Beguiler conversion for Pathfinder


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ertw wrote:
LT Silverstar wrote:
BAB: This might just be because I've houseruled that rogues and monks get full BAB at my table, but I think this class might benefit from the medium BAB progression. The HD reflects the fact that this class is forced into closer combat and some orders have a strong melee/combat focus.
I'm not sure I'd want to increase the BAB. I want the beguiler to remain primarily a caster class. While some of the order powers are more martial than others, they still typically center around touch attacks or special attack actions which don't require an attack roll.

I can understand that but I really feel like the class needs something to make it a little more combat-oriented than a wizard or sorc.

Ertw wrote:
LT Silverstar wrote:
Silent foot: An interesting stealthy class. Lots of shadow utility from shadow's kin and night eye. Enveloping darkness is the real star of this show, I think. The capstone is decent, but not as nice as many of the other orders.
Do you think the capstone might be more attractive if I replaced the Augment Summoning feat with some aspects of the shadow creature template? I'm thinking maybe the defensive abilities and the shadow blending ability.

Shadow blend would definitely be a boost to the power, that and the DR 10 would probably make a capstone on par with the others.

Ertw wrote:
LT Silverstar wrote:
Unseen hand: This is a really interesting, but strongly situational order. I always saw assassin-types as more of an NPC class than a PC class. That said, you have a much more worthwhile assassin than the prestige class. Combining a paralysis attack with faster coup de graces is a powerful way to kill, but it's fairly limited by use-per-day restrictions. Quiet death is a really fun option with lots of flavor. I especially liked the penalty for the check if you're not using a dagger for the killing blow. Capstone again is kind of meh.
I did try to pull away from the more NPC favouring abilities of the assassin PrC like true death, but wasn't quite sure of how to best do the mastery ability. I'll try to think of something that might work better, but I'd be open to suggestions if you had one.
  • The dastardly finish feat from the advanced player's guide would be a great way to further power up the coup de grace
  • something akin to the assumption ability of the master spy prestige class (advanced player's guide again)
  • make it so they don't need to eat, breath or sleep

Another thought I had is that you might also want to make their paralyzing attack a supernatural ability rather than a spell-like ability, that way it cuts through SR.

Ertw wrote:
LT Silverstar wrote:
Wandering heart: Really cool thematically and everything here feels so incredibly unique. Enchanted casting jumps right off the page and makes so much sense to me. When you couple it with charmed casting, it basically gives you a free silent/still so you only need to focus on one perform skill. You could also use charmed casting to extend your charm spells to great effect. The power of these abilities is somewhat offset by the somewhat limited utility of charm spells. Beguiling aura is also really intriguing, the only change I might suggest is being a little more explicit in terms of what defines "looking upon her". Does it mean her face? Could it be any part of her body (I have this funny image of my mind where a wandering heart beguiler fascinates men by showing some ankle)? The capstone seems like it comes out of nowhere, but offers useful abilities and resistance. Maybe a little more could be included to explain why this seductress suddenly turns into a fey creature?
I'll try to add a little more text to the skill descriptions to add to these. I definitely need to be a little more specific with the beguiling aura ability, it will probably mean her face or possibly even just meeting her gaze. This ability was based on a power possessed by Nereids which is where the fey aspect of their master power comes from.

Hmm, hadn't thought of the aura attack as a pseudo-gaze attack. That's actually a really neat idea.

Ertw wrote:
LT Silverstar wrote:
Restless mind: At first I thought this order wouldn't interest me, but it caught my attention with dreaming puppet. What an option to have in your toolbox! It's powerful, but it's offset by risk (not just getting lost, but also to your character while they're in the trance). I might suggest making the "search" phase of the spell last longer if you don't know the target. In particular it feels like it should be a very real risk that the entire duration of the ability could get used up by the search to really drive home the need to name your target. The rest of the powers are alright, but don't jump out like dreaming puppet.
That's a really intriguing possibility you raise about making the search for the target potentially waste the use of the ability. How long do you think is appropriate (particularly since the ability can last for up to 10 hours)? Do you think that this duration might be too long?

The duration might be a bit long, most of the more practical uses of the power that I could think of would only require an hour or two. It'd also cut down on potential for bigger abuses. If you do keep the duration, I'd say 3d4 hours would be a good search time.

Ertw wrote:
LT Silverstar wrote:
Shambling bones: Feels like kind of a boilerplate necromancy option to me and almost seems out of place. Enervating touch is an interesting option that (when combined with the capstone morph into pseudo-undead) almost touches on the dread necromancer's transformation from D&D. This thing is still thematically a nightmare and the order as a whole just seems... not a beguiler.
I felt that the shambling bones creates some interesting options for beguilers; I was particularly interested in the potential to combine illusions with necromancy to disguise a group of raised minions. I did my best to keep the offensive necromancy spells off of their bonus list (with the exception of waves of fatigue), so it doesn't just turn into another offensive powerhouse.

It still feels thematically wrong to me. The new bonus spell system also makes it ripe for abuse since they now gain access to all necromancy spells. This includes those that can do significant damage, making for a less illusion/charm focused beguiler.

Ertw wrote:
LT Silverstar wrote:
Theurgic brigand: Stolen knowledge is an interesting take on the bonus spells. Otherwise it's a pretty simple reskin of rogue talents instead of order powers. If you made the change to hide in plain sight you discussed (replacing it with the ranger ability for urban terrain) would help to distinguish it too.

I've already made the hide in plain sight change on my main document for the conversion.

LT Silverstar wrote:
Elusive wildling: Already posted my comments on this. The more I read it, the more I fall in love with this weird beguiler option. I still think you should include the empathic link.
I've come around to agree with you WRT the empathic link. An elusive wildling will now get the improved empathic link at 9th level.

Good to hear.


LT Silverstar wrote:
I can understand that but I really feel like the class needs something to make it a little more combat-oriented than a wizard or sorc.

Again, I'm not that keen to give the beguiler significant combat advantages. Avoiding combat is a beguiler's specialty, in combat she should focus on battlefield control. I am, however, working on some beguiler equipment including a few weapons that might have some neat tricks to satisfy this combat itch.

LT Silverstar wrote:
Shadow blend would definitely be a boost to the power, that and the DR 10 would probably make a capstone on par with the others.

I decided to go with the energy resistances instead of DR since a number of other orders have similar DR.

LT Silverstar wrote:
  • The dastardly finish feat from the advanced player's guide would be a great way to further power up the coup de grace
  • something akin to the assumption ability of the master spy prestige class (advanced player's guide again)
  • make it so they don't need to eat, breath or sleep

Dastardly finish will probably be a popular feat with the unseen hand and it'd likely be a waste since they'd want to take before level 20. I really like the idea of the master spy power; I might even want to incorporate the master spy's hidden mind ability into this power to bring the power level up a bit more.

LT Silverstar wrote:
Another thought I had is that you might also want to make their paralyzing attack a supernatural ability rather than a spell-like ability, that way it cuts through SR.

That's a really good idea, it helps to make the ability more unique, too.

LT Silverstar wrote:
Hmm, hadn't thought of the aura attack as a pseudo-gaze attack. That's actually a really neat idea.

Since the range is right, I've turned it into an outright gaze attack.

LT Silverstar wrote:
The duration might be a bit long, most of the more practical uses of the power that I could think of would only require an hour or two. It'd also cut down on potential for bigger abuses. If you do keep the duration, I'd say 3d4 hours would be a good search time.

Good ideas. I've cut the duration to one hour for every four beguiler levels. The search for an unnamed enemy is down to 1d3+1 and I increased the time to escape from the dream world to 1d4.

