Siro's page

I would recommend also taking a look at the Skill Point Variant system as well. Our group as been enjoying the flexibility of it, as it allows the option over time to become 'good' with many skills or a 'master' of a few.

One thing you may wish to watch out for in a No level to Prof. system are things which are balanced by there level. For example 'Summon 'X' spells become much more powerful, as the creature summoned are a lot closer stat wise to the creature they are facing when not including level bonuses.

I could be wrong here, but what I'm getting from this is it’s possible to bring to the table a party of= 1) Mace Windu from Star Wars 2) Nick Fury from the Marvel Universe 3) Jules Winnfield from Pulp Fiction, and...4) Frozone from the Incredibles

"He has control of the Senate and the Courts. He's too dangerous to be left alive. I recognize the council has made a decision, but given that it's a stupid-a** decision, I've elected to ignore it. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee. Where's my super suit?"

Its possible, but also remember the other side. It was errata'd to fix an issue, referencing a spell which no did not exist in the PF2 world.

'Vampiric Touch' on the staff is non-problematic. Making another errata to change it back would require more work, and possibility changing already updated printings, for something which is not an issue, in terms of gameplay.

And it would also mean an item from the Core Rulebook would reference something outside of it.

I like the Ankou personally. The idea of a Fey Assassin is cool, and the lore behind it how it ties into its abilities, such as its attacks being counted as 'Cold Iron' making Fey prey easier to kill, or its innate spells making it easier to follow, and prevent the escape of its target. Its summon ability does these as well while also ensuring it can temporary become a one-monster assassin team, plus its cool regardless. A feared assassin either as an agent of a more powerful being or itself being said powerful being, both which can be used to set up some pretty good storylines and encounters.

Plus its Deception game is so on point and old school that its hidden it as 'Bluff' in its stat block [at least in the PDF Bestiary 2 version, Nethys as the correct name for the skill.]

Hammerspace wrote:

Making the spontaneous cantrips strickly inferior compared to prepared cantrips.

Theoretically true, but unlikely to have significant expression in practical play.

Both prepared and spontaneous caster players are more likely to set their cantrips and rarely, if ever, change them and be satisfied with that than they are to feel like there would be benefit to actually change things around - because 5 cantrips is enough to cover your bases.

Generally agreed for spellcasting classes, though there are some somewhat notable exceptions, such as preparing certain cantrips to fight certain foes {elemental weakness and such}, and in situations where a niche cantrip could be used to solve a problem, {preparing 'Know Direction' because it took your party a day of getting lost before anyone figured out no one bought a compass, 'Sigil' on off days to mark your stuff ect.}

However this problem gets a bit more noticeable with MC Spellcasters,whom only have two cantrips to work with, and are less likely to have cantrips to cover there bases, but the prepared MC as the benefit of swaping out spells to the situation they believe they are going to face. This is not a dire situation to MC spontaneous casters as they still have there based class to fall back on, but it is a bit more noticeable.

Hmm, while this may be a grey in terms of RAI, I have not found anything contrary to what you have stated, at least in my quick search anyways. {note: we both could be proven wrong still, muticlassing and spell casting can be a bit complicated at times, so I would still tread carefully.}

Now there may be certain RP concerns, I'm pretty sure some gods may get a bit miffed your taking there carefully prepared spells and cannibalizing them with your Arcane trickery. Nethys would probably be ok with it though, at the very least.

To Mr. FedoraFerret. I would like to thank you for the Guide. While there are one or two spells I disagree (Maze’s Versatility for example, as there is nothing preventing you from using it on yourself or a friend in danger as a way to save them/ give the person time to heal/buff, though this does mean a Mazed foe can do the same.), there are many spells you have made me see in a new light (the multiclass lying Rogue in my group is going to have a new toy in Zealous Conviction because of you, when he gets to that level.) I have found your insights interesting, and the guide something to note when thinking of spell selection. Thank you for the effort placed into it and the insights you have given.

The DC is based on the highest Level creature you are trying to affect, the DC's being found on Level-Based DC's Chart . If the highest level creature you are trying to affect is Level 6, the DC would be 22 {DC 32 for a crit.} If say an creature you were trying to affect was Level 7, it would go up to a DC 23 {DC 33 for a crit}

Note the part a GM may assign a different DC based on circumstances. For example, if you were to Inspire Heroics by sing a holy hem about a deity, in one of there temples, and the targets were their followers, I would make the check easier. Alternatively, if the targets are under a 'Fascinated' effect that is not centered on you, I would make the DC a bit harder.

.....cowabunga?

I’m liking the book. The skill point varient option is a great addition, as it allows for a character to choose if they want to be a master of a handful of skills, or good at all of them.

Also liking (so far)ABP in combination with the removal of level bonus option. Really does make a more grittier world, and I think it may be great for someone trying to run a more open sandbox game. (You don’t need to worry as much about level gap.)

I believe it’s only to land speed. Boots of Bounding only mentions the word ‘Speed’ with no specifying words, and on Page 463 of the Core rule book it mentions when no specifics are given to what type of speed, it is assumed to be land speed.

In battle, it can be used as a makeshift wall for a pretty low spell level, dividing the battlefield in your favour, act as a road block, provide a place to hide behind ect (as others have mentioned). You could also use it to ‘create’ machines of war, such as a catapult to intimidate the enemy, or things that may distract them, such as making a huge gem appear in the bushes your party is running past, so all of you can make a retreat while your foes argue about the newly found wealth.

