Too much Pathfinder? Is it possible?


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Personally, I'm OK with the rate of releases, but I do feel for those who get into the game now. To purchase the back catalogue has reached a point where it's likely not feasible for most people.

The good news is that the rules are all available for free online, so those that want to buy can, but those that can't afford it can still get rules content to add to their games.

The bad news is for those who fall in love with Golarion, as that stuff is NOT available for free and catching up is costly.


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TOZ wrote:
I bought way more books as a player than I have as a DM.

I have never GM'ed.

Ever.

I am an anomaly.

EDIT: Of course, I've been told I am an anomaly on a great many things ... which shall not be discussed here ...

Grand Lodge

There can never be too much :)

"Don't quote me on that"


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Slow exposure for me. Very interested in setting material, regional books, bestiary, monsters revisited (smashing stuff). The central core book, I don't use it. Lot of the new rule books are OP for what I am running.


I'm looking forward to Ultimate Equipment, but after that there are only a few setting neutral things I can think of that wouldn't feel like bloat:

A "Rules Compendium". All crunch, better organized for reference then the core rule book or even the PRD, with content from APG and maybe UM and UC, all indexed together.

Epic Rules of some sort.


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I don't mind the pace, but I think that editing and rules issues are starting to rise. The Golarian specific books pace is fine as it is and are what I'm mostly picking up now. I also agree that game add ons are a great thing as they add to a game and don't alter the power curve with every release.

"Core" books are starting to bother me though. Core and APG were extremely well put together and while they have some balance/editing issues, they are few. Since then, "Core" books have continually been of lower quality in my opinion. Ultimate Magic had a number of balance and editing issues and Ultimate Combat took it a step further with poorly written archetypes and a complete shattering of game balance. UC is still an amazing book and better than what the majority of RPG companies put out, but was not at the level I expected.

There needs to be more beta testing with power gamers and people who are truly good at designing weird characters and "abusing" the rules. Editing needs to be near perfect in core books. I know that the DM has the power to change anything, but there are some things that a DM shouldn't have to change. I feel frustrated having to ban or alter half of a "core" book because my players find broken combo's within 24 hours of a book being release. When Pathfinder launched, Paizo had done an amazing job of limiting the "dipping" that was rampant in 3.0 and 3.5. I am starting to see this done constantly in builds again though and this saddens me greatly.

I love Pathfinder and it is my preferred gaming system and Golarian is an amazing setting. I can't get enough of the region books and the history of the world. I would like more focus on books with that content and less on rules except when extremely well thought out and tested.

Silver Crusade

You know what? I'd love to see some of the earlier APs that were 3.5-style to be converted (a la Rise of the Runelords). Crimson Throne is fun to run, but a bit of a hassle to convert with my current free time of close to nil.

Can I sign up for the monthly Freetime subscription? ;)


I'm with xarthos.

There was enough good in UM and UC that I'm glad they happened, but enough problems to make me nervous about what the future holds.

Sovereign Court

Nymian Harthing wrote:

You know what? I'd love to see some of the earlier APs that were 3.5-style to be converted (a la Rise of the Runelords). Crimson Throne is fun to run, but a bit of a hassle to convert with my current free time of close to nil.

Can I sign up for the monthly Freetime subscription? ;)

Conversions already done!

We have an ace community, always worth searching/asking for stuff like this.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

At this point I would say NO, never enough.

I too am overwhelmed with the sheer amount of material but its fun! It's interesting to hear that veterans are as well since I JUST discovered them (2012) so it's all new to me. I am just getting back into this (as a collector until the kids get older) after many years off. I've left Wizards of the Coast behind for my new love of Pathfinder.

Like many have said, now I just need more time! Nonetheless, I would love more options.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
And while we're doing more Pathfinder Tales, we're not doing Planet Stories anymore.

I realize that this probably won't get an official answer anytime soon, but I wanted to make sure. Does this mean you won't be doing any Planet Stories at all in the future?

I thought it was one of the best series you did and really got me interested in some authors I haven't read or heard of in years (if at all). Sorry to distract from the thread discussion.


I would like to see them continue to release AP's, and setting-specific material at the rate they are, but slow down on core hardbacks to avoid bloat.

There's no reason they can't include lots of player options, feats, golarion specific prestige classes and the like in setting books for people who want that.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Alex Martin wrote:
Does this mean you won't be doing any Planet Stories at all in the future?

We have no current plans (which is not necessarily the same as "won't at all"). See here for details.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Thanks for the update, Vic. I appreciate you taking the time to clarify.


I would prefer fewer books as well but only if the remaining ones get bigger. Most of the time, when I read a book in the Campaign Setting line, I feel like there is a lot of stuff that is not in there that I would really like to see.

Dark Archive

Overwhelmed (and turned off) by the amount of player support items and I am underwhelmed on the DM support material.

Rant: Warning, not for fanboys:
I cancelled all my subscriptions mid-way through the Jade Regent since the latter half of the AP's material would never be used in my game. I was having some financial issues due to medical bills so the timing worked out. Without the AP subscription all the prices for my other subs would have gone up so the decision to dump those was made much easier. Finances are better (just dropped 300 on the RA kickstarter) but now I am finding it increasingly difficult to justify me re-upping my old sub due to content offering.

I think there has been little support on the DM side of the screen from this company.
I don't consider decks of cards, flip-maps or randomized mini's as support, just tools. Alternate rules, guides and how-to's (creature design, item creation, play style support) and game design philosophy are DM/game support. Some of the APs are good and if Paizo was just a adventure company none of my concerns would be valid since I wouldn't be looking to then to produce anything but modules for a system. They are in fact a game company with their own set of core rules and supporting products so I do believe that my concerns are valid.

