It says, "A bandolier can be dedicated to a full
set of tools, such as healer’s tools, allowing you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them."
Does this mean you can draw a potion and drink it in the same action? My players all say yes. So, we've been doing it that way.
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No. There is only an action economy benefits for tools.
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It says, "A bandolier can be dedicated to a full
set of tools, such as healer’s tools, allowing you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them."Does this mean you can draw a potion and drink it in the same action? My players all say yes. So, we've been doing it that way.
I think this only applies to things with the word "tools" in their name.
Alchemist's Tools
Artisan's Tools
Healer's Tools
Thieves' Tools
I personally would also allow kits, such as the following.
Climbing Kit
Disguise Kit
Repair Kit
Snare Kit
I would not allow the free draw with potions or alchemical items.
It says, "A bandolier can be dedicated to a full
set of tools, such as healer’s tools, allowing you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them."Does this mean you can draw a potion and drink it in the same action? My players all say yes. So, we've been doing it that way.
I think this only applies to things with the word "tools" in their name.
Alchemist's Tools
Artisan's Tools
Healer's Tools
Thieves' ToolsI personally would also allow kits, such as the following.
Climbing Kit
Disguise Kit
Repair Kit
Snare KitI would not allow the free draw with potions or alchemical items.
I agree with your whole post. I'll point out though that a Disguise Kit normally gets no benefit from a bandolier as it's action is measured in minutes unless you have the uncommon Firebrand feat Backup Disguise.
Is that not the case with nearly all of them?
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Is that not the case with nearly all of them?
Climbing is a per round action, Repair has a 1st level common skill feat Quick Repair that gets the actions down to 3 or 1 action with a high enough proficiency, the ranger Quick Snares feat gets 3 actions for a snare, Quick Alchemy needs tools, Battle Medicine for medicine, Disable a Device/Pick a Lock are 2 actions.
So every kit/tools has common options that let bandolier use matter except Disguise. SO if you see a disguise kit in a bandolier, you can be pretty sure that person is a Firebrand! ;)
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It does have a hidden action economy benefit, in that things stored in a bandolier are not stored in your backpack
"3 Retrieving an item stowed in your own backpack requires first taking off the backpack with a separate Interact action."
The 8 items of light bulk you can store in a bandolier can be retrieved with a single interact action, while items stored in your backpack require two interact actions to retrieve (one to remove your backpack, the other to rifle through it).
It says, "A bandolier can be dedicated to a full
set of tools, such as healer’s tools, allowing you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them."Does this mean you can draw a potion and drink it in the same action? My players all say yes. So, we've been doing it that way.
Our group has been running it this way. It gives potions, bombs, and other consumables more parity with our typical combat options that it makes resorting to them not such a clunky keel-over compared to "thwack it with your beatstick again."
Also, to our group, it makes no sense to run a healer's tools or thief's tools, both of which require two hands to use, to be drawn out freely and easily compared to an object like a potion or scroll that doesn't require two hands to be more difficult and taxing to do.
It also makes no sense to us when simply drawing them out without using the action required (since you need to get into position to utilize the tools) takes the same amount of time as performing the action (especially in the case of Battle Medicine) without the mechanical benefit of being able to do said action.
In short, applying the common sense rule has made our group's game feel and play much better in relation to unorthodox situations of consuming potions and bombs in-combat.
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consuming potions and bombs in-combat.
I would strongly advise against consuming bombs in-combat or otherwise.
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It says, "A bandolier can be dedicated to a full
set of tools, such as healer’s tools, allowing you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them."Does this mean you can draw a potion and drink it in the same action? My players all say yes. So, we've been doing it that way.
Our group has been running it this way. It gives potions, bombs, and other consumables more parity with our typical combat options that it makes resorting to them not such a clunky keel-over compared to "thwack it with your beatstick again."