There are also uses outside of battle, such as using it to hide your party, or use the illusion as bait for an ambush. Somewhat niche but if you need to describe someone, you could ‘create’ a painting of there image

For level 2 the hour means you don’t need to be as exact in your timing, and the extra time can be used to hide you party even longer or invite the whole district to look at the painting of the guy your chasing (or at a statue of your general awesomeness.) The addition of sounds, touch ect... makes your trickery more believable, both in its use and what you create. Imagine what you can do with the ability to summon a 20 foot burst of a congealed pile of rotting fish guts, which lasts for an hour, as the smell of rotting fish guts, and can’t be ‘Cleaned’, while being able to cast it up to 500 feet away. I mean you would only use this power to attract flies to feed your frog Familiar. Never something petty or evil, like using it in the middle of an important dinner party being thrown by the Baron, the same one whom had you locked up because he didn’t take you attempt on trying to influence him with ‘Suggestion’ with good humour.

The spell does not disappear from your spell book if you learn another, once the spell is in your book, it remains there.

Learn a spell rules/prices This should be all rules about adding a spell to your book. Note, there is a minimum cost of materials to add a spell to your book, in addition to any other costs which may occur (you could buy a scroll to learn it, pay some gold to have someone teach it to you ect. However you may convince someone to teach it to you for free, copy it from a looted spellbook, ect)

You may also look into the Magical Shorthand Skill Feat if your planning on using and adding spell to your spellbook.

Hostile Action {From Page 305 of the Core Rulebook)

"Sometimes spell effects prevent a target from using hostile actions, or the spell ends if a creature uses any hostile actions. A hostile action is one that can harm or damage another creature, whether directly or indirectly, but not one that a creature is unaware could cause harm. For instance, lobbing a fireball into a crowd would be a hostile action, but opening a door and accidentally freeing a horrible monster would not be. The GM is the final arbitrator of what constitutes a hostile action."

So any action that knowingly could cause harm or damage would be considered a hostile action, even if said action ultimately did not cause harm, dependent on DM. If the enemy throws something at a 'Calmed' creature with the intent to harm, it would break the spell, even if said thrown object misses, as it is still a hostile action against it.

As far as AOO, I think this is a bit of a grey area. I would say if the Trigger for the AOO was 'Targeted for an attack' then they could still do it, as the breaks when they are targeted, {ie, spell breaks and they can reaction at the same time}. But this is arguable {Reactions are a bit complicated, the fact that the triggering action is also what breaks the spell and timing of it leaves some grey area, ie "Which one is the cart, and which one is the horse?").

I’ve been doing the Spellcasting/Face/Knowledge (thanks to Bardic Lore)and enjoying it. It’s been working out good, been able to support with knowledge checks, spells, and making friends while also throwing out the occasional offensive spell (loving Phantasmal Calamity.). However, because Int went in favour of Dex, (will end up maxing out at 18 for Dex) weapon attacks tend to be the Plan D, and he likes to stay back in battle. (Jack of all trades can’t be master of all of them.).

For a small period, I was considering taking the Druid dedication feat/other Druid feats to make a pathfinder 2e take of a Fochlucan Lyricist, but decided against because it did not fit the character. Still, I think there is a cool concept to be made with a Gnome Bard, and the ‘Burrow Elocutionist/Animal Elocution.” Ancestry feats, along with ‘Green Empathy’ Druid feat, to make a character the can pretty well talk and make friends with anything alive. (And even things that aren’t, as long as they got a mind)

I'll mess things up: what if the chair is a mimic?

Why else would you fireball a chair? Assume every chair is guilty of trying to eat you until proven innocent.

It is a bit buried, but on page 562, you can only feed a potion to a creature in reach and is willing, or is so helpless they can’t resist (an interact action on the potion givers part.). So, as long as the ally is willing, the Alchemist should be good.

This makes the Familiar a bit more useful to the Alchemist as the can spend one action to command the familiar to draw a potion (Familiar’s 1st action) and feed it to him (Familiar’s 2nd action), instead of having to spend 2 actions himself. Just remember, ‘Interact’ as the ‘Manipulate’ trait, meaning the Familiar needs to have suitable appendages in order to use that action (ie. make sure it has the ‘Manual Dexterity’ Familiar ability. )

Just because I think this will be helpful=

Concealed
"While you are concealed from a creature, such as in a thick fog, you are difficult for that creature to see. You can still be observed, but you’re tougher to target. A creature that you’re concealed from must succeed at a DC 5 flat check when targeting you with an attack, spell, or other effect. Area effects aren’t subject to this flat check. If the check fails, the attack, spell, or effect doesn’t affect you."---Core Rule Book, Page 618}

Strike
"You attack with a weapon you’re wielding or with an unarmed attack, targeting one creature within your reach (for a melee attack) or within range (for a ranged attack)."---Core Rule Book, Page 471

A) The roll is made per targeted Attack, ie every time you target a creature with the 'Strike' action. Slightly different from per action, as it per 'targeting'.

B) MAP applies. Its not that the 'Strike' gets negated, its just your attack can miss, similar to how your attack can miss because your 'Strike' does not meet the targets AC.

C) This one is the interesting one and is where the slight difference comes into play. 'Twin Takedown' states you make two 'Strikes' against your hunted prey, and as each 'Strike' is a targeted attack, yes you would need to roll the flat check for each.

Is it weird to say that this is the product I've been most looking forward too since the PF2 playtest, including the PF2 core rule book? Because apparently I think it makes sense to release a book that used to help build a game world, before releasing the book that has the actual rules for the game. Now if you excuse me, I'm going to put on my pants followed by the underwear because apparently that works for Superman.