------------

I do think that in some cases the tools (flip-maps) make things easier as a visual aid for the group, but I don’t consider that DM support (just like I wouldn't consider the VTT or dice as DM support, but more of a game facilitator).

In the case of other tools being pushed – say randomized minis, I consider them a detriment and very anti-DM. You know, they person who most likely already spends the most money in the group?

The last full (and exclusive) DM support core book from Paizo was in 2010 (GMG). The annual bestiaries and pseudo -bestiaries (revised line) add more options for creatures but pure DM resources from Paizo are practically non-existent. The NPC guide was a nice tool and the upcoming NPC hardcover sounds like it will be a great DM resource that will be in-line with the bestiaries, but not a true DM support book (just a stat book).

I don't consider the extra rules material in the UM or UC to be directed at the DM, these are mostly player focused rule-variants that are being pitched to the players for consideration in a game.

As a former subscriber I don't think my opinion on the subject matters much nor do I think that this company will shift gears to my benefit. They need to make money like anyone else and if you want to make money in this business apparently the players (as witnessed by similar WoTC product decisions) is where it will always be at. Keeping the game alive on the other hand has always been a DMs burden, how things fare down the road in that area is yet to be seen. As it currently stands – rules/functionality additions for players are dynamic with most core book expansions whereas for the DM it has been mostly static since day one.

This company is currently focusing on widening its customer base with advertising (books/comic books) and accessibility (Beginner box/Play Space). I think both those avenues will generate more players and more revenue but it doesn't look like the DM (aka - The Last Sacred Cow) will be getting any help in the foreseeable future since nothing is slated for the next year that addresses the issues I have brought up.

Anyway


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Ultimate Campaign seems like it will be right up your alley. (That was the paizocon announcement I was most excited by.

I'm not sure there's enough material to fill too many dm support books (given you're not counting bestiaries and the npc codex).

Dark Archive

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Steve Geddes wrote:

Ultimate Campaign seems like it will be right up your alley. (That was the paizocon announcement I was most excited by.

I'm not sure there's enough material to fill too many dm support books (given you're not counting bestiaries and the npc codex).

Thanks for the heads up on the Ultimate Campaign book. Beyond your reference in your post I can't seem to find any info on this website.

----------------------------

I disagree on the amount of potential DM content that can be published. I think there is more than enough material for DM support books:

-Book of detailed templates with examples. Green Ronin already did this with the AB and Paizo drew from it as a source. It’s outdated and can use an overhaul or a redo from a different perspective (and made bigger).

-Creature building book - not a book of creatures but a book that dissects and gives you the breakdown of creature abilities, attacks, power breakdown and creating new material. Encounter design and support, alternate encounter (CR) planning systems, etc. Creating Boss or Leader creatures to allay action economy issues, i.e. a good fight without having to resort to +4CR to or multiple creatures to get it.

-Book supporting alternate play types by modifying the existing system: Low-fantasy, low-magic, horror, gritty, etc. And not suggestions or a few ideas but an entire overhaul or examination of the current rules and mechanical changes needed to support other play styles. Basically a book for DMs covering the most asked for sets of variant rules: alternate play styles (low-magic, E6 or E8, older edition style of play and complexity, rules for playing Pathfinder on Hard Mode) to subjects like item creation variants, magic scarcity in-game, et al. This can even be a series of books - depending on how much time they want to spend in each book on a particular subject – maybe pick three topics and do a full hardcover in the series to address them.

-Books on rules expansions - and there's a ton of material here - traps, haunts, diseases, magical and mundane threats, etc. Basically a GMG 2 and 3, just the straight mechanical stuff. This can also expand class (PC or NPC) building and feat/spell/power creation. In some cases a full book of traps or haunts could even merit their own book(s).

-Books on magic items - again, not just a compendium of magic crap but a book on magic item creation and integration based upon campaign desires and set up.

-Treasure table with details – EX: Mother of all Treasure Tables from Necromancer Games

-Books on game philosophy and design: Villains, long term campaigns, adventure/dungeon/plot design, etc.

Campaign books: Make them longer. If Wotc got one thing right it was their approach to the hardcover region books for the Realms. The current style of gazetteer booklet from Paizo are very light on content and details for the region they’re suppose to cover (in addition to having the source material spread out over multiple books).

Those are just a few off the top of my head. Won't happen though since 2nd ed is long over and those style of books with that kind of direction apparently don't sell.


Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Auxmaulous wrote:
Campaign books: Make them longer. If Wotc got one thing right it was their approach to the hardcover region books for the Realms. The current style of gazetteer booklet from Paizo are very light on content and details for the region they’re suppose to cover (in addition to having the source material spread out over multiple books).

Are we talking about the same Campaign Setting line? Because while there are books like the Inner Sea World Guide - which is light on the individual countries - there are also books like Maginmar, City of Monuments or Lost Cities of Golarion which are FANTASTIC gm informational books.

Liberty's Edge

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Actually, there may be something to this.

Paizo is soon going to be doing Player Companions once a month instead of twice a month.

Thus, if you are a regular subscriber, and with Paizo's current schedule, they will be releasing 12 Player Companions books, 12 Campaign Setting Books, 12 Adventure Path Books, and three hardcover books yearly. That comes down to roughly 39 books a year. Quite a bit. Averaging out the prices (10.99 for Player Companions; 19.99 for Campaign Settings; 19.99 for APs; 39.99 for Hardcovers, not including taxes/shipping of course), that comes out to a pretty penny each year. However, even if you are purchasing every single book that comes out, it's still generally cheaper than video games, based on the assumption that you purchase one brand-new console game each month.

