

It's not about quantity, it's about which spells they're not getting on cue. I mean, they even get Wall of Stone later than all the other classes, even though it's earth-based and BFC....never understood that....

Cold Napalm wrote:
Which leads to buffs...They have two of the most wanted buffs in the game as one caster. Deathward and stoneskin. Barkskin is also very much a wanted spell. They have all the basic stat boost, resist/prot elemenents, boost AC and to hit and damage as well. So other then the fact that they don't have haste (which the cleric is lacking as well) I fail to see this whole they have lackluster buffs.

But they lack Fly, Haste, and many of the other very powerful and constantly useful buffs everyone wants. Barkskin is nice, but is relaced with a permanent magic item if needed. Deathward I've found IME to be very hard to use, due to the min/level duration. If only it had a communal version, at least it'd be decent as an in-combat buff.

Cleric lacks haste, but has Blessing of Fervor, which is about as good.

Cold Napalm wrote:
And yes, we all agree that their SoS/SoD list is pretty dang small. Wow...sorry that they can't do everything with their spell...oh wait that is true of the wizard spellist as well since they can't heal (okay okay they have infernal healing...but you know what I mean).

Aside from Astral Deva mentioned, the summon list also provides them w/ Bralani Azata at SM 5 and Lillend at SM 6, both of which can do healing, just not the Heal spell itself.

And not being able to heal is not nearly as much a loss as not having a good offensive arsenal of win spells is.


The wolf had better AC and was really useful in combat, hitting and tripping around while taking many foes attention on him and survived... the barbarian was a new player, had 16 strength and could not really make the difference. I'm not saying it's general experience, but on the other hand, something can be 'overpowered' but compared to what? Roleplay as my experience goes is more a matter of solving situations and adapt to what you encounter!

Grand Lodge

Aioran wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
Wait...what summone monster casts heal?!?

Astral Deva

Wow...they get heal oncer per day...good to know for the future. Not sure how useful that is tho...burning a 9th level spell to cast heal once. I guess it never occured to look for heal on summons past summon monster 7 as by then UMD and scrolls of heal are used in most of my games for people who don't have heal on a spell list and need one RIGHT now. Then again, with the usage of UMD and scrolls, I suppose spell list just become money savers :P .

Grand Lodge

StreamOfTheSky wrote:
That's a class feature, unrelated to the spells themselves. And does not make them more powerful spells, just more versatile. As I said above. In any case, clerics can drop spells for healing as needed, which is about as useful, and wizards can leave slots open to fill later, which helps a lot with the guessing game.

I don't buy that the spont curing equals spont summons. The cure spells become woefully insufficent for combat at mid/high levels and you can't spont cast heal (the useful one). Summon natures ally however is relivant at all levels. In between combat, you should be using infernal healing wands or CLW wands (for those wounds that infernal healing can not remove).

Quote:
If you lack planar travel spells, it becomes a lot harder to chase the enemy mage across planes, or to deal with him assaulting you from the ethereal plane and so forth. It is a major hole in their anti-caster arsenal.

How is the enemy caster assaulting from the ethereal plane? Other then to go incorporeal...which any magical damage can deal with? Etheral jaunt lets YOU get affected by force effect but not the other way around. And if an enemy caster plane shifts away...how is that any different from teleporting away (which druids can do with tree stride, transport via plant and word of recall). Chasing them down at that point doesn't JUST involve casting a teleport/plane shift spell...it involves doing a quest to get the location of the place. How easy are fortess to assault in your game? In mine, even finding them is a quest...and to assault one...well that is an entire adventure arc.

But they lack Fly, Haste, and many of the other very powerful and constantly useful buffs everyone wants. Barkskin is nice, but is relaced with a permanent magic item if needed. Deathward I've found IME to be very hard to use, due to the min/level duration. If only it had a communal version, at least it'd be decent as an in-combat buff.

The do NOT lack fly...they have air walk which is effectively fly...use land speed and not have a need of a skill for anything. The amulet is nice...but unless you have custom magical items in your game, there are a LOT of other amulets you may wish to use instead. Most casual groups do not use custom magic items as the magical item creation guideline is pretty borked and you need experience to balance them out as per the first part of the guideline (balance to existing item first). Deathward with 1 min/level I find to have been not much an issue...but I guess YMMV. AP wise, most of the dungeon don't eat up your time in the exploration part very much so you can run through the whole thing within the ~10 min time assuming you don't search every room as you go and you clear out then go back to loot. Haste I already conceeded on.

Quote:

Casters do not have bad fort saves. Cleric and Druid, for starters, get good base saves. The arcanists treat Con as their 2nd most important stat (or a VERY close 3rd after dex), so they also tend to have decent (not great, but decent) fort saves.

