What would you say is the purpose of the remnants of the Shadowdrake League? Are they fighting for anything or just passing on their special training to anyone that joins? Are they forced to remain secretive to hide from the followers of Nethys? Do the elemental colleges frown upon their unorthodox teachings? Do Shadowdrake Adept still tend to share the alignment of the local government?
And shouldn't the DC for Shadowdrake Legionnaire say Wisdom instead of Intelligence modifier?
I agree with Penumbral Shadow about the spell list size. I've found one of the challenges of playing my beguiler is trying to keep track of so many different spells. I love the flexibility and it's a good problem to have, but I could see it being excessive with the warmage. And with energy substitution you wouldn't really be missing out by losing redundant spell effects.
Also, I know you mentioned that warmage alignments tend to match the attitudes of the local government, but with all the talk of code and discipline, would it be more accurate to say they're prone to be Lawful?
Also for an archetype, would a religious type work? Someone who was converted or trained from a young age by the organization of a deity into some secretive brotherhood. They could use their own sort of divine substitution with less damage against non-preferred types or whatever. I'm not sure how it would work with balance and such. I just know there aren't many divine full casters and it sounds fun. Maybe one good aligned and one evil? Just a thought.
I'm confused about how you can use Arcane Blast at level 1 vs level 9. Isn't it already used in place of an attack?
I also found the Ricocheting Blast to be confusing. Does it only ricochet when a target has a successful save? And for that matter, I thought Arcane Blast targets don't get a saving throw.
Energy Substitution will open up a world of possibilities. Acidballs, Electricity Prisons, Gusts of Earth! I love it!
Have you thought about playing more with Elemental Aura? Maybe as a spell-like ability x times per day and/or constant at level 20? (Although there are already quite a few level 20 perks) Doesn't seem overly powerful, but I think would add a certain intimidating essence to the warmage.
Maybe bonus languages based on the respective element? Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran.
I really liked the class skills for each circle, btw. I thought Acrobatics was especially creative :) Initially I was thinking Knowledge (Nature) might be better for Standing Stone, but after reading the description I definitely agree with Survival.
For the Rolling Thunder Elemental Dynamic using flight could grant the Scent Ability. You know... cuz all dem smells in the air and stuff.
Maybe you could add a sentence in the Standing Stone Arcane Evolution description to explain why their damage is acid? I understand why (now), but it just seems random when you're not familiar with the energy types. Something about the naturally dangerous/reactive chemicals of the earth or something? Idk.
Also, do you plan on making any archetypes or think you'll just stick with the 4 elemental circles?
Great work, regardless.
Typos I noticed:
Furthermore each circle is not well attuned to an conflicting element;
At 20th level, a warmage is named a champion of his circle, as he undergoes a metamorphosis; his body is sizzles with energy and his eyes glow bright with arcane power.
In these cases, the governing body consists of a council of eight appointed masters (two from each circle), and overseen by a praetor who casts the deciding vote in the case of deadlock.
Spells marked with 4 appear in the Advanced Race Guide and are only available to beguilers of the appropriate race.
^haha :)
The following are circles are each dedicated to one of the four fundamental elements (air, earth, fire, and water).
The circle of the standing stone diligently studies the element of earth. Like their patron element rolling thunder warmages are usually shrewd and slow to act.
Oh, man... Haven't even looked through all of this yet, but I like where it's going. Warmage is another class I've been interested in for a while. Are you going to make a separate thread to get more feedback? I would follow that one as well.
I'm with Penumbral Shadow on Master Improviser. I feel like as a feat it could be stronger. Maybe it could also apply to Artisan's Tools for Craft checks? I think that's the only other thing that requires tools to avoid a penalty. I still probably wouldn't take it, but it might give a little more MacGyver flavor to a character.
Also would the archetypes be able to substitute Charisma for Shrewd Tactics?
In the spirit of top tier spells, what about something like a Mass Modify Memory. That seems like it would be the ultimate beguiling. Make a crowd or group of enemies forget an incriminating event or something.
Oh gosh... Like the Men in Black neuralyzer.
Definitely a cool idea. What's your character's name?