However, there is no law saying you have to buy them all; in fact, chances are you do not need to unless you are just one of those folks who just has to have a copy of each book on your shelf for reference (i.e., like me). I like the fact there is so much variety. Further, I like that Paizo, unlike many RPG companies (I'm looking at you, Palladium), actually sticks to a consistent production schedule and gives us such great and magnificently-written products. I am not going to hold it against them for succeeding where so many of their colleagues and competitors fail.

If you are on a budget and are upset that you may be left behind as newer and newer products come out, or you are simply an ardent collector who likes having a complete library, that is understandable. But I'd say it's just best to stick with the hardcovers and ask to borrow your friends' copies until you are able to get your own.

Dark Archive

chavamana wrote:
Are we talking about the same Campaign Setting line? Because while there are books like the Inner Sea World Guide - which is light on the individual countries - there are also books like Maginmar, City of Monuments or Lost Cities of Golarion which are FANTASTIC gm informational books

Forums ate my post -

Basically the books in that line are too short. Lost Cities is an excellent book and I have compared it to Lost Empires of the Faerun by WotC. LC has a few creatures, a template and some great creature modifications. LEotF has a: full bestiary, list of related magic items/artifacts, PrCs related to lost empires, spells, etc.

I just don't think the books in that line should always be restricted to 68 pages - it doesn't work for me. I think the Lost Cities would have been an amazing book if it was say - 128 or 198 pages long with a similar treatment of FRs Lost Empires. In the case of (some) of the Campaign Setting line my complaint (as a DM) is that the material was too short.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Auxmaulous wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

Ultimate Campaign seems like it will be right up your alley. (That was the paizocon announcement I was most excited by.

I'm not sure there's enough material to fill too many dm support books (given you're not counting bestiaries and the npc codex).

Thanks for the heads up on the Ultimate Campaign book. Beyond your reference in your post I can't seem to find any info on this website.

There hasn't been much about it yet, but here is the blog post with a few, sketchy details.


Auxmaulous wrote:


Thanks for the heads up on the Ultimate Campaign book. Beyond your reference in your post I can't seem to find any info on this website.

----------------------------

I disagree on the amount of potential DM content that can be published. I think there is more than enough material for DM support books:

-Book of detailed templates with examples. Green Ronin already did this with the AB and Paizo drew from it as a source. It’s outdated and can use an overhaul or a redo from a different perspective (and made bigger).

-Creature building book - not a book of creatures but a book that dissects and gives you the breakdown of creature abilities, attacks, power breakdown and creating new material. Encounter design and support, alternate encounter (CR) planning systems, etc. Creating Boss or Leader creatures to allay action economy issues, i.e. a good fight without having to resort to +4CR to or multiple creatures to get it.

-Book supporting alternate play types by modifying the existing system: Low-fantasy, low-magic, horror, gritty, etc. And not suggestions or a few ideas but an entire overhaul or examination of the current rules and mechanical changes needed to support other play styles. Basically a book for DMs covering the most asked for sets of variant rules: alternate play styles (low-magic, E6 or E8, older edition style of play and complexity, rules for playing Pathfinder on Hard Mode) to subjects like item creation variants, magic scarcity in-game, et al. This can even be a series of books - depending on how much time they want to spend in each book on a particular subject – maybe pick three topics and do a full hardcover in the series to address them.

-Books on rules expansions - and there's a ton of material...

A creature template book has received some interest by some of the Paizo higher ups, at least in the bestiary wishlist threads. Not sure if it means we will get one anytime soon, but I could see it happening.

Not sure if there is enough really to put together a separate hardcover creature building book. Seems like you could use the existing bestiaries as a template for other creatures.

I would be interested in seeing books supporting other play styles...but they seem hesitant to put much support into game styles that can't be run in Pathfinder. I wouldn't want Paizo to spread themselves thin by having to support multiple settings not tied into Golarion in some manner.

Dark Archive

Thanks for the link Steve - it looks like a compilation of the various subsystems they have put out over the years. I think this is going to be a good book, not exactly what I was looking for....but wth?

At this point the only way I will see the books I want in publication would be to write them myself.


Auxmaulous wrote:
In the case of other tools being pushed – say randomized minis, I consider them a detriment and very anti-DM. You know, they person who most likely already spends the most money in the group?

I am by far not a pathfinder fanboy (I haven't purchased any PFRPG books). But complaining about plastic minis seems silly.

Don't like using miniatures, don't buy them.

Like miniatures but already have too many, don't buy them.

Like miniatures and want more but these are too pricey, buy them on the secondary market (you mind need to visit another company to get better prices).

The problem wasn't that they were randomized (which drives down costs), but it wasn't randomized enough (single minis versus sets of 4-5).


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
pres man wrote:
Auxmaulous wrote:
In the case of other tools being pushed – say randomized minis, I consider them a detriment and very anti-DM. You know, they person who most likely already spends the most money in the group?

I am by far not a pathfinder fanboy (I haven't purchased any PFRPG books). But complaining about plastic minis seems silly.

Don't like using miniatures, don't buy them.

Like miniatures but already have too many, don't buy them.

Like miniatures and want more but these are too pricey, buy them on the secondary market (you mind need to visit another company to get better prices).

The problem wasn't that they were randomized (which drives down costs), but it wasn't randomized enough (single minis versus sets of 4-5).

I dont think they've settled on a format yet, so it would be worth keeping an eye on upcoming sets even if you havent liked the previous ones.

The most recent set has boosters of 4 rather than individual boosters. From what I gather, they will trial a few different formats and see what gets the most support and/or what suits their production needs.

Dark Archive

pres man wrote:
Auxmaulous wrote:
In the case of other tools being pushed – say randomized minis, I consider them a detriment and very anti-DM. You know, they person who most likely already spends the most money in the group?