LT Silverstar wrote:
It still feels thematically wrong to me. The new bonus spell system also makes it ripe for abuse since they now gain access to all necromancy spells. This includes those that can do significant damage, making for a less illusion/charm focused beguiler.

I suppose necromancy does have too broad a spell list for their bonus spells. Maybe the phantasm descriptor would be a better fit... perhaps also changing the tone of the forbidden magic from necromancy as a whole to specifically magic involving the undead.

I could potentially also switch fear from restless mind and move them to teleportation (to assist with planar travel if they do get lost in the dreamscape).

LT Silverstar wrote:
Good to hear.

Thank you again for your comments and suggestions, they've been incredibly helpful in developing this conversion. I'm sorry about the delays in my response as I was once again traveling, but I'm back at home again and should be able to respond more quickly.


I've been thinking about the issue with your necromancers for a while and I had an idea of how to handle the situation.

The first step is to get rid of apostasies altogether. While I liked the idea of orders and apostates at first, it seems a bit redundant now that you've got a few archetypes that offer beguiler options outside of the guild. The restless mind would fold back into the guild as an order.

The second step is to loosen the restrictions of the guild largely. This means that it's less of a "these are the disciplines of magic we don't practice because its against the rules" situation and more of a "these are the disciplines of magic we don't practice because they aren't our specialty." This may benefit from a relaxing of the guild structure as a whole. Make it less of a world-wide underground network of beguilers and more local: each major city has its own guild with its own particular rules, etc. Certain orders may not even be available in certain parts of the world.

The third step is merging the shambling bones and the unseen hand. I still don't think that raising armies of undead fits thematically into the beguiler type, but necromancy certainly fits with an assassin-beguiler. Give them some of the inflict spells on their bonus list, along with spectral hand and more harmful necromancy spells (providing a more offensively minded beguiler). On top of this you'd rework the order powers, here's my suggestion:

  • Paralyzing touch - Works as before, but instead of becoming a ranged touch at level 9 it can simply be delivered through spectral hand (if he has the spell). Also, with the quickened version I'd recommend it using 2 daily charges instead of just being limited to 3 times per day.
  • Death blow - Also works as before, but it includes the quiet death ability as an evolution at a later level.
  • Slaying spell - This is a new power to take the place of quiet death. Essentially it would allow the beguiler to coup de grace with a spell that has an attack roll (namely the inflict spells). This creates new opportunities for this new beguiler.
  • Master power - I'd say the shambling bones's master power is the more attractive of the two, but I do like your new ideas for the unseen hand. Maybe it'd be good to mix them up: immunities and DR from shambling bones and hidden mind from unseen hand.
  • Enervating touch - I still like this power and maybe it would fit in with paralyzing touch or slaying spell somehow.


That's an awesome suggestion. I'd originally put the apostasy concept in to give options for a beguiler that worked outside the guild; as you pointed out, that's a redundant option now. I'll try to put something together over the next few days. I had left the notions of the guild's specific regulations vague to leave more freedom to the player, but I think I might want to put in a brief note about the nature/make-up of the guild.


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Just finished the changes and compiled the new state of the conversion into a pdf:
Beguiler conversion - 3rd draft

Summary of major changes:


  • Description of guild added, apostasies removed. Tone of guild changed to a loose collection of local guilds rather than overarching worldwide hierarchy.
  • Bonus spells now start at 4th level instead of 3rd level. All bonus spell lists redone. Bonus spells no longer at one level below sorcerer/wizard spell list.
  • Replaced Order Mastery with Aspect of Mastery.
  • Unseen Hand and Shambling Bones merged into new Order of the Ghastly Claw.
  • Beguiler equipment added.


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Well I've taken a good read over the latest pdf and you've got some good stuff in there. I like the melding of the unseen hand and shambling bones, you've figured out a really neat blend between assassins and necromancers. The new sets of bonus spells are also really nicely crafted: there are much more cohesive themes across the orders (except the arcane hand, but that seems to be by design) and the addition of wider spell lists (I noticed a few the bard and witch lists).

The flavor changes with the guild are also quite good, though I do have a few issues here. There's a bit of an issue where in some places you give a very broad idea of the guild (ex. each guild has its own rules) and in other places you give very specific ideas (ex. things that happen in ALL guilds). I'd recommend removing all instances where you give unnecessary specifics about the guild. The biggest offender here is the hideaway and elysium: you've gone on about how every guild is different and then suddenly there's these two places that exist in every guild that are all the same. I love these two flavor-wise and I'd probably use them at my table, but to make them mandatory hurts the class on the whole. Some of your earlier criticisms boiled down to the fact that your idea of the guild didn't match the way they would play their beguilers. By opening up the guild structure as you have in some places you give the GM and player the option to make it their own. If you could work this openness across the entire document it would likely be more palatable to more people.


ertw wrote:

Just finished the changes and compiled the new state of the conversion into a pdf:

Beguiler conversion - 3rd draft

I created a paizo account just to respond to this thread. Thank you so much for this. Exactly what I needed for the campaign I'm entering. I was unable to get access to this latest pdf however :(


LT Silverstar wrote:
The flavor changes with the guild are also quite good, though I do have a few issues here. There's a bit of an issue where in some places you give a very broad idea of the guild (ex. each guild has its own rules) and in other places you give very specific ideas (ex. things that happen in ALL guilds). I'd recommend removing all instances where you give unnecessary specifics about the guild. The biggest offender here is the hideaway and elysium: you've gone on about how every guild is different and then suddenly there's these two places that exist in every guild that are all the same. I love these two flavor-wise and I'd probably use them at my table, but to make them mandatory hurts the class on the whole. Some of your earlier criticisms boiled down to the fact that your idea of the guild didn't match the way they would play their beguilers. By opening up the guild structure as you have in some places you give the GM and player the option to make it their own. If you could work this openness across the entire document it would likely be more palatable to more people.

I can see your point about the hooligan's hideaway and (I assume) dark lyceum. I had put those in to boost the flavour of the guild, but I can definitely see how that could cause problems for some. I can remove that section and I'll probably also try to make my claims about the guild more general. The other big point that jumps into my head right now is their relationships with natural beguilers, I'll try to simply give the two ends of the spectrum of attitudes and remove the bits about how large guilds usually treat them poorly.

Might I ask if you had any feelings about the equipment that I added to this document? I know you were interested in more martial options for the beguiler and I'm pretty proud of some of the stuff in there.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
I created a paizo account just to respond to this thread. Thank you so much for this. Exactly what I needed for the campaign I'm entering. I was unable to get access to this latest pdf however :(

Thanks for your interest! I took a look at the file permissions and it seems that when I uploaded a small revision (removing a repeated word) a few days ago the permissions switched over to only allowing me to view it. I've fixed the permissions so now the link above should work, let me know if you're having any more problems.


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ertw wrote:
LT Silverstar wrote:
The flavor changes with the guild are also quite good, though I do have a few issues here. There's a bit of an issue where in some places you give a very broad idea of the guild (ex. each guild has its own rules) and in other places you give very specific ideas (ex. things that happen in ALL guilds). I'd recommend removing all instances where you give unnecessary specifics about the guild. The biggest offender here is the hideaway and elysium: you've gone on about how every guild is different and then suddenly there's these two places that exist in every guild that are all the same. I love these two flavor-wise and I'd probably use them at my table, but to make them mandatory hurts the class on the whole. Some of your earlier criticisms boiled down to the fact that your idea of the guild didn't match the way they would play their beguilers. By opening up the guild structure as you have in some places you give the GM and player the option to make it their own. If you could work this openness across the entire document it would likely be more palatable to more people.
I can see your point about the hooligan's hideaway and (I assume) dark lyceum. I had put those in to boost the flavour of the guild, but I can definitely see how that could cause problems for some. I can remove that section and I'll probably also try to make my claims about the guild more general. The other big point that jumps into my head right now is their relationships with natural beguilers, I'll try to simply give the two ends of the spectrum of attitudes and remove the bits about how large guilds usually treat them poorly.

