Heightened Invisibility


Advice

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Sorry Singing* continuously only so my allies know where I am.


I would say if your allies could pinpoint where you are through you singing, then any creatures can do the same, as long as they have hearing.

However, looking at text of ´Lingering Performance’ I don’t think you would be continuously singing when you use it (just the initial performance would have sound). This is because , LP extends the cantrip composition benefits, not that the cantrip is being recasted each turn, which is the thing that gives you away due to sound, as it has the verbal component. LP also has the verbal component, but again your only using it when you cast the cantrip.

Admittedly, take what I say with a grain of salt on this, as I do not have much exp with LP and I could have missed something major ( my interpretation can cause some weird RP stuff, as on subsequent turns your allies could still be inspired by you, even though they don’t see or hear you. On the other hand, this is ultimately a magic effect, and well, magic is sometimes weird)


When using Heightened Invisibility if I cast a level 2 Ventriloquism spell would that help throw off my enemy from any sounds my compositions would be making? Just trying to figure out the best way to protect myself as I'm pretty squishee.


anyone? I'm contributing on the front lines and casting offensive spells, minimal buffing of allies besides inspire courage mostly debuffing of enemies, so I'm almost wondering if Mirror Image would be a better substitute?


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I think Ventriloquism would help, yes..


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Unfortunately, Ventriloquism would not help conceal your compositions even if you were Invisible. This is because they are still treated as spells, and according to page 302 “When you Cast a Spell, your spellcasting creates obvious visual manifestations of the gathering magic, although feats such as the Conceal Spell or Melodious Spell can help hide such manifestations, or otherwise prevent observes from noticing you are casting.”

As far as Mirror Image VS LV4 Invisibility, it really depends how often you find yourself being targeted. Mirror Image is the ‘cheaper’ spell, and will actually provide better protection when you have all 3 images up. However they can disappear fairly quickly, as even on a miss (but not a crit miss) an image disappears, and so you may have to cast it multiple times in a battle, and you may find yourself getting attacked before you had a chance to recast it. But, if you find the enemies tend to focus on other party members, you may be able to get away with it, and use your higher spell slots on other spells.

LV4 Invisibility is a decently high spell slot to cast, which is also something to consider, in terms of how much spell resources you are devoting to it. But it should provide protection for the whole battle (even if they know your ‘square’ anything targeted against you as a 50% chance to miss, along with ‘generally’ having to meet you AC.). Plus, there is also the advantage of being able to apply it to you buddies, which you do not have with ‘Mirror Image’.


Siro wrote:

Unfortunately, Ventriloquism would not help conceal your compositions even if you were Invisible. This is because they are still treated as spells, and according to page 302 “When you Cast a Spell, your spellcasting creates obvious visual manifestations of the gathering magic, although feats such as the Conceal Spell or Melodious Spell can help hide such manifestations, or otherwise prevent observes from noticing you are casting.”

As far as Mirror Image VS LV4 Invisibility, it really depends how often you find yourself being targeted. Mirror Image is the ‘cheaper’ spell, and will actually provide better protection when you have all 3 images up. However they can disappear fairly quickly, as even on a miss (but not a crit miss) an image disappears, and so you may have to cast it multiple times in a battle, and you may find yourself getting attacked before you had a chance to recast it. But, if you find the enemies tend to focus on other party members, you may be able to get away with it, and use your higher spell slots on other spells.

LV4 Invisibility is a decently high spell slot to cast, which is also something to consider, in terms of how much spell resources you are devoting to it. But it should provide protection for the whole battle (even if they know your ‘square’ anything targeted against you as a 50% chance to miss, along with ‘generally’ having to meet you AC.). Plus, there is also the advantage of being able to apply it to you buddies, which you do not have with ‘Mirror Image’.

Awesome very insightful thanks a lot Siro!


I just realized I wouldn't be able to Demoralize if I was invisible hmm.


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Demoralize {from Intimidation} only as the Auditory trait, not the visual, so you should be good in that regard, for the most part. Now, a bit strangely, if the target can't hear you, you only take a penalty to the roll {i guess because its assumed you would also be using Intimidating body language and such}. If I were the GM, I would rule if the creature cannot Hear and See you, then Demoralize would not work on them, because they don't know they are getting Demoralized

If your using Versatile Performance to sub out Intimidation for Demoralize checks, it gets a bit more trickier, as some types of Performance generally have the Visual Trait. The simple solution would be to sub out one type of Performance for one that does not generally have the visual trait {playing an Instrument, Orate, Singing, ect}. But I also get the feeling between Feats and items, your better at a Performance type that is generally Visual {Acting I believe, from the other thread.} The advice I gave you there should work here as well, come up with an Acting Performance that as a reason not to be Visual, such as acting as a creature which normally remains unseen {allowed by the book, but it is up to DM on what traits the Performance has}. I think I mentioned this in the other thread as well, but Acting as the voice of a Deity can be pretty Intimidating/Demoralizing to someone which believes the Act. {ie, " I,<Insert Deity here, followed by long list of titles> am disappointed by you actions, and will be sending down my divine wrath to punish you in this life, and the life after death."}


Awesome! That certainly could work, I guess the only thing that wouldn't work would be Intimidating Glare. I would still suffer the penalty for not sharing a language though right?


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Yup on both accounts. Comprehend Languages at LV3 or above can avoid the not sharing language problem. The Bard I've been playing with has it partly because he does use Intimidation/Demoralize in battle, and recently, Diplomacy through the 'Legendary Negotiation' feat, but mostly because he is the party face, which is a bit difficult thing to do if you cannot communicate with the creature you are trying to be the party face to. Personally, I think this is the simplest way to ensure language.