I am by far not a pathfinder fanboy (I haven't purchased any PFRPG books). But complaining about plastic minis seems silly.

Don't like using miniatures, don't buy them.

Like miniatures but already have too many, don't buy them.

Like miniatures and want more but these are too pricey, buy them on the secondary market (you mind need to visit another company to get better prices).

The problem wasn't that they were randomized (which drives down costs), but it wasn't randomized enough (single minis versus sets of 4-5).

No offense intended but that is a pathetic response.

Wotc's "collect'em all" approach to boosters was repulsive - the pre-painted market being what it is, most DMs bought the boosters in hopes that they would get something they could use for their game while staying current and supporting a brand. Yet if you needed a goblin worg rider you had to buy several boosters or pay through the nose for a set of rares based on model of artificial scarcity. And Paizo perpetuates this stupidity and disregard to DMs while loyal fans buy it up.

But I'll do you one better to your list of folksy and dismissive advice -

Like miniatures? Well, just buy the pre-made sets from Paizo designed to support your game as you need them.

Oh wait, the most logical and DM supportive option isn't a choice.

Most DMs want non-randomized mini sets to support their games, plain and simple. We don't need a glut of rares, uncommons, commons that we won't use and this isn't a collectable game so why even have the rarity? The fact that they got people to swallow this marketing scheme is a testament to the loyalty that people feel to the brand. That is a good thing for them right now, but it doesn't mean that supporters are still not getting fleeced.

This a money making scheme without the win-win of the vendor and the customer. And they can make specific sets - they just did it with the Champions of Evil set supporting their free RPG module. Yet they produce special minis only available if you make a large investment in their randomized scheme. Instead of giving the customer what they want they sort of give them what the want...maybe(randomized) with special investment commitments (buy-in to buy the oversized mini).

The whole thing saddens me more than anything else. I haven't bought any of their minis as much as I wanted to - both to support this company and to get what I need as a DM. I would like to think that they have learned from the misstates of the other company but it's the same crap all over again.

Whatever, they're making their money so why should they care. This is a dead-end subject.

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Minis ain't cheap to make. Good minis REALLY ain't cheap to make. Non-random, good minis cost more than the market will simply bear.

Quality + Diversity + Non-Random. Pick two.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Auxmaulous wrote:

No offense intended but that is a pathetic response.

Wotc's "collect'em all" approach to boosters was repulsive - the pre-painted market being what it is, most DMs bought the boosters in hopes that they would get something they could use for their game while staying current and supporting a brand. Yet if you needed a goblin worg rider you had to buy several boosters or pay through the nose for a set of rares based on model of artificial scarcity. And Paizo perpetuates this stupidity and disregard to DMs while loyal fans buy it up.

But I'll do you one better to your list of folksy and dismissive advice -

Like miniatures? Well, just buy the pre-made sets from Paizo designed to support your game as you need them.

Oh wait, the most logical and DM supportive option isn't a choice.

Most DMs want non-randomized mini sets to support their games, plain and simple. We don't need a glut of rares, uncommons, commons that we won't use and this isn't a collectable game so why even have the rarity? The fact that they got people to swallow this marketing scheme is a testament to the loyalty that people feel to the brand. That is a good thing for them right now, but it doesn't mean that supporters are still not getting fleeced.

This a money making scheme without the win-win of the vendor and the customer. And they can make specific sets - they just did it with the Champions of Evil set supporting their free RPG module. Yet they produce special minis only available if you make a large investment in their randomized scheme. Instead of giving the customer what they want they sort of give them what the want...maybe(randomized) with special investment commitments (buy-in to buy the oversized mini).

The whole thing saddens me more than anything else. I haven't bought any of their minis as much as I wanted to - both to support this company and to get what I need as a DM. I would like to think that they have learned from the misstates of the other company but it's the same crap all over again.

Whatever, they're making their money so why should they care. This is a dead-end subject.

I wouldnt want to persuade you to buy them if you dont want to, of course, but they have been pretty upfront about the reasons for going the randomised route. It wasnt that they want to make bags of money and producing randomised minis generates a greater profit margin than non-randomised. The fact is, randomisation is necessary to make high quality, low production run plastic miniatures. If they didnt make them in randomised sets they wouldnt be made.

.
It wasnt a choice of "Do we make these minis in randomised cases or in visible, non-random formats?" it was "Do we make this minis in randomised cases or do we not make them?"

The only reason they can offer the Encounter packs (deliberately designed so that opponents of randomised minis could still be served) is because they are repaints of minis made economically viable through a randomised model.

Maybe if the demand gets high enough they'll be able to match the cost of more mainstream, plastic toys. But in the small numbers that RPG players will buy them, there isnt currently an option (unless they were prepared to compromise on quality, I guess).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Of course it's designed to make money. You don't go to work every day to break even, do you? Neither do the folks at Paizo or at Wiz Kids.

Frankly, the quality and the diversity are first-rate. As has been patiently explained many times, to get that quality, you have to randomize them.

The pre-packed Beginner Box Heroes minis are 4 for $12.99; the Champions of Evil Encounter Pack is 6 for $19.99. Both price points come out a little over $3, or about what you can get many singles in the Pathfinder Battles line. If those seem too costly to you, I don't know that you'll ever be pleased.


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Well I don't mean to offend, but ...

You ever notice that when someone says that, what immediately follows is an insult. LOL

Look, Auxmaulous it is obvious you don't really understand how the market forces are working here.

Look, you want to get a non-randomized set of critters that work for your specific campaign, here is what you do. Go to a secondary market site on the internet. Pick the singles you are interested in, put them into your digital shopping cart and buy them. There you go.