Hmm...This is quite <puts on shades> Befuddling. I would agree with your assumption its a Will save given you are affecting the targets mind according to the description.

As far as comparison to other spells, {note very quick look}=

-Magic Missile potentially deals less damage overall, but it is guaranteed damage with less resistances to worry about, and it has the flexibility in actions used. However it does not encourage creatures to spend actions striding and not attacking the party.

-Phantom Pain deals less persistent damage {damage over rounds} and the action used to stop it also ends the spell. However said action is not guaranteed to get rid and stop the damage, meaning the creature may also spend multiple actions to do so, and it can last up to a full minute {if it does I believe it will outpace the damage by round 5-6, if you also include the initial average damage}. While in effect, it also inflects the Sickened Condition, which lowers the ability of the target, and deals initial damage as well.

-Grim Tendrils deals less persistent damage {in the from of bleed}, and may not be big enough for a creature to waste actions fixing. However this does deal initial damage, can hit multiple targets, bleed does not have an expiry date. {so, at the very least if something does kill you, you leave with the knowledge they may still die yet}

A quick look at the spell, I think its really dependent on party composition. It deals a decent amount of damage, multiple times on a failure or worse. However the two breaking points for me are= 1) on a success it only lasts for 1 turn and 2) more importantly, the condition to negate the damage is a somewhat easy on to meet. At least in my experience, while it could be beneficial on creatures which have three -action abilities, most would not mind having to spend a 3rd action on a stride, because of MAP, or because spellcasters tend to want to move further away from the fight. <Note, that being said, an action they spend moving away, is an action not spend attacking, and it may make there next turn a little awkward depending on what your party does in the meantime, though it also may mean your party may have to spend actions chasing it.>

However this can be 'theoretically' be good in a party which have a couple of Attack of Opportunity users {Fighters get it off the bat, Barbarians can get the same in a feat, Monks can get a version which triggers on movement from a feat, ect.} The movement will still trigger the AOO, meaning the targeted creature will have to sit there and take the damage, or use one of there actions not harming the party and taking the attacks. Also could be good in a strategy that prevents creatures from striding. {ie the 'You can't stride if your trapped in a box' plan}

Do note, this is all theoretical, based on a opinion of a stranger on the internet, so take it with a grain of salt. The best laid plans rarely survival the battlefield, and this is most quick review of the spell is definitely not a best laid plan.

Yes it is possible to cast Comprehend Languages on a foe. The target line of a spell is ‘One Creature’ it does not specify ally. (Remember though, they need to be hearing a bit of common when you cast it.)

As far as if it’s worth it, it depends. You are pretty well using your turn to cast a min LV2 spell which will (most likely) not have an immediate impact, in hopes to later cast a spell which may still not work. However, if you already have both spells, and you got nothing else to do, it’s workable with your other team members. But remember, you are hoping for a a bit of things going right, as the creature needs to fail it’s save against the command, and your allies need to be in position, and you are also giving up a turn minus an action to get it set up, and at least a LV1 and LV2 spell to do it.

It does get better though, depending on how many options are blocked for you and your party due to a language barrier. The main downside is the set up turn, as it does not provide a real benefit until your next turn comes, and against a boss this may be a bit too slow. If this is a gateway for ‘Demoralize’ checks from the party in general, or to enable other party members spells, ect, then the Comprehend Language turn becomes a boost to enable the options everyone may have spent character resources for, and can be utilized by everyone right away.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

It is impossible to have too much reach. If I'm playing a fighter with a polearm, I'd like to threaten people on the moon if possible.

(shakes glaive at moon)

Stupid moon men! I'll get you yet!

“We know. That’s why we stay up here. To avoid your reach. Also there are Gnomes where you are, and we are just not ready to deal with there <insert not so polite word for poop here>.”

Minus the obvious of better Stealth mod and roll high (stuff you already know) there really isn’t a magic solution. Even the LV8 ‘Disappearance’ Spell, which renders the user invisible to all observers senes (precise and imprecise), states you can be found with the seek action. However, being under a Heroism spell does give you a bonus t skills, and that includes Stealth. Also, creatures which are Blinded auto-crit fall any Perception based checks involving sight, and a -4 pen to all Perception checks if sight was there only précise sense. (Blindness/in certain situations Darkness ect, can achieve this, along with just gorging out the things eyes) Fascinated creatures also take a -2 pen to Perception checks, and cannot use actions which has the ‘Concentrate’ trait, except against the thing they are fascinated with. ‘Seek’ has the concentrate trait, and there are spells on the Occult list (such as Hypnotic Pattern) which gets creatures fascinated on something other than you. Just note, the condition ends if you or an ally commits an hostile action against it.

The Seek action does offer some help in this regard. It’s an action to use it, in other words, and conscious choice. If you offer no reason for a creature to use the Seek action, then you should be ok. Of course there is going to be a lot of situations which are going to alert creatures to your presence. Point number two, penalties can be placed on there Seek action (up to DM) depending on the distance, so, in general, the further away you are, the better chance you have to remain undetected against Seek. Point number Three, if precision is needed in order to locate something, then they either have to choose to look in a 30-foot cone, or a 15-foot burst area in there line of sight, auto failing if the creature is not in it. To circle back around to the threads original topic, I would say most creatures that rely on sight would fall into this category trying to seek out an Invisible creature, as they would be trying find small details (ie small tuffs of dirt being lifted as the creature walks, small patch of grass being held down where they may be standing ect, at least if the creature is trying to be stealthy) to find them. At least that’s what I would respectful discuss with the DM, assuming there was not something that would make me easier to spot, and assuming I have not missed a rule (which is very possible.). Plus you can always Sneak to become undetected again.

