Dr. Armstrong: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the low-Wisdom cleric

[Ravingdork]

If Kurgess and Alex Louis Armstrong had a baby, that's the character I want to make.

I envision a bodybuilder cleric of Kurgess with high strength first, charisma second, and wisdom third. I would likely stick to healing, buff, and utility spells, as well as any other useful magic that didn't require high saving throws or attack rolls to be successful. In melee I would use my character's brute strength and buff spells to get by, and look absolutely gorgeous doing it!

I hold no illusions that it would ever be a powerful character, but I like to think that it would still work out just fine. I'm hoping you kind members of the forum community might be willing to give me some advice on realizing this concept without having it be a total drag on the rest of whatever party he ends up with.

[Deadmanwalking]

Bard Multiclass might be amusing and effective. Inspire Courage won't kick in until 8th level, but is very good once it does, and seems to suit the theme (since it can be inspiring speeches).

On a mechanical level, you're probably gonna want to use a javelin, so Deadly Simplicity is a very solid Feat. Zeal (for extra damage) or Might (for better combat maneuvers with your maxed Athletics, plus later pretty solid damage reduction once a fight) are the Domains that seem most relevant.

[Siro]

Going off of Deadmanwalking suggestion, you could go into Performance. Both characters seem to have a bit of a showman streak to them, and flexing off your shirt to show off you muscles would be has much of a Athletics check as it would be a Performance.

Getting Versatile Performance from the Bard could help you be inspiring in a social setting, making friends with fellow bodybuilders and Halfling alchemists alike, inspiring them to greater heights, while your physic strikes fear in those that fight against you. Not really sure where the Impersonate part comes given how straight lace Armstrong is, and this may be seen close to 'cheating' on the Kurgess side. Meh, not everything can always match up perfectly, and I can see some occasions when both these characters would consider it if it was the only option {saving lives, preventing competitors from just giving up before trying because your there participating, ect.}

[Pirate Rob]

I don't even think something like that is necessarily weak.

Here is the build skeleton for my low wis battle cleric of Iomedae.

Here is what their character sheet currently looks like at level 3.

I happen to have taken a very defensive route with champion dedication further improving shield block and helping out with heavy armor.

Clearly not an identical character, but may provide some useful thought.

[Hiruma Kai]

While I realize its not the direction you are requesting, given the desire to be in melee, the fact that Armstrong's moves are all basically punching (combined with alchemy), both want to go around bare chested, and the requested stat distribution, I'd almost suggest Monk base with Mountain stance plus Cleric Archetype at level 2.

But if you're going Cleric primary, you could go Monk Archetype and grab mountain stance at level 4. So you still get a similar setup with a lot more spells by level 4. Levels 1-3 will be rough if you go Armstrong style clothing though. Powerful fists makes you not terrible at simply punching, and mountain stance unarmed combat is 1d8 plus forceful, a solid martial weapon. Grabbing shield block with a general feat and carrying a steel shield isn't a terrible idea as well.

If you don't mind wearing heavy armor and simply using gauntlets for your melee, then the Cleric + Champion archetype is probably a better option, although offense will suffer (1d4 agile vs 1d8 forceful).

[NemoNoName]

I've been toying a while with making melee focused Druid shifter. Str, Dex, Con. No increase to Wisdom I don't have to take (maybe even take a penalty there).

If you focus on buffs and healing and transmutation, well :D clear win-win

[Ravingdork]

Odd that you can take a penalty to your class' main stat, but must pump that stat when using multiclass archetypes.

[Castilliano]

Ravingdork wrote:

Odd that you can take a penalty to your class' main stat, but must pump that stat when using multiclass archetypes.

As has been suggested before, it may be harder to multiclass (in character) because it's a side gig. You have to be more intrinsically capable of such abilities, as you're devoting less time.

I find it more odd there's no way to stop pursuing what you began as. So no warlords turning to become masters of the dark arts (well, not among PCs at least).

Mechanically, I believe the costs & benefits of the MCDs were factored in. Example; Paizo perhaps doesn't want somebody who's ignoring Con getting access to a Barbarian's Rage h.p., Resiliency, & Master Fortitude Saves.
So those stats are costs, and I think with an eye to the benefits given and the greater minmaxing schema.

Martial MCDs often needing two stats has led to the funny situation where it's relatively easy & easier to pick up magic, especially Wis magic (assuming nearly all PCs want 14+ Wis). I guess it's easier to join a cult (that actually delivers BTW!) than a martial academy.