You know what I don't need, three identical zombies for $10. (they are half the package)

You want that, go for it. Oh, you didn't buy that? Why not? It is what you want. Oh, those particular minis aren't what you want at that price, well guess what, that is what happens when you make non-randomized packages. You get sets that only a few people want to buy, which means the company doesn't make a lot (see Reaper's pre-paints) or they do and go out of business (see how WotC line folded after doing non-randomized).

Look, only a freaken idiot buys random sets in order to get the exact thing they need for their game. "Oh darn it, I only got 1 set of 2 goblins, but I really needed 8. What am I going to do with these other 3 lizardfolk I got now." If you need 8 goblins go buy 8 goblins on the secondary market and get exactly what you wanted. This isn't rocket surgery (intentional joke) here.

"But I wanted the ettin, but on the secondary market it costs $20. I don't want to spend that much on it." Ok, first off, go some where else, I can point you to a site where you can get an ettin for $3. But let's say it is something else that is just too freaken expensive on the secondary market. Ok, so you can't buy it, but if it never existed you couldn't buy it either. So ultimately you are no worse off if it is something that you can't afford than if it never existed. But because it does exist you can now afford that $3 ettin that would have costed you $13 if there wasn't a nice cheap plastic alternative.

As a GM, I WANT Paizo/WizKids to produce random miniatures. Please produce more and make them more random. While all the people buy them random, I'll purchase mine on the secondary market and getting the ones I am interested in at reasonable prices (for me that is usually not more than $1 for a medium or smaller mini). If you think buying random boxes is foolish (I do), then don't do it. Let the foolish be foolish and benefit from it. Not to say I never buy random boxes, but only after I've done research and decided that even if I just got the lamest commons in the set, I still would have thought it was a good deal, do I do it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

OK - minatures discussion aside (something I am not a huge fan of - Wizkids is a nice company, but the whole thing seems incredibly faddish...but I digress).

I wouldn't mind some of these things that have been suggested as a way for Paizo to support Pathfinder more fully. Another GMG book would be a nice idea. As a GM, unless you plan on just taking Paizo's numerous NPC examples as templates for all you do - mind you they have many good samples and suggestions - you'll need to get your hands into the mix more thoroughly.

One of D&D 4e's arguments (and simplification) was that 3.5 (and its affiliates like Pathfinder) was a greater amount of work, mechanically, for a GM when it came to NPCs; opponents; monsters, etc. For me, when I have run long-term campaigns, I can say that this can take some fun out of the story-building aspects of the game. Having Paizo support with more detailed processes I think can certainly lend greater ease to this issue and keep campaigns running more smoothly. I understand that may not be everyone's interest though, but it might be helpful . (Also, I don't want to turn this into a 4e vs Pathfinder griefing thread - so please understand I am only citing an example.)

That being said, on some of the suggestions:

Book of detailed templates with examples. Green Ronin already did this with the AB... I think Paizo is already doing this with some of their more Golarion-centric creatures, but it seems to be all over the AP books and I wouldn't mind seeing them put all in one book - or possibly revising/adding from the material in the AB.

Creature building book; Books on rules expansions; Books on game philosophy and design... I couldn't imagine filling multiple books on these subjects but another GMG book covering these topics would be helpful at filling in basics and giving comprehensive guidelines.

Treasure table with details... Would love to see something like this. Call me old school on this, but the large, randomized treasure tables that Wizards/TSR put out for all their magic items was a great resource - providing easy access and some interesting plot hooks. I wonder if something similar can be expected in the UEG?

Grand Lodge

I'm going to pretend that I never read the title to this thread. Blasphemey!!

Liberty's Edge

It's funny that the guy is mad at Paizo because of the minis. It's WizKids that sets the prices, packaging, etc. if you're mad about the minis, yell at WizKids.

For me, the PPM are a godsend! With a wife, two kids, and a job with an irregular schedule, I don't have the time to paint everything I want to paint.


Alex Martin wrote:
OK - minatures discussion aside (something I am not a huge fan of - Wizkids is a nice company, but the whole thing seems incredibly faddish...but I digress).

WizKids making plastic minis for over a decade seems to be pretty long-lasting to be considered a "fad" - but I digress.


HangarFlying wrote:
It's funny that the guy is mad at Paizo because of the minis. It's WizKids that sets the prices, packaging, etc. if you're mad about the minis, yell at WizKids.

It's not as if WizKids doesn't get any input and guidance from Paizo on this kinda thing...

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Auxmaulous wrote:

...snip...

Like miniatures? Well, just buy the pre-made sets from Paizo designed to support your game as you need them.

Oh wait, the most logical and DM supportive option isn't a choice.

Most DMs want non-randomized mini sets to support their games, plain and simple.

This is Paizo's solution. I think it's pretty neat.

As someone who runs APs, this is even cooler.

Again, just my opinion.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Brian E. Harris wrote:
WizKids making plastic minis for over a decade seems to be pretty long-lasting to be considered a "fad" - but I digress.

Fad was my polite way of saying I think they (WizKidz) over did it/exploited the concept of plastic minis - especially when it came to MageKnight.

They put out so many expansions and tried to add so many rule concepts in the first 3 years of releases (13 different sets/concepts) that their minis became poorer in quality (which is a polite way of saying horrible paint jobs and warped plastic in many samples). The original rule concepts devolved into a mish-mash of Warhammer Light and D&D dungeon-crawl as they added more and more stuff.

The manner that it was rushed to market to capitalize on the interest with little regard to product quality or establishing consistency in the game rules did make it feel like it was a gaming fad. The fact that Topps essentially shut them down by 2007 and were on the verge of dissolving them as a company only adds to the flash-in-the-pan feel to me. If NECA hadn't picked them up, the company wouldn't exist. So saying they've been doing minis for a decade is a generous statement.