There are definitely other options I have missed, but it’s getting late. Hopefully these start giving you some ideas.

I could not find a break down of languages, so I made a rough one myself, at least for the 1st Bestiary.

For the love of language, how common is Common?

Forward=
These are the language percentage/ratio of the creatures within the 1st Bestiary. This does not include any creatures found within any supplemental material. I personally do not plan on updating the list {unless I win the lottery and find myself with a lot more spare time} but anyone is free to do so. There is not going to be any insane “Creatures which know only Draconic and Goblin, and also Gnomish but only during the full moon” or “Creatures which can speak to Sharks” type stats, and there is much room for improvement. Also, there may be errors, but hopeful there a minimal enough. If you do find some, just mention them in the comments {which I encourage people to look at to see corrections} Also, the question is why do this? Well, I did not find something like this {in my quick search anyways}, and language can be an important aspect to both players and DMs. Certain skills and spells rely on a creature understanding what you are saying, and while there may be ways to bypass this {Comprehend Language, Tongues ect}, these may not be accessible to everyone. Plus, if you can, why not save the spell slot?

Languages Known /// Understanding of Language gained through Spells and Abilities. (1)

Common Languages
Common= %41.25 {172/417} /// %44.6 {186/417}
Draconic= %20.38 {85/417} /// %21.58 {90/417}
Dwarven= %3.12 {13/417} /// %7.19 {30/417}
Elven= %6 {25/417} /// %10.07 {42/417}
Gnomish= %2.89 {12/417} /// %6.95 {29/417}
Goblin= %3.36 {14/417} /// %7.43 {31/417}
Halfling= %0.72 {3/417} /// %4.8 {20/417}
Jotun= %7.19 {30/417} /// %11.03 {46/417}
Orchish= %1.92 {8/417} /// %6 {25/417}
Sylvan= %9.11 {38/417} /// %13.19 {55/417}
Undercommon= %5.76 {24/417} /// %9.83 {41/417}

Uncommon Languages
Abyssal= %7.91 {33/417} /// %11.27 {47/417}
Aklo= %8.63 {36/417} /// %11.99 {50/417}
Aquan= %4.56 {19/417} /// %8.15 {34/417}
Auran= %4.08 {17/417} /// %8.15 {34/417}
Celestial= %8.39 {35/417} /// % 9.11 {38/417}
Gnoll= %0.96 {4/417} /// %5.04 {21/417}
Ignan= %7.91 {33/417} /// %11.99{50/417}
Infernal= %7.91 {33/417} /// %9.11 {38/417}
Nercil= %5.04 {21/417} /// %8.87 {37/417}
Shadowtongue= %0 {0/417} /// %4.08 {17/417}
Terran= %2.88 {12/417} /// %6.95 {29/417}

Secret Languages
Druidic= %0.96 {4/417} /// %5.04{21/417}

Other Languages {2}
Other Language: %1.2 {5/417} /// %5.28 {22/417}

Creatures without Languages
No Language: %27.82 {116/417}

Other Info:
Creatures which know at least one Common Language= %54.68 {228/417}
Creatures which know at least one Uncommon Language= %37.89 {158/417}
Creatures which know at least one Common and Uncommon Language= %26.14 {109/417}
Creatures which know at least one Common Language which include ‘Common’= %41.25 {172/417}
Creatures which know at least one Uncommon Language and ‘Common’= %21.1 {88/417}

417 creatures total

Notes
(1) This included any way to constantly understand any language such as always having ‘Tongues’. This does not include creatures which have the ability to temporally understand any language, such as through spellcasting. In total there was 17 I found. If they already understood a language without such means, and therefore accounted in the ‘Language Known’ they were not counted again, which is the reason why there is not always a 17 different between the two stats.

{2} This only includes creatures who only know languages which are not on the Common, Uncommon or Secret list. This does not included creatures which know these types of language in addition to either a Common or Uncommon language. While these languages may be hard to a PC to obtain, they can still be communicated with through spells or other abilities.

*Certain creatures know more languages, however the languages they can know are not definite, and therefore not represented. Any language they definitely {generally} know however are included. These creatures are= Succubus also know three additional mortal languages. Doppelganger also know two additional languages. Janni know one element language. Skulltaker can know additional languages through Skeletal Lore. Tengu Sneak knows 2 additional languages. Vampire Spawn Rogue, Vampire Count, and Vampire Mastermind, knows 1 regional language. Soulbound Doll can know anyone language typically Common. Chuul can know either Common or Undercommon.

*Certain creatures can understand certain languages, but cannot speak it, with one exception. Any language they can understand was included in the stats above. These creatures are= Giant Eagle cannot speak but does understand Auran and Sylvan. Elananx cannot speak but understand Sylvan. Ettin speak a pidgin of Goblin, Jotun and Orchish. Gogiteth can’t speak but understands Undercommon. Hell Hound and Nessian Warhound can’t speak, but understands Infernal. Homunculus can’t speak, but understands Common. Ofalth can’t speak, but understands Common. Pegasus can’t speak, but can understand Common. Quelaunt can’t speak, but can understand Aklo. Reefclaw can’t speak, but can understand Common. Remorhaz can’t speak, but understands Jotun. Shambler can’t speak, but can understand Common, Elven, Sylvan. Slurk can’t speak, but can understand Draconic. Warsworn can’t speak, but can understand Common. Wemmuth can’t speak, but can understand Aklo and Slyvan.