In the spirit of top tier spells, what about something like a Mass Modify Memory. That seems like it would be the ultimate beguiling. Make a crowd or group of enemies forget an incriminating event or something.
Speaking of will saves. I'm new to casters but seems like all of the beguiler spells have a Will saving throw. I dread the day I encounter someone with a high will. Is the only strategy at that point to just use a weapon?
I see the logic in the decreasing of skill ranks since it's not a major hindrance to the beguiler still being a top notch skill monkey, but I think this may be a bit of an issue for the archetypes (since they're Cha casters rather than Int casters). I'd recommend keeping the 6+Int progression for the theurgic brigand at least (since it's more rogue-like than the elusive wildling).
Obviously I'm biased, but these were my thoughts as well.
Kinda bummed to see the skills per level lowered to 4 since part of the reason this class caught my eye initially was for its skill monkey applicability. Obviously the spells make up for any lack in skill, but IMO that high functionality for non-lethal alternatives was one of the staples of the original class. Not saying it wasn't a wise choice for balance, just disappointed to see it go.
Love the other changes, though. Thank you for the sap and integration of some of my other suggestions.
I admit I'm still fairly new to Pathfinder and even tabletop gaming in general. I don't entirely understand the full scope of different bonuses.
I only suggested Sneakspell because it seemed like the Pathfinder translation of the 3.5 bonuses. I honestly thought it would be less powerful in the long run without the ability to overcome SR and the DC was a boost from +2 to +3, not +4.
I also never meant to imply the other abilities I mentioned should be added without consequence to any of the orders/archetypes. I assumed it would replace trapfinding or possibly be another option for a talent, but mostly wanted to just pass along relevant ideas to ertw for him to make the call.
My motivation has been to help ertw to repay him for all of the hard work he's done. Most of my suggestions have been more for Theurgic Brigand because that's the archetype I've been studying the most.
I apologize for kind of being the noob that jumps in the middle of a thread throwing unqualified ideas into an already mostly stable build. I appreciate the apology, but your criticism was not without merit.
I'll back off to keep the thread clean. I'll PM ertw if I think of anything significant. Sorry again, everyone.
I can see how a stealth specialist in a class that's already pretty great at stealth might be a little underwhelming. Your suggestion gave me an idea to work with, I'll let you know when I hammer out the details.
I could potentially offer streetwise for the theurgic brigand in lieu of trapfinding. Which of those two abilities do you think would you prefer to have?
I think Streetwise. Definitely has that urban, Aladdin-stealing-fruit feel.
And for the record, my vote would be to keep the BAB as is. This class feels very powerful. Something else would probably have to be lowered to keep it balanced.
Great contributions, LT Silverstar. I agree with most of those comments.
ertw, have you considered adjusting the Cloaked Casting stats to that of Sneakspell? Also, I thought the Master of Deception ability from that archetype was pretty cool.
I noticed Theurgic Brigands gain weapon proficiency with the sap. Maybe you could add a sap talent to knock targets unconscious or something? And/or maybe a magic sap item since the archetypes don't get the raiment bonuses?
Edit: Streetwise might be another good advanced talent. Sorry... I've just been browsing Bard archetypes for a friend and keep seeing Beguiler potential haha.
I think you may be misinterpreting that bit about spells. As I read it, this feat seems to be something more along the lines of the elf-blood effect that half-elves get. My interpretation is that, if your changeling shapechanged into an elf, he would be treated as an elf for spells that specifically effect (or don't effect) elves. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that by changing shape your character would suddenly know how to cast a new spell (or that he'd suddenly forget it when he shapechanged into something else). This is just my interpretation and you're free to disagree, but if I were you I'd check that with your DM because his interpretation is the final word at his table.
I emailed the guy who put together that conversion and and asked "With this feat would changing to a certain race qualify me to use their racial spells? For example while in the form of a Tengu could I cast Theft Ward if it's available to my class?"
His response: "I would say yes, but then there is the question of getting the spell in the first place. If I was the GM, that would be a undercover operation to infiltrate a tengu community to get it. If it was found in random treasure, that would be a little careless in my opinion."
