Beguiler conversion for Pathfinder


Conversions

151 to 200 of 833 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Btw, I've had 3 sessions so far with my Beguiler and it's going great.

That's great to hear, I'm glad you're having fun with it!


One thing I'm noticing as I'm looking at effective ways to run the beguiler for high level play is that all of the 9th level spells seem lackluster. For a full caster, there should be something there that's really powerful: a signature spell for the class that gives them demigod-like powers over their particular magical domain. The beguiler seems to lack something like this since most 9th level illusion spells are too offensive for their spell list and most 9th level enchantment spells are just modifications of lower level spells. Have you considered giving the beguiler something like superior invisibility?


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
One thing I'm noticing as I'm looking at effective ways to run the beguiler for high level play is that all of the 9th level spells seem lackluster. For a full caster, there should be something there that's really powerful: a signature spell for the class that gives them demigod-like powers over their particular magical domain. The beguiler seems to lack something like this since most 9th level illusion spells are too offensive for their spell list and most 9th level enchantment spells are just modifications of lower level spells. Have you considered giving the beguiler something like superior invisibility?

I too was underwhelmed by the level 9 spells available to the beguiler, but couldn't find something that fit well with the class (as you said they're either outside the target schools or too damaging). Superior invisibility might actually be just the thing I've been looking for. It might take a little tweaking, but I'll see what I can put together.


Nava's Manifestation of Nothingness:

Nava's Manifestation of Nothingness

School illusion (glamer); Level beguiler 9
Components S, M (a short length of black ribbon)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level (D)

This powerful glamer functions like greater invisibility, except that it masks the beguiler's image, scent, and sound alike; nor does she leave behind mundane evidence in the form of footprints. While invisible, she is concealed from all senses except touch; she cannot be detected by scent, blindsense, termorsense, or blindsight.

While this spell stops all sound eminating from the beguiler, she remains able to hear as normal while invisible. She cannot communicate verbally with any other creature, but remains able to cast spells with verbal components.

The beguiler is also rendered immune to most magical forms of detection, including see invisibility, faerie fire, glitterdust, invisiblity purge, and dust of appearance. She can only be detected by true seeing or similar magic.


The question is: does it pass the flour test?


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
The question is: does it pass the flour test?

I'm sorry, I don't follow.


ertw wrote:
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
The question is: does it pass the flour test?
I'm sorry, I don't follow.

One of the easiest ways to break invisibility is to just carry a bag of flour and throw it around when enemies go invisible. I was wondering if this spell would be so easily defeated.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
One of the easiest ways to break invisibility is to just carry a bag of flour and throw it around when enemies go invisible. I was wondering if this spell would be so easily defeated.

I wouldn't want that kind of basic vulnerability for a top tier spell, I'll update the section regarding footprints to mention things like dust or flour passing through the beguiler while she's invisible.


In the spirit of top tier spells, what about something like a Mass Modify Memory. That seems like it would be the ultimate beguiling. Make a crowd or group of enemies forget an incriminating event or something.

Oh gosh... Like the Men in Black neuralyzer.


Dot for eventually... maybe.


StealthDiabeetis wrote:

In the spirit of top tier spells, what about something like a Mass Modify Memory. That seems like it would be the ultimate beguiling. Make a crowd or group of enemies forget an incriminating event or something.

Oh gosh... Like the Men in Black neuralyzer.

Definitely a cool idea. What's your character's name?


ertw wrote:
StealthDiabeetis wrote:

In the spirit of top tier spells, what about something like a Mass Modify Memory. That seems like it would be the ultimate beguiling. Make a crowd or group of enemies forget an incriminating event or something.

Oh gosh... Like the Men in Black neuralyzer.

Definitely a cool idea. What's your character's name?

Haha... His name is Tyrone Aargh


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Tyrone's Mind Eraser:

Tyrone's Mind Eraser

School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level beguiler 9
Targets one living creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 feet apart

This spell functions like modify memory, except as noted above and as follows. All targets of the spell who fail their Will saves become fascinated by the beguiler while she forms their new memories. She only requires 1 minute of concentration after the spell is cast to modify up to 5 minutes of the targets' memories. Once the new memories are formed the targets' fascination is broken and the spell ends.


ertw wrote:
Tyrone's Mind Eraser:

rofl it sounds like a drink you'd order at a seedy tavern... and that is absolutely perfect for a beguiler spell :p


Hahaha. I love it.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Sorry for the delay in my summary of our playtest, I've been sick as a dog for the last week. I'll start off with the cast of characters we play with, one build for each order/archetype. They all shared the same stat rolls (we do 5d6 drop the two lowest) the resulting array was: 18, 16, 15, 14, 10, 9.

Here are our six beguilers at level one(stat boosts and penalties in brackets, alternate racial traits in square brackets).

arcane hand build - Human (+2 int) [silver tongued]:
Lady Seriana "Bragg" Braggard
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 9, Cha 15.
Born of noble parents, heiress to her family's title. As an act of rebellion against her parents she joined the beguiler's guild instead of entering the local wizard's college. Narcisistic, selfish, unyielding.

wandering heart build - Ifrit (+2 dex, +2 cha, -2 wis) [efreeti magic, hypnotic, wildfire heart]:
Ember Strongheart
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 7, Cha 18.
Her efreeti father left his elemental home when he fell in love with her human mother. As her mother died in childbirth, he was left to raise her in this strange new land. When she came of age she struck out on her own and left her small village for the big city. Quickly finding herself in trouble, she joined the beguiler's guild to pay off the debt of their protection. Beautiful, coy, sweet.

baleful shadow build - Wayang (+2 dex, +2 int, -2 wis):
Fidgit
Str 15, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 20, Wis 7, Cha 14.
He doesn't like to talk about his past, nobody's quite sure of where he came from. He found the secret, underground headquarters of a beguiler's guild and they haven't been able to get rid of him since. Insane, offputting, flighty.

ghastly claw build - Sylph (+2 dex, +2 int, -2 con) [breeze-kissed, like the wind]:
Luro Akaash
Str 15, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 9, Cha 10.
Orphaned because of his mixed blood, he carved a home for himself in the ghettos. By age five he was leading a gang of homeless orphans that eventually ran the local mob out of town. Over the years, stealing no longer satisfied him and he sought out new thrills as an assassin amongst the beguilers. Strong, unfeeling, ambitious.