Yes, I meant lyceum. Not sure why elysium jumped into my head. I'm glad you're getting my point about keeping the fluff general. When I went back and looked over my D&D books, one of the things that jumped out at me where your beguiler differed from the original was the guild structure. The D&D books specifically mentioned that a beguiler fit easily into any game since it didn't come with the baggage of a new BIG GLOBE SPANNING group. Your new draft definitely falls more in line with this and will make it much easier to fit into an existing game.

If you make those changes, it'll make the class a lot easier to shoehorn into an existing campaign. The secretive nature of the guild explains why people haven't heard of it before and with your new, more adaptable guild structure, now these guilds will be easier to fit in. In fact, you might even have a beguiler guild that's just a part of the local thief's or assassin's guild. This isn't the Elder Scrolls, not everything needs to be neat and separate and compartmentalized. Hell, I could even imagine the beguiler's being an arm of a local wizard's guild in some of the more evil-themed areas of my world.

Ertw wrote:
Might I ask if you had any feelings about the equipment that I added to this document? I know you were interested in more martial options for the beguiler and I'm pretty proud of some of the stuff in there.

You've got a lot of really great stuff in there. I can tell you spent tons of time making sure that the fluff and crunch on each of these items made it unique and different. I loved that you brought back set bonuses from D&D, and the way you did it was really neat. It gives every group another unique power to play with (and the beguiler is all about deciding which of your fun toys to play with for me). Both weapons are great with really neat rogue-like applications (and repeating endless ammunition is a killer combo on the crossbow). You painted a really vivid picture with the hood of many faces and I've got this really cool image of how it works in my mind.

The night's watch (fantastic pun, btw) might be the star of the show for me. I'll want one for every character I play from now on. You took some simple, low level spells and turned them into a pretty beastly combination. Right now I'm thinking about the beguiler nobly volunteering to take guard duty all night and then, after the party falls asleep, he just opens up his watch and rolls into his sleeping bag.
One comment I'd make is that you might want to mention what kind of action is required to take something from the pockets of the breastplate. The description mentions a bag of holding so is it a move action? Does it work like the handy haversack where it doesn't invite an AoO? My gut instinct is, since each pocket is so small, it'd work as a free action without opportunity.
I guess it might also be interesting to have options for the butcher's crook to be done with different types of crossbows. Some players might prefer a light crossbow or even dual-wielding hand crossbows. I'm not sure what kind of mundane items they might look like... maybe the light crossbow could be an umbrella while the hand crossbow could be a canteen? I guess those could be done up and priced by GM fiat.

Ertw wrote:
Thanks for your interest! I took a look at the file permissions and it seems that when I uploaded a small revision (removing a repeated word) a few days ago the permissions switched over to only allowing me to view it. I've fixed the permissions so now the link above should work, let me know if you're having any more problems.

I guess I got lucky since I saved a version of the pdf saturday afternoon. I can confirm that the file is loading correctly again.


Am I missing something or does the Order of the Ghastly Claw allow a level 1 character to paralyze someone simply by a surprise touch?

The paralyzed opponent could then be killed with a coup de grace. Isn't that a little too powerful?


LT Silverstar wrote:
One comment I'd make is that you might want to mention what kind of action is required to take something from the pockets of the breastplate. The description mentions a bag of holding so is it a move action? Does it work like the handy haversack where it doesn't invite an AoO? My gut instinct is, since each pocket is so small, it'd work as a free action without opportunity.

I'd thought I mentioned it, but taking a look through the version I posted I guess it wasn't in there. Yes, free action without causing attacks of opportunity. I'll add it in.

LT Silverstar wrote:
I guess it might also be interesting to have options for the butcher's crook to be done with different types of crossbows. Some players might prefer a light crossbow or even dual-wielding hand crossbows. I'm not sure what kind of mundane items they might look like... maybe the light crossbow could be an umbrella while the hand crossbow could be a canteen? I guess those could be done up and priced by GM fiat.

I had actually come up with both of those, but left them out because it seemed needlessly bulky. As you said a GM or player could price those out since the only difference is the base weapon. The light version I came up with looked like a broken harp (called the Liar's Lyre) and the hand version looked like a rusted tinderbox (called the Snuff Box).

StealthDiabeetis wrote:

Am I missing something or does the Order of the Ghastly Claw allow a level 1 character to paralyze someone simply by a surprise touch?

The paralyzed opponent could then be killed with a coup de grace. Isn't that a little too powerful?

She still needs to succeed on a melee touch attack (with zero BAB and likely a low Str mod) and can only do it 3 + her Int mod times per day. It ends up being fairly comparable to a 1st level Witch using the slumber hex, except that the Witch can use her hex as many times per day she wants and the hex's save DC works off of her Int mod (the Witch's casting stat) instead of what is likely to be a dump stat.


ertw wrote:
LT Silverstar wrote:
One comment I'd make is that you might want to mention what kind of action is required to take something from the pockets of the breastplate. The description mentions a bag of holding so is it a move action? Does it work like the handy haversack where it doesn't invite an AoO? My gut instinct is, since each pocket is so small, it'd work as a free action without opportunity.
I'd thought I mentioned it, but taking a look through the version I posted I guess it wasn't in there. Yes, free action without causing attacks of opportunity. I'll add it in.

Come to think of it, it might actually be neat if the spell component pouch fabricated components below 1 gp on the spot. It wouldn't mechanically work any different from the mundane pouch, but would add some more neat fluff to the armor.

Ertw wrote:
LT Silverstar wrote:
I guess it might also be interesting to have options for the butcher's crook to be done with different types of crossbows. Some players might prefer a light crossbow or even dual-wielding hand crossbows. I'm not sure what kind of mundane items they might look like... maybe the light crossbow could be an umbrella while the hand crossbow could be a canteen? I guess those could be done up and priced by GM fiat.
I had actually come up with both of those, but left them out because it seemed needlessly bulky. As you said a GM or player could price those out since the only difference is the base weapon. The light version I came up with looked like a broken harp (called the Liar's Lyre) and the hand version looked like a rusted tinderbox (called the Snuff Box).

Those names are absolutely fantastic, but I can see your point about them being a bit cluttery.

Ertw wrote:
StealthDiabeetis wrote:

Am I missing something or does the Order of the Ghastly Claw allow a level 1 character to paralyze someone simply by a surprise touch?

The paralyzed opponent could then be killed with a coup de grace. Isn't that a little too powerful?

She still needs to succeed on a melee touch attack (with zero BAB and likely a low Str mod) and can only do it 3 + her Int mod times per day. It ends up being fairly comparable to a 1st level Witch using the slumber hex, except that the Witch can use her hex as many times per day she wants and the hex's save DC works off of her Int mod (the Witch's casting stat) instead of what is likely to be a dump stat.