Other Notes:
-Draconic ended up being the 2nd most common language. A lot of Angels, Fiends and Devils know it, however they also have generally have Uncommon languages as well, and most Angels tend to have “Tongues”. Though, if you want a Common language to speak to most of these types of creatures, Draconic is the way to go, plus there are couple of creatures which only know Draconic.

-No one knows Shadowtongue, at least in the 1st Bestiary. This will change {if not already has change} when more creatures are introduced. Still you think at least the Shadow or Greater Shadow would have it.

-Creatures without languages were generally either mindless, or were a type of animal.

-As this only includes the 1st Bestiary, ratios and stats may change as more creatures are introduced. Hopefully though, it can still serve as a rough estimate of language percentage and ratio {at least until the ‘Shadow Bestiary’ introducing 300+ creatures which only know Shadowtongue gets released :p )

Siro wrote:

...

Or perhaps Tongues.

Tongues can also work. Tongues in comparison to Comprehend Language as the disadvantage of being higher level {if your just talking about understanding and speaking a language, its a LV5 spell versus LV3}, and it is 'Uncommon'. However, it also has the great advantage of being much easier to use, as you just understand everything without set up, while Comprehend Language requires you to be hearing or reading the language you are trying to understand {meaning you may have to waste a turn setting up in battle, and you may not get a chance to use it if the creature does not speak.}. Plus, while I have not personally run into a situation where there was a need for multiple languages yet, I can see situations where being able to understand them would be very useful. For example, a diplomatic meeting between different Ancestries, will most likely speak Common to each other, but they may speak there own Ancestries language to there own people, and it could be nice to know what everyone is saying.

Actually, the Bard I'm playing, while knowing a fair bit of Languages, carries around a small piece paper with a bit of writing form most languages he does not know. Between our Rogue trapped in a Rangers body, his Owl which she can see through thanks to an item, and my 'Prying Eye' spell, along with generally good knowledge to know what a creature may speak, we tend to be able scout pretty good, and for the odd time I do not know the language of a creature, I can per-cast 'Comprehend Language' using the paper. Not perfect, as even if you scout, you party can still get jumped, and during those few times I would most likely like to have Tongues {although I its only been, I believe twice when its happened when I did not know a language the creatures could understand.}

Yup on both accounts. Comprehend Languages at LV3 or above can avoid the not sharing language problem. The Bard I've been playing with has it partly because he does use Intimidation/Demoralize in battle, and recently, Diplomacy through the 'Legendary Negotiation' feat, but mostly because he is the party face, which is a bit difficult thing to do if you cannot communicate with the creature you are trying to be the party face to. Personally, I think this is the simplest way to ensure language.

The Multilingual skill feat can be a cheap way of gaining languages you need, and if you do get up to Legendary in Society {not something I would change my entire build for} you can get Legendary Linguist to avoid language barriers altogether, at least with speech anyways. I also think you can use the Retraining activity to switch some languages, but I will need to double check.

There is also a ring called Bort's Blessing, introduced in "the Fall of Plaguestone', which, during your Daily Preparations, you can select 1 common language, and you will know that language until your next Daily Preparation. Be aware, it is a 'Rare' item, so be prepared to go on a quest for it, and your DM may not let you have it at all. Choker of Elocution can also grant you a language, but that the language it will grant you is decided at the time of its creation meaning you cannot change it, but it can grant uncommon languages, and is a 'Common' item, which only costs 200gp. At higher levels, its feasible to have a couple around with different languages, and swap them out at the beginning of each day to one which has a language you think you will need. {Side benefit, it also reduces the Flat check to Auditory action while Deafened from 5 to 3, which as someone whom seems to use Acting, and is a Spellcaster, could be helpful on occasion.}

There are probably other ways I am missing {Edit= just having good Int for starters} to gain Languages, but I think I have gone on to long on a subject which may be somewhat niche to the conversation.

Demoralize {from Intimidation} only as the Auditory trait, not the visual, so you should be good in that regard, for the most part. Now, a bit strangely, if the target can't hear you, you only take a penalty to the roll {i guess because its assumed you would also be using Intimidating body language and such}. If I were the GM, I would rule if the creature cannot Hear and See you, then Demoralize would not work on them, because they don't know they are getting Demoralized

If your using Versatile Performance to sub out Intimidation for Demoralize checks, it gets a bit more trickier, as some types of Performance generally have the Visual Trait. The simple solution would be to sub out one type of Performance for one that does not generally have the visual trait {playing an Instrument, Orate, Singing, ect}. But I also get the feeling between Feats and items, your better at a Performance type that is generally Visual {Acting I believe, from the other thread.} The advice I gave you there should work here as well, come up with an Acting Performance that as a reason not to be Visual, such as acting as a creature which normally remains unseen {allowed by the book, but it is up to DM on what traits the Performance has}. I think I mentioned this in the other thread as well, but Acting as the voice of a Deity can be pretty Intimidating/Demoralizing to someone which believes the Act. {ie, " I,<Insert Deity here, followed by long list of titles> am disappointed by you actions, and will be sending down my divine wrath to punish you in this life, and the life after death."}

You sir are very creative, could you recommend another example of an auditory Acting performance? I will definitely try out the Ghost one for sure!

