How to get a full attack in the surprise round?


Rules Questions


Possible?


klevis69 wrote:
Possible?

Time Stop? :)

Maaaaaaybe a partial-charge-pounce, but probably not.
You'd have to find a way that let you do a full attack as a standard action. Hopefully those don't really exist.

Sovereign Court

It's possible through a teamwork feat and a little set up actually. Check out the feat Lookout from the Advanced Player's Guide.

Works especially well for Divination specialized Wizards and/or the Divine Strategist archetype for Clerics from Ultimate Combat.


Morgen wrote:

It's possible through a teamwork feat and a little set up actually. Check out the feat Lookout from the Advanced Player's Guide.

Works especially well for Divination specialized Wizards and/or the Divine Strategist archetype for Clerics from Ultimate Combat.

This works very well with inquisitors ;)

They treat every all as if he had this feat and thus if anyone gets the check he may act. If he also passed the Perception check and anyone also did he may act in full force.

If you do it with the Divine Strategist the other teammate must have it... so if only you and one other have it and he botches his roll you get nothing...

Liberty's Edge

Morgen wrote:

It's possible through a teamwork feat and a little set up actually. Check out the feat Lookout from the Advanced Player's Guide.

Works especially well for Divination specialized Wizards and/or the Divine Strategist archetype for Clerics from Ultimate Combat.

That doesn't give you a full round, it just allows you to act in the surprise round. By definition you can't do a full round action in the surprise round

"If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs."

So no you can't in the surprise round. The surprise round is basically just a free standard action. You can hold to go first in the actual round, which is similar, but you lose that standard action.


ciretose wrote:
Morgen wrote:

It's possible through a teamwork feat and a little set up actually. Check out the feat Lookout from the Advanced Player's Guide.

Works especially well for Divination specialized Wizards and/or the Divine Strategist archetype for Clerics from Ultimate Combat.

That doesn't give you a full round, it just allows you to act in the surprise round. By definition you can't do a full round action in the surprise round

"If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs."

So no you can't in the surprise round. The surprise round is basically just a free standard action. You can hold to go first in the actual round, which is similar, but you lose that standard action.

You still seem troubled reading rules text, my friend.

Read it again. Especially the later part of the Feat.

Liberty's Edge

Alienfreak wrote:


You still seem troubled reading rules text, my friend.

Read it again. Especially the later part of the Feat.

;

Missed that, thanks.


20th level mobile fighter


ciretose wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:


You still seem troubled reading rules text, my friend.

Read it again. Especially the later part of the Feat.

;

Missed that, thanks.

But its really hard for a Divine Strategist to get it working...

Because everyone would need that feat. But you could do it as a group concept. Everyone maxing Perception and taking that Teamwork Feat. If you happen to encounter a lot of suprise rounds or even better you often CREATE suprise rounds by hiding from enemies you will smack great time.
Archer getting a free full attack, a Pouncing Barbarian and everything is just awesome...

Sovereign Court

The Bandit Archetype (in Ultimate Combat) for the Rogue has the Ambush ability:

Quote:
At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action.


Rhino Charge + Pounce, though it would be risky. Rhino charge allows you to ready a charge, pounce lets you full attack on a charge, ready is a standard action. You would just need to make sure you picked a 'sure thing' for your ready trigger.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
Rhino Charge + Pounce, though it would be risky. Rhino charge allows you to ready a charge, pounce lets you full attack on a charge, ready is a standard action. You would just need to make sure you picked a 'sure thing' for your ready trigger.

This would not work. You cannot ready an action outside of initiative because you do not get standard actions outside of initiative. Otherwise everyone would walk around always readying an attack 'when they see a foe'.

I mean, otherwise as a wizard you could run around stating that every round you prepare a timestop if you feel threatened in any way.

And once you're in initiative, readying is counterproductive in a surprise round anyways for this tactic.


Weables wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:
Rhino Charge + Pounce, though it would be risky. Rhino charge allows you to ready a charge, pounce lets you full attack on a charge, ready is a standard action. You would just need to make sure you picked a 'sure thing' for your ready trigger.

This would not work. You cannot ready an action outside of initiative because you do not get standard actions outside of initiative. Otherwise everyone would walk around always readying an attack 'when they see a foe'.

I mean, otherwise as a wizard you could run around stating that every round you prepare a timestop if you feel threatened in any way.

And once you're in initiative, readying is counterproductive in a surprise round anyways for this tactic.

I was assuming the character passed the perception test to have an action in the surprise round. If they don't have any actions in the surprise rounds, then getting a full attack would be fairly difficult.

However if they do get a standard in the surprise round, then that can take that action to ready a charge if X occurs. The ready action interrupts others actions, so as long as you can safely predict X occurring, you shouldn't be in too bad of shape from having to use the ready action. If you can't safely predict X occurring, well ....


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

By Raw
- You can make a partial charge anytime you were unable to take a full-round action to charge.
- During the surprise round, you are unable to take a full-round action.
- Pounce lets you make a full attack on the charge.

By RAW, it works. It breaks all kinds of RAI though, and I personally would rule that partial charge and charge are not the same thing, and thus pounce does not work with partial charges.


Rhino Charge (the feat) allows you to ready an action to charge. RAI you aren't supposed to get a full attack in a surprise round, so anything we puzzle together isn't going to be RAI.