I don't really think strength is a dump stat for an unseen hand beguiler. It'll definitely be lower than int or dex, but likely above any others. But in the end the slumber hex witch will be plenty more effective against martial type characters while this beguiler will have a bit of an edge against casters (because of good will saves) and it kind of washes out.


ertw wrote:
She still needs to succeed on a melee touch attack (with zero BAB and likely a low Str mod) and can only do it 3 + her Int mod times per day. It ends up being fairly comparable to a 1st level Witch using the slumber hex, except that the Witch can use her hex as many times per day she wants and the hex's save DC works off of her Int mod (the Witch's casting stat) instead of what is likely to be a dump stat.

But doesn't a touch attack disregard armor/shield bonuses? Without dexterity either, that's a pretty low AC.

The Shadow’s Kin ability also concerned me. At level 1 this would rival the Vanishing Trick of my level 5 ninja I've been playing (who already feels pleasantly overpowered at times).

Don't get me wrong, I love the build, just don't want to feel guilty being unbalanced with my party.


LT Silverstar wrote:
Come to think of it, it might actually be neat if the spell component pouch fabricated components below 1 gp on the spot. It wouldn't mechanically work any different from the mundane pouch, but would add some more neat fluff to the armor.

Hmm, that's actually a pretty good idea. One pocket does fabrication while the other is an extradimensional space. I'll add that in.

LT Silverstar wrote:
I don't really think strength is a dump stat for an unseen hand beguiler. It'll definitely be lower than int or dex, but likely above any others. But in the end the slumber hex witch will be plenty more effective against martial type characters while this beguiler will have a bit of an edge against casters (because of good will saves) and it kind of washes out.

Good point, but a Ghastly Claw Beguiler would still probably only have a Str bonus on the order of +1 or +2 while the witch should have an Int bonus around +4 or +5.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
But doesn't a touch attack disregard armor/shield bonuses? Without dexterity either, that's a pretty low AC.

For a medium sized creature without a deflection bonus the flat-footed AC for a melee touch would be a 10; matching that against the Beguiler's attack roll of 1d20+2 or so would still be about 60% successful. Compare this to the Witch who has a save DC of roughly 15 (10+Int) against a fighter with bad Will saves and probably a Wis modifier of 0 at most; that's a roll of 1d20 to save with a 75% chance that he's not going to make it. As LT Silverstar said above, this is not quite as good against a Cleric, for example, with good Will saves and a +5 Wis modifier making the save roll a 1d20+7 bringing the Witch's success chance down to 40%, but that's a game of know your enemies and play to their weaknesses. It's a powerful attack, definitely, but it's not really much more powerful than the slumber hex (depending on who you target) and as the player levels up its utility starts to get hamstrung by monsters that are immune to paralysis or sleep effects.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
The Shadow’s Kin ability also concerned me. At level 1 this would rival the Vanishing Trick of my level 5 ninja I've been playing (who already feels pleasantly overpowered at times).

While the abilities are similar, their use is quite different. A Ninja uses his vanishing trick to get sneak attack damage; with an average BAB this works well and he can deal significant damage from sneak attack dice. A Beguiler uses shadow's kin to move around the battlefield without being seen/attacked; her poor BAB makes attacks difficult (even against flat-footed enemies) and she doesn't have any source of major damage dice. The closest thing an Obscured Step Beguiler has to a damage spell is pain strike which is not available until she's a 6th level character and only deals non-lethal damage.

Another thing to remember is that Beguilers have access to the 1st level spell vanish (which equivalent to the vanishing trick and shadow's kin) from the beginning and quickly gain the 2nd level spell invisibility, so magical disappearing acts are readily available to them from other sources fairly early on.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I love the build, just don't want to feel guilty being unbalanced with my party.

It's not a problem, your feedback is helpful in getting me to check myself since I don't want this conversion to end up unbalanced and overpowered either. This Beguiler, just as it was in 3.5, is a fairly powerful class (most full casters are), but it's still probably not on the same tier as a Sorcerer or Wizard as Penumbral Shadow and I discussed on the first page of this thread.


I'm looking at the equipment right now and it's all pretty neat. Do you think it would be possible to cover the entire aura of the breastplate like you do for the butcher's crook? I'm thinking those pockets are really really useful if you get taken prisoner, but not if the enemy has a level 1 caster who can figure out it's magic with a cantrip. In that case they'd likely remove the armor just in case and you're not left with your neat little bags of tricks. It seems like you've already got magic aura on it to hide the pockets from detect magic, why not extend it to the whole breastplate?


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I'm looking at the equipment right now and it's all pretty neat. Do you think it would be possible to cover the entire aura of the breastplate like you do for the butcher's crook? I'm thinking those pockets are really really useful if you get taken prisoner, but not if the enemy has a level 1 caster who can figure out it's magic with a cantrip. In that case they'd likely remove the armor just in case and you're not left with your neat little bags of tricks. It seems like you've already got magic aura on it to hide the pockets from detect magic, why not extend it to the whole breastplate?

My original design of all three parts of the beguiler's raiment was that they'd be covered by magic aura, but for some reason I changed my mind about the breastplate and hood of many faces. Looking back at my document, I need to take magic aura off of the hood's requirements. Since the breastplate already has the magic aura effect on it, it would make sense to disguise the entire aura. I'll make that change to the deceiver's breastplate.


I think this is definitely good enough to bring to the table now for some play testing. If you could post or PM me a link to your final version of the conversion, I'd like to pass it along to Penumbral Shadow and another one of my players after our game this Thursday. When we've all gone over it we'll try to schedule some time to run some scenarios next week.


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LT Silverstar wrote:
I think this is definitely good enough to bring to the table now for some play testing. If you could post or PM me a link to your final version of the conversion, I'd like to pass it along to Penumbral Shadow and another one of my players after our game this Thursday. When we've all gone over it we'll try to schedule some time to run some scenarios next week.

That sounds great, here's the finalized version:

Beguiler conversion for Pathfinder.


ertw wrote:
LT Silverstar wrote:
I think this is definitely good enough to bring to the table now for some play testing. If you could post or PM me a link to your final version of the conversion, I'd like to pass it along to Penumbral Shadow and another one of my players after our game this Thursday. When we've all gone over it we'll try to schedule some time to run some scenarios next week.

That sounds great, here's the finalized version:

Beguiler conversion for Pathfinder.

WOW! That layout is absolutely incredible, it must have taken you forever! Loading it through google drive doesn't do it justice, when I saved it to my computer and opened the file it's just spectacular! I'll definitely get this out to my players ASAP and get back to you about our misadventures.


ertw, can I hug you?

Amazing layout. I'll be playing a beguiler on a 3.5 converted changeling (Races of Eberron) in an evil campaign. I'll let you know if I have any more thoughts. Still trying to decide which order/archetype to take.

Just to check, though... The Theurgic Brigand cannot do independent research in enchantment/illusion, correct? At 4th level they only have access to Bard spells via Stolen Knowledge?


LT Silverstar wrote:
WOW! That layout is absolutely incredible, it must have taken you forever! Loading it through google drive doesn't do it justice, when I saved it to my computer and opened the file it's just spectacular! I'll definitely get this out to my players ASAP and get back to you about our misadventures.
StealthDiabeetis wrote:

ertw, can I hug you?

Amazing layout. I'll be playing a beguiler on a 3.5 converted changeling (Races of Eberron) in an evil campaign. I'll let you know if I have any more thoughts. Still trying to decide which order/archetype to take.

Thank you both for your wonderful comments :D I was really pleased with the way my work paid off, too.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Just to check, though... The Theurgic Brigand cannot do independent research in enchantment/illusion, correct? At 4th level they only have access to Bard spells via Stolen Knowledge?

You are correct, the Theurgic Brigand can take any Bard spells, but no enchantment/illusion from the Sorcerer/Wizard list.