theurgic brigand build - Fetchling (+2 dex, +2 cha, -2 wis) [shadow magic, subtle manipulator, world walker]:
Jegan "Jiggy" Anto
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 7, Cha 20.
Bastard son of the king of the realm and a fetchling emmisary, neither race wanted to claim him as their own. The captain of the king's guard was ordered to kill the infant, but he couldn't bring himself to do it. Instead the child was smuggled to another city where he was adopted by a wealthy family of gnomes. Despite the unknown nature of his magic, he was honored to be accepted into the clan of wizards that ran the city when he came of age. He later learned that this was actually a front for a guild of beguilers, but didn't mind as long as he still got paid. Friendly, sarcastic, calculating.

elusive wildling build - Kitsune (+2 dex, +2 cha, -2 str):
Cassandra Silvermane
Str 13, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 20.
Born to a xenophobic group of kitsune druids, she always thirsted to explore the world outside of her grove. She was excommunicated because of her curiosity and the strange magic that manifested within her. She survived in the wild along the outskirts of a small farming village, spying on the residents and learning their ways. Eventually she found a new home among a travelling band of druids who were willing to teach her how to blend in among humans. Adaptible, calm, kind.

As you can see we had a lot of fun just putting these characters together. We ran them at level one and then leveled them up to ten to run them through some more tests (our next session will be a level twenty one-off mission that should be a lot of fun). Here's a summary of our conclusions so far.

Skills: As expected, the class works well as a skill monkey. Tons of Int guaranteed this for all but our elusive wildling. Any obstacle that could be solved with a reasonable skill check (ex. no jumping across a 100 ft. gorge) were successful most of the time.

As I mentioned earlier, sometimes spells can get in the way of skill-based encounters. The biggest offenders were spider climb breaking climb checks and teleport spells breaking hazard crossings. The new teleport spell looks really great and steps on the chasm crossing issue; though it can still be used to break a grapple without an escape artist check if it's cast stilled.

Combat: The higher BAB definitely helped to make this class more capable in combat. When forced into straight combat (no magic), the beguilers weren't useless, but often had trouble with groups of martial opponents. Armor, weapon proficiency and better hit dice make the class more robust in straight combat than your typical arcane casters. Straight combat was still pretty difficult at level 1 when they were pitted against full BAB enemies.

Spells: The illusion/enchantment spell list is pretty fun at lower levels. I think my favorite move was when Mark decided to use silent image at level 1 to imitate a level 20 beguiler's aspect in order to intimidate a group of guards (this was in an area where beguilers were well known). While the spell list was still quite useful at level 10, but looking ahead we saw the high level spell list was a little lacking.

The two new spells you've done over the last few days ought to do a lot towards making that issue better. The invisibilty spell is definitely useful for all beguilers and offers tools not available elsewhere. It's an interesting choice not to have verbal components to the spell since it couldn't otherwise be silenced, but I think that might be a bit too advantageous. The modify memory spell is also pretty great (especially since modify memory is only available to theurgic brigands), but it still seems a little underwhelming to be its own spell at level 9: it doesn't add a whole lot of new functionality to modify memory other than the increased number of targets. I wonder if this might work better if modify memory was added to the beguiler spell list and a new metamagic feat was added that allowed an enchantment spell with one target to be applied to multiple targets for a +4 spell level bump. Just a thought.

Class features: cloaked/surprise casting and feinting are pretty effective and will only get more effective as feinting becomes a swift action and the save DCs are better.

Orders: The orders all have their strengths and weaknesses and actually seem pretty well balanced.
Arcane Hand: Loads of casting options with a pretty rich bonus spell list (arcane hand gave us the most trouble when it came to deciding which spells we wanted to add to our list because we wanted them all). We were using false theurgy for pretty much every cast to give decent protection from dispelling, though swift feinting might take a bite out of that. We went with a familiar at level 1 (a black cat) and it was a pretty nice thematic option for RP, but not quite as powerful as most of the other level 1 order powers.
Wandering Heart: We had a ball RPing a mousey, reluctant seductress with Ember. Charmed casting wasn't much use at level 1, but at level 10 it let us use silent or stilled spells liberally. Still seems a little disappointing not to be able to use the level 1 order power until level 5 without increasing casting time. Maybe a CL bump alongside the metamagic option would make this more interesting. Enchanted casting is great, combined with charmed casting we only really needed to put ranks in one perform (we chose dance) to disguise all her casts. I'm interested to see how beguiling aura is going to work out at level 20.
Baleful Shadow: This was quite a stand out in combat. The extra damage of the shadow strike (there's already a feat with this name, BTW, so you might want to figure out a new one to avoid confusion) was quite noticeable at low levels. Shadow evocation makes it even more dangerous at level 10 (which will only get better with shadow magic at level 13). We didn't use the entangle ability much, but it was pretty critical when we were fleeing from mercenaries through a busy city. Shadow weapon made for a great thematic ability, but I feel like this could be improved if somewhere along the line the spell had a longer duration (I'd love to have a baleful shadow that always used his shadow dagger).
Ghastly Claw: Crummy rolls hampered most of the paralysis options for the ghastly claw at level 1 as Mark said, but that's how the cookie crumbles for these kinds of powers for low level characters. It was a lot more useful at level 10 and the save was the only real decider on this one. I had gone into this playtest thinking that the save might be better replaced by a simple HD cap (ex. it only works on an enemy with HD less than or equal to your beguiler level), but during play the variability the save gave made it more interesting. Coup de grace as a standard action is a mean trick, but still had to be used pretty strategically and was often only used to drop the last foe in an encounter.
Theurgic Brigand: Plays very much like a rogue with a decent set of spells to aid him. Lots of decent options for talents, though fugitive's foresight stands out for the advanced talent to pick up at level 9. We built him as a ranged character so we could dump Str, though the low Wis we picked for him bit us a few times when he had to make will saves.
Elusive Wildling: Gina had a ton of fun with Cassandra. Just like with the pack lord druid, boon companion is a must have feat for this archetype. The companions can be pretty powerful if you design them right (at level 10 she had a level 10 badger, a level 4 eagle and all her nature's allies on top of them, all of which were vital in some of the grittier battles) Skills are where she fell a little short. Because she dumped int she was a lot more limited than I was expecting in this regard. That said, she works well in a group of beguilers who can cover up the skills she's lacking.