Swarm DCs are tiny, they won't distract/disrupt a caster. By the time you have Creeping Doom, the wiz is using Overland Flight and the Cleric is Air Walking. It's not even a threat.

Yes, AMF kills your magic. The point is, presumably, you're a better fighter than the other guy (cleric, or EK wizard or sorc), OR you outnumber the enemy caster and can deal with mutually assured obsolesence because it still leaves your friends open to smash his head in.

Cleric can get Enervation from domains and has Energy Drain, and also has the tools to gain control of undead with level drain abilities if evil. In any case, cleric has such a large amount of anti-caster abjurations (some at lower level than the wizard!) that missing out on level draining spells doesn't single-handedly make his spell list suck against casters.

Well I find the swarms distract about 50% of the time vs casters at when you first get summon swarm. A bit less vs the divines...but still, not too bad. Creeping doom can be negated with flight...but that can be dealt with by other means...like say summon roc that grapples (+29 CMD...lets see that DC39+spell level concentratin check).

Yes if there is a lone caster then you can AMF and just wail away at the poor deluded fool...but let us not assume such bad encounter design. If you outpower the enemies where the AMF makes sense, you really don't need it in the first place. That is a waste of a high level spell really at that point. If your doing this VS a none mook caster and they don't have the sense to move out of the effects of your AMF...which is tiny and then kill the rest of the party, your not playing very intelligently. You could in theory if you had a wizard or druid go after you pop up an AMF use a wall spell to trap you and the enemy caster in place and hope for the best that you did not miscalulate your chances. Or do what my EK does...which is contingency wall cube...then AMF...then slaughter the poor guy as I am an EK. But that trick really only works for a build that is almost unplayably bad for several levels and never exactly a powerhouse. You just get a neat trick here and there. In anycase, the AMF is only really an option in VERY limited situations.

The loss domain...once again, if you have to be a specific thing (like an EK for AMF) to use it...not exactly generally useful now is it?

Quote:
t's not about quantity, it's about which spells they're not getting on cue. I mean, they even get Wall of Stone later than all the other classes, even though it's earth-based and BFC....never understood that....

Yeah the stone wall one makes me go WTF too. Like I said, the level delay never really was in issue in games. Then again, if you MC, you suffer a LOT worse and there are still people who MC casters in most casual games I am aware of. Then again, stoneshape at spell level 3 (which the cleric gets at that level too...but that is also a WTH issue with me too).

Quote:
Aside from Astral Deva mentioned, the summon list also provides them w/ Bralani Azata at SM 5 and Lillend at SM 6, both of which can do healing, just not the Heal spell itself.

By the time you can summon these, those healing spells are of little combat usage...as in nigh useless. Out of combat, why aren't you using infernal heal scrolls/wands?

Silver Crusade

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Can the Druid do what it was designed to do?

Answer: Yes it can.

Who cares about Wizards versus Druids? People pick Druids because they want to play a Druid, people pick Wizards because they want to play Wizards.

Nuff said.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Druid summoning is weaker than wizard and cleric summoning, because the latter a) get far more spell-like ability access from their monsters and b) benefit from Paizo's MASSIVE buff to smite good/evil. A summoning character gets more benefit out of smite evil than a paladin does.

A little bit of a nit pick, a Celestial/Fiendish Smite is not the same as a Paladin's Smite.

James Jacobs wrote:
Adam Ashworth wrote:

I've run a search for all of your answers in regards to Celestial Servant - thanks for answering them all, those responses cleared up a lot for me.

A couple things that are ambiguous that haven't been asked yet - for the Celestial template, it grants "Smite Evil" and gives a very condensed description of what that does. Is this paraphrasing the Paladin's Smite Evil ability and is meant to act exactly like that, or is this a whole different same named Smite Evil that only adds Charisma to attack and HD to damage, without the DR bypassing and one time 2xHD bonus damage vs undead/evil dragons/evil outsiders and the Charisma to AC bonus of the Paladin ability?

Also, from the Celestial template, how do you apply the SR - it's supposed to be CR+5, but animal companions don't have a CR. Is it effective druid level (potentially modified by Boon Companion/Huntmaster), the companion's HD, or something else?

A paladin's ability to smite evil is a different ability than a celestial creature's ability to smite evil, and they thus should NOT be treated as the same power. The paladin's is better. ALL a celestial creature's smite ability grants is a bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. Nothing else.

For animal companions, use the CR of the animal companion's master, which is always Level –1.

A Paladin's gets far more out of Smite than a summoned creature does. Many summoned creatures don't have a Charisma to be proud of, but the damage is helpful at least. It doesn't go through DR or any of the special things a Paladin's Smite does.