Is there any way you could make the pdf with selectable text?


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Also it's a shame you couldn't squeeze "Beguiling Touch" in there somewhere :P


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StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Is there any way you could make the pdf with selectable text?

It seems the fonts I used don't embed properly, so I've put together this version using arial. It's not as pretty, but the whole text should be selectable.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Also it's a shame you couldn't squeeze "Beguiling Touch" in there somewhere :P

I had looked at that ability for the Order of the Wandering Heart, but decided to go with the beguiling aura power instead.


This really looks amazing. It makes me want to try out a custom campaign with no prepared casters. It would cut down on arcane power by making casters more specialized. Something like...
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Beguiler - Enchantment and Illusion Specialist - (Your Version)
WarMage - Evocation and Transmutation Specialist - Updated like your beguiler... possibly tie them to a War Academy to give them a choice like your guilds.
Dread Necro - Necromancy (and Divination???)- updated and tied to secret cults or sects.
Summoner - Conjuration and Abjuration - Rework the Summoner into a spontaneous 9th level caster. Tied to Mage Guilds. Some of the Summoner abilities would have to be toned down.
Witch - Universal (Non specialist) - Reworked to be spontaneous caster like the rest with a limited list, but unlike the rest have them be more of an outcast caster.

No Wizard or Sorcerer. Possibly even change the Druid/Cleric/Oracle to be more specialized spontaneous casters as well. It would limit the power of the classes some. They would at the very least drop to low Tier 2 classes if not Tier 3. And it would add a ton of depth if given as much love as your beguiler has gotten. Each could be rivals of different "Schools" of magic.

Anyone else think this would be a cool campaign world?


It would definitely help to depower mages. Earlier in the thread there was a discussion about how, even though the beguiler has several advantages over the sorcerer (bigger HD, additional powers, cloaked casting to increase the DC of their spells), they still don't measure up because of the limited spell selection.

The interesting question is how to split up the divine spells, since they aren't divided into schools per se. Maybe you could treat divine magic as yet another branch of arcana, so your spontaneous divine casters wouldn't have access to a lot of the spells that overlap between arcane and divine magic. You could develop a class that is an energy channeler (cure and inflict spells), one who is a blesser (many of the divine buffs), and a natural caster (druid).


ertw wrote:
. . . The interesting question is how to split up the divine spells, since they aren't divided into schools per se. Maybe you could treat divine magic as yet another branch of arcana, so your spontaneous divine casters wouldn't have access to a lot of the spells that overlap between arcane and divine magic. You could develop a class that is an energy channeler (cure and inflict spells), one who is a blesser (many of the divine buffs), and a natural caster (druid).

This reminds me of a discussion I saw about making clerics of different gods unique. If I remember one of the variants correctly, it lost medium and heavy armor proficiency. You were a spontaneous caster with a spell list composed of the spells on you god's domains + 2 spells chosen from the cleric list. And you picked up an alternate channeling based on your god, like granting resist energy (fire) to allies in a 30' radius.


Thanks for the text version. Decided to go with Theurgic Brigand since the idea for my character is more charisma based. Seems like there aren't a lot of talents, though. Thoughts?


StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Thanks for the text version. Decided to go with Theurgic Brigand since the idea for my character is more charisma based. Seems like there aren't a lot of talents, though. Thoughts?

From your wording I'm not sure about the issue you're finding. Is it that there aren't enough to choose from, that you aren't finding ones that are to your liking or that the brigand doesn't get to select enough of them?


ertw wrote:
From your wording I'm not sure about the issue you're finding. Is it that there aren't enough to choose from, that you aren't finding ones that are to your liking or that the brigand doesn't get to select enough of them?

Sorry. Just doesn't seem like there are many choices. Would be nice to see some that aren't rogue talents, too. I think they get to choose enough and I do like some of them. Maybe some more that could play off the high charisma? Up to you, just a thought.

Edit: Or maybe something with Detect Law/Dispel Law or Urban Grace to play to the theme?


StealthDiabeetis wrote:

Sorry. Just doesn't seem like there are many choices. Would be nice to see some that aren't rogue talents, too. I think they get to choose enough and I do like some of them. Maybe some more that could play off the high charisma? Up to you, just a thought.

Edit: Or maybe something with Detect Law/Dispel Law or Urban Grace to play to the theme?

I'd picked out the number of talents and advanced talents to match the original list for the rogue in the core rulebook, but I don't suppose a few more options would hurt. I'd have figured that Charmer, Coax Information, and Honeyed Words would appeal to the high Charisma set.

That said, your edit has given me a bit of inspiration. Your suggestion of Urban Grace made me take a second look at the spells of the advanced race guide and I've decided to add a few of them to the beguiler spell list; naturally those spells would only be available to beguilers of those races. One new talent I have in mind would permit a theurgic brigand to add the spells of another race to her own spell list.

Another talent I was thinking of would permit a theurgic brigand to gain the bloodline arcana of one of the sorcerer bloodlines. Finally, as an advanced talent (building on your suggestion of dispel law), I was thinking about a constant protection from law effect. This effect could be dismissed in a burst which casts dispel law and wouldn't be usable again until the next day (like the Sylph's breeze-kissed ability).

I'll try to get these down properly and update the pdfs.


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Here are the updated files:
Formatted PDF
Selectable PDF


ertw wrote:

Here are the updated files:

Formatted PDF
Selectable PDF

Awesome, thanks! I thought about suggesting the Eldritch Heritage feat for inspiration. Sorcerer bloodlines definitely play into the natural inborn talent and "could have made her way in the world as a sorcerer" parts. Very cool.

I like Gutterblood Magic, too (Harry Potter reference?). I'll probably take Undine to get Nereid's Grace and Nixie's Lure.

Fugitive’s Foresight will be invaluable for my character. Perfect!

Looks like you added Knowledge (Engineering) too. Interesting.

ertw wrote:
I'd have figured that Charmer, Coax Information, and Honeyed Words would appeal to the high Charisma set.

They totally did at first, but since they're only once daily's and you must select them before a check I decided I would more likely just take Memory Lapse with Stolen Knowledge and use that to assist my manipulation and take other talents.


Oh man.... I'm so excited. Just found this converted Eberron Changeling racial feat that will play in perfect with the racial spells.

Racial Emulation [Changeling]

  • Benefit: When using your shapechange ability, you take on the subtype of the humanoid you are disguised as. You still retain your shapechanger subtype, but you now also qualify as the mimicked humanoid subtype for the purposes of magical items, spells or other effects. If the subtype you are disguised as low-light vision, darkvision (up to 60') or the scent ability, you do as well so long as you are disguised like that subtype.


StealthDiabeetis wrote:
I like Gutterblood Magic, too (Harry Potter reference?).

I won't deny that the first name that popped into my head was Mudblood Magic :P Gutterblood just seemed such a fitting for a mongrel street-rat type character.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Looks like you added Knowledge (Engineering) too. Interesting.

Yeah, somebody pointed out that Craft is a class skill for every base class in pathfinder so I added it to the base beguiler too. I figured that Knowledge (Engineering) could be helpful in an urban setting.


StealthDiabeetis wrote:

Oh man.... I'm so excited. Just found this converted Eberron Changeling racial feat that will play in perfect with the racial spells.

Racial Emulation [Changeling]

  • Benefit: When using your shapechange ability, you take on the subtype of the humanoid you are disguised as. You still retain your shapechanger subtype, but you now also qualify as the mimicked humanoid subtype for the purposes of magical items, spells or other effects. If the subtype you are disguised as low-light vision, darkvision (up to 60') or the scent ability, you do as well so long as you are disguised like that subtype.