Why thank you but I ain't that creative, just slightly weaselly when it comes to things like this. You could be a spirit {thought I guess that just ghost without having to say 'Boo' as much} You could act as a voice from a deity, as there is good reason in PF why someone would not except to see a physical representation of a God in most places {for Inspire Courage purposes, choose a Deity your group generally likes, as its generally encouraging when the voice of God says you can do this. Alternatively you can choose one the group hates, whom tells them they can't do it, thereby encouraging them to do it out of spite.}

Though I guess the easiest way to come up with a lot of things is to look at the Bestiary, and find creatures whom are generally invisible {ie are under a permeate 'Invisibility' like effect, or has 'Invisibility' as an at will spell, creatures which can camouflage to there surroundings, ect. Creatures which not being seen would not be to far off the mark. } From a basic search= Choral, Balisse, Astral Deva, Ghalele, Greater Barghest, Cacodaemon, Quasit, Shenhazian, Imp, Faerie Dragon, Djinni, Green Hag, Night Hag, Lamia Matriach, Nilith, Poltergeist, Grig, Pixie, and Invisible Stalkers, all have a from of either permeate or at will Invisibility, and have the ability to speak in Common, either through knowing the language, or through 'Tongues'. There may be other creatures which utilize a less magical, or different forms of concealment as well.

Nope, unlike PF1, your Proficiency in Performance is not tied to one type, but to every type of Performance. This means, in terms of Proficiency anyways, your just as good of a Singer as you are an Actor. You can even see this in the Character sheet, as under the skills, the Lore options have a blank space to fill out what type of Lore it is {as there are many options} but for Performance, there is no blank space, because there is no multiple option distinction. {this is the same for Crafting btw, you are just as good of a shoe maker as you are a metal worker.}

As I mentioned, under the Skill on page 250, it Acting generally as Auditory, Visual and Linguistic traits, but it really up to the DM. {you may act that you are the 'Voice of Courage', that when people have the idea to run a save there own hide, you are that voice in the back of there head, telling they fight for something greater. Idk, whatever may work for your DM. Ie you could spin any sort of Acting to be Auditory only.}

However, Inspire Courage only requires the use of a Verbal component. Now as a Composition Cantrip, you do use a Performance for it {ie you could use Acting} and the spell would pick up traits of that performance. However, with just regards to Inspire Courage, you could use any Performance, even one that you are horrible at, as how well you perform as no effect on the spell itself. So, you could just tell an inspiring story instead.

However there may be RP reasons why, and has Ediwir said, Unusual Composition can change any of the Visual to Auditory, solving the problem. Now, I have not played with Unusual Composition to know how beneficial it is, but I do trust Ediwir when he says it has other benefits as well, and there could be Mechanical reasons I'm missing as well.

May not be the answer that you want, but according to page 250 of the core {under the skill section} Perform {Act} as the Auditory, Linguistic, and Visual traits. So its got both Auditory and Visual traits to it.

There does not seem to be a way to remove or exchange a traits in this, at least from an assured mechanical stance. However in the description of Performance again on Page 250 there is this line "When you use an action that utilizes the Performance skill, it gains one or more traits relevant to the type of performance. The GM might change these depending on the circumstances, but the most common performance based traits are listed below."

This means you could have some wiggle room on what traits are applied to a performance, depending on the DM's allowance. Now, from a very quick google, a lot of types of acting depends on body motion and body language {way to convey to the audience and such}. However, you could also try saying your acting as a 'Ghost' or something else which has a reason not to be visually represented. However, like I said, its going to largely up to DM fiat.

You could also try saying you are the 'Narrator' {many plays have have a off stage person setting the scene, background, prologues, ect} but you DM may rule this is more in the territory of Orate.

A couple of circumstances I have given them out are=

1) When a character does an action which as the likely possibility of harming them or place them in a worse situation {generally physical, though anything from giving up magic items to help a village, or giving credit for work to another to help them out} in an effort to prevent harm or otherwise help another. In other words, to be self-sacrificing or 'heroic', with a bit of a bonus if its for NPC's. This can also include undertaking a quest for someone, without any exceptions of reward.

2) Overcoming a great challenge or quest {somewhat like how you would gain Mythic Levels in PF1, though not has demanding.}

3) Really clever play. Sometimes, players come up with something really impressive, that you just have to say "Yeah that deserves a Hero point."

4) Meeting a milestone in a personal goal, depending on how difficult it was meeting it.

5) And of course, good roleplaying, especially if said roleplaying would not be mechanically advantageous to the situation. Example, I had a player playing a Barbarian for a one-shot. His character was not very bright, and extremely superstitious. The party was hired to hunt down a vampire in the area, and so the Barbarian prepared by buying every different holy symbol he could find {because Vampires are afraid of Gods, so if one is good, more must be better} and a mirror made of silver {because Vampires must dislike mirrors, and silver, so combining the two must be there worst nightmare.} During the battle, instead of taking out his greatsword, he took out his chain of holy symbols in one hand {ranging from Sarenrae to Urgathoa} and the mirror in the other. During the battle, he started trying to use his collection of holy symbols like a flail, and hide behind his mirror like a shield. I had to give him points for that.

Just had a chance to look at this. Super excited for the return of classic PF1 prestige classes.

Going to try to build me a Monk with the Shadowdancer prestige class, so I can build a PC which specializes in Shadow Boxing. :p

It also depends on party composition a bit. If you got someone else that can prepare it when needed (ie Wizard ect) for when you going into that ancient Elven tomb, or going out to deal with a certain monster, then it’s not has needed. If you have Esoteric Polymath feat, then you can also prepare it yourself one days when you think you will need it.