All in all, everything seems to have a bit of a handicap and a fairly decent set of advantages. I'm looking forward to seeing how we do with the high level adventure next time we get to play testing.


LT Silverstar wrote:
The modify memory spell is also pretty great (especially since modify memory is only available to theurgic brigands), but it still seems a little underwhelming to be its own spell at level 9: it doesn't add a whole lot of new functionality to modify memory other than the increased number of targets. I wonder if this might work better if modify memory was added to the beguiler spell list and a new metamagic feat was added that allowed an enchantment spell with one target to be applied to multiple targets for a +4 spell level bump. Just a thought.

I'm not so sure that's the right way to go with this. I like the spell, the fascination keeps people from walking out of range of the spell to break it (and fits really amusingly with the MIB imagery StealthDiabeetis used to describe the idea) which is a decent power-up. Turning it into a metamagic feat is problematic because you'd have to figure out which spells might be an issue when applied to multiple targets and there's also the issue of increased casting times that plagues spontaneous spellcasters. IMHO leaving Tyrone's Mind Eraser in its current form is the best idea.

LT Silverstar wrote:
Shadow weapon made for a great thematic ability, but I feel like this could be improved if somewhere along the line the spell had a longer duration (I'd love to have a baleful shadow that always used his shadow dagger).

That's a really cool idea, did it just come to you recently? You didn't mention it during the playtest. Are you thinking something like the magus' blackblade?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
ertw wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

If I may suggest a slight alteration, due to the existence of a current (if 3rd Party) similar spell and the modify memory spell itself:

Tyrone's Mind Eraser:

Tyrone's Mind Eraser
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level beguiler 9
Targets one living creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 feet apart

This spell functions like mass modify memory, except as noted above and as follows. All targets of the spell who fail their Will saves become fascinated by the beguiler while she forms their new memories. She only requires 1 minute of concentration after the spell is cast to modify up to 10 minutes of the targets' memories, and can concentrate for up to 1 minute/2 caster levels (to a maximum of 10 minutes). Once the new memories are formed the targets' fascination is broken and the spell ends.

The reasons for these changes are:
1) It feels more like a ninth level spell
2) Being restricted to Beguiler's only means it's likely to be a bit more powerful - it's their own special "thing" that's just for them, after a fashion
3) Much like the original, it does several things other than increase the amount of targets that can be hit; however, I don't think that this is a breaking-level power. The fascination effect that was already there was a nice touch, true, but it didn't seem like a "seal the deal" so to speak and, by allowing for an increased concentration-time, you can imitate effects more along the lines of, say, the MIB.
4) The existence of a mass modify memory spell, even if third party, made it feel like the ante should be upped a bit.
5) (Unrelated): I do think that beguilers should get modify memory (and the mass version, if you're okay with allowing other third-party material).

As always, feel free to take or ignore whatever you like. :D

As far as the feat goes, I could see it as being a good idea, though not necessarily replacing Tyrone's Mind Eraser (either the original or my suggested tweaked one above).

Simply have the feat note that any spell that is a single-target spell with a range other than touch or personal has the target entry change to, "one target per caster level, so long as no two of the targets are more than 30 ft. apart." and requires a +4 on the level increase. This allows research of specific spells that go along similar lines, but be a bit easier to deal with (for various reasons) while also allowing a flexibility currently lacking.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
LT Silverstar wrote:
Shadow weapon made for a great thematic ability, but I feel like this could be improved if somewhere along the line the spell had a longer duration (I'd love to have a baleful shadow that always used his shadow dagger).
That's a really cool idea, did it just come to you recently? You didn't mention it during the playtest. Are you thinking something like the magus' blackblade?

I could have sworn I mentioned it during the playtest, but given the last week that may have been a fever dream :p I was thinking of something along the lines of making shadow weapon a cantrip or significantly increasing the duration of the spell at some point, but the black blade is an intriguing option. Here's a quick framework for a potential baleful shadow rebuild

  • level 1 power remains the same
  • level 7 power is replaced by the black blade at effective magus level beguiler-4. Beguiler doesn't get an arcane pool, but when casting shadow weapon the +1 (@level 5) and keen/frost/+2 (@level 10) enhancements are bestowed upon the black blade. The blade still gets its arcane pool for use in black blade strikes and the like. Since the beguiler doesn't have an arcane pool I'd give him spell defense instead of transfer arcana at level 17. As with shadow weapon, d6's are used for a shadow strike with a black blade.
  • level 13 power gives some kind of bonus to shadow strikes with the black blade. I'd say make it a full-round action to prevent cheese (player has to decide whether he wants multiple attacks or one massive attack and can't use it to coup de grace). Something like d12 damage dice, or an automatic crit threat.

The loss of entangling darkness isn't too big of a loss (as I mentioned above it's very situationally useful). Shadow magic is a bigger loss, but I was honestly concerned that it might end up being overpowered (imagine casting chain lightning or delayed blast fireball at max level for 20d6+5d8 damage).


Tacticslion wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

I like this version of Tyrone's mind eraser. As you say, it's a more empowered version without going overboard.


LT Silverstar and Penumbral Shadow, those are some really interesting characters you've put together. When I make characters I usually end up with pages of backstory that makes my GM roll his eyes, but you've managed to give a great feel for the characters in just a few sentences!

LT Silverstar wrote:
I wonder if this might work better if modify memory was added to the beguiler spell list and a new metamagic feat was added that allowed an enchantment spell with one target to be applied to multiple targets for a +4 spell level bump. Just a thought.

I think the suggestion that Tacticslion made helps to improve the power level of the spell and adds more functionality to it. I'm not crazy about the idea of adding new metamagic feats as part of the beguiler conversion since, as Penumbral Shadow pointed out, these aren't great for spontaneous casters, but I could definitely imagine such a spell that would work well for wizards.

LT Silverstar wrote:
Charmed casting wasn't much use at level 1, but at level 10 it let us use silent or stilled spells liberally. Still seems a little disappointing not to be able to use the level 1 order power until level 5 without increasing casting time. Maybe a CL bump alongside the metamagic option would make this more interesting.