Also, to our group, it makes no sense to run a healer's tools or thief's tools, both of which require two hands to use, to be drawn out freely and easily compared to an object like a potion or scroll that doesn't require two hands to be more difficult and taxing to do.
It also makes no sense to us when simply drawing them out without using the action required (since you need to get into position to utilize the tools) takes the same amount of time as performing the action (especially in the case of Battle Medicine) without the mechanical benefit of being able to do said action.
In short, applying the common sense rule has made our group's game feel and play much better in relation to unorthodox situations of consuming potions and bombs in-combat.
As an Advice answer, this is very reasonable, and it's always reasonable to consider whether a modified rule would be better for your group. As a Rules answer, it is incorrect.
It is important to keep the distinction between the two, so that if you do use a modified rule, your players know that what they should expect does not match the book. (If nothing else, anyone playing an alchemist should know not to waste a valuable Class Feat on Quick Bomber, if you are going to use a house rules that would give the effect of the feat for a few loose coins.)
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Battle Medicine for medicineBattle Medicine doesn't have Healers Tools as a prerequisite, so as far as I can tell, it doesn't need them at all.
That's a long running debate (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42pwu?Battle-Medicine-How-Many-Hands#1).
It says, "A bandolier can be dedicated to a full
set of tools, such as healer’s tools, allowing you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them."Does this mean you can draw a potion and drink it in the same action? My players all say yes. So, we've been doing it that way.
Our group has been running it this way. It gives potions, bombs, and other consumables more parity with our typical combat options that it makes resorting to them not such a clunky keel-over compared to "thwack it with your beatstick again."
Also, to our group, it makes no sense to run a healer's tools or thief's tools, both of which require two hands to use, to be drawn out freely and easily compared to an object like a potion or scroll that doesn't require two hands to be more difficult and taxing to do.
It also makes no sense to us when simply drawing them out without using the action required (since you need to get into position to utilize the tools) takes the same amount of time as performing the action (especially in the case of Battle Medicine) without the mechanical benefit of being able to do said action.
In short, applying the common sense rule has made our group's game feel and play much better in relation to unorthodox situations of consuming potions and bombs in-combat.
As an Advice answer, this is very reasonable, and it's always reasonable to consider whether a modified rule would be better for your group. As a Rules answer, it is incorrect.
It is important to keep the distinction between the two, so that if you do use a modified rule, your players know that what they should expect does not match the book. (If nothing else, anyone playing an alchemist should know not to waste a valuable Class Feat on Quick Bomber, if you are going to use a house rules that would give the effect of the feat for a few loose coins.)
We already know that this isn't how the rules actually work, just bringing it up to demonstrate that it's not as uncommon or unrealistic of a houserule.
I'm in another group that plays it with the original rules, and from the number of times I've seen Battle Medicine used compared to drinking potions or elixirs or other consumables, the anecdotal evidence supports that this rules change gives consumables much better parity compared to "Just let the healer spend less actions for an on-level benefit."
Conversely, I don't think we let that rule apply to bombs or other weapons (though it would make sense), since a weapon in a sheath isn't much different than a bomb in a bandolier. But if the rules don't let people draw weapons for free in one situation (or pseudo-free, like they did in PF1 where you drew weapons as part of movement), then for balance reasons it would make sense to not let other weapons be drawn for free, such as alchemical bombs and other splash weapons like holy water.
Bandolier question keeps coming up in posts. I really hope they add some additional clarification to it in next errata.
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Well, a bandolier DOES have a hidden action economy benefit for all items that can fit on it - if they are in your backpack, it takes an interact action to remove the backpack before you can take an interact action to retrieve an item from your backpack, while a bandolier or belt pouch item only requires one interact action.
Basically, you never want to keep anything you want to access mid-combat in your backpack.
That's a long running debate (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42pwu?Battle-Medicine-How-Many-Hands#1).Battle Medicine for medicineBattle Medicine doesn't have Healers Tools as a prerequisite, so as far as I can tell, it doesn't need them at all.