That being said, the Bard character I have been playing so far does have it has one of his signature spells. Has it been used every session? No. But the times it has been used, it’s been very beneficial in dispelling problematic effects, turning what could have been a major problem, into more of a annoyance. Now, in fairness, some of these problems may have been solved through other avenues, we just never really looked because we already had an answer. On the other hand, it was comforting to know we had somewhat of an off button to weird magical stuff, and our actions may have been different without this, even if it did not end up being used all the time, for better or for worse.

Unfortunately, Ventriloquism would not help conceal your compositions even if you were Invisible. This is because they are still treated as spells, and according to page 302 “When you Cast a Spell, your spellcasting creates obvious visual manifestations of the gathering magic, although feats such as the Conceal Spell or Melodious Spell can help hide such manifestations, or otherwise prevent observes from noticing you are casting.”

As far as Mirror Image VS LV4 Invisibility, it really depends how often you find yourself being targeted. Mirror Image is the ‘cheaper’ spell, and will actually provide better protection when you have all 3 images up. However they can disappear fairly quickly, as even on a miss (but not a crit miss) an image disappears, and so you may have to cast it multiple times in a battle, and you may find yourself getting attacked before you had a chance to recast it. But, if you find the enemies tend to focus on other party members, you may be able to get away with it, and use your higher spell slots on other spells.

LV4 Invisibility is a decently high spell slot to cast, which is also something to consider, in terms of how much spell resources you are devoting to it. But it should provide protection for the whole battle (even if they know your ‘square’ anything targeted against you as a 50% chance to miss, along with ‘generally’ having to meet you AC.). Plus, there is also the advantage of being able to apply it to you buddies, which you do not have with ‘Mirror Image’.

Conditions have also become a lot more important in PF2, and that includes Spellcasters, because you can’t bump spell DC to ridiculously high amount, and so the alternative is to get them down to your ‘level’.

In regards to saves a ‘Drained’ creature takes a pen to its Fort saves, a ‘Clumsy’ creature takes a pen to Ref saves and a ‘Stupefied’ creature takes a pen to Will saves. ‘Frightened’ inflicts a pen to all saves, but the condition value ticks down each round, making it not long lasting, but very useful as an all encompassing condition.

If that is the case, I would personally take Resilient Sphere {for reasons already mentioned} and Slow {because the Slowed condition can be really damaging to the BBEG, or anything giving your group trouble.} Hideous Laughter can serve the same purpose at a lower spell, but there are more thing going to be immune to it, and its concentration {which to be fair, in general trading one of your actions for one action of the BBEG, still tends to be a net positive for the group as a whole.}

Given you got a group of damage dealer, some of which I assume are up close specialists, you may wish to give 'Fly' some thought. {depending on group composition anyways.}

EDIT= Fear can also be a good one, as it can soften up a group of enemies when cast at LV3 {where I think it shines}. Would not however pick it up if your going to be getting 'Dirge of Doom'. {you don't want to clog up your tactics with do many fear effects, and 'Dirge of Doom' is generally the most solid choice for reliable debuffing, though at the cost of a class feat.}

Dimensional Anchor- Can be great if you know you are up against a foe which uses teleporting, as them teleporting can both cause problems for your party position, and they can use it to escape and cause problems for the party later. However it’s useless against anything else, and Bards only get 3, LV4 spells max (well four if you pick up Deep Lore, but that’s a level 18 feat.), so you do not have a lot of wiggle room for a spell which could be very situational. Could be good for in a spellbook with Esoteric Polymath, so you prepare it for when you need it, or a wand so you can always keep it on hand just encase.

Resiliencant Sphere- Its an interesting case. On the one hand, there is a size restriction, and you cannot heighten it to increase its HP or hardness, meaning at higher levels, it will fall sooner then later. However, it does still have 40hp and 10 hardness, which at lower levels can take a couple of actions to break, and even the most powerful foe will still need to spend an action breaking it. It also uses Ref for its saving throw, a save which is a bit hard to find on the Bard/Occult list. And, if need be, you can use it on an ally to protect them, or on yourself for the same.

Mirror Image- Not a bad LV2 spell for protection. If your role as a spell caster is to buff and such, then ‘Invisibility’ is the better choice. If however you play style would break Invisibility, then Mirror is a good substitute, as any hit they take for you not only saves you damage, but ‘wastes’ that foes action. However, the images can break pretty easily (ie, they break on an actual miss, as long as It was not a crit fail) so this is less a run into the middle of battle spell, and more of a take the occasion attack that may come your way while the actual tanks are tanking.

Phantasmal Killer- Good range, decently good damage that can be heighten (*note heightening the spell does not increase its damage on a successful save) With the exception of a crit success, it will inflict the Frightened condition, to varying degrees depending on the save. The crit failure effect is very good, even though this part has the ‘incapacitation’ trait. If they fail there save, the target dies, which means problem solved. If they save, the creature is still pretty boned, taking a good deal of damage, gaining Frightened 4, and have to waste there next turn fleeing. Can be really good at messing up a single living target, such as bosses, or as a way to quickly deal with one of its minions. Just keep note that it needs to be a living target, and the various traits on the spell can make creatures immune to its effects.

Warning, Joke advice coming {can't add anything of importance not already mentioned}=

If gelatinous cubes are anyway similar to gelatin, throwing fresh pineapple at it should eventually kill it, if you got enough pineapples and time. This is because the enzymes in the pineapple will slowly break down the protein molecules in the gelatin. It works on Jell-o anyways.

And we have a solution encase paizo ever creates the Jell-olatinous cube. {ok, I know I did a bad, I'll leave now :p}

Hmm, do you also have time with the Barbarian beforehand, and how ‘honorable’ do you want to be? Because you could ‘win’ the fight without fighting.