That's a great idea, I hadn't thought about the 1st level issue. I'll add a +2 to CL to that.

LT Silverstar wrote:
there's already a feat with this name, BTW, so you might want to figure out a new one to avoid confusion

Woops. I'll try to come up with something that works in my next revision.

LT Silverstar wrote:
All in all, everything seems to have a bit of a handicap and a fairly decent set of advantages. I'm looking forward to seeing how we do with the high level adventure next time we get to play testing.

I'm glad you're having fun with the class and look forward to hearing more of your adventures.

Tacticslion wrote:

The reasons for these changes are:

1) It feels more like a ninth level spell
2) Being restricted to Beguiler's only means it's likely to be a bit more powerful - it's their own special "thing" that's just for them, after a fashion
3) Much like the original, it does several things other than increase the amount of targets that can be hit; however, I don't think that this is a breaking-level power. The fascination effect that was already there was a nice touch, true, but it didn't seem like a "seal the deal" so to speak and, by allowing for an increased concentration-time, you can imitate effects more along the lines of, say, the MIB.
4) The existence of a mass modify memory spell, even if third party, made it feel like the ante should be upped a bit.
5) (Unrelated): I do think that beguilers should get modify memory (and the mass version, if you're okay with allowing other third-party material).

I'll definitely include your changes to the final version of the spell, thank you for your input.

LT Silverstar wrote:
  • level 1 power remains the same
  • level 7 power is replaced by the black blade at effective magus level beguiler-4. Beguiler doesn't get an arcane pool, but when casting shadow weapon the +1 (@level 5) and keen/frost/+2 (@level 10) enhancements are bestowed upon the black blade. The blade still gets its arcane pool for use in black blade strikes and the like. Since the beguiler doesn't have an arcane pool I'd give him spell defense instead of transfer arcana at level 17. As with shadow weapon, d6's are used for a shadow strike with a black blade.
  • level 13 power gives some kind of bonus to shadow strikes with the black blade. I'd say make it a full-round action to prevent cheese (player has to decide whether he wants multiple attacks or one massive attack and can't use it to coup de grace). Something like d12 damage dice, or an automatic crit threat.

That is an aspect I hadn't considered and it's certainly interesting. However, I had meant the baleful shadow and ghastly claw to be two sides of the same coin; both powerful combatants with the baleful shadow specializing in magic and the ghastly claw focusing on martial combat. I feel like this kind of change would bring them too close together.


Glad you like it! I've always loved the beguilers... and never had the chance to actually play them in real games. :/

(No one wants to play a game with me having mind-control...)
EDIT: I still play characters with mind-control... >:)

I also wanted to say, your formatting work is mind-blowingly well done. Absolutely fantastic. I really like what I've seen of your stuff so far. It looks an awful lot like I've always thought Beguilers should look. I'm one of those that mourns the skill-loss, but I'm not going to fight it, as it makes sense*, and adding. I did wanted to mention, that there is no way that Beguilers are better skill monkeys than standard bards, for the simple reason that versatile performance exists - with that one ability, a bard effectively gains two additional skills, or rather, they gain one more skill per skill-point spent; now, granted, they can only gain so many different skills**, and they gain them in lumps, and there is overlap on many of the different perform types, but they still can get up to effectively eight additional skills known (or, if you don't count their perform skill, up to four additional skills), if they're careful with their performance-type selection***. As the beguilers have nothing like that, they're not going to compete - I really doubt a beguiler is going to suddenly sprout a +16 increase to their intelligence (+18, really for perform, or, if you want to get really technical and include the four additional bard skills, +24) over a given bard. :)

THAT SAID, I'm not arguing for beguilers to gain more skill points (outside of the archetype; a great choice!), but rather just to explain that idea.

* For one, there are fewer skills now. For two, it differentiates a beguiler from a bard a bit more.

** Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate, Acrobatics, Fly, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Handle Animal, to be precise.

*** Specifically, if they choose Act (Bluff, Disguise), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), and Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive) they cover all of their possible skill sets, require absolutely nothing in terms of equipment ("percussion" can be done with rocks, sticks, hands, or anything else), and it's basically pure win. They do have to choose, however, at 2nd, 6th, and 10th; but by 14th, they've got all they need to: the 18th one is just kind of "meh", since they have all of their skills already.


Ertw wrote:
That is an aspect I hadn't considered and it's certainly interesting. However, I had meant the baleful shadow and ghastly claw to be two sides of the same coin; both powerful combatants with the baleful shadow specializing in magic and the ghastly claw focusing on martial combat. I feel like this kind of change would bring them too close together.

I feel like the way the classes are now they both blend into a kind of sameyness. While you say ghastly claw is meant to be a martial power, their powers seem to build towards ranged paralysis with spectral hand and the spell kill ability: this feels more magic based than pure martial. By moving the baleful shadow towards a sneak attack-blackblade kind of progression they become the defacto martial power for beguilers.


Tacticslion wrote:
I also wanted to say, your formatting work is mind-blowingly well done. Absolutely fantastic. I really like what I've seen of your stuff so far. It looks an awful lot like I've always thought Beguilers should look.

Thank you so much :D

Tacticslion wrote:

I'm one of those that mourns the skill-loss, but I'm not going to fight it, as it makes sense*, and adding. I did wanted to mention, that there is no way that Beguilers are better skill monkeys than standard bards, for the simple reason that versatile performance exists - with that one ability, a bard effectively gains two additional skills, or rather, they gain one more skill per skill-point spent; now, granted, they can only gain so many different skills**, and they gain them in lumps, and there is overlap on many of the different perform types, but they still can get up to effectively eight additional skills known (or, if you don't count their perform skill, up to four additional skills), if they're careful with their performance-type selection***. As the beguilers have nothing like that, they're not going to compete - I really doubt a beguiler is going to suddenly sprout a +16 increase to their intelligence (+18, really for perform, or, if you want to get really technical and include the four additional bard skills, +24) over a given bard. :)

THAT SAID, I'm not arguing for beguilers to gain more skill points (outside of the archetype; a great choice!), but rather just to explain that idea.