It is a long running debate on RAI, not RAW (regardless of how dumb RAW is in this case, but then again... patching someone up in 6 seconds to any meaningful degree mid battle for one action is insane anyway). So when discussing the topic like this it is worth pointing out.
To allow potions and alchemical items the benefit of not having to use an Interact action to use makes the Quick Bomber feat for an alchemist meaningless.
Good.
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Just a note on why tools are drawn as part of the action from a bandolier. You aren’t taking out the entire set of tools like you would be from a pouch or a backpack. You have all of the tools spread between the various compartments on the bandolier, and you are only taking out the parts of the tool kit that you actually need to use at the time. So the specific lock pick or the roll of bandages or whatever is contained within the toolkit in question.
The tools take up the entire bandolier because of that. Unlike a potion, which only takes up 1/8th of it.
To allow potions and alchemical items the benefit of not having to use an Interact action to use makes the Quick Bomber feat for an alchemist meaningless.Good.
Tentatively agree.
Honestly, a Feat that allowed you to use a Bandolier in exactly the way that its commonly misconstrued (Like Quick Bomber, but not limited to bombs) would probably be excellent as a Skill or General feat.
But by RAW, as discussed, they only provide benefits to tools and indirectly to other items by virtue of them not being in your backpack.
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The bandolier in 1E technically didn’t let you do anything any faster, so this is already an improvement. I think it was mostly run as letting you draw weapons and such as though they were easily accessible, and sometimes as letting you get other things faster, but the actual text said that you could use the retrieve a stored item action, which was the same action to retrieve something from your backpack.
The bandolier putting something in easy reach to require a single action to retrieve instead of two is the benefit. It has the extra benefit for tools, with the trade off that you can’t put anything else in the bandolier.
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The true benefit I find from the bandolier is not me getting the better AE to draw a potion, it's my party mates being able to quickly find my potion to dump it down my unconscious throat.
It is a less severe break of verisimilitude for my PC to tell the other party members, "Now remember, I always keep a healing potion in the top loop of my bandolier."
Just a note on why tools are drawn as part of the action from a bandolier. You aren’t taking out the entire set of tools like you would be from a pouch or a backpack. You have all of the tools spread between the various compartments on the bandolier, and you are only taking out the parts of the tool kit that you actually need to use at the time. So the specific lock pick or the roll of bandages or whatever is contained within the toolkit in question.
The tools take up the entire bandolier because of that. Unlike a potion, which only takes up 1/8th of it.
Sure, but then why can't you take out an equal-sized (or smaller sized) item out in the same amount of time?
Unless you state balance as the reason for you not being able to do that, it makes no sense. Which is fine.
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Sure, but then why can't you take out an equal-sized (or smaller sized) item out in the same amount of time?Because that is not how they wrote the rules. I think the likely reason is game balance.
Pretty much everything is about game balance, yeah. The 3 action system is great and has been working really well. When you start to ignore it, though, that’s when things will begin to feel overpowered. Power creep is going to happen. Power creep on top of ignoring things like drinking a potion intentionally taking an action to retrieve is where powerful options will begin to feel like overpowered options very quickly. It’s why I suspect Battle Medicine will be clarified in a way that it requires tools and at least one hand free, though that was a result of a feat that could have been written more clearly in the first place. Bandolier could maybe use that additional clarity as well, but I’m just doubtful it’s going to do anything more than what it currently says it does.
Sure, but then why can't you take out an equal-sized (or smaller sized) item out in the same amount of time?
Unless you state balance as the reason for you not being able to do that, it makes no sense. Which is fine.
Game balance swings a number of ways though. Tool actions generally take 3 actions (before feats), so if you wanted to use them in combat it would take two turns with a bandolier. Let alone the realism attached to using any of them in combat ;)
Realistically I see both as abstractions anyway, withdrawing, uncorking and drinking a potion would likely take more time than one action but we abstract it because it works better for the game.