I'll admit that the company looks to have learned their lessons and their products are much improved under NECA so far. The Paizo minis I have seen look consistently nice and well-designed; and I trust that the folks at Paizo will help manage the Pathfinder Battles concept to keep it consistent. But I am little skeptical based on their history.

Despite all this, plastic mini's are a great idea and I certainly I am interested using Pathfinder figs for gaming. I chalk that up to a belief in Paizo and the quality of their products.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
GeraintElberion wrote:


This is Paizo's solution. I think it's pretty neat.
As someone who runs APs, this is even cooler.

Agreed - it is a nice, alternative solution for gaming.

Dark Archive

pres man wrote:
Look, Auxmaulous it is obvious you don't really understand how the market forces are working here.

Look, pres man it is obvious that you have bought into the "it has to be random" swill without applying some critical thought to the whole process.

Reaper produces a set of three different orcs (prepainted) for 7 dollars and 3 different goblins for 6 - that is 2.3 to 2 dollars apiece. Quality product (superior sculpts to the Paizo WizKids minis) but they only have 38 or so different types of pre-pained minis. Since these are preexisting molds from some of the metal lines the whole "it has to be random!!!1!!! for it to go into production" argument falls flat. Obviously there is a way to do it in a non-random fashion that can be made profitable but Paizo isn't interested.

And why do you assume that people wouldn't want to buy non-randomized core creatures sets? That is poor assumption, to think that DMs - if given a choice - would chose random boxes over fixed sets? That random is the only way to deliver the product to the target buyer? Really?

Wotc eventually flopped in the minis arena because of a few reasons (which you don't seem to know or or care to acknowledge).

- Their product was crap
- Their selection - based off of the newer MMs were crappy
- DDM mini rules went through a series very unpopular rules changes which was another factor as to why they started to tank (big problem)
- 4th edition was a drain on their resources/shift in focus.
- Hasbro didn’t like the numbers (say in relation to MtG) (Bigger problem)

The displayed mini + plus random was a desperate compromise to turn things around a little too little and a little too late.
They made some similar screw ups in the Axis and Allies miniature game (changing sizes of armor to make them viable for Flame of War). The DDM line didn't flop because of the single displayed mini + random format, that was their last attempt to revive the line (which was already flagging hence the change in format). The line had plenty of problems, namely a pool of idiotic/poorly recycled monsters to draw from, in addition the fing up the DDM rules (yet again during the 4th transition).

To the best of my knowledge Paizo doesn’t have the same problems as WoTC I listed above – they have different problems (investment of capital, taking sole risk, direct manufacture and the resources it requires, etc). They went with WizKids because it would be the easiest, most profitable, has already been tried (on sucker gamers) and is a low-risk way for them to make money on the product. The random aspect is something they could have pushed out but they decided on a trade-off because history has shown how stupid and gullible gamers really can be. I'm sure one of their biggest concerns at announcement was the potential backlash to the non-random format – but everyone ate it up (like loyal fans do) and the minority of complainers were dismissed.

So we get vestiges of the Wotc model of rares and commons, where as in the old DDM line at least there was a game attached it to explain the rarity system - now we're just left with some of the bizarre artifacts of that model of the collect'em all days with no real reason or logic besides the fact that by creating artificial scarcity you increase purchases.

And just the same I don't feel like picking though other peoples leftovers and rejects to make my minis collection. I don't think that's a viable answer to the problem when discussing the choice of direction Paizo has made in getting product to market and their marketing schemes to get people to buy their product. Your methodology for purchasing goods does little to stimulate growth in the line – you are at best an opportunist buyer on the second market, i.e. mostly useless to them. Plus picking through other peoples unwanted leftovers just isn't appealing and I don't feel like being a vulture to an immoral sales model. I've seen those 1-2 dollar selections and they are mostly garbage.

If I buy anything now it's Reaper or Otherworld minis, in the case of the latter it's usually their fixed sets (orc tribe, etc). I was mostly commenting on the purple kool-aid drinking and sad state of schemes around here (lack of DM support). I don't expect this company to shift gears anytime soon especially with all the strong loyalist willing to turn over money on principle and goodwill alone. I just need to remember to post less here, dealing with zealots or people heavily invested beyond the point of logic is a lose-lose situation that I need to remember to avoid.


Auxmaulous wrote:
And just the same I don't feel like picking though other peoples leftovers and rejects to make my minis collection. I don't think that's a viable answer to the problem when discussing the choice of direction Paizo has made in getting product to market and their marketing schemes to get people to buy their product. Your methodology for purchasing goods does little to stimulate growth in the line – you are at best an opportunist buyer on the second market, i.e. mostly useless to them. Plus picking through other peoples unwanted leftovers just isn't appealing and I don't feel like being a vulture to an immoral sales model. I've seen those 1-2 dollar selections and they are mostly garbage.

I think this more than anything else tells me you really don't know how things work.

First off, in order for material to be on the secondary market it has to be purchased from the producer. Hence the producer makes money on it. It doesn't make one lick of difference to the producer if it is a brick and mortar game store that sells the minis in their original packages or an online game store that sells the minis opened already.

Also, it is not necessarily "picking through other peoples unwanted leftovers" if it is just a company breaking open the cases to sell them. No customer has purchased them, handled them and then sent them in to be sold. Certainly if you pick them off ebay, the likelihood of someone else touching them might be higher. But frankly, I find the whole issue with of avoiding used material a bit strange. Does it apply to other areas? "Yeah that book is out of print and I'd like to have it but someone else read it so yucky!"


Auxmaulous wrote:
Look, pres man it is obvious that you have bought into the "it has to be random" swill without applying some critical thought to the whole process.