Good points. I had initially resisted the skill decrease (like the BAB increase) in order to stay truer to the original class, but it has evolved while I've been putting it together into something that is its own animal.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I feel like the way the classes are now they both blend into a kind of sameyness. While you say ghastly claw is meant to be a martial power, their powers seem to build towards ranged paralysis with spectral hand and the spell kill ability: this feels more magic based than pure martial. By moving the baleful shadow towards a sneak attack-blackblade kind of progression they become the defacto martial power for beguilers.

I hadn't really looked at it like that, but you do make some very interesting points and I can see Lt Silverstar's point about shadow magic potentially being too powerful, too. I'll have to take some time to digest this idea and see if I can turn it into something along the lines of your suggestions.


Here's what I'm thinking as a potential rebuild for the baleful shadow:


  • Level 1 - Now called wraith strike. Number of damage dice now increases every three levels instead of every four.
  • Level 7 - As LT Silverstar suggested. Might move damage dice for black blade to d8s.
  • Level 13 - I'm thinking about a deep bond forming between beguiler and black blade. The black blade's arcane pool is now determined be the best Int modifier between it and the beguiler. I'm considering a few options for new arcane pool abilities for the blade: 1) spend pool points to treat beguiler level as BAB for a round (good for extra attacks on full attack). 2) spend pool points to cast shadow conjuration or greater shadow conjuration as a spell like ability.
    I'd be open to other suggestions here, too.


For the Theurgic Brigand ability Stolen Knowledge, can you attempt to fool more bards until you pass the bluff check or if you fail are you screwed?


StealthDiabeetis wrote:
For the Theurgic Brigand ability Stolen Knowledge, can you attempt to fool more bards until you pass the bluff check or if you fail are you screwed?

It's just one attempt (every four levels), however if you're keeping maximum ranks in Bluff and have at least 14 Cha it's impossible to fail the check at any level.


ertw wrote:

Here's what I'm thinking as a potential rebuild for the baleful shadow:


  • Level 1 - Now called wraith strike. Number of damage dice now increases every three levels instead of every four.
  • Level 7 - As LT Silverstar suggested. Might move damage dice for black blade to d8s.
  • Level 13 - I'm thinking about a deep bond forming between beguiler and black blade. The black blade's arcane pool is now determined be the best Int modifier between it and the beguiler. I'm considering a few options for new arcane pool abilities for the blade: 1) spend pool points to treat beguiler level as BAB for a round (good for extra attacks on full attack). 2) spend pool points to cast shadow conjuration or greater shadow conjuration as a spell like ability.
    I'd be open to other suggestions here, too.

Ooo, nice ideas. Maybe the level 13 ability would allow the beguiler and the black blade to share a common arcane pool (that's why the pool size is determined by greatest int). Throw in a magus arcana from a fixed list at levels 13, 16 and 19. You could include the two you mention as well as any others you see fit from this list. You'd want to stick to arcanas that draw from the arcane pool and I'd probably steer clear of Ultimate Eldrich Athame and other arcanas that add specific abilities to the blade (keep that to the realm of the magus).

ertw wrote:
StealthDiabeetis wrote:
For the Theurgic Brigand ability Stolen Knowledge, can you attempt to fool more bards until you pass the bluff check or if you fail are you screwed?
It's just one attempt (every four levels), however if you're keeping maximum ranks in Bluff and have at least 14 Cha it's impossible to fail the check at any level.

Are you sure your math is right? The hardest check to make will be a level 2 spell for a 4th level beguiler. The DC of the check is 12. The beguiler gets 4 ranks from max training, a +3 bonus from it being a class skill, at least +1 from the roll of the dice. In order to automatically pass the check, he'd need a +4 from cha to make the DC 12, which is 18 not 14.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Here's what I have for the reworked baleful shadow order:

Order of the Baleful Shadow:

Order of the Baleful Shadow

Wraith Strike (Su): At 1st level, a beguiler can strike a vital spot for extra damage against an opponent who is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack.

The beguiler's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not). This extra damage is 1d4 at 1st level, and increases by 1d4 every three beguiler levels thereafter. Should the beguiler score a critical hit with a wraith strike, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as a wraith strike only if the target is within 30 feet. Any foe that is immune to sneak attack damage is also immune to this extra damage.

In any condition of illumination other than bright light, or if she is striking with a weapon created by the shadow weapon spell, a beguiler is able to empower her wraith strike with dark magic. While making a wraith strike when she is located within such lighting conditions, she uses d6s to roll wraith strike damage instead of d4s. If her target disbelieves the illusion of a shadow weapon he takes no extra damage from this ability.

At 9th level, a beguiler's ranged attack counts as a wraith strike if the target is within 60 feet.

Black Blade (Ex): At 7th level, a beguiler summons a black blade to her side from the shadow realm. She gains the bladebound magus archetype's black blade class feature, except that the beguiler's effective magus level is equal to her beguiler level - 4. While this does not provide the beguiler with access to an arcane pool, the black blade is still able to make use of its arcane pool as it desires. When making a wraith strike with her black blade, a beguiler uses d8s to roll wraith strike damage instead of d4s.

While the beguiler wields her black blade, she can choose to enhance it temporarily by casting the shadow weapon spell upon it. For the duration of the spell her black blade receives a +1 enhancement bonus that stacks with its existing weapon enhancement bonus to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this spell do not stack with themselves. At 10th level she can also provide her black blade with her choice of the frost or keen weapon properties.

At 17th level, the beguiler's black blade gains the spell defense ability instead of the transfer arcana ability.

Blade Bound (Su): At 13th level, a beguiler forms a supernatural bond with her black blade. The two now share an arcane pool with a number of points equal to 1 + the greater of the two's Intelligence bonus. The beguiler also gains a single beguiling trick from the following list at 13th level, and a subsequent trick every 3 levels thereafter. She cannot select an individual trick more than once. Tricks marked with * cannot be selected until 16th level.


  • Arcane Cloak (Su): The beguiler can expend 1 point from her arcane pool to add her Intelligence bonus to Stealth checks and Bluff checks to create a diversion in order to hide. This bonus lasts for 1 minute.

  • Arcane Edge (Su): The beguiler can expend 1 point from her arcane pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with her black blade in order to deal an amount of bleed damage equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum 0).

  • Black Blade Ascendancy (Ex): The beguiler can spend 1 point from her arcane pool to empower a full-attack action with her black blade. For the purpose of these attacks, the beguiler's base attack bonus from her beguiler levels is equal to her beguiler level.