I think you may be misinterpreting that bit about spells. As I read it, this feat seems to be something more along the lines of the elf-blood effect that half-elves get. My interpretation is that, if your changeling shapechanged into an elf, he would be treated as an elf for spells that specifically effect (or don't effect) elves. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that by changing shape your character would suddenly know how to cast a new spell (or that he'd suddenly forget it when he shapechanged into something else). This is just my interpretation and you're free to disagree, but if I were you I'd check that with your DM because his interpretation is the final word at his table.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I think you may be misinterpreting that bit about spells. As I read it, this feat seems to be something more along the lines of the elf-blood effect that half-elves get. My interpretation is that, if your changeling shapechanged into an elf, he would be treated as an elf for spells that specifically effect (or don't effect) elves. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that by changing shape your character would suddenly know how to cast a new spell (or that he'd suddenly forget it when he shapechanged into something else). This is just my interpretation and you're free to disagree, but if I were you I'd check that with your DM because his interpretation is the final word at his table.

Yeah I'm definitely going to check with him, but I don't think of it so much as knowing/forgetting a spell as having the genetic ability to cast it, if that makes sense.


ertw wrote:
Another talent I was thinking of would permit a theurgic brigand to gain the bloodline arcana of one of the sorcerer bloodlines.

Guessing the Kobold Bloodline is off-limits unless you're actually a Kobold? Wasn't 100% sure how to interpret "deeply rooted arcane heritage".


StealthDiabeetis wrote:
ertw wrote:
Another talent I was thinking of would permit a theurgic brigand to gain the bloodline arcana of one of the sorcerer bloodlines.
Guessing the Kobold Bloodline is off-limits unless you're actually a Kobold? Wasn't 100% sure how to interpret "deeply rooted arcane heritage".

Yeah, its meant to be a sorcerer bloodline that your character qualifies for, so Kobold and Imperious bloodlines are off the table unless you're a kobold or human respectively. I've updated the text of the talent to clarify that fact:

Arcane Blood: A beguiler who selects this talent selects a sorcerer bloodline representing her deeply rooted arcane heritage. So long as she meets all of the prerequisites of the bloodline she gains the bloodline arcana associated with it.


ertw wrote:
Yeah, its meant to be a sorcerer bloodline that your character qualifies for, so Kobold and Imperious bloodlines are off the table unless you're a kobold or human respectively.

That's too bad. Almost worth being a Kobold just to get that bloodline. Almost... :)

Think I'll be going with Serpentine then.


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Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I think you may be misinterpreting that bit about spells. As I read it, this feat seems to be something more along the lines of the elf-blood effect that half-elves get. My interpretation is that, if your changeling shapechanged into an elf, he would be treated as an elf for spells that specifically effect (or don't effect) elves. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that by changing shape your character would suddenly know how to cast a new spell (or that he'd suddenly forget it when he shapechanged into something else). This is just my interpretation and you're free to disagree, but if I were you I'd check that with your DM because his interpretation is the final word at his table.

I emailed the guy who put together that conversion and and asked "With this feat would changing to a certain race qualify me to use their racial spells? For example while in the form of a Tengu could I cast Theft Ward if it's available to my class?"

His response: "I would say yes, but then there is the question of getting the spell in the first place. If I was the GM, that would be a undercover operation to infiltrate a tengu community to get it. If it was found in random treasure, that would be a little careless in my opinion."

It still only grants me access to about half of the racial spells, though, since I can't change to a small size or outsider. I'm actually glad you said something, too, because before I didn't realize I couldn't change to Undines, Aasimars, etc.


StealthDiabeetis wrote:
His response: "I would say yes, but then there is the question of getting the spell in the first place. If I was the GM, that would be a undercover operation to infiltrate a tengu community to get it. If it was found in random treasure, that would be a little careless in my opinion."

I can get on board with that interpretation. To me, racial spells don't have any fundamental aspect that prevents other races from learning them, it's just that they're selfishly guarded secrets of these races. In that frame, shapeshifting into a tengu and convincing an unfamiliar tengu beguiler to teach you theft ward makes sense. The end result is that you would be able to cast that spell regardless of your form because you knew it.


Are there any caster classes with even close to this many spells known?


StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Are there any caster classes with even close to this many spells known?

Not any spontaneous casters, though prepared casters can easily get stables of spells many times larger than this one. In 3.5 the beguiler was one of three caster classes (the others being warmage and dread necromancer) who knew their entire spell list and cast spontaneously. In these cases the advantage of the large list of spells known was heavily offset by the extremely narrow focus of these spell lists.


Since we're mentioning the ARG, is there any chance you'd put together favored class options for the beguiler? You'd probably have a decent group of them already made for you by looking at the bard/rogue/sorcerer/wizard options.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Since we're mentioning the ARG, is there any chance you'd put together favored class options for the beguiler? You'd probably have a decent group of them already made for you by looking at the bard/rogue/sorcerer/wizard options.

I've got a handful of ideas kicking around on a notepad file right now, hopefully I'll be able to get them into a finished format sometime tomorrow night.


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So I had a chance to go over the whole conversion document with the players I'll be play testing with last night (though it seems there have been updates to it since I printed it out Thursday morning). Let me just lay out a few of our comments:

  • As expected, the flavor of the class as a whole went over incredibly well. Mark (Penumbral Shadow) had already seen it, but Gina (my pack lord druid player) was really entertained by it. We couldn't help but kick around a few ideas about what the beguiler guild would look like in the various cities of our world. Each of us had a slightly different picture of the guild, but the world is so varied that each interpretation could fit in somewhere. I really think the beautiful job you did formatting these pages helped to make it more immersive since it looked like we were reading off of pages from an actual Paizo splatbook.
  • The general mechanics of the class seem to be really well worked out. The consensus around the table was still that we'd like to see the BAB bumped up to a three-quarters progression. They've got armor training and expansive weapon proficiencies to indicate some level of martial training and the poor attack progression the beguiler currently has doesn't mesh with that.
  • We all really enjoyed the equipment you've included for beguilers, you've come up with some really creative stuff here and neat ways to subvert simple powers in exciting ways. While we love the butcher's crook and the hornet's sting, they're both exclusively ranged weapons and we did wonder if you might have something in store for a melee weapon?

Here's what we ended up saying about the various orders and archetypes:

  • The arcane hand is very interesting, though the bonus spell list is kind of all over the place. I guess that might make sense thematically since they're assembling a little bit of magical powers from all the schools. We felt that nondetection was a bit of a weak choice for the level 13 power, you might want to up its power to mind blank.
  • The ghastly claw is an interesting martial class, but the core power is still limited to a toss up in the early game because of the poor BAB. Having said that, it may pose a bit of a problem when used on significantly larger enemies (the kind that typically make up mini-boss or boss encounters) since their touch AC is lowered by size penalties. Maybe you could include a fort save in the attack to help depower it against big foes a little.
    Another point Gina made that we hadn't foreseen is that it is a super tempting order to multiclass into for martial players. A ninja, for example, could take a single level of beguiler and pick up an incredibly powerful touch attack to paralyze an enemy with literally no downside. If you were to include the save we mentioned above and have it scale with beguiler level it would help to limit the effectiveness of a beguiler dip. Also, the spell kill ability could be abused by multiclass casters who have a wide range of spells (instead of just their bonus necromancy spells) to use with it. There's even a trait called two-world magic which explicitly lets you grab a cantrip from another list (like ray of frost) so you could make ranged coup de grace attacks all day long. You'll have to think about things you can do to prevent open loopholes like that.
    The capstone power for the ghastly claw seems a little overpowered compared to the other orders, too. You might want to cut down on the number of immunities granted or remove the DR.
  • The obscured step feels underpowered. You added vanish to the beguiler spell list and that makes their level 1 power completely obsolete. The rest of their powers seem to lack a lot of the flavor contained in the other orders. I understand the need for a kind of stealth-utility class, but it just seems boring on paper. Maybe it'll get better when we actually play with it.
    With the shadow evocation powers on their bonus spell list, this class is going to have some combat potential so you might think about reskinning it along those lines. Give it something like the rogue's sneak attack with a slower progression (maybe a new die every three or four levels). Combine this with a better BAB and you've got something interesting IMHO.
  • The restless mind seems very niche-oriented. It has incredible flavor, but its utility is pretty limited in combat. We're not sure we'd change it, since pathfinder isn't all about combat, but we'd probably pass it over for a PC. It's a pretty good NPC tool for GMs, especially for the big bads: make your players go for a little sleep walk during the night and leave them to figure their way back to the group.
  • The wandering heart is likewise a primarily non-combat order, but it has legs to stand on. The tools given to this beguiler makes it quite a powerful party face and I could easily imagine having one of these characters leading a whole attachment of town guards around to do her bidding. One particular concern we had was the capstone: at level 20 most enemies you face (even ones with natural attacks) have the +3 enhancement bonus required to overcome that cold-iron DR, so it essentially becomes a nonfactor. The end result seems a little underpowered. Maybe replace the DR with a DR 5/- like the ghastly claw or some kind of energy resistance.
  • The theurgic brigand is interesting, but the talents seem a little underwhelming. Mark informs me that you've added a few unique talents for the beguiler that might help that, but I haven't had a chance to look it over. The capstone here seems a little overpowered, too: sneak/crit immunity, PLUS DR 10/adamantium (while this faces a similar problem to the DR of the wandering heart, it needs a higher tier enhancement to overcome it that won't be quite as ubiquitous), PLUS SR 30, PLUS blindsight? I'd cut out the blindsight and one of the DR or SR.
  • The elusive wildling was a bit of a favorite at the table with Gina considering moving over to this if we give the conversion to OK for table play (her pack lord is currently in a pretty precarious position). A lot of the powers synergize really well and make it really powerful out in the wilds. In an urban environment it still has enough tools to get by on its charisma. The capstone seems powerful, but not overly so: our only concern is that a move action for rooting might be a bit too little too quick for the advantages it has and there's no mention of how to unroot. Gina suggested that maybe it could take a full round action to unroot, this would prevent situations where a beguiler would root once she's taken combat position to prevent trips/bullrushes and then unroot to move on.

I hope these comments help, as Gina showed us yesterday, it can be useful to see these things through new eyes.


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Thanks so much for all the comments, I'll go through them and respond in a little bit. First the favoured class options for Penumbral Shadow.

Favoured Class Options:

Favoured Class Options
The following options are available to members of the listed races who have selected beguiler as their favoured class, and unless otherwise stated, the bonus applies each time you select the class reward.

Catfolk: Add a +1/2 bonus on Bluff checks to feint and Sleight of Hands checks to pickpocket.
Drow: Add 5 minutes to the duration of the enveloping darkness ability.
Dwarf: Reduce arcane spell failure chance for casting beguiler spells when wearing medium armor by +1%. Once the total reaches 10%, the beguiler also receives Medium Armor Proficiency, if she does not already possess it.
Elf: The beguiler gains 1/6 of a bonus feat from the following list, so long as she meets the requirements: combat casting, eschew materials, improved familiar, magical aptitude, or spell penetration.
Fetchling: Add a +1/2 bonus on Stealth and Sleight of Hand checks made while in dim light or darkness.
Gnome: The beguiler gains a +1/2 bonus on Disable Device and Use Magic Device checks related to glyphs, symbols, scrolls, and other magical writings.
Grippli: Add a +1/2 bonus on Perception checks while in a forest or swamp.
Half-Elf: When casting beguiler enchantment spells, add +1/3 to the effective caster level of the spell, but only to determine the spell's duration.
Half-Orc: Add a +1 bonus on concentration checks made due to taking damage while casting beguiler spells.
Halfling: Add +1/2 on Bluff checks to pass secret messages, +1/2 on Diplomacy checks to gather information, and +1/2 on Disguise checks to appear as an elven, half-elven, or human child.
Hobgoblin: Reduce the penalty for not being proficient with one weapon by 1. When the nonproficiency penalty for a weapon becomes 0 because of this ability, the beguiler is treated as having the appropriate Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for that weapon.
Human: Add +1/3 on critical hit confirmation rolls made against flat-footed enemies (maximum bonus of +5). This bonus does not stack with Critical Focus.
Ifrit: Add +1/3 to the DC of the beguiling aura’s fascination effect (maximum bonus +4), or +1/4 to the DC of the beguiling aura’s spell-like ability (maximum bonus +3).
Kitsune: Add +1/4 to the DC of enchantment spells.
Ratfolk: Add a +1/2 bonus on Escape Artist checks.
Samsaran: Add +1/3 to the DC of the dreaming puppet ability (maximum bonus +5).
Sylph: Add a +1/2 bonus on Stealth checks while motionless and on opposed Perception checks.
Tengu: Choose a weapon from those listed under the tengu's swordtrained ability. Add a +1/2 bonus on critical hit confirmation rolls with that weapon (maximum bonus +4). This bonus does not stack with Critical Focus.
Tiefling: Add a +1/2 bonus on Bluff checks and Knowledge checks to identify creatures.
Undine: Add one spell from the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list with the water descriptor to the beguiler's spell list with its spell level increased by one. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level she can cast.
Vishkanya: Select one order power at 1st level that is normally usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the beguiler's Intelligence modifier. The beguiler adds +1/2 to the number of uses per day of that order power.
Wayang: Add +1/3 to the DC of spells of the shadow subschool (maximum bonus +5).


Great contributions, LT Silverstar. I agree with most of those comments.

ertw, have you considered adjusting the Cloaked Casting stats to that of Sneakspell? Also, I thought the Master of Deception ability from that archetype was pretty cool.

I noticed Theurgic Brigands gain weapon proficiency with the sap. Maybe you could add a sap talent to knock targets unconscious or something? And/or maybe a magic sap item since the archetypes don't get the raiment bonuses?

Edit: Streetwise might be another good advanced talent. Sorry... I've just been browsing Bard archetypes for a friend and keep seeing Beguiler potential haha.


A lot of your comments are echoing things I've been hearing from another place I posted it recently.

LT Silverstar wrote:
The general mechanics of the class seem to be really well worked out. The consensus around the table was still that we'd like to see the BAB bumped up to a three-quarters progression. They've got armor training and expansive weapon proficiencies to indicate some level of martial training and the poor attack progression the beguiler currently has doesn't mesh with that.

I've heard a similar argument, but I'm still not sure about it. I wanted to keep close to some of the aspects of the original class (which included the poor BAB). I can see what you're saying about the more martial tendencies of their proficiencies, but I still worry that bumping the beguiler BAB up to average might be yet another step on the last of the bard's toes. The beguiler already acts as a better skill monkey (same skills per level, but Int is much more important for the beguiler), it has more powerful spellcasting and if we upgrade the BAB it would then be just as competent in combat. The only thing the bard has left is the ability to buff the party (and the theurgic brigand encroaches on that territory further). I'm definitely not quite as opposed to improving the BAB as I was at first, but I'm still hesitant.