For example, using that Bardic Charisma of yours, invite that Barbarian to the local bar, to have a couple of friendly drinks before the match. Perhaps, using Performance, stir up a couple of local patrons to challenge the mighty Barbarian in different drinking games, all the while plying him with more alcohol (and I hope you have heavy coin pouches, since your going to most likely have to buy out half the bar before the Barbarian will get tipsy). Now your goal is to get him blackout drunk so he does not show up to the battle, and you win by default. (This is mostly for jokes, as I’m not even sure there are drunk rules in PF2, though I would assume after the 20th drink, a DM would start making roles, even without hard rules. Though mainly to showcase the ‘fight’ does not necessary begin at the start of battle.)

Count me as someone who appreciates the work you put into it FedoraFerret. I really enjoyed your insights on the Fighter feats in particular.

Wether the feats are worth taking kinda depends on how much downtime you are excepted to have. If you’ve got a lot of downtime (and a decent supply of spare gold, either through adventuring and/or the ´Earn an Income’ activity, by yourself and team members) then the feats can be pretty good. More so if you know what may be coming up when your group decides to go on there next adventure (as you can start tailoring your crafting towards the needs of that adventure.) It basically becomes a way to better fit/supply your group with less gold spent, in exchange for time. Also, it can be helpful if the items on sale are limited (for example, higher level items may be more difficult to obtain from the market, but as long as you have the formula, there is nothing stopping you from making it.)

If however you find you do not have a lot of downtime, then these feats become fairly weak to mostly useless. In order for you to both craft items, and at prices cheaper then market, it takes time, and without it, your not making/getting any value from these feats. The other (less common) problem is if you have downtime but not access to materials (ie you have downtime, but it’s on a ship that does not posses the materials you need, for example) There is also the possible problem of the difficulty of obtaining formulas (which can be solved with the Inventor feat later on, but that does mean more time is needed, and further feat investment to solve.)

Ultimately, wether these types of feats are the most powerful feats in the game, or a waste of space, is going to be dependant on the campaign setting and theme, and most importantly the DM.

Zwordsman wrote:

as a random sidenote.

if one is a goblin bard. I suppose you could combo Goblin Song + Dirdge and/or Intimidate to fish for crits too.

Does anyone know if goblin song which gives a -1 status penalty to Will saves stacks with Frightened -1 status penalty to all checks?

"You can have circumstance penalties, status penalties, and sometimes

They would not stack, unfortunately for the purposes of the Will save, as they are both statues pens to the same thing.

Depending on your play style, if MAP is a concern with your Trip attacks, you may what to look into the 'Assurance' skill feat for Athletics {assuming you are increasing your prof for Athletics.} While using it negates any bonuses {ie, items, spells ect} you have, it also negates any pens as well {including MAP, which could overall provide a bonus.}. It can also mean you can 'assuredly' trip less power enemies, {as what you 'roll' will never change, so if you can trip them once with 'Assurance' you can always trip them} which could save yourself and the party resources, which could be used for greater threats. It can also work with 'Dirge of Doom', as 'Assurance' only affects you, not the pens your foes are suffering.

Also, while I would definitely would not rely on it, your whip allows your to 'Disarm' at a distance. To truly disarm a foe, you would need to crit success your check {making it unreliable} but it can be devastating when it does work {ie, knock the holy symbol out of the hands of the opposing cleric for example.}

EDIT= If your DM is a bit generous with the 'Aid' action, they may allow the use of something like 'Performance' as you attempt to distract the foe with a scathing comedic comment, lowering there defenses at just the right time, giving your friend a bonus to hit. {ie " Thou are a ruttish milk-livered minnow. A sanctimonious ill-nurtured malt-horse. A gleekiing idle-headed withered-hag. So sit thine traitorous toad-spotted malt-worm behind down, because you just got Shakespeared son. <insults were acquired from a Shakespearean Insults Generator.> The bonus for your Performance is most likely better then something like your whip, and will most likely have a better prof, which can give better bonuses if you crit the aid check.

Foil Senses, if you are fully investing into Stealth, is an excellent feat to have. It basically means you do not have to worry about preparing for special senses that may detect you otherwise {smell, hearing, creatures whom can sense heartbeats ect.). This also means you do not need to worry about finding out if a creature has a special sense that could find you, at least for the purposes of them locating you with it. {ie, its useless to prepare against smell, if the creature actually senses heartbeats.}

One thing to note {in general because I've seen this happen once in game}, this does not mean you can no longer be detected by special senses, it means your automatically taking precautions against these senses. {basically, a low Stealth roll can still get you found.)

Knowledge checks can be very dependent on DM, both in what they offer, and if you could use it ask specific questions. Depending on the DM, you may also try using Perception to see if the creature is not fully relying on its sense of sight {a creature whom keeps twitching there ears towards sound my indicate they use there hearing to some degree, or if you see there nose twitching, they may also be using smell.)

If Silence Level 2 is part of your spell repertoire, and you use Esoteric Polymath to prepare 'Silence', then your Silence spell temporarily becomes a signature spell. {meaning you can use any Level 2 or higher slots to cast Silence, and if you use a Level 4 slot or higher, you gain its heightened effects.)

If its not part of your spell repertoire, then you would need to prepare it as a Level 4 spell [or higher] using Esoteric Polymath, if you want the 4th level version effects.

Edit= It can temporarily add one additional spell to your spell repertoire, if the spell not already on it OR temporary make one spell that is on your repertoire a signature spell.