The Exchange

Druids:

are 3/4 bab.
have wildshape
are castors

The same thing that makes them versatile also contributes to them not being overpowered.

If a druid concentrates states for spell casting - his stats will not support useful wildshaping.

Spreading his stats, he will never compete with the spells / day or DC's of top flight casters.

If he wants to cast and wildshape - he needs to invest feat to do it while wildshaped. This puts him behind the feat tree of a pure caster as well.

Specialization works...


Interesting.

The damage bonus is the main boon, obviously the cha to attack is seldom helpful. Not getting an AC boost doesn't matter, not ignoring DR is the biggest drop in power from what I thought summons got.

Still a huge boost. A summon monster w/ pounce and multiple attacks is just really nasty.


cp wrote:

Druids:

are 3/4 bab.
have wildshape
are castors

The same thing that makes them versatile also contributes to them not being overpowered.

If a druid concentrates states for spell casting - his stats will not support useful wildshaping.

Spreading his stats, he will never compete with the spells / day or DC's of top flight casters.

If he wants to cast and wildshape - he needs to invest feat to do it while wildshaped. This puts him behind the feat tree of a pure caster as well.

Specialization works...

You forgot to factor in the druid's animal companion. Even a "weak" druid can enhance their animal companion to become a melee force of nature. Add magical barding and an amulet of natural armor for permanent armor class boost, and feed the AC a potion of shield for a quick +4 on top of that. Instant tank.

Shadow Lodge

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Adamantine Dragon wrote:
...and feed the AC a potion of shield for a quick +4 on top of that.

No such thing. Shield is a Personal-range spell. They can't be made into potions.

Creating Potions wrote:
The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

(Source)

Otherwise valid point, though the animal companion prevents the caster specialist from picking up domain spells, so a caster druid with an AC isn't quite optimized.

Assistant Software Developer

I removed some posts. Flag it and move on, please.


I actually have no idea what debates Adamantine Dragon is referring to in his post about our vigorous debates. My point was simply that there existing two polar opposite threads about druids didn't mean that the forums couldn't make up their mind :)

I was reminded of that one "Why would anyone play a summoner when you could play a druid?" thread though. That was fun.


Weirdo wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
...and feed the AC a potion of shield for a quick +4 on top of that.

No such thing. Shield is a Personal-range spell. They can't be made into potions.

Creating Potions wrote:
The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

(Source)

Otherwise valid point, though the animal companion prevents the caster specialist from picking up domain spells, so a caster druid with an AC isn't quite optimized.

shield can't be made into a potion

but it can be made into an elixir according to the GMG examples. which was merely done to let them violate the potion rules.

more reason that you should take craft wondrous item and not brew potion.


Hi All,

I'm reviving this post as it seems like the best place for this. I have a specific example where a druid seems a bit overpowered in terms of DPR. We've been playign a campaign and we're just up to level 4. My Druid has a +2 Scythe, and I have a bear animal companian. My strength is now at 18. So I'm hitting at something like +9 and the bear has 3 attached +9/+8/+8 I think. With a lot of monsters, we make 2 or 3 of the 4 attacks on average, and the damage is 2d4+8 for the sycthe, and the bear is 1d6+5 for bite and 1d4+5 for claws. At level 3 is was 1d4+3 and 1d3+3. The bear claims 50% of the kills in our 4 person party.

Our paladin has a +1 longsword with flame tounge once a day. If he hits, its 1d8+5 damage. So how can we increase the paladin to match my Druids DPR?


Probably would've worked better in you own post rather than one from 2012. The subject is about druids being overpowered after all.

Well, the paladin could try using a 2 handed weapon. At 5th he gets an upgrade with divine bond. The paladin should also have better to hit from full BAB and quickly outrace you there, and better AC, and swift healing, and swift spells to buff, and... Damage is more than just the flat damage you do in a single attack. At 6th he gets an iterative. If he's oath of vengeance he may use smite more often, which should make a big difference. At later levels your melee damage will really shrink without buffs and its likely you'll switch to wild shape, which changes things radically.


Thanks, makes sense to me.


Quote:
But they lack fly...

Is there any self respecting caster focused Druid of level 6 or above who doesn't spend their entire time floating around as an Air Elemental?

Also various Druid archetypes get standard action cast spontaneous summons. Getting your minions on the board on your turn and able to act immediately is far better than waiting a round and potentially getting interrupted.

Some Clerics get to do this as well but only with a very limited number of summons.


RAW druid are most op class in the game.

Silver Crusade

I think druids are significantly more powerful than summoners, and if summoners are considered OP, well then it follows......

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