LT Silverstar wrote:
We all really enjoyed the equipment you've included for beguilers, you've come up with some really creative stuff here and neat ways to subvert simple powers in exciting ways. While we love the butcher's crook and the hornet's sting, they're both exclusively ranged weapons and we did wonder if you might have something in store for a melee weapon?

I'm not sure I want to add more equipment to make the document longer, but you can definitely put one together using the magic item price guide.

LT Silverstar wrote:
The arcane hand is very interesting, though the bonus spell list is kind of all over the place. I guess that might make sense thematically since they're assembling a little bit of magical powers from all the schools. We felt that nondetection was a bit of a weak choice for the level 13 power, you might want to up its power to mind blank.

I actually already switched the mind blank and nondetection between the arcane hand and ghastly claw orders due to complaints about the ghastly claw aspect of mastery being too powerful. That change is already on the updated document.

Looking over the sandman bard StealthDiabeetis posted, though, I'm considering replacing that with something along the lines of their stealspell ability. I was thinking about a spellthief-type option to build up the obscured step, but your sneak attack suggestion has given me a new idea; the ability might still fit thematically with the arcane hand.

LT Silverstar wrote:
The ghastly claw is an interesting martial class, but the core power is still limited to a toss up in the early game because of the poor BAB. Having said that, it may pose a bit of a problem when used on significantly larger enemies (the kind that typically make up mini-boss or boss encounters) since their touch AC is lowered by size penalties. Maybe you could include a fort save in the attack to help depower it against big foes a little.

Fortitude save already added in the document (DC 10 + 1/2 beguiler level + Int) to prevent just that situation.

LT Silverstar wrote:
Another point Gina made that we hadn't foreseen is that it is a super tempting order to multiclass into for martial players. A ninja, for example, could take a single level of beguiler and pick up an incredibly powerful touch attack to paralyze an enemy with literally no downside. If you were to include the save we mentioned above and have it scale with beguiler level it would help to limit the effectiveness of a beguiler dip. Also, the spell kill ability could be abused by multiclass casters who have a wide range of spells (instead of just their bonus necromancy spells) to use with it. There's even a trait called two-world magic which explicitly lets you grab a cantrip from another list (like ray of frost) so you could make ranged coup de grace attacks all day long. You'll have to think about things you can do to prevent open loopholes like that.

LOL I think Gina may have seen the thread I posted on Reddit because that was another comment made there. I've already included the stipulation that the spell must be on her beguiler spell list and that it must be delivered through a melee touch attack.

LT Silverstar wrote:
The capstone power for the ghastly claw seems a little overpowered compared to the other orders, too. You might want to cut down on the number of immunities granted or remove the DR.

I switched out mind blank for nondetection and cut the immunities back to paralysis and nonlethal damage; those changes are already on my updated document. I might change the type of DR to 5/bludgeoning to further weaken it.

LT Silverstar wrote:

The obscured step feels underpowered. You added vanish to the beguiler spell list and that makes their level 1 power completely obsolete. The rest of their powers seem to lack a lot of the flavor contained in the other orders. I understand the need for a kind of stealth-utility class, but it just seems boring on paper. Maybe it'll get better when we actually play with it.

With the shadow evocation powers on their bonus spell list, this class is going to have some combat potential so you might think about reskinning it along those lines. Give it something like the rogue's sneak attack with a slower progression (maybe a new die every three or four levels). Combine this with a better BAB and you've got something interesting IMHO.

I can see how a stealth specialist in a class that's already pretty great at stealth might be a little underwhelming. Your suggestion gave me an idea to work with, I'll let you know when I hammer out the details.

LT Silverstar wrote:
The restless mind seems very niche-oriented. It has incredible flavor, but its utility is pretty limited in combat. We're not sure we'd change it, since pathfinder isn't all about combat, but we'd probably pass it over for a PC. It's a pretty good NPC tool for GMs, especially for the big bads: make your players go for a little sleep walk during the night and leave them to figure their way back to the group.

I can't disagree with that; the order was originally written to provide an alternate apostasy besides the shambling bones, but I really liked some of the unique things it had to offer. I still think I'll leave it in, even if it's just to give the bad guy's some neat tools to cause trouble.

LT Silverstar wrote:
The wandering heart is likewise a primarily non-combat order, but it has legs to stand on. The tools given to this beguiler makes it quite a powerful party face and I could easily imagine having one of these characters leading a whole attachment of town guards around to do her bidding. One particular concern we had was the capstone: at level 20 most enemies you face (even ones with natural attacks) have the +3 enhancement bonus required to overcome that cold-iron DR, so it essentially becomes a nonfactor. The end result seems a little underpowered. Maybe replace the DR with a DR 5/- like the ghastly claw or some kind of energy resistance.

That's a good point about the cold iron. I'll put some thought into something more worthwhile for them.

LT Silverstar wrote:
The theurgic brigand is interesting, but the talents seem a little underwhelming. Mark informs me that you've added a few unique talents for the beguiler that might help that, but I haven't had a chance to look it over. The capstone here seems a little overpowered, too: sneak/crit immunity, PLUS DR 10/adamantium (while this faces a similar problem to the DR of the wandering heart, it needs a higher tier enhancement to overcome it that won't be quite as ubiquitous), PLUS SR 30, PLUS blindsight? I'd cut out the blindsight and one of the DR or SR.

Fair enough. I'll remove the blindsight and the SR, as well as bumping the DR up to 10/lawful.

LT Silverstar wrote:
The elusive wildling was a bit of a favorite at the table with Gina considering moving over to this if we give the conversion to OK for table play (her pack lord is currently in a pretty precarious position). A lot of the powers synergize really well and make it really powerful out in the wilds. In an urban environment it still has enough tools to get by on its charisma. The capstone seems powerful, but not overly so: our only concern is that a move action for rooting might be a bit too little too quick for the advantages it has and there's no mention of how to unroot. Gina suggested that maybe it could take a full round action to unroot, this would prevent situations where a beguiler would root once she's taken combat position to prevent trips/bullrushes and then unroot to move on.

I'm glad she's so taken by the archetype! I'll try to write up something for unrooting, probably along the lines of your suggestions. As to slowing down the root action, I'd like to see how it works on your playtesting as a move action before I'd increase the time required.

LT Silverstar wrote:
I hope these comments help, as Gina showed us yesterday, it can be useful to see these things through new eyes.

I really do appreciate them, your comments are incredibly helpful and have vitally assisted in making the conversion as good as it is right now (and better as we work on it further).

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
ertw, have you considered adjusting the Cloaked Casting stats to that of Sneakspell?

I prefer the SR defeating capabilities (particularly the capstone option) to an additional +2 to DC. Building up to +4 DC with the SR options seems a bit overpowered to me.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:

Also, I thought the Master of Deception ability from that archetype was pretty cool.

Edit: Streetwise might be another good advanced talent. Sorry... I've just been browsing Bard archetypes for a friend and keep seeing Beguiler potential haha.

I could potentially offer streetwise for the theurgic brigand in lieu of trapfinding. Which of those two abilities do you think would you prefer to have?

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
I noticed Theurgic Brigands gain weapon proficiency with the sap. Maybe you could add a sap talent to knock targets unconscious? Or maybe a magic sap item since the archetypes don't get the raiment bonuses?

As I said to LT Silverstar, I'd prefer not to add more equipment, but you can definitely think about how what kind of goodies you might want for your specific character. There might be some magic items aimed at rogues that might offer good synergy with your brigand, though.

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