It still only grants me access to about half of the racial spells, though, since I can't change to a small size or outsider. I'm actually glad you said something, too, because before I didn't realize I couldn't change to Undines, Aasimars, etc.
Yeah, its meant to be a sorcerer bloodline that your character qualifies for, so Kobold and Imperious bloodlines are off the table unless you're a kobold or human respectively.
That's too bad. Almost worth being a Kobold just to get that bloodline. Almost... :)
I think you may be misinterpreting that bit about spells. As I read it, this feat seems to be something more along the lines of the elf-blood effect that half-elves get. My interpretation is that, if your changeling shapechanged into an elf, he would be treated as an elf for spells that specifically effect (or don't effect) elves. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that by changing shape your character would suddenly know how to cast a new spell (or that he'd suddenly forget it when he shapechanged into something else). This is just my interpretation and you're free to disagree, but if I were you I'd check that with your DM because his interpretation is the final word at his table.
Yeah I'm definitely going to check with him, but I don't think of it so much as knowing/forgetting a spell as having the genetic ability to cast it, if that makes sense.
Benefit: When using your shapechange ability, you take on the subtype of the humanoid you are disguised as. You still retain your shapechanger subtype, but you now also qualify as the mimicked humanoid subtype for the purposes of magical items, spells or other effects. If the subtype you are disguised as low-light vision, darkvision (up to 60') or the scent ability, you do as well so long as you are disguised like that subtype.
Awesome, thanks! I thought about suggesting the Eldritch Heritage feat for inspiration. Sorcerer bloodlines definitely play into the natural inborn talent and "could have made her way in the world as a sorcerer" parts. Very cool.
I like Gutterblood Magic, too (Harry Potter reference?). I'll probably take Undine to get Nereid's Grace and Nixie's Lure.
Fugitive’s Foresight will be invaluable for my character. Perfect!
Looks like you added Knowledge (Engineering) too. Interesting.
ertw wrote:
I'd have figured that Charmer, Coax Information, and Honeyed Words would appeal to the high Charisma set.
They totally did at first, but since they're only once daily's and you must select them before a check I decided I would more likely just take Memory Lapse with Stolen Knowledge and use that to assist my manipulation and take other talents.
From your wording I'm not sure about the issue you're finding. Is it that there aren't enough to choose from, that you aren't finding ones that are to your liking or that the brigand doesn't get to select enough of them?
Sorry. Just doesn't seem like there are many choices. Would be nice to see some that aren't rogue talents, too. I think they get to choose enough and I do like some of them. Maybe some more that could play off the high charisma? Up to you, just a thought.
Edit: Or maybe something with Detect Law/Dispel Law or Urban Grace to play to the theme?
Thanks for the text version. Decided to go with Theurgic Brigand since the idea for my character is more charisma based. Seems like there aren't a lot of talents, though. Thoughts?
Amazing layout. I'll be playing a beguiler on a 3.5 converted changeling (Races of Eberron) in an evil campaign. I'll let you know if I have any more thoughts. Still trying to decide which order/archetype to take.
Just to check, though... The Theurgic Brigand cannot do independent research in enchantment/illusion, correct? At 4th level they only have access to Bard spells via Stolen Knowledge?
She still needs to succeed on a melee touch attack (with zero BAB and likely a low Str mod) and can only do it 3 + her Int mod times per day. It ends up being fairly comparable to a 1st level Witch using the slumber hex, except that the Witch can use her hex as many times per day she wants and the hex's save DC works off of her Int mod (the Witch's casting stat) instead of what is likely to be a dump stat.
But doesn't a touch attack disregard armor/shield bonuses? Without dexterity either, that's a pretty low AC.
The Shadow’s Kin ability also concerned me. At level 1 this would rival the Vanishing Trick of my level 5 ninja I've been playing (who already feels pleasantly overpowered at times).
Don't get me wrong, I love the build, just don't want to feel guilty being unbalanced with my party.
I created a paizo account just to respond to this thread. Thank you so much for this. Exactly what I needed for the campaign I'm entering. I was unable to get access to this latest pdf however :(
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