[rainzax]

In exploring this idea myself ("Low Wisdom Cleric"), I put together a hot list of Non-Contested Core Divine Spells that:

1) Do not offer saving throws
2) Don't require spell attack rolls
3) Don't inherently use counteract modifier
4) Are "combat related" somehow (leaves out spells like Augury, Comprehend Languages, etc)

It is by no means exhaustive, but does include Heighten levels for spells that do so. The list, I concluded, far from being shabby, is simply quite focused.

Spoiler:

0th: Guidance, Shield, Stabilize
1st: Bless, Disrupting Weapons, Heal (+X), Magic Weapon, Protection, Spirit Link (+X)
2nd: Darkvision, Faerie Fire, Resist Energy, Restoration, See Invisibility
3rd: Circle of Protection, Darkvision (3rd), Disrupting Weapons (3rd), Heroism, Sanctified Ground, Shield Other
4th: Air Walk, Circle of Protection (4th), Freedom of Movement, Restoration (4th), Resist Energy (4th), Vital Beacon (+X)
5th: Breath of Life, Darkvision (5th), Deathward, Disrupting Weapons (5th), Drop Dead, Summon Celestial (+X)
6th: Field of Life, Heroism (6th), Raise Dead (+X), Restoration (6th), Righteous Might, Stone to Flesh
7th: Divine Vessel, Energy Aegis, Ethereal Jaunt, Plane Shift, Regenerate, Resist Energy (7th)
8th: Antimagic Field, Divine Aura, Divine Inspiration, Field of Life (8th), Moment of Renewal, Righteous Might (8th)
9th: Divine Vessel (9th), Energy Aegis (9th), Ethereal Jaunt (9th), Field of Life (9th), Foresight, Heroism (9th), Overwhelming Presence, Regenerate (9th)
10th: Avatar, Gate, Miracle, Remake, Revival

Cheers.

[Ravingdork]

Thanks! That's most helpful.

[jdripley]

My feeling is that whatever your "thing" is, you need an 18 at best or at very least a 16 in the stat that runs it. So a warpriest with a 16 STR is fine. Clearly not top of the line, but fine.

rainzax lists a whole mess of spells that don't need a high stat, those will definitely be the spells for you if you.

I have a player who has boosted Charisma over basically EVERYthing else on his cleric. He wants to have a huge divine font pool. He wants to cast the support type spells. He's basically made a completely passive character. I suspect that he'll get bored. I suspect that there will be moments when it would be convenient for him to be able to take any offensive action.. even a mediocre one... to save the day, and he won't be able to. I really hope my prediction is wrong.

So compared to that, a Cleric of Swole sounds downright amazing :)

[graystone]

One thing to think about is picking up innate spells. They'll use your classes spell proficiency but will use CHA. So you can pick them up with racial feats and/or snag something like the Runescarred.

For instance a human can pick up Arcane Tattoos/Ornate Tattoo/Virtue-Forged Tattoos for a cha based cantrip, 1st and 3rd level spells. Runescarred will get you 1 cantrip through 6th level spells.

[rainzax]

graystone wrote:

One thing to think about is picking up innate spells. They'll use your classes spell proficiency but will use CHA. So you can pick them up with racial feats and/or snag something like the Runescarred.

Citation?

[graystone]

rainzax wrote:

graystone wrote:

One thing to think about is picking up innate spells. They'll use your classes spell proficiency but will use CHA. So you can pick them up with racial feats and/or snag something like the Runescarred.

Citation?

Innate Spells

Source: Core Rulebook pg. 302

"If your proficiency in spell attack rolls or spell DCs is expert or better, apply that proficiency to your innate spells, too. You use your Charisma modifier as your spellcasting ability modifier for innate spells unless otherwise specified."

PS: this is also a way to give the bard some real attack cantrips by picking innate spells from a non-occult spell list.

[rainzax]

graystone wrote:

rainzax wrote:

graystone wrote:

One thing to think about is picking up innate spells. They'll use your classes spell proficiency but will use CHA. So you can pick them up with racial feats and/or snag something like the Runescarred.

Citation?

Innate Spells

Source: Core Rulebook pg. 302

"If your proficiency in spell attack rolls or spell DCs is expert or better, apply that proficiency to your innate spells, too. You use your Charisma modifier as your spellcasting ability modifier for innate spells unless otherwise specified."

PS: this is also a way to give the bard some real attack cantrips by picking innate spells from a non-occult spell list.

This opens up so many new concepts!!!