Oh, he most certainly has.

Auxmaulous wrote:
Reaper produces a set of three different orcs (prepainted) for 7 dollars and 3 different goblins for 6 - that is 2.3 to 2 dollars apiece. Quality product (superior sculpts to the Paizo WizKids minis) but they only have 38 or so different types of pre-pained minis.

And I can tell you, they don't sell NEARLY the number of minis that DDM did or Paizo does.

Auxmaulous wrote:
Since these are preexisting molds from some of the metal lines the whole "it has to be random!!!1!!! for it to go into production" argument falls flat. Obviously there is a way to do it in a non-random fashion that can be made profitable but Paizo isn't interested.

A> The molds aren't the same, and the molds don't last forever.

B> Reaper is undoubtedly making a profit on it, but as you pointed out above, they only have 38 or so different types of pre-painted minis (PPM).

This is where the law of diminishing returns comes in. More variation means less sales per SKU, which means less profit per SKU, which ultimately means money lost on a large, varied catalog.

Reaper's tight catalog on PPM lets them affordably cater to the small market of those that actually buy non-random PPM.

Auxmaulous wrote:
And why do you assume that people wouldn't want to buy non-randomized core creatures sets? That is poor assumption, to think that DMs - if given a choice - would chose random boxes over fixed sets? That random is the only way to deliver the product to the target buyer? Really?

Why do you assume that DMs would buy enough of these to make enough of a sales impact? This has been tried before, and it failed, miserably.

Auxmaulous wrote:

Wotc eventually flopped in the minis arena because of a few reasons (which you don't seem to know or or care to acknowledge).

- Their product was crap

Yet sold remarkably well until they started listening to ideas like you have presented as being good.

Auxmaulous wrote:
- Their selection - based off of the newer MMs were crappy

Yet, again, they sold remarkably well, until the end.

Auxmaulous wrote:
- DDM mini rules went through a series very unpopular rules changes which was another factor as to why they started to tank (big problem)

This definitely negatively impacted sales to people that played the minis game - but even the switch from DDM1 to DDM2 didn't affect things nearly as much as attempts to cater to those that wanted non-blind non-random minis.

Auxmaulous wrote:
The displayed mini + plus random was a desperate compromise to turn things around a little too little and a little too late.

Or too much, too early. It was not a good idea, and never was.

Auxmaulous wrote:
The DDM line didn't flop because of the single displayed mini + random format, that was their last attempt to revive the line (which was already flagging hence the change in format). The line had plenty of problems, namely a pool of idiotic/poorly recycled monsters to draw from, in addition the fing up the DDM rules (yet again during the 4th transition).

It wasn't solely because of that, but it was definitely a nail in the coffin. DDM game aside, how is it that Paizo's selling minis quite well without a game attached to it?

Auxmaulous wrote:
They went with WizKids because it would be the easiest, most profitable, has already been tried (on sucker gamers) and is a low-risk way for them to make money on the product. The random aspect is something they could have pushed out but they decided on a trade-off because history has shown how stupid and gullible gamers really can be. I'm sure one of their biggest concerns at announcement was the potential backlash to the non-random format – but everyone ate it up (like loyal fans do) and the minority of complainers were dismissed.

Or, less-insultingly, the majority of fans completely disagree with the concept of buying non-random, non-blind PPM, and realize that the cheapest way to acquire PPM is in the blind/random/rarity format.

Auxmaulous wrote:
So we get vestiges of the Wotc model of rares and commons, where as in the old DDM line at least there was a game attached it to explain the rarity system - now we're just left with some of the bizarre artifacts of that model of the collect'em all days with no real reason or logic besides the fact that by creating artificial scarcity you increase purchases.

Again, not so bizarre, and plenty of reason and logic behind it. It's the only viable model to sell a large variety of PPM on a regular basis.

Auxmaulous wrote:
And just the same I don't feel like picking though other peoples leftovers and rejects to make my minis collection. I don't think that's a viable answer to the problem when discussing the choice of direction Paizo has made in getting product to market and their marketing schemes to get people to buy their product.

Fantastically, you don't have to do this. Go buy Reaper PPM.

Auxmaulous wrote:
Your methodology for purchasing goods does little to stimulate growth in the line – you are at best an opportunist buyer on the second market, i.e. mostly useless to them.

So, little to stimulate growth? H&M sold so well that RotRL came out, and I guarantee we're going to see another expansion past that.

Auxmaulous wrote:
Plus picking through other peoples unwanted leftovers just isn't appealing and I don't feel like being a vulture to an immoral sales model. I've seen those 1-2 dollar selections and they are mostly garbage.

If you don't like it, you don't like it. But immoral? Wow.

Auxmaulous wrote:
If I buy anything now it's Reaper or Otherworld minis, in the case of the latter it's usually their fixed sets (orc tribe, etc).

And isn't it great that Reaper or Otherworld sell these? Because I'd hate to see the additional caterwauling that would exist if they didn't.

Auxmaulous wrote:
I was mostly commenting on the purple kool-aid drinking and sad state of schemes around here (lack of DM support). I don't expect this company to shift gears anytime soon especially with all the strong loyalist willing to turn over money on principle and goodwill alone.

Seriously, dude? I know I'm not the only one who ISN'T buying minis "on principle and goodwill" - I'm buying them because I want more and new minis.

Auxmaulous wrote:
I just need to remember to post less here, dealing with zealots or people heavily invested beyond the point of logic is a lose-lose situation that I need to remember to avoid.

Perhaps I should have read this sentence before responding to you.

Dark Archive

pres man wrote:

First off, in order for material to be on the secondary market it has to be purchased from the producer. Hence the producer makes money on it. It doesn't make one lick of difference to the producer if it is a brick and mortar game store that sells the minis in their original packages or an online game store that sells the minis opened already.