The Multilingual skill feat can be a cheap way of gaining languages you need, and if you do get up to Legendary in Society {not something I would change my entire build for} you can get Legendary Linguist to avoid language barriers altogether, at least with speech anyways. I also think you can use the Retraining activity to switch some languages, but I will need to double check.

There is also a ring called Bort's Blessing, introduced in "the Fall of Plaguestone', which, during your Daily Preparations, you can select 1 common language, and you will know that language until your next Daily Preparation. Be aware, it is a 'Rare' item, so be prepared to go on a quest for it, and your DM may not let you have it at all. Choker of Elocution can also grant you a language, but that the language it will grant you is decided at the time of its creation meaning you cannot change it, but it can grant uncommon languages, and is a 'Common' item, which only costs 200gp. At higher levels, its feasible to have a couple around with different languages, and swap them out at the beginning of each day to one which has a language you think you will need. {Side benefit, it also reduces the Flat check to Auditory action while Deafened from 5 to 3, which as someone whom seems to use Acting, and is a Spellcaster, could be helpful on occasion.}

There are probably other ways I am missing {Edit= just having good Int for starters} to gain Languages, but I think I have gone on to long on a subject which may be somewhat niche to the conversation.


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Siro wrote:
...

Or perhaps Tongues.


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Atalius wrote:
Siro wrote:
...
Or perhaps Tongues.

Tongues can also work. Tongues in comparison to Comprehend Language as the disadvantage of being higher level {if your just talking about understanding and speaking a language, its a LV5 spell versus LV3}, and it is 'Uncommon'. However, it also has the great advantage of being much easier to use, as you just understand everything without set up, while Comprehend Language requires you to be hearing or reading the language you are trying to understand {meaning you may have to waste a turn setting up in battle, and you may not get a chance to use it if the creature does not speak.}. Plus, while I have not personally run into a situation where there was a need for multiple languages yet, I can see situations where being able to understand them would be very useful. For example, a diplomatic meeting between different Ancestries, will most likely speak Common to each other, but they may speak there own Ancestries language to there own people, and it could be nice to know what everyone is saying.

Actually, the Bard I'm playing, while knowing a fair bit of Languages, carries around a small piece paper with a bit of writing form most languages he does not know. Between our Rogue trapped in a Rangers body, his Owl which she can see through thanks to an item, and my 'Prying Eye' spell, along with generally good knowledge to know what a creature may speak, we tend to be able scout pretty good, and for the odd time I do not know the language of a creature, I can per-cast 'Comprehend Language' using the paper. Not perfect, as even if you scout, you party can still get jumped, and during those few times I would most likely like to have Tongues {although I its only been, I believe twice when its happened when I did not know a language the creatures could understand.}


Very helpful advice thank you! Any idea what percentage of monsters roughly understand Common?


That I do not know, although I think a fair bit of creatures which speak a language speak Common. Actually, when I was compiling the list of creature that have a from of permanent Invisibility, 19 out of the 21 creatures either knew Common, or had 'Tongues' always on. Note however, creatures that can cast spells, or have some control over magic, also tend to be at least somewhat smart, and/or have a reason to interact with other creatures, and so would have a reason to know Common, meaning that particular static is slightly bias to say the least.

But for now, I going to bed. I do believe there was someone compelling a list, but languages statics aren't going to be as pressing as Save, Resistance, AC, ect statics for most people anyways.


indeed, I am very curious because of things like Demoralize without Intimidating Glare and Command.


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I could not find a break down of languages, so I made a rough one myself, at least for the 1st Bestiary.

For the love of language, how common is Common?


So with Nondetection it's only useful vs magic (detection, scrying, revelation), what's the best way to be undetectable or atleast very difficult to detect via just the Seek action which I imagine most of my enemies will use. How do I beat there Seek?


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Minus the obvious of better Stealth mod and roll high (stuff you already know) there really isn’t a magic solution. Even the LV8 ‘Disappearance’ Spell, which renders the user invisible to all observers senes (precise and imprecise), states you can be found with the seek action. However, being under a Heroism spell does give you a bonus t skills, and that includes Stealth. Also, creatures which are Blinded auto-crit fall any Perception based checks involving sight, and a -4 pen to all Perception checks if sight was there only précise sense. (Blindness/in certain situations Darkness ect, can achieve this, along with just gorging out the things eyes) Fascinated creatures also take a -2 pen to Perception checks, and cannot use actions which has the ‘Concentrate’ trait, except against the thing they are fascinated with. ‘Seek’ has the concentrate trait, and there are spells on the Occult list (such as Hypnotic Pattern) which gets creatures fascinated on something other than you. Just note, the condition ends if you or an ally commits an hostile action against it.

The Seek action does offer some help in this regard. It’s an action to use it, in other words, and conscious choice. If you offer no reason for a creature to use the Seek action, then you should be ok. Of course there is going to be a lot of situations which are going to alert creatures to your presence. Point number two, penalties can be placed on there Seek action (up to DM) depending on the distance, so, in general, the further away you are, the better chance you have to remain undetected against Seek. Point number Three, if precision is needed in order to locate something, then they either have to choose to look in a 30-foot cone, or a 15-foot burst area in there line of sight, auto failing if the creature is not in it. To circle back around to the threads original topic, I would say most creatures that rely on sight would fall into this category trying to seek out an Invisible creature, as they would be trying find small details (ie small tuffs of dirt being lifted as the creature walks, small patch of grass being held down where they may be standing ect, at least if the creature is trying to be stealthy) to find them. At least that’s what I would respectful discuss with the DM, assuming there was not something that would make me easier to spot, and assuming I have not missed a rule (which is very possible.). Plus you can always Sneak to become undetected again.

There are definitely other options I have missed, but it’s getting late. Hopefully these start giving you some ideas.

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