  • Dispelling Strike (Su): The beguiler can spend 1 or more points from her arcane pool as a swift action to imbue her black blade with a special power. If the weapon strikes a creature within the next minute, that creature is the subject of a targeted dispel magic using the beguiler's effective magus level as the caster level, except that this effect cannot dispel a spell of a level higher than the number of arcane pool points expended to activate this ability (treat higher-level spells as if they do not exist and apply the dispel attempt against the remaining spells with the highest caster level). Once the strike is made, the power dissipates, even if the dispell attempt is unsuccessful.

  • Lingering Pain (Su): The beguiler can expend 1 point from her arcane pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with her black blade. All damage from that attack (including extra damage from a wraith strike) is considered continuous damage for the purposes of any concentration checks made by the target prior to the beginning of the beguiler's next turn.

  • Prescient Defense (Su): The beguiler can expend 1 point from her arcane pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with a weapon attack, granting her a premonition of her enemy's intentions. The beguiler gains a bonus to her AC and on Reflex saves equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum 0) against attacks by that opponent until the beginning of her next turn.

  • Reflection* (Su): The beguiler can sacrifice 1 or more points from her arcane pool as an immediate action to reflect a spell back at its caster. This functions as spell turning, but only if the targeted spell is of a level equal to or lower than the number of points expended. If insufficient points are expended, they instead grant an insight bonus on any saving throws allowed by the spell, equal to the number of points spent.

  • Shadow Call* (Sp): The beguiler can expend 2 points from her arcane pool to create creatures and effects out of raw shadows. This ability functions as greater shadow conjuration using the beguiler's effective magus level as the caster level. The DC for this ability is Intelligence–based.

  • Spell Shield (Su): The beguiler can expend 1 point from her arcane pool as an immediate action to grant herself a shield bonus to AC equal to her Intelligence bonus until the end of her next turn.

Aspect of Mastery (Su): At 20th level a baleful shadow beguiler’s skin darkens, her eyes seem to glow with faint blue light and her body is shrouded by a black mist which flows off of her shoulders and back as her soul becomes one with the plane of shadow. In any condition of illumination other than bright light, she blends into the shadows, giving her concealment (20% miss chance). A beguiler can suspend or resume this protection as a free action. She also gains the ability to see perfectly in natural or magical darkness, as well as resistance to cold 10, and DR 5/slashing.

When her aspect is visible she receives a +5 luck bonus to Stealth checks.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Are you sure your math is right? The hardest check to make will be a level 2 spell for a 4th level beguiler. The DC of the check is 12. The beguiler gets 4 ranks from max training, a +3 bonus from it being a class skill, at least +1 from the roll of the dice. In order to automatically pass the check, he'd need a +4 from cha to make the DC 12, which is 18 not 14.

Streetwise gives a +2 bonus to Bluff at 4th level, that makes up the difference between 18 Cha (which is what I had originally come up with) and 14 Cha (which I edited in when I realized my mistake).


ertw wrote:

Here's what I have for the reworked baleful shadow order:

** spoiler omitted **

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Are you sure your math is right? The hardest check to make will be a level 2 spell for a 4th level beguiler. The DC of the check is 12. The beguiler gets 4 ranks from max training, a +3 bonus from it being a class skill, at least +1 from the roll of the dice. In order to automatically pass the check, he'd need a +4 from cha to make the DC 12, which is 18 not 14.
Streetwise gives a +2 bonus to Bluff at 4th level, that makes up the difference between 18 Cha (which is what I had originally come up with) and 14 Cha (which I edited in when I realized my mistake).

Good to know I'm not alone in forgetting about streetwise LOL. I wonder if Jiggy missed any saves because of that :P

The new baleful shadow looks really cool. We might have to rebuild Fidgit a little, but I don't think I could bear to change his race. A crazy little shadow bastard with a black blade will be hilarious.

Also since you've taken out entangling shadow, the drow favored class bonus will have to be reworked, just in case you forgot.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Also since you've taken out entangling shadow, the drow favored class bonus will have to be reworked, just in case you forgot.

Drow get the previous Fetchling bonus, Fetchlings get the previous Wayang bonus, Wayangs get "Add +1/2 point of damage to any illusion spells of the shadow subschool cast by the beguiler."


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Updated conversion documents:
Formatted PDF
Selectable PDF


OMGOMGOMG you named the invisibility spell after Fidgit! That's so cool! (You may have guessed that he was my favorite of these characters).

While looking at how to rebuild Fidgit I did realize something about the black blade. By the rules layed out in UM the black blade has to be a one handed slashing weapon (none on the beguiler proficiency list) or a rapier or a sword cane (not on the beguiler proficiency list), so the only real option for a balefule shadow is a rapier. Would it be possible to either include all categories of melee weapons and/or possibly give the beguiler proficiency with whichever weapon he picks?


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
OMGOMGOMG you named the invisibility spell after Fidgit! That's so cool! (You may have guessed that he was my favorite of these characters).

I'm glad you approve :D

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
While looking at how to rebuild Fidgit I did realize something about the black blade. By the rules layed out in UM the black blade has to be a one handed slashing weapon (none on the beguiler proficiency list) or a rapier or a sword cane (not on the beguiler proficiency list), so the only real option for a balefule shadow is a rapier. Would it be possible to either include all categories of melee weapons and/or possibly give the beguiler proficiency with whichever weapon he picks?

That's a good catch. I'll have to think about how best to handle that.


Here's what I came up with for the Black Blade ability (changes highlighted in ooc format):

Black Blade:

Black Blade (Ex): At 7th level, a beguiler summons a powerful weapon to her side from the shadow realm. She gains the bladebound magus archetype's black blade class feature, except that the beguiler's effective magus level is equal to her beguiler level - 4. The beguiler’s black blade must be a rapier, a short sword, a sword cane, or any light or one-handed slashing melee weapon from the simple or martial category. If she selects a black blade with which she is not proficient, she gains the required proficiency only while she wields the black blade.

While this ability does not provide the beguiler with access to an arcane pool, the black blade is still able to make use of its arcane pool as it desires. When making a wraith strike with her black blade, a beguiler uses d8s to roll wraith strike damage instead of d4s.