Also, it is not necessarily "picking through other peoples unwanted leftovers" if it is just a company breaking open the cases to sell them. No customer has purchased them, handled them and then sent them in to be sold. Certainly if you pick them off ebay, the likelihood of someone else touching them might be higher. But frankly, I find the whole issue with of avoiding used material a bit strange. Does it apply to other areas? "Yeah that book is out of print and I'd like to have it but someone else read it so yucky!"

You don't get it.

A guy who picks up 1 to 2 dollar minis - from any company out there (looking for price vs. brand loyalty) - doesn't drive the market. Your 2 dollar purchases on the secondary scene don't drive the market. If you purchased the rarer mini's on the secondary market at a higher price (20-30 dollars for rares), then yes - that would be another reason to perpetuate the scarcity model and be a market driver. You’re not that part of that equation. Even though Paizo will not get the direct secondary sales profit from high prices rares they will still see healthy purchases at the normal retail level due to the artificial scarcity and demand on the secondary market for those rares. So by having randomized minis with rares they don’t see the direct inflated value of those rares (...well,maybe they do) but their sales increase as people buy more product to get a full set or acquire popular rares for resale (as they get dupes from trying to "collect'em all").

Your 1 dollar "I'll buy mini's from any company" attitude on the matter doesn't drive s!*@, plain and simple. You are looking for a bargain and if the particular item doesn't exist you won't demand it since you wouldn't pay for it (as you stated earlier) so you are neither a customer (direct) nor a driver for that market. TL;DR version: At your claimed purchase level you do not drive the secondary market

On another (immoral and unscrupulous) issue I find it interesting that no one has questioned or even thought about the fact that Paizo licensed the line to Wizkids, who in turn set the rarity levels (maybe at Paizo's suggestion) and then turns around and sells their singles at a marked up price - based on that artificial scarcity.

Mini

It sure isn't based on the size or sculpt of the mini. The pricing is an effect of the rarity that they themselves created directly or indirectly.

Maybe they are buying boosters and just opening them and re-selling their own product at a marked up price (much like how many hobby stores do)? Or they could just be buying them directly (non-random) from WizKids and selling them at a marked up price? Either way, it's a bit scummy. This is having your cake and eating it (thanks to gullible people).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------

And as final note on the issue of being able to produce profitable fixed sets (with customer interest) vs. "they need to randomize" argument I present a few points:

-The initial tester to see how many people would buy/be interested was the 4 set of fixed heroes/PCs. These were not repaints but a full set of 4 new, fixed miniatures in a themed set. Based upon the fact that they went on with the line I would have to assume that the sales were successful.

-Each line series has a FIXED capstone mini to entice people to buy a case of random minis. Do you think there would be as much interest or incentive if you would drop an extra 40 dollars after buying a case to get a random large "guess what's in the box" mini? No, it would be highly risky and they know it - that's why the rare special minis are presented and are fixed - as an incentive to buy a case. Obviously WizKids was able to make these large individual minis under special circumstances – again though, it’s just to perpetuate the “get you to buy random” crap marketing scheme.

At the end of the day Paizo makes the money and if their target customers are happy it doesn’t matter. It would be nice for this company, which cares oh so much about the customer to drop the marketing games and remove the collectability aspect from Role-playing games and game support.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

They sell exactly what you want - encounter packs. Problem solved.

You get what you want (with the associated lack of range of mini) and those who prefer randomized minis get what they want.

And there was much rejoicing?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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We've already had plenty of discussion on the topic of randomized minis; it doesn't need to take this thread off topic. Those of you interested, please read this post, plus most of the next ten pages or so. If you're still not convinced after reading all of that that prepainted minis need to be randomized in order for us to offer a wide variety of figures, then I apologize for reality disappointing you with facts.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

1 person marked this as a favorite.

My eyes blurred over due to yet another random minis discussion, but I tried hard not to lose sight of my goal: to agree with Auxmaulous to some extent.

An amazing amount of player material gets published. Frankly, I view modules and the majority of what's in Adventure Paths as player material - yeah, the GM runs them, but they're pretty much for the players. Ultimate Campaigns is great. The GMG was great. But it still feels pretty light to me.

It feels like there has been very, very little GM-only material besides bestiaries (which covers most of the revised/revisited line, etc, and even parts of the modules and adventure paths). Which is strange, because there's actually a LOT of GM material. Perhaps it feels that way to me because it's virtually all world-specific stuff? Distant Worlds, Dragon Empires and Isles of the Shackles were all awesome, but aren't stuff that a Pathfinder GM uses ... they're stuff that a Golarion GM uses. Yeah, I mine it all like hell and love reading it, but that's not the same as a book like the GMG or the forthcoming mythic book.

Not sure there's really much that can be done about this - after all, it's not like I want a flood of new rules every year, either, but I definitely see Auxmaulous's point.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
Those of you interested, please read this post, plus most of the next ten pages or so.

Thank you for the information. Apologies for contributing to taking the topic off-track.

Dark Archive

gbonehead wrote:
Stuff

Wow

You don't even have to agree with anything I posted (nor would I want you associated with a dissenter) but I do appreciate the effort on your part to understand my point. I figured I was mostly alone on this one.

Thanks


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I don't feel there's too much Paizo. I just don't have enough money to spend on it.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Auxmaulous wrote:
gbonehead wrote:
Stuff

Wow

You don't even have to agree with anything I posted (nor would I want you associated with a dissenter) but I do appreciate the effort on your part to understand my point. I figured I was mostly alone on this one.

Thanks

I agree with you that there should be more DM-stuff, I just want more of everything. :)

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