Liberty's Edge

The Lookout teamwork feat is an impractical trap:

* You and your ally (who also must have the feat) have to be practically joined at the hip, because it only works if you're adjacent.

* To get the full-attack or standard+move benefit, you and your ally both must have Uncanny Dodge or some other means of never being surprised in the surprise round.

....so unless you and your pal are barbarian archer Siamese twins, you're unlikely to see a worthwhile gain (especially since Lookout is one of those feats which works only once during an encounter).


If you were half-orc barbarian archer Siamese twins you could also grab the teamwork feat amplified rage, and you would be filled with awesome.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Darkorin wrote:

The Bandit Archetype (in Ultimate Combat) for the Rogue has the Ambush ability:

Quote:
At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action.

I don't think that works, since you never get a full round action out of it.

Dark Archive

One way to get it pending DM approval to use a alternate casting system from UM.

If you have a caster using the new Word of Power system there is the power called 'Borrow Future' (time). This can also be grabbed for a caster using the 'Experimental Spellcaster' feat to learn a few wordspells but otherwise remain a conventional caster. These are both in Ultimate Magic.

The target of a wordspell with this effect word takes either a standard action and a move action or a full-round action immediately after a wordspell with this effect word is cast. The target skips its next turn, but any effects that would occur on its turn or spell effects that would expire on its turn occur normally. The target is not helpless on its next turn, but can take no actions.

Boost: Instead of losing its next turn, the target of a wordspell with this effect word is staggered on its next turn.

Target is selected, which can be boosted (+3 lvl) to pretty much affect all allies within 30ft.

So as lvl 4 spell - full round to one ally losing next turn
as lvl 5 - one ally, who is staggered next turn
as lvl 7 (Selected Boosted) can apply to all allies
as lvl 8 (Control Time Boosted, Selected Boosted) can apply all allies staggered next turn


Be a Giant Mantis.

Sudden Strike (Ex) A giant mantis is particularly adept at moving quickly when its foes are surprised. During a surprise round, a giant mantis may act as if it had a full round to act, rather than just one standard action.

That's all I got. Shame Vermin Shape doesn't give most of those neat abilities vermin have, such as this one. Though a more flexible GM might give it to you.


Quote:
and I personally would rule that partial charge and charge are not the same thing, and thus pounce does not work with partial charges.

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

There is no "partial charge" action. A charge is a charge, and its the big cat hunting strategy: sneak up on the prey charge and attack.


The Teamwork Feat Lookout is actually really effective at providing a full attack on the surprise round for an Inquisitor, Cavalier or a group if they all commit to it.

I DM a group where the Paladin, the Paladin's 6int wolf mount, the Druid, the Druid's 3int Cat and the Arcane Trickster all have it. The only person without it is the cleric that is purely devoted to healing and buffing. They also all have full ranks into perception and most have a +5 perception item as well.

They move in a set formation with the trickster at point looking for traps. Their formation typically means everyone is adjacent to at least 2 others with Lookout, but usually 3 or 4. This consistantly provides full attacks on the surprise round to 2-4 of the 5 and a standard action to those that failed the perception check.

This pretty much makes mosters sneaking up impossible once see invis, scent and other abilities come into play. This also provides the party the ability to quickly decimate targets when they are the ones triggering the surprise.

To top it off, most of them have or will have Outflank and Paired Opportunist as well. The Paladin crits on 15-20 (triggering AoO for everyone else threatening, then gets an AoO himself due to them getting an AoO), the wolf trips (lots of AoO potential if the creature gets a chance to stand up), the Druid and Cat pounce for a ton of damage, and the trickster ranged sneak attacks. With the potential for each character and pet having a full attack and 1 to 3 AoO's, many fights are over in the first round or sometimes even in the surprise round. They also rarely miss due to creatures being flat footed and getting +4 from flanking and additional bonuses from it being prone if the trip works.

Needless to say, this combo can make things frustrating as a DM sometimes :)

Liberty's Edge

The de facto full-attack "surprise":

1) Rogue becomes Invisible and scouts ahead (insane Stealth and Perception).

2) Rogue spots bad guys (one or two guards); thinks they're "easy".

3) Rogue declares initiative.

4) Rogue uses surprise round to move adjacent to a target.

5) Bad guys are oblivious, and so do nothing during surprise round.

6) 1st main combat round, rogue TWFs the ever-livin' crap out of his flatfooted target.


Mike Schneider wrote:

The de facto full-attack "surprise":

1) Rogue becomes Invisible and scouts ahead (insane Stealth and Perception).

2) Rogue spots bad guys (one or two guards); thinks they're "easy".

3) Rogue declares initiative.

Nope, the DM declares initiative, not the rogue, and he shouldn't declare it until the rogue attacks or someone makes a perception check.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Makes a perception check, or makes a successful perception check?

In any case, rogue says 'BOO!' to force DM to declare initiative.


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Quote:
In any case, rogue says 'BOO!' to force DM to declare initiative.

Initiative is rolled, no surprise round, if the bad guys win they use withdraw or run to move away from the BOO! (depending on their level of superstitiousness and the relative hauntedness of the area they're guarding)

Forcing the omnipotent omnicient being to do something is impossible

ATTEMPTING to force the the omnipotent omnicient being to do something is unwise.

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