While the beguiler wields her black blade, she can choose to enhance it temporarily by casting shadow weapon upon it. For the duration of the spell her black blade receives a +1 enhancement bonus that stacks with the black blade’s existing weapon enhancement bonus to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this spell do not stack with themselves. At 10th level shadow weapon can also provide her black blade with the beguiler’s choice of the frost or keen weapon properties. Foes who are struck with a black blade so enhanced do not receive a save to disbelieve these effects.

At 17th level, the beguiler's black blade gains the spell defense ability instead of the transfer arcana ability.

I've also added a new beguiling trick:

Shadow Spine:

Shadow Spine (Su): The beguiler can expend 1 point from her arcane pool as an immediate action after casting shadow weapon on her black blade to transform it into any piercing weapon with which she has proficiency; the weapon remains in this form for the duration of the spell, or until the transformation is dismissed by the beguiler (this does not end the enhancement bonuses conferred upon her black blade by the spell). The weapon retains the black blade’s bonus and abilities. The beguiler may transform the black blade into a ranged weapon, but she must supply ammunition as normal. Foes who are struck with a black blade so transformed do not receive a save to disbelieve these effects.

edit: updated both documents with the above changes.


ertw wrote:

Here's what I came up with for the Black Blade ability (changes highlighted in ooc format):

** spoiler omitted **

I've also added a new beguiling trick:

** spoiler omitted **...

Those are both great changes. Fidgit is going to kick all sorts of ass with his intelligent longsword that's nearly as crazy as he is!

I have a question about feats for baleful shadows. They have a lot of class features that draw off of other classes, namely the rogue's sneak attack and magus's black blade, arcana and arcane pools. Will feats designed to augment these abilities (like extra arcana and extra arcane pool) be able to work with the baleful shadow's order powers? Come to think of it, does the fact that the beguiler eventually gets an arcane pool allow her to use arcane pool points to enhance his weapon like a magus?


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I have a question about feats for baleful shadows. They have a lot of class features that draw off of other classes, namely the rogue's sneak attack and magus's black blade, arcana and arcane pools. Will feats designed to augment these abilities (like extra arcana and extra arcane pool) be able to work with the baleful shadow's order powers? Come to think of it, does the fact that the beguiler eventually gets an arcane pool allow her to use arcane pool points to enhance his weapon like a magus?

The basis I work with depends on the name of the class feature. Wraith strike is distinct from sneak attack despite similarity in function, so those feats would not apply to that ability. Likewise beguiling tricks are distinct from arcana despite overlap between the two. Extra arcane pool is a bit of a question mark, I'll have to think about that and maybe put in a clarification. The arcane pool does work differently from the magus, so it doesn't automatically pick up the enhancement functionality (the black blade itself has an ability that mirrors this, too).


ertw wrote:
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I have a question about feats for baleful shadows. They have a lot of class features that draw off of other classes, namely the rogue's sneak attack and magus's black blade, arcana and arcane pools. Will feats designed to augment these abilities (like extra arcana and extra arcane pool) be able to work with the baleful shadow's order powers? Come to think of it, does the fact that the beguiler eventually gets an arcane pool allow her to use arcane pool points to enhance his weapon like a magus?
The basis I work with depends on the name of the class feature. Wraith strike is distinct from sneak attack despite similarity in function, so those feats would not apply to that ability. Likewise beguiling tricks are distinct from arcana despite overlap between the two. Extra arcane pool is a bit of a question mark, I'll have to think about that and maybe put in a clarification. The arcane pool does work differently from the magus, so it doesn't automatically pick up the enhancement functionality (the black blade itself has an ability that mirrors this, too).

Thanks for the clarification.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Updated conversion documents:
Formatted PDF
Selectable PDF

Changes:

  • Added clarification about the baleful shadow's arcane pool.
  • Added a number of items of mundane beguiler equipment.
  • Added a number of beguiler feats.
  • Added a new spell: Vilda's Multiplying Image.


Woah, lots of new toys to play with! The new weapons are very cool. They give a really neat progression of stealthier to more obvious (boot>knee>wrist) that is opposed by how difficult it is to trigger and reset and how dangerous they are. You might consider adding a masterwork version of the wrist spring that can be built into armor like the knee blade and can accept a short sword instead of a dagger.

Shatterglass sounds absolutely beastly. I feel like the craft DC ought to be higher though. Your description seems to highlite how difficult it is to make, a DC 30 might be better for it. How does magical healing interact with the blindness (since a heal check cures it)?

I'm not sold on bottled invisibility, especially since the price is identical to a potion of invisibility which provides better cover.

The feats are decent. Artful misdirection and shrewd tactics are definitely must haves for any combat-focused beguiler. Master improviser really only useful in rare situations where you're without your tools. Studied metafocus seems decent for any beguiler, but I'd probably only want to take it once or twice for key spells (haste and mirror image).

The new spell is really neat. It helps to build up the mirror image spell which is vitally important to any beguiler wandering into combat without making it overpowered. Like the mass enchantment we discussed earlier, this could probably be turned into a unique metamagic feat.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Woah, lots of new toys to play with!

Glad you're looking forward to using them.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
You might consider adding a masterwork version of the wrist spring that can be built into armor like the knee blade and can accept a short sword instead of a dagger.

That could be a possibility. Do you think it would work best as a device like the wrist spring or a weapon like the knee blade?

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Shatterglass sounds absolutely beastly. I feel like the craft DC ought to be higher though. Your description seems to highlite how difficult it is to make, a DC 30 might be better for it.

Yeah, that makes sense, I'll increase the DC. The original idea was that they came from the shadow realm and could only be manufactured in the material realm in complete darkness.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
How does magical healing interact with the blindness (since a heal check cures it)?

Magical healing would also cure the blindness.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I'm not sold on bottled invisibility, especially since the price is identical to a potion of invisibility which provides better cover.

I looked over the document and noticed I had forgotten to mention that it also muffles sound (hence the total increase in Perception check DC to notice, not just to spot. It's essentially a weaker version of two individual 2nd level spells at the cost of one.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
The new spell is really neat. It helps to build up the mirror image spell which is vitally important to any beguiler wandering into combat without making it overpowered. Like the mass enchantment we discussed earlier, this could probably be turned into a unique metamagic feat.

I'm still not crazy about the idea of metamagic feats (since it tends to empower the arcane hand above other orders since they get all spontaneous metamagic without increased casting time at level 20). That said, with studied metafocus it might make sense to give the beguiler two unique metamagic feats (one enhancing illusions, one enhancing enchantments). I'll give that some thought to see what they might look like.


Very cool additions.

I'm with Penumbral Shadow on Master Improviser. I feel like as a feat it could be stronger. Maybe it could also apply to Artisan's Tools for Craft checks? I think that's the only other thing that requires tools to avoid a penalty. I still probably wouldn't take it, but it might give a little more MacGyver flavor to a character.

Also would the archetypes be able to substitute Charisma for Shrewd Tactics?


I've updated the links above with the changes Penumbral Shadow suggested. I've also added two new metamagic feats (mass enchantment and multiplying illusion).

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
I'm with Penumbral Shadow on Master Improviser. I feel like as a feat it could be stronger. Maybe it could also apply to Artisan's Tools for Craft checks? I think that's the only other thing that requires tools to avoid a penalty. I still probably wouldn't take it, but it might give a little more MacGyver flavor to a character.

I've altered master improviser a little to try to increase its utility. Now it also allows you to try to open a lock with a swift action by hitting it with the pommel of your weapon. Hopefully this gives it a little more power (letting you pop locks when under pressure).

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Also would the archetypes be able to substitute Charisma for Shrewd Tactics?

No they wouldn't, they only get to substitute Cha for casting purposes. Shrewd tactics represents careful study of the battlefield to gain advantage which falls under the auspices of Int (though an argument could also be made for Wis like the inquisitor's cunning initiative class feature).


ertw wrote:

I've updated the links above with the changes Penumbral Shadow suggested. I've also added two new metamagic feats (mass enchantment and multiplying illusion).

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
I'm with Penumbral Shadow on Master Improviser. I feel like as a feat it could be stronger. Maybe it could also apply to Artisan's Tools for Craft checks? I think that's the only other thing that requires tools to avoid a penalty. I still probably wouldn't take it, but it might give a little more MacGyver flavor to a character.

I've altered master improviser a little to try to increase its utility. Now it also allows you to try to open a lock with a swift action by hitting it with the pommel of your weapon. Hopefully this gives it a little more power (letting you pop locks when under pressure).

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Also would the archetypes be able to substitute Charisma for Shrewd Tactics?
No they wouldn't, they only get to substitute Cha for casting purposes. Shrewd tactics represents careful study of the battlefield to gain advantage which falls under the auspices of Int (though an argument could also be made for Wis like the inquisitor's cunning initiative class feature).

The masterwork wrist spring is great. I was originally thinking it would work better as a weapon like the knee blade, but I like what you've done with it since it means the beguiler could keep fighting with the sword after it gets triggered.

The edits to bottled invisibility also give it a quite a bit more utility but (since you added the bit about scent) you might want to add a bonus to the DC of tracking using scent too.

I like the new metamagic feats, I think they'll work well with the existing spells. The upgrade for master improviser does power it up, I probably still wouldn't take it, but it leaves a neat option for lockpicking specialists.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
The edits to bottled invisibility also give it a quite a bit more utility but (since you added the bit about scent) you might want to add a bonus to the DC of tracking using scent too.

Great idea. Added to the document.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd be weary of something like shatterglass not giving a save. Even if it were a fort save with a 20 or 25 DC, it should offer a chance to avoid the blinding effect. Otherwise it outshines a wide number of other items or spells with significantly greater cost.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! I have been looking off and on for years for a decent conversion for the beguiler and I just hit the mother load! It has been so frustrating to dig through uninspired conversion threads and find nothing but garbage. They're all full of people saying that beguilers can just be brought into pathfinder while wizards who can trounce a beguiler at pretty much everything in the game are getting bonuses from arcane schools and sorcerers who aren't far behind the wizards get awesome bloodline powers. FINALLY SOMEBODY WHO GETS IT! Somebody who is willing to give the beguiler some special sauce to make them as interesting as paizo's classes and to keep their power level up there.
I've been through so many other conversions and you are hitting all the marks they're missing. Thing's like Kirth's beguiler bloodline for sorcerers and the sandman bard completely miss the point of the beguiler being its own thing. Kirth's beguiler is too susceptible to just getting all the cool arcane toys that high level sorcerers and ignoring the beguiler's strong focus on illusion and charm and the skilled side of the beguiler. The sandman bard manages the skill monkey and lives as a spiritual successor to the beguiler, but doesn't carry the same magical power since it's only a half caster class. Other conversions the "beguiler to psychic warrior" attempt are just bland and uninspired, doing nothing but increasing the beguiler's save dc. This conversion finally gives me something I can sink my teeth into! New powers that both increase the abilities of the beguiler and give him entry into new realms of the game (alot of the beguiler's abilities try to lull you into close combat but it was almost always certain death for the old beguiler, this beguiler could definitely manage in close combat). This is what I've wanted for a long time. I'm so excited, I'll finally be able to play an asskicking beguiler again! Thank you, so much this is awesome work!


LT Silverstar wrote:
I'd be weary of something like shatterglass not giving a save. Even if it were a fort save with a 20 or 25 DC, it should offer a chance to avoid the blinding effect. Otherwise it outshines a wide number of other items or spells with significantly greater cost.

That's a fair point, I'll add a DC 25 Fort save for the blinding ability.

Happy Pappy wrote:
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! I have been looking off and on for years for a decent conversion for the beguiler and I just hit the mother load!

I'm glad I could make you happy, pappy :D When I started this conversion I went through a lot of the same frustrations you did. I'm glad it wasn't just me.


Any plans to convert the Warmage or Dread Necro? I really like your Beguiler and would love to see the other two converted.

Just a thought! lol. Either way I really like your work. Thank you. I will certainly be using this for my future games.


Dragonamedrake wrote:

Any plans to convert the Warmage or Dread Necro? I really like your Beguiler and would love to see the other two converted.

Just a thought! lol. Either way I really like your work. Thank you. I will certainly be using this for my future games.

I'm glad you're enjoying my work. I hadn't thought about converting the warmage and dread necromancer, but I may give it a shot when this conversion is put to bed.

151 to 200 of 833 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Conversions / Beguiler conversion for